Fade Discussion/suggestion
Church
Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Keep it civil!</div> I've read thru the first 3 pages of the general forum, and the first 2 pages of the Marine, Alien, and Suggestions forum, and I did not find a topic similar to what I will say here, so don't flame me about not searching, etc please.
Today I was playing on H2O-5 server, and some members from TAU were there. It has always been my opinion that Fades are overpowered in 3.x, and I asked one of the TAUs if he thought Fades were overpowered too. Well, he described Fades as "Gods" pretty much.
I always thought the one thing that made Fades overpowered is Blink, and the TAU agreed as well. He suggested that if Blink was switched with Metabolize (so Blink is available on hive2 instead of at hive1) then Fades wouldn't be "the Gods they are now" as he put it.
Instead of being a Heavy with built-in JP, a Fade would become a medium strength assault trooper who would need support to tear up a bunch of marines, instead of now where a single skilled Fade can wreak havoc everywhere and not ever die because Blink is the solution to...everything (marines now no longer have the advantage of range...and this is at hive ONE).
Heck, from what the TAU said aliens don't even go for a second hive anymore in clan matches. All they do is save up for Fade, and then rape the marines.
I agree 100% with the above suggestion of switching Blink with Metabolize. With Meta a Fade can afford not to get regen, and a cara fade is still fairly scary unless you have 2 or more shotgunners in a group.
I also have anotehr idea of my own. If blink must absolutely be kept available at hive one, then why not replace it with the 1.04 Blink? It still allows the Fade to travel great distances in an instant, but it doesn't give the Fade precise control of exactly where he'll end up. I'd prefer Fades to get blink only at hive2, but I'd accept giving Fades a less-powerful blink as well.
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What do you think? Share your opinions! No flames please! Contructive criticism is welcome!
Today I was playing on H2O-5 server, and some members from TAU were there. It has always been my opinion that Fades are overpowered in 3.x, and I asked one of the TAUs if he thought Fades were overpowered too. Well, he described Fades as "Gods" pretty much.
I always thought the one thing that made Fades overpowered is Blink, and the TAU agreed as well. He suggested that if Blink was switched with Metabolize (so Blink is available on hive2 instead of at hive1) then Fades wouldn't be "the Gods they are now" as he put it.
Instead of being a Heavy with built-in JP, a Fade would become a medium strength assault trooper who would need support to tear up a bunch of marines, instead of now where a single skilled Fade can wreak havoc everywhere and not ever die because Blink is the solution to...everything (marines now no longer have the advantage of range...and this is at hive ONE).
Heck, from what the TAU said aliens don't even go for a second hive anymore in clan matches. All they do is save up for Fade, and then rape the marines.
I agree 100% with the above suggestion of switching Blink with Metabolize. With Meta a Fade can afford not to get regen, and a cara fade is still fairly scary unless you have 2 or more shotgunners in a group.
I also have anotehr idea of my own. If blink must absolutely be kept available at hive one, then why not replace it with the 1.04 Blink? It still allows the Fade to travel great distances in an instant, but it doesn't give the Fade precise control of exactly where he'll end up. I'd prefer Fades to get blink only at hive2, but I'd accept giving Fades a less-powerful blink as well.
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What do you think? Share your opinions! No flames please! Contructive criticism is welcome!
Comments
Pulic beta discussion, 3rd topic from the top <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What do people think of the two suggestions here?
A fade in the hands of a top level clanner, it's expected. He's practiced a lot and knows how to work with a fade. The only real solution is that the clanner not go fade. Other wise, you get marines turtled into MS, the game ends and over half of them quit and then the server pretty much empties. If he's on there often and people see him on aliens, they leave because they know that the games will end quick and be no fun..
blink in 1.04 is so powerful, you just tele away without getting shot.
Fades are definitely not overpowered. What people don't realize that you're not gonna kill them with lmgs... get a few shotties, and you should be able to hold back fades and kill them on occassion. blink is definitely NOT overpowered, do you realize how slow it is, compared to 2.0?
trade meta with blink? holy crap, go ahead and try. the fade wouldn't be able to get away from more then a few LMGs, and it'll be nothing more then an overpowered suicide unit.
Frost: I think what you described, "marines turtling in MS" "half the team quitting" makes the Fade look pretty Godly to me. Besides, if the only solution is for the good people to not go Fade, then the Fade certainly is NOT balanced. Fades used to have to use strategy and tactics before 3.x but NOW, he just destroys everything.
Sure if you have 5 marines all packed together they might stand a chance...if the fade STAYS in battle. With blink the fade can just hit and run, hit and run. Or, the fade can just go and leisurely take out all the undefended res nodes (the whole marine team is bunched up together remember?) and if the rines come, the fade can run easily. And then the rest of the alien team has free reign over most of the map.
I want the Fade to be balanbced in a high-skilled setting.
I also have some other ideas, like making blink cost more energy, and also make the rate of energy regeneration directly proportional to how much energy the alien has left, to simulate a 'reload' period. The less energy you have, the slower your energy recharges. The Fade has to get tired SOME time, but at hive 2, metabolize will cut down on the resting period alot, so this only affects Fades at hive 1.
