Marine Teamwork
Macguyvok
Godlike Fuzzydice Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16162Members
Godlike Fuzzydice Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16162Members
<div class="IPBDescription">An essential part to a daily diet....</div> I'm not sure if this is the "appropriate" place for this, but I'll ask the admins to condone it, since I feel this is important enought to be discussed in the Gerneal Forum, and not in the S&I thread, since most ppl stop off in General to read runoff from Beta, which is what this is.
That being said, I'd like to address the Teamwork issue with marines. In essance, we have a problem here. Marines, which Flay has said over and over again are teambased, in essance are not. Marined have no real reasons to stay in groups, nor do they have any specific goals that make them Want to stay in groups. My question to the Masses is this, How can we help NS become more like FLay's dream, where Marines all act as a group, and stick together? It's a tall order, but something has to be done.
I think that squadding is a step in the right direction. IF squadding is improved, so you can tell whose in you're squad, then maybe this will bring some of it to NS... but I really don't know. I think we should try to figure out why Marines play so much more like aliens, and tend to shy away from groups......
That being said, I'd like to address the Teamwork issue with marines. In essance, we have a problem here. Marines, which Flay has said over and over again are teambased, in essance are not. Marined have no real reasons to stay in groups, nor do they have any specific goals that make them Want to stay in groups. My question to the Masses is this, How can we help NS become more like FLay's dream, where Marines all act as a group, and stick together? It's a tall order, but something has to be done.
I think that squadding is a step in the right direction. IF squadding is improved, so you can tell whose in you're squad, then maybe this will bring some of it to NS... but I really don't know. I think we should try to figure out why Marines play so much more like aliens, and tend to shy away from groups......
Comments
I do agree that the MArines play like aliens, and the aliens play like aliens.... Must make the game difficult to ballance....
Unfortunately, on pubs you will most often find "silent comms" who give no waypoints, speak no orders, and only talk with the team to ask what kind of toys they would like next. When commanders do not function as leaders, each individual marine is forced to try and guess what he can best do for the team. There can be no unified action in this environment.
Good commanders and Bad commanders will continue to both exist in 1.1, and they will be the biggest factor influencing teamwork. Squads will simply make it a bit easier to be a Good commander.
There has to be a fine balance between a marine being competent enough on his own but deadly in a squad! There has to be a subtly forced mechanism to promote this. In all honestly without a REASON to be close together in a squad you will ALWAYS find people wandering off which destroys marine teamplay. (we are all guilty of it)
You have to instill the mindset to stay close to your squad. Make the marine think twice about going to rambo or Even going to flank to help his squad.
Some form of bonus system has to be implemented... The most logical and fitting is a morale system represented by a meter on the hud. The marine has a base level of morale when he is alone. This goes up when the marine is in the presence of other marines - and maybe even more if he is near the SQUAD he was assigned to by the commander Because the marine knows he is doing his job by being where he is meant to. This will greatly improve the importance of squads and staying around other marines.
It could even be implemented that when a marine is around a base/outpost he gets a morale advantage as he is in 'Familiar Territory'. As an addition he could receive a little more morale when he has a turret factory/turrets around too as he knows he's not the sole line of defence.
Now onto how morale affects the marine. Morale is all about confidence or lack of it. It's an extremely important factor in battle, and very much life itself. When you have a high morale you have more confidence which promotes greater concentration and resilence.
Therefore the 2 attributes that can be upgraded are the Spray of the Guns (cone of fire) and resistance to damage. It's not so much that your not being damaged the same amount - it's the fact that your adrenaline is so high, and your so confident that You will keep on fighting! Also - because your concentration is higher you can possibly dodge some damage from attacks. As for aim - your concentration is much higher when you are confident, resulting in less swaying of the gun and a sharper cone of fire.
In summary....
Add a marine Morale Meter system that has a base level when marines are alone.
Marines nearby, Being near your squad, being near structures (base/output), being near defense structures (turrets/electrified res & tf) ALL up the marine morale.
Maybe introduce a hard cap on morale.
Maybe make the 'alone' marine with base level morale a bit weaker and have a larger cone of fire to balance out the higher killing power of squads with a morale system and base defenders with a morale system.
