Eu Constitution

MonsieurEvil · December 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">SNAFU</div> <a href='http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/031214154609.qblfe7ov' target='_blank'>http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/031214154609.qblfe7ov</a>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Blame game rages after collapse of EU summit

14 December 2003
ATTENTION - REPLACES scheduled EU-constitution-press ///
The blame game was in full swing Sunday as acrimony engulfed Europe following the collapse of a weekend summit without a deal on a historic constitution for the EU.

Various villains were put forward for casting -- Poland and Spain on one side, France and Germany on the other, and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi for his handling of the summit.

The keynote of the reactions across Europe was regret that the EU had blown a chance to get its house in order ahead of its biggest expansion yet, with 10 more countries due to join the 15-nation bloc next May.

But in Britain at least, the eurosceptic press was gleeful.

"Now the leaders should realise that their dream of a United States of Europe is dead," the News of the World said, praising Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller for taking a hardline stance.

The summit's collapse was "a great day for the people of Europe", the tabloid added, a view not shared by most.

"It seems to be a re-run of so many other summits which didn't go so well, but this time a devastating bomb has fallen on the edifice of Europe," Italian commentator Franco Venturini wrote in the Corriere della Sera.

The summit foundered on the demands of Miller and his Spanish counterpart, Jose Maria Aznar, to retain the disproportionate voting weights their countries secured in the EU's Nice Treaty of 2000.

For their part the French and German leaders, Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schroeder, refused to countenance any extension to the Nice arrangements.

Instead, they battled for a new system foreseen in the draft constitution which would sweep away national voting weights in favour of a simpler "double majority" to make decisions in the enlarged EU.

The Polish leader came in for particular criticism from several summit participants for adopting a "Nice or death" negotiating stance that precluded all possibility of compromise.

"Schroeder asked Miller point blank in their one-on-one, whether he would be able to agree to anything. He said no," said one EU diplomat.

French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche said: "Spain and Poland can be put on the stand for having blown up any chance of compromise."

But the Poles were having none of it, and neither were the Spanish.

"Poland put its position in a proud, firm way," Marek Borowski, Speaker of the Polish lower house of parliament said.

"Spain is not guilty for the failure of Brussels. Chirac rejected in advance any compromise... and if you are looking for the most inflexible country, it is France," commented Spanish newspaper El Mundo.

For others, however, Berlusconi was the real villain of the piece. The colourful leader arrived in Brussels assuring everyone he had an "ace in his pocket", but in the end produced only a joker.

After months of constitutional talks, the Italian EU presidency only came up with compromise proposals on the charged issue of voting rights late on Saturday morning. Two hours later, the summit had collapsed.

"The negotiations didn't even begin, Mr. Berlusconi," Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende told the maverick billionaire, according to diplomats.

Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper said: "Instead of presenting us with the promised compromise, (Berlusconi) simply put empty shells on the table."

But analysts said that singling out the Italian leader would be unfair.

"Perhaps the Italians should have tabled their proposals earlier," said Kirsty Hughes of the Centre for European Policy Studies.

"But I'm not sure we can blame the Italians for not fully grasping what's been going on in Poland. Their pro-Nice rhetoric has been so stark -- what presidency could solve that problem?"

Text and Picture Copyright © 2003 AFP. All other copyright © 2003 EUbusiness Ltd. All rights reserved. This material is intended solely for personal use. Any other reproduction, publication or redistribution of this material without the written agreement of the copyright owner is strictly forbidden and any breach of copyright will be considered actionable.
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<a href='http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=3989053' target='_blank'>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?t...storyID=3989053</a>
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3317535.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3317535.stm</a>

I'd be most interested in hearing the opinions of Europeans on this first, as after all it is your, eh, 'U'. <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> I'll ring in later.

Nemesis_Zero · December 2003

I'm torn between anger at the Polnish president ("I won't accept any decision that weakens my nation." - thanks man, bloody <i>thanks</i>) and mild happiness as this might open the opportunity of a true public discussion of the constitution, something nobody seemed to be inclined to allow so far.

Anyway, as I stated in numerous threads before, the EU is in my opinion still in the process of societally uniting, so a joint constitution would've run into the danger of being superficial at any rate.

MonsieurEvil · December 2003

And that's it. No one else is going to say anything? All these euros in here, and not one of you cares about your constitution?

