Natural selection guides.

Longtooth

<div class="IPBDescription">I wish i didn't have to fill this box.</div>This [guide] idea sounds good to me.  But it seems to much like a closed tight-knit organization to exist in a free world.  What I mean to say is,  there are no applications so what is to stop the people who did not get referred from doning the tag and helping(or misshelping) people as they want?  A more loosley based system like NSF seems more plauslible in a real world.  It is not as though the newbies will check in on the website to see who is a [guide] or not.....Maybe I am just a pecimist.

CMEast

longtooth, if they can help then they'll be doing guide work anyway (and if they are helpers they probably wouldnt be stupid enough to add a fake tag).
If they are idiots then theyll be spotted quickly.

Your right, some will do it but that doesnt mean that the idea is bad. Just that there is always an idiot ready to spoil a good thing.

Bill

In the Opera there was some sort of tag beside the developers names that told you who they were.  Though something like that has already been brought up in the other topic of this very same subject.  BTW, a lot of the NSF memembers have never even played the game yet, so I don't think they'd be very good guides.

Silver_Fox

I'm sure Flayra is making something such as that of The Opera.

It uses WON ID's I believe, so theres little chance of someone being a guide who shouldnt be.

Daxx

All I want to know is...

Will they be going door to door selling cookies?   <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

TychoCelchuuu

Dun worry, it's exclusive, but all worthy people will eventually make it in. Those people know how to do their job right. [/buttkissing]

Nemesis_Zero

Erm... There <i>is</i> an application process, and a lot of thought went into it.

As soon as the game is released, everyone who's willing to [guide] new player may applicate. During the next five days, guides will contact her/him, to find out whether s/he would fit in and takes the whole thing serious.
Then, a vote happens, resulting either in a new guide, or a polite e-mail to the former applicant.

I'm sure guide impersonation will happen from time to time, but a) Flayra is currently thinking of ways to avoid those by hard code, and b) people who feel they've been cheated upon may always visit the guide homepage and complain.
Sgt.Bilko feels currently very lonely and is happy about <i>any</i> mail <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

Flayra

That's a good point, Longtooth.  The problem is, the guides don't want to not help out for the first release, but I don't have time to put in any kind of proper support for them.  It's not a simple task to have this type of authorization and is prone to hacking and cumbersome to update.  Having the guides use some kind of automated CD key switcher could work (so the guides have a group of special keys that NS recognizes, and they use those keys when they're guiding), but switching your CD key is like cheating now: it's an offense that I believe will get you temporarily banned from an authenticated CS or DOD server.

So basically, the system will probably have some problems, but that's not justification for not doing it at all.  I'm sure the guides will help out a lot, and will do way more good then the bad the impersonators will do.  By keeping the application process rigid, it means that if and when a real system goes in to support guides properly, we can be assured they are all high-quality.

Zawath

Im pretty sure that its very easy to spot those dudes who give wrong advices. Even a fool knows that writing "kill" in the console doesn`t give you 1000 rp or you can`t kill a level 5 with a welder

coil

We're not so much worried about things like that... if someone starts giving bad advice, they'll be ignored.

It's the people who put on the guide tag, and then start acting very offensive - swears, heckling, etc.  These people give the guide program a bad name even moreso than the ones who are just trying to mess with newbies.

f3rret

" ... but I don't have time to put in any kind of proper support for them."

So this won't hold up release then. That's all I care to know.

CollateralDamage

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->By keeping the application process rigid, it means that if and when a real system goes in to support guides properly, we can be assured they are all high-quality.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Wishful thinking. You underestimate the number of powerhungry teenagers. They'll do anything to get and use whatever guide-privilege you hardcode.

I have a better idea: hardcode a quiz that only lets people into the game who have studied the manual. Would save us all lots of trouble.   <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

coil

CD, the guides hand-pick new guides.  And guides can certainly lose their guide status for misconduct.

Longtooth

Ah,  coil,  but that is much of what I was pointing out,  how are you going to enforce someones being removed from [guide]?  You can't MAKE them remove thier tag unless they happen to be on one of the [guide] servers.  Also,  what special privlages do [guide]'s get that would make the organization unique from just helpfull players?  I never said it was a bad idea.  I am just not sure about its orchestration.  Without special member privlages of some sort being a member of [guide] is irrelevant and making it so tight knit is useless.  I don't mean to critisize,  just to help.

coil

<!--QuoteBegin--Longtooth+Oct. 03 2002,15:01--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Longtooth @ Oct. 03 2002,15:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah,  coil,  but that is much of what I was pointing out,  how are you going to enforce someones being removed from [guide]?  You can't MAKE them remove thier tag unless they happen to be on one of the [guide] servers.  Also,  what special privlages do [guide]'s get that would make the organization unique from just helpfull players?  I never said it was a bad idea.  I am just not sure about its orchestration.  Without special member privlages of some sort being a member of [guide] is irrelevant and making it so tight knit is useless.  I don't mean to critisize,  just to help.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree... special powers do not a special group make.

NSF is a group who will display their tag as indication that they are teamplayers... there are no special powers granted by being a member of NSF, except the intangible respect from more intelligent players for being team players.