Morale will affect marines by producing a tighter cone of fire on weapons (not sure on system for GL, but it's a squad weapon primarily anyway) due to higher confidence/concentration.
Morale will also affect marines by reducing damage due to concentration(evading attacks) and resilience(high adrenaline to keep the marine fighting)
It's food for thought, and it's not a 1.1 thing (1.2 maybe?). But I think this system successfully addresses the need for 'skill' on the marine squad wanted by the Veterans as well as the 'teamplay' element of the marines that are wanted by Flayra, Devs and Playtesters. It also has justifiable real-world reasons behind it (which I think are important in a game).
As a joke of course, i dont really mean this. However, the punishment should be the same: you face grave danger alone, and should not stray far from your squadies lest you be pulled into the shadows kicking and screaming; only to be silence shortly after with a satisfying *CRrruUnNCHch* <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
WhoooO! that gave <i>me</i> a mental picture! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
PS: good ideas THAU. though, it should be scaled to marine players currently playing. having a 5v5 game would make the marines too atrophied, as the 4 would have to get everywhere w/o losing a 25% in moral. (commander shouldn't be included in the calcuations)
I remembe when I used to play in a clan, our tactic was simply 1 dedicates in go capping rts while the rest rambo and gorge hunt. It really is impossible for an uncarapaced skulk to do a **** most of the time. And by the time they do get carapace, too late, jp hmgs are done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally feel that a bunch of ramboing marines who can shoot can overpower any aliens at any time. Why? Because marines have such an advantage early game, they will keep the aliens inside their little hive while bringing down the gorge again and again making it not even funny. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your making the common mistake of thinking in 1.04 terms.
Not to sound concided but I have a lot of friends who say im a pretty damn good comm (I only loose a game when my team doesnt have faith in my plan of action and doesn jump too it)
I can be a little agressive like "GO guys go move the **** out of the spawn"
one thing the NS team needs to understand is a lan or a beta is not the same as a public server (I usually play on the servers team funs alergic reaction, lgso etc...)
I enjoy commanding when me and my friend killorlive (sier gotte to others) play because hes a good grunt and im a good comm.
A lot of the time though theres just a lot of DUMB **** players on the marine team who like to run around like jack ****. I swear I scream the order at them even calling out there name and they dont listen so I say "F8ck it you guys are on your own, you dont want to listen thats fine then you do what YOU think is right" an usually they loose. Usually when I play a game and Im not commander the team looses. I kinda act like a field commander to help the commander out. I try to keep the team just that, a team.
guys in real warfare the reason men do stay together is for a few reasons.
A. There in a dangorous situation and they have almost no choice if they wish to succeed.
B. They have bondand together.
C. they're friends (this one counts in NS , a lot of people dont like me because im agressive about it. But sometimes agressive commanding is the only way to go.)
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
ie: solo marine stays as is.
+1 squady = +x% increase accuracy or sommit...
because often sending solo marines is a viable tactic say, to go secure a distant res... isn't fair if he has to die. also, think of a 6 v 6 clan game
1 comm, so 5 marines. a group of 2 and 3? or 2 x 2's and a solo? 2 groups, one of 2, and one of 3, considering the way i like to comm, wouldn't be enough. i prefer at least 3 groups... but hey. nevermind O_o
can't wait to try the squad system though :-o
May be it is a bit different with the upgraded skulks in1.1 and the lack of b..hopping, but a lone marine can still run around, build RTs (list3en from time to time) and own incoming lonely skulks.
IMO aliens sc´hould use squad tactics too, I dont like it when people say, that aliens are supposed to rambo: IT IS NOT TRUE. Aliens are far stronger if they fight together and combine "arms" (lerk, fade, gorge - skulk, gorge, lerk combos)
Maybe dangerous skulks change marine behaviour to some extent, because they really should have a chance only in groups, thats why they have shottys and stuff for early game, to keep a squad alive.
mfg
lance
Honestly, I say we tip the scales in the Aliens favor, give the Marines some new gizmo's, and try some tactics with 'em. If we can show that marines win against aliens with teamwork, but lose without it, I think the game will be perfect. I honestly don't want marines to win unless they have good teamwork!