Snidely · December 2003

I don't actually have much to say apart from, "Ha ha ha ha ha". ;D

That_Annoying_Kid · December 2003

Nemzero is the old european, maybe his voice is the generall concencius, or maybe people just don't care enough...

I personally think that the EU needs to kick back for a bit and then make the constitution

MonsieurEvil · December 2003

Well if all the EU constituents don't care here, stands to reason the politicos don't either. Yeesh. Maybe Dread will weigh in...

Snidely · December 2003

Well, in all seriousness, there doesn't seem much to talk about. The members of the EU falling out isn't groundbreaking news.

Dread · December 2003

My opinion? Sh*t happens. They'll get it done some other time then. Politicians always get all worked up over this stuff. Constitution, new members, EUF, Russia being bad, US going after another rogue nation or mid-east closing its oil-pumps. You have to give them room to fight and in the end, no matter if it takes a month or 10 years, they'll get it done, eventually. Mons, you just have to understand that it's hard for these people to agree on anything. Though, I do have to admit that it would've been great to see EU constitution becoming alive.

And who needs Poland anyway? Guess who is NOT going to get part of his EU defence when new Soviet Union starts invading eastern-block again <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Edit: Sorry Monse, if this doesn't make me incredibly sad or if this isn't even unexpected. I know you were waiting for great fuss over this <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

MonsieurEvil · December 2003

Hmmmm... we seems to have a disconnect every time a Euro issue comes up. Suddenly, it gets very quiet in here. Part of that is that most people here are Americans and not as familiar with the area, but I also think that the natives are unhappy to talk about issues in that arena. Either that or spectacularly uninterested (quite possible, after the Czech EU referendum recently that barely got enough voter turnout to qualify). A double standard in my mind, but pretty noticeable.

However, that is neither here nor there - this is pretty important stuff, and certainly more worthy of conversation of half the crap we 'discuss' in here on a daily basis. From what I can tell from these news posts (after all, I am one of those Americans, looking for info from you euros), half of the EU hates the other half and is basically calling them recalcitrant ****. Is this constitution just a paper tiger anyways, leading to the lackadaisical responses here? The British papers were quite snide about the whole thing, basically saying 'let all those continental wanks eat cake' in so many words. And the theme of the French saying everyone is against them and it's not their fault repeats.

I dunno, our Constitution here was rather a big deal. Maybe I'm misreading european understanding about theirs...

Edit: to clarify, if we had some US Constitutional ammendment under way to do something or another, there'd be 500 posts by now if it succeeded/failed. The subject matter alone would be controversial, even without any results.

Dread · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 14 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I dunno, our Constitution here was rather a big deal. Maybe I'm misreading european understanding about theirs... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Heh, you needed a constitution. We already have ours, we are just thinking of renewing it so that many nations can group under the new one. There's no particular rush, we just need to be patient and maybe someday, slowly, our leaders start to understand each other better. Unification is a slow motion process but we're getting there. Same currency 2002, constitution 2003(/4?), new members 2004, EU president 2006(?), organized EUF 2010(?). I don't know but I think EU will work out in the end. You're always thinking negatively and all but I think EU is going to be pretty tight still in your lifetime. Or at least in mine <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

And the Brits have been a pain in the butt and all the way against this for so long. It's like they think french and germans want to take an advantage of their perfect Island. Dahm brits <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Edit: to clarify, if we had some US Constitutional ammendment under way to do something or another, there'd be 500 posts by now if it succeeded/failed. The subject matter alone would be controversial, even without any results.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

We are not feeling EU-patriotic enough to care about our own business <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> It's sad but probably true too. And you can't much comment on this thing anyway.

Epidemic · December 2003

Well, the EU is a theater, or atleast people (I) sometimes think so.
But I doubt any people would have expected they would reach some sort of agreement as long as we have people as Berluscino,Chirac and Shröder in the seat.

Snidely · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 14 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> However, that is neither here nor there - this is pretty important stuff, and certainly more worthy of conversation of half the crap we 'discuss' in here on a daily basis. From what I can tell from these news posts (after all, I am one of those Americans, looking for info from you euros), half of the EU hates the other half and is basically calling them recalcitrant ****. Is this constitution just a paper tiger anyways, leading to the lackadaisical responses here? The British papers were quite snide about the whole thing, basically saying 'let all those continental wanks eat cake' in so many words. And the theme of the French saying everyone is against them and it's not their fault repeats. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That seems to about sum it up.