Even if that is how the guides work - just a tag, no special powers - the Guide program can still be very important.  Yes, we're "just helpful players"... but by being part of the Guide program, anyone who sees a Guide will immediately know that he/she is here to answer questions, help out, etc. - and that he/she *knows* the answers to the questions people might have.

I've been told that some mods have a [Dev] tag or somesuch that can only be worn by the actual developers of that mod (as keyed by WON ID), and I would imagine this is reasonably secure... if Flay implemented similar code for the guides, maintaining the "sanctity" of the tag would be simple.  It would even give the Guide program a little more organization; new guides would be recruited shortly before the newest patch was released, when their WON IDs would be added to the list.

Moleculor

"I wish I didn't have to fill this box"

You don't have to.



<!--EDIT|Moleculor|Oct. 03 2002,16:34-->

Longtooth

Nice inverted English.  In this case the powers make the group because otherwise there is nothing unique about the guides and therefore what would it matter to be a [guide]?  Without special powers or imformation anyone feeling helpfull could just slap on the tag and help people and the tight knit organization of the group would not matter.  Also anyone feeling llamaish could slap on the tag and toy with newbies.  You could always make a small server side program that would include the WON ID's of the guides and check names for [guide] and if thier WON ID was not on the list they would be told to change thier name and be booted.  I know there are server side programs that are capable of checking names so I doubt it would be difficult.

Comprox

If you had read what Flayra said, he will be adding some form of support later on the prevent non-guides from using the guide tag. For the first release though, all you have to remember is, if they is acting like a jackass, he is 99.9% of the time NOT a guide.

As for special powers, some ideas have been brought up, like a guide being able to one on one talk with another player, to keep the text just between those two, like a tunnel talk. Other ideas also involve them being able to go into support mode for the commander and showing them the ropes live. Now, these are all ideas, no idea if/when they would be put in or anything like that.

Nemesis_Zero

You seem to get one thing wrong - we <i>don't want</i> any special powers over other players or servers, nor do we try to make the guides become an immense organization.

The whole objective of being in the guides is supposed to be wholly altruistic, which sorts all the powerhungry teenagers out.
The point of the program is giving newbies someone to turn to who they know will listen and answer their question. If other people can also give you the correct answer - great, but if (and this 'if' is very likely) you happen to be on a server full of "STFU, n00b"s, you'll be helluva thankful for the program.

Yes, impersonating may become a problem, but as we've got nothing special, we will possibly not become the target of choice - it's like trying to attack a bald, smiling monk. You know you <i>can</i> do it, but why the hell should you?



<!--EDIT|Nemesis Zero|Oct. 03 2002,18:06-->

Longtooth

I never said special powers over people.  More like imformation.

Nemesis_Zero

If by 'special information', you mean the manual that'll come with every download, you're right.
We'll simply be walking, shooting and biting libaries of NSism. No additional infos.

Comprox

The only people that will know more than us and the avergae gamer is Flay, cause he coded the dang thing <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> Everything that we know, you can find out from the manual or playing. We are just here to guuide ( <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> ) you along as needed when you get stuck.

Moleculor

Except for me, 'cause I know EVERYTHING! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

Longtooth

I didn't want to edit my reply for the third time and confuse anymore people.  But I feel as though words have been put in my mouth.  Where did I say guides should have power over people?  Or where did I say that the guides organization was too small?  My idea of special powers was more along the lines of comprox's.  And Molecular,  I do have to fill that box....it dosen't seem right otherwise.

Nemesis_Zero

You didn't say we <i>should</i>, but by saying that "powerhungry teenagers" could want to get in, you implied we <i>would</i> get special powers. The point about attracting many people was mere rethoric, sorry 'bout that.

Anyway, could you please sum up a last time what you think is wrong about the idea of the guides? 'Cause right now I just don't get what you're basing your argumentation on.



<!--EDIT|Nemesis Zero|Oct. 03 2002,18:25-->

Longtooth

I never said they were wrong or bad.  I was just talking about them and wondering about thier exact operation.  I am mostly just babbling and other people seem inclined to babble back.  Did anyone notice my little babble on the server side program or possible little patch?  Mostly I was thinking without a program to enforce it a better idea would be just for anyone feeling helpfull to slap guide on thier name.

Nemesis_Zero

Ah. Well, in short, it wouldn't, because the guides will actually know what they're talking about, something you can't say about everyone who would slap [guide] at their name.

TychoCelchuuu

I think that he's thinking that since everyone will respect guides (that or yell at them, die, THEN respect them) some dweeb will go "hey, it's like being and admin, but without the banning!" and slap on a guide tag. Then someone will be like "Dude, go help them" and he'll be like IM A GUIDE I DUN HAVE TO N00b LAMER!

Tomodachi

Umm can you admins please maybe add a link on the community page for NSF. I forgot the URL.

Longtooth

Respect?  I said nothing of the sort.  I was saying without something to make them unique why not just let people feeling helpfull slap [guide] on thier name and help people.  You make rules and such as though it is a coveted position when there is nothing that seperates it from a helpfull person.

HBNayr

<!--QuoteBegin--Tomodachi+Oct. 03 2002,21:29--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Tomodachi @ Oct. 03 2002,21:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umm can you admins please maybe add a link on the community page for NSF. I forgot the URL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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