I'd rather not see an artificial morale system - just tweak values around to make an effective counter system.
im just curious is all...
im just curious is all... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grenade launcher, for one. *skulks skitters out of range before it goes off.. Fades... well... don't*
edit: You know, I just had a radical thought. I know why aliens show more teamwork than Marines. <i>Hivesight.</i> Think about it, the aliens can see where each other is, and they know when soemthing's under attack. Marines have no idea where the "group" is, and if you don't know the maps well, asking is next to useless.
I know, right now you're thinking, <i>Oh no, not another Marine Hivesight idea!</i> Don't worry, Marines should not have hivesight. However, I think the minimaps should be re-worked, and should have the following options:
o Shows "self" and "orients" to the direction the player's facing. (aka, up is always what's infront og you, and the map rotates as you rotate)
o Shows other Marines (Maybe Blue Circle)
o Shows other Marines under attack (Maybe Red Circle)
Keep in mind, it doesn't show buildings, or buildings under attack, and this is all in the minimap, not in the HUD. I bet that these changes would make marines tend to stick together A LOT more.
I wasn't recommending a real nerfing of marines who were 'alone' - maybe a slightly less accurate cone of fire. Anything to FORCE teamwork on the marine side will be welcome.
*edit* Clicked submit prematurely <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So we are talking about public gaming.
In public, marines always win if they play a team. Its all up to if there is a competent commander. Thats all it needs. There just are so many commanders with no common sense at all it makes me cry. But if marines grouped up and acted well WITHOUT commander even spending time to get it done, marines would win 110% of the games where they play as a team, not the 99% it is now.
Aliens win pubbies when rines go solo. Since they do it so much, the game is somewhat balanced. So imo, at leaset now, marine grouping would be cool for marines but aliens would rip grey hair off their heads not only when there is a competent commander, but always!
-Tark
IIRC, it couldn't be implemented for technical reasons, unfortunately
im just curious is all...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a poor example hehe. New one: shotgun is better than LMG at killing skulks, but the LMG is better at taking out a lerk. Stuff like that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra has stated he doesn't like hard counters such as one weapon being specific versus one type of creature but useless versus others so the likelihood is minimal.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These aren't hard counters. I'm just saying that the soft counters should be a bit harder - they need to be more emphasized so that even the dumbest marines get the point that they can't use the HMG for everything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In public, marines always win if they play a team. Its all up to if there is a competent commander. Thats all it needs. There just are so many commanders with no common sense at all it makes me cry. But if marines grouped up and acted well WITHOUT commander even spending time to get it done, marines would win 110% of the games where they play as a team, not the 99% it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The key is to encouraging marines to work together and punish them for ramboing. It shouldn't just be the commanders job - it makes it too difficult for the average person (or even above average person) to comm. It takes good social skills, great strategy, and good micro to be a good commander. Maybe the "good social skill" should be left out because it's difficult enough for the commander to juggle the other two. NS is a challenging game from the commander's perspective.
I remembe when I used to play in a clan, our tactic was simply 1 dedicates in go capping rts while the rest rambo and gorge hunt. It really is impossible for an uncarapaced skulk to do a **** most of the time. And by the time they do get carapace, too late, jp hmgs are done. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 1.1, the aliens can opt for early lvl 3 evolutions - like, in about ... eh, 20 sec to evolve to gorge, spam a DC, build it in 15sec, total about 35 sec?
No more early marine domination - if the aliens are willing to pay the price.
How about decreasing the number of people who will insult a comm just because he does something different...
Or how about making it easier for new people to learn to comm (again, stop lamers insulting)
A place where experienced people (griefers) can't/won't join... (combination decent admins, effective banning)
A completed (and apparently it's being worked on) training player map.
Continued work on the excellent bots and more servers (marked as such) catering to having these bots running..
Really, it's up to all of us in the community to make sure new players thrive...
Good commanders come from environments where people can learn..
I'm moving at the end of July and will be setting up a safe haven for new players (or even good players) who want to play a "real" game of NS.. I know such servers exist already but getting new players to come there can be a chore.. Also I find most people (once they find out a server has "certain" rules) stop going to them ..
but by using a combination of bots, and clearly pointing out the purpose of the server then maybe we can culture new players..
just some thoughts