The feeling I get here in Britain (only from my perspective) is that Europe is something only our politicans really care for. Stuff like the Maastricht Treaty (which John Major rammed through Parliament), and the fact that Blair doesn't want a referendum on Europe (because we'll say "no") repels the general public. It's not that I hate the continentals (I don't), it's the fact that this has been forcefed to us.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And the Brits have been a pain in the butt and all the way against this for so long. It's like they think french and germans want to take an advantage of their perfect Island. Dahm brits <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Feel free to cut us loose. ;D

aaarrrgh · December 2003

MonsE, I do guess it would have been quite differently if this was on a european forum.

I'll also honestly admit that I've not followed the issue that much because I have to hand in this huuuuuge uni assignment in a few days (hell, I shouldn't even be typing this. But meh, that's life). Aaaaanyway, back to the issue:

From what little I've seen / heard, I don't think that Poland are to be blamed in this case. They took a stand, and while I do not fully agree with it, I think it would have been unfair to do something that, eventually, would have been against their will. In fact, I'm rather happy that someone small finally stood up and had their way.

Other than that, I can't really comment on this issue. At least not right now. Sorry for the vague answers.

Immacolata · December 2003

You would not at this point provoke a heated debate about the EU constitution for the simple reason that it's rather new. We aren't spoon fed the constitution as a holy relic from childhood that we worship. Perhaps we need a bit of that!

I view the attempt at the constitution as a kind of reverse building of the house of EU. Let's begin with the roof! Then sooner or later the members will think of building walls to support it. The economic foundation is still being laid.

Now, I cannot really be MAD at the polish president. He is acting a bit too cocky for his nation's own good, but also I can see that Poland will be a major player in EU in times come, merely based on that country's size. Nice to see the French get some of their own medicine <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

The real problem is, the constitution tries to weaken some member countries while keeping others powerful, or more. It's largely unfair in my opinion. Hard to swallow, and Poland probably has more to win by being so uncompromising currently than not. Frankly, we need a better draft. And as Nemze says: perhaps we will get a discussion. Unfortunately the danes, at least, seems indifferent to the EU constitution. As if EU is still "something down there in Bruxelles - what does that concern us?".

Now, we have a system that works presently. Why go through all these pains to change the system? To make EU work better once the extension is completed, they say. Oh, really. By giving Germany and France all the weight? They already ****ed us over good when they didnt want to play by their own rules. I believe the deal made in regard to the euro currency dictated sanctions towards countries that did not follow the economic rules for debt etc. France breaks them and they say "Hey, sometimes you need to break the rules!". GG, jerks!

It's shennanigans like that which weakens confidence, if there is any, and definitely interest in the EU project. I believe it would be in order to think out hard another way to play the game before the constitution is enacted. Less "We play our national interests" and more "we do this in consensus". Remove the veto rights of any country would help a lot.

[edit:] removing veto right and instating majority decisions by vote is actually proposed in the now burned draft.

I guess they were pretty much in agreement except for the weighting of voting.

MonsieurEvil · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 14 2003, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You're always thinking negatively and all but I think EU is going to be pretty tight still in your lifetime. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Actually, I'm a very positive thinker in general. Certainly not about the EU typically, though. You, however, are the generally negative one. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> Almost a legend here in that regard, honestly!

I do find it very interesting (and it was a hot topic when I was last in London) that the Brits are so anti-EU. Especially since aren't they a founding member? There was certainly no love lost in the Telegraph article about the Constitution. It certainly doesn't sound like many of the EU members were terribly thrilled about the currency issue for example, and that's certainly less of a hotbutton than a constitution (again - at least it would be here in the US; I'm unclear on the EU take on the matter). Didn't a lot of the countries fail to convert currency this year out of choice?

Immacolata · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 14 2003, 11:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I do find it very interesting (and it was a hot topic when I was last in London) that the Brits are so anti-EU. Especially since aren't they a founding member? There was certainly no love lost in the Telegraph article about the Constitution. It certainly doesn't sound like many of the EU members were terribly thrilled about the currency issue for example, and that's certainly less of a hotbutton than a constitution (again - at least it would be here in the US; I'm unclear on the EU take on the matter). Didn't a lot of the countries fail to convert currency this year out of choice?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Not sure why the brits are so anti-EU. Perhaps they too don't like the notion of being forced under the strange french inspired bureaucracy system. Thats what scares me at least. Perhaps they're just strange islanders with no sense of rationale.

As for the EU currency: UK, Denmark, Norway and Sweden are out of the EU currency by choice. The doomsday trumpets where blasting: you will die a terrible death for not joining. It turns out we did fine anyways. And rest of europe just got higher prices from converting.

Dread · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Dec 14 2003, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> As for the EU currency: UK, Denmark, Norway and Sweden are out of the EU currency by choice. The doomsday trumpets where blasting: you will die a terrible death for not joining. It turns out we did fine anyways. And rest of europe just got higher prices from converting.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
We did? I didn't notice at least. Besides, I think Euro is cool. I don't understand why those afore mentioned countries didn't go for the Euro but whatever makes you happy.

Btw, the death is coming afterwards, you traitors! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Snidely · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 14 2003, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I do find it very interesting (and it was a hot topic when I was last in London) that the Brits are so anti-EU. Especially since aren't they a founding member? There was certainly no love lost in the Telegraph article about the Constitution.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Nah, Britain joined in 1973.

The Telegraph is fiercely anti-EU, by the way. <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk' target='_blank'>The Guardian</a> or Independant wold probably give a fairer look at it.

Immacolata · December 2003

I found this link to BBC World's site on the eu constitution

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm</a>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><@MonsieurEvil> It's like you asked clippy about it... 'It looks like you're trying to form a pan-european Constitution! Would you like to a) ratify b) ammend c) bicker?"</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Anyways! read.

Immacolata · December 2003

I came to think, that EU problem is, we have already fleshed out a continent of states and cultures. So superimposing a constitution is really hard since you have to make a lot of compromises to suit a lot of different minds. Top dowh!

The US was created bottom up. Constitution was made while the state was young and smaller, then extended under the condition that everyone would follow the constitution. So a lot less bickering about trite details perhaps.

MonsieurEvil · December 2003

Interestiiinnggggg!!! There's a little snippet here that should interest Dread and his constant 'the EU has no foreign policy' quibbles:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>THE "FOREIGN MINISTER"

What is proposed?

"The European Council, deciding by qualified majority, with the agreement of the president of the Commission, shall appoint the Union's foreign minister. He shall conduct the Union's common foreign and security policy." </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You've been hiding this from me all along!!!

This is packed full of intersting stuff. BBL, gonna digest all this. Cool link, Immac.

Immacolata · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Dec 15 2003, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Interestiiinnggggg!!! There's a little snippet here that should interest Dread and his constant 'the EU has no foreign policy' quibbles:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>THE "FOREIGN MINISTER"

What is proposed?

"The European Council, deciding by qualified majority, with the agreement of the president of the Commission, shall appoint the Union's foreign minister. He shall conduct the Union's common foreign and security policy." </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You've been hiding this from me all along!!!

This is packed full of intersting stuff. BBL, gonna digest all this. Cool link, Immac.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Why yes, we try to deceive our irate but generally backwards US "Friends" into passivity <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

I think it is for the same reason that there has been talks about a unified EU defense outside of the NATO pact. USA really resist talk of any such nonsense.

The only big gripe there seems to be is not that, but the voting rights, and the amount of commissioners for each nation. It is already creating a big segregation from the get-go. We will allow you in. But you cannot sit at the table. Because you smell. You must eat in the kitchen with the staff. Untill we are sure you do not blag our silverware and feel up on the maidens.

aaarrrgh · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Dec 14 2003, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Besides, I think Euro is cool. I don't understand why those afore mentioned countries didn't go for the Euro but whatever makes you happy. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Purely off topic, but hey: I could actually turn it around. Let the question be: Why did the other countries actually join the whole euro thing? This may sound harsh but: Because they didn't have a choice.

I remember there being a survey shortly before the currency was changed in most of EU's countries, and what struck me as interesting was the fact that 2 out of 3 germans asked, were against the euro. And there were supposedly similar numbers in France. Yet, we've only seen elections about it in Sweden And Denmark. The rest never had a choice.

Having said that, I'll also admit that I'm not necessarily against the euro. I just find it incredibly interesting. And it's also why I don't think that Europe is ready for these kind of changes. Yet.

(then again, with a EU citizenship we'll get rid of all the old men and women in Denmark, since they'll probably move to Spain and live under the sun. Can't blame them either. But hey, less to support! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>)

MonsieurEvil · December 2003

Finally worked my way through all this. Very interesting stuff, and rather unbelievable in some sections. The Reform of Condition is quite amazing - did France, germany, etc. honestly believe that the junior member states would agree to this? It's the equivalent of California and New York telling Florida that they can join the union, pay taxes, contribute to defense, but that their senators are only allowed to quietly watch on capitol hill and not vote. And these yabbos have the audacity to complain that these (literally) disenfranchised states aren't properly grateful for their lack of rights. Amazing.

Between this, the Legal Supremecy rules, defense, and foreign policy, I think that they should simply knock off the charade that the Constitution is even worth talking about yet. The UK alone is going to oppose just about all of this, and the junior states right behind them. It's the equivalent of trying to build a skyscraper and starting with the 80th floor! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

From what I can tell, the EU is really France and Germany. Your states need to learn a lesson the 13 original colonies here did - you have to compromise, and often in favor of the little guys, in order to have a union. As Ben Franklin said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately". That lesson has obviously not yet been learned, 230 years later...

RyoOhki · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>From what I can tell, the EU is really France and Germany. Your states need to learn a lesson the 13 original colonies here did - you have to compromise, and often in favor of the little guys, in order to have a union. As Ben Franklin said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately". That lesson has obviously not yet been learned, 230 years later... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

It's an interesting anaology, and correct in more ways than one. Looking at the 13 colonies, what was self-evident to the Founding Fathers was that if each of the colonies remained seperate, external forces such as the nations of Europe would be able to gain considerable influence over individual states, as alone each state wasn't powerful enough to stand up to European power. Only combined could the colonies hope to provide a challange to European power and remain independant.

Turning to Europe, you can see that for much of the period between 1500 and 1945, individual European nations such as Britian, France and Germany have generally been strong enough to resist external pressures on their own. However, with the rise of the United States, the challange in Asia from China, Japan and Taiwan and the large scale removal of former colonial empires, the nations of Europe are now faced with a situation very much like the 13 colonies: either they band together, or external forces will dominate them, economically if not politically. In fact, they've been facing this challange for the past 50 odd years, and if they don't come together soon, Europe will eventually be relegated to the backwater that it was during the Dark Ages.

Dread · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aaarrrgh @ Dec 15 2003, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Purely off topic, but hey: I could actually turn it around. Let the question be: Why did the other countries actually join the whole euro thing? This may sound harsh but: Because they didn't have a choice.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I was all excited about Euro. Lots of good stuff like no need to change currencies when travelling inside EU and Euros course has been climbing pretty steadily all the way. Someone care to tell me what's wrong with it?

Immacolata · December 2003

These days, the doomsayers make a quick buck around these parts <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

We are all on the same page however. The proposal that there will be two classes of citizens in EU is outrageous from the get go. Unfortunately it was the only way you could get the sceptical states to agree to an expansion. Such as Spain, Greece, who reap major farming subsidies from EU. They feared they'd have to share their wellfare cheque with the new kids on the block, such as Poland that has a HUGE farming sector that is quite antiquated - I hear you can still find peasants with horse ploughs, for instance. It is going to be a boom economy and it will hurt.

The more finicky stuff such as you call a charade, however, is actually the REAL important stuff. That is the way you make for a union. But for now, we agree. Aim a wee bit lower lest your artillery shells drop right back in your face <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> First, make out how the new members can be treated equally, and stop being such (gallic) ****. Or teutonian PIB's. Or iberian idiots. Realize that we can only make this big people machine run if all the people feel they are equal citizens. And that involves the politicians.

Darn, I feel like Im' gonna write a letter to our newspaper stating all that.

"Dear Sirs,

I find it OUTRAGEOUSLY .... blah blah blah"

Sincerely yours,

Retired major, Montogomery P. Immacolata Winterbottom "

tbZBeAst · December 2003

Hello.

I'm only quiet because I got promoted (again). More money more responsibility, less time yadda yadda.

I'll be taking this one on when I've got a spare moment in my lunch half-hour.

*begins charging bile ducts*

/edit Oh, and as a Brit, I'm a fraction upset that we have one of the smallest economies in the EU (although surprisingly one of the strongest at the moment, PSBR aside) yet we're the thrid highest monetary contributor behind France and Germany. Its not that the majority of us are anti-Europe per se, just anxious that we don't get taken for a ride. I think it still rankles with many that the pound got urinated on to prop up the Franc and Mark during the ERM debacle.

/edit #2 I'm not turning this into an anti-Europe rant.

Immacolata · December 2003

Heh, hi Beast. I get my lunch one hour ahead of you. Nuh-huh! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

UK having a rather small economy is perhaps a thing that could be solved by tying bands with rest of EU harder. Ever thought of that?

I think perhaps we could agree that in order for EU to work, we need the Big Ones, namely France and Germany [1] to make ammends, to swallow some pride and allow other nations a say. The danes have not forgotten the atomic debauchery of the 1990s. The french INSISTED on nuking a poor defenseless atoll with their nuclear bombs. Test purpose they claimed. Needed to develop bombs. Oh really! I think we've long time ago decided that atomic bombs are WAY good enough. So good we dont use them. But in spite of massive protests and pressure from other European countries, they carried out their tests. GG french premier minister! Thats a real solid way to build strong bonds.

I'm getting really worked up here, because I can feel that I am passionate about France. In all the wrong ways. If you want answers to why Europe won't fly, I point my accusing finger at France's politics. They REALLY have to start be more cooperative. I'll go so far as to say the reason that USA and France seems to view each other with such strange hate/love must be because it feels like looking in a mirror <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

<b>Nota bene</b>
It has been claimed that up north, beyond the stretch of the roman empire, we have always been mighty suspicious of all that "latinery". A scientist had reasearched the seemingly unconscious animosity towards the EU. And she found out that generally EU is viewed as the Big Boys project, and that the latin countries tries to force their way of life and bureaucracy down on us. French, italian, spanish, greek and portuguese are generally viewed as less trustworthy and more corrupt than germans, british, belgian, dutch, austrian. Highest ranking in trustworthyness and lowest ranking in "corruptionness" are Scandinavian countries. There might, or might not, be any factual grounds for these opinions, but it is none the less what the scientist found out with a questionnaire.

So, the EU will fly the day the french politicans stop being so arrogant and blatantly nationalist in their conduct. HA! And green flaming monkeys on broomsticks spouts out my ****hole.

Creepie · December 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([tbZ]BeAst @ Dec 15 2003, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Its not that the majority of us are anti-Europe per se, just anxious that we don't get taken for a ride. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
As a Brit, I agree. We're suspicious buggers.

Sometimes, I just take the sod it approach. Let them get on with it. I know I shouldn't but I've got plenty enough to concern myself about in my life without having to deal with some 100 page document about a proposed constitution that only a senior politics professor at Oxford University could understand. Why make it so damn complicated ? If you can't shove it on 4 sides of A4, it ain't worth reading.

On a wider note, I like the idea of the EU. I like the idea of banding together for much the reasons that have already been stated. However, there are simply issues that you feel in your gut should remain under sovereign control. For example, who controls the interest rate that governs how much we pay for our mortgages etc... In Britain, we already have enough problems between the north and south of the country - the interest rate is generally better for one than another. If control over the interest rate was handed from the Bank of England to Europe, we could end up in trouble.

And yes, the telegraph is notoriously right wing (unless hell has frozen over without me noticing). You're much more likely to get a more balanced approach from the Guardian or the Independant. Of course, you could try the Daily Sport ...

Snidely · December 2003

Here's <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1107122,00.html' target='_blank'>The Guardian</a>'s take on it, if anyone cares. I thought it odd that noone seemed to accuse us of wrongdoing, thank God for France eh. ;P

Oh, and something from a couple of weeks back. [<a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/euro/story/0,11306,1094978,00.html' target='_blank'>link</a>].

And an <a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,408196,00.html' target='_blank'>overview</a> of Europe that I found useful.

Eu Constitution

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