EDIT:
Last: I didn't even know TAU is a CS clan. I remember someone with Solar in his name and another named Scheme or something I don't exactly remember. Trust me TAU is a very good clan. Just ask anyone on this board. And please, tell me exactly how in a 6 on 6 match, are you going guard all of your nodes against 2 Fades at around 4 minutes with only 5 marines, even if they ALL have shotties. You'll have what... 1/1 upgrades by that time? And I don't think a Fade should be able to stand up to anything MORE than a group of LMGs at once. If a Fade tries to kill 3 shotgunenrs all by himself at once he should die horribly. If he comes in with support, then that's a different story. What are you afraid of, that Fades actually have to use TACTICS and smarts for once?
Next.
Duck_King: I would have NO problems with making the Fade cost less, and nerfing him at the same time. Think about it. Yes, 5 shotgunnres cost 50 res, which is equal to the cost of the Fade. However, the aliens still have the REST of the team while the marines are all occupied trying to deal with just ONE alien.
I want to maybe beef up the lerk (or make it cost less) and have it play a bigger role in regular NS. All lerks do in NS games are spam umbra/use primal scream. I want the lerk to play the role of primary hit-and-run alien. I also want the Fade to lose the ability to hit and run.
That being said, if the Fade does lose blink, then it should have a higher base running speed. Maybe replace blink with an ability to turn it 100% invisible for about 6 seconds? It can't attack during that time (all slots are diabled). During the first 3 seconds if it gets hit it won't decloak, but for the last 3 seconds it will partially decloak (to 85% invisible maybe?) if it got hit. Energy cost should be about 33% of max energy. There is also a 12 second cooldown period counting from the time the user first activates the ability (so 6 seconds after the ability ends you can use it again. This is so Fades can't stay perma-cloaked) This would allow Fades a decent chance to survive if the fade is smart and realizes it's about to be outgunned, but it won't be overpowering. Fades can use this ability to to be great ambushers too, but have to consider the possibility that they may not be able to last the 6 seconds it takes for them to reactivate the ability for retreat.
Again, I think you're missing the point. The aliens costs half of your resources to evolve to. I should hope it can go forth and kick some marine butt. The fade is far from invincible, and I don't care how good the player is at blinking. I've seen my share of good fade players, but hey, they spent half their res evolving that alien. More power to them. If the marines can't coordinate enough to take down a single alien tearing through them, why should the good player be penalized for that?
the reason it takes a group of rines to take on a single fade is because thats the basic play style. haven't u noticed how the marines share a pool of res while aliens have their own private res? the marines share res because they are supposed to work and move together to achieve their goals. aliens on the other hand are quicker and are able to manuever the map solo reacting to rine movement.
the early fade usually means a postponed hive. this may hurt the team, but if the fade is capable, it would help. if he dies, that is almost GG.
if the group of rines pushing about lose the 2 shotguns they have, who cares. thats like 30 res which can easily be made up on their side. the alien who lost 50+ res will most likely wander a skulk for most of the game.
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Not if you get the second hive.
Or are you one of those clanners he mentioned? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Being good at fade has nothing to do with being in a clan or not, really. Maybe except for training as one, you'll fight better opponents, if that's what you meant.
Personally, I don't think blink is too fast. It's actually pretty slow in my opinion, but the problem is when the fade turns around while blinking. Having their claws stretched out like that makes them confusing to aim at.
Switching Blink with Metabolize makes more sense to me. Metabolizing takes time and heals only about 2-3 LMG bullets every 2 or 3 second.
However, blink is good to have at hive one when they have two of your hives and is trying to take down the last one.
It would be their only chance to attack back and take over the other hives.
That's probably why Blink is a First Hive ability.
EDIT:
Last: I didn't even know TAU is a CS clan. I remember someone with Solar in his name and another named Scheme or something I don't exactly remember. Trust me TAU is a very good clan. Just ask anyone on this board. And please, tell me exactly how in a 6 on 6 match, are you going guard all of your nodes against 2 Fades at around 4 minutes with only 5 marines, even if they ALL have shotties. You'll have what... 1/1 upgrades by that time? And I don't think a Fade should be able to stand up to anything MORE than a group of LMGs at once. If a Fade tries to kill 3 shotgunenrs all by himself at once he should die horribly. If he comes in with support, then that's a different story. What are you afraid of, that Fades actually have to use TACTICS and smarts for once?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
considering i used to be in TAU-NS... this is LOL material. they weren't even at upper omega level last time I played with them. they were pretty kick-**** in 1.0, but only because of romano, silverwolf, and what-was-his-name-i-cant-remember were playing for them. Also, I have been playing scrims and pugs since early 2.0, and i can fairly say that just because you don't hold all your res nodes doesn't mean you'll lose. you should be able to maintain decent map control with phase gates and the like, and keep the aliens off your RTs as long as you lay down the pressure. it all comes down to pressuring the aliens and keeping them off your nodes, not dropping 50 turrets around every res node. jesus christ, this reminds me of when teflon made those ten pages arguments about how the fade was useless.
symbiote: an early fade is not a delayed hive. other people can put the hive up. in clan games, usually there is a player whose sole purpose is to save for the hive.
Let me put it this way: fades are the early game soldiers for the aliens. skulks and gorges dont stand too much of a chance against shotguns and HMGs, except maybe in pubs, but even then a decent fade will usually play a big role in containing the marines. switching blink with metabolize is like cutting off a guy's arm. he's not gonna be able to do ****. if you don't believe me, stop speculating on a forum and go ahead and TRY to fade with only metabolize. THEN come back and tell me that this is a reasonable change.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heck, from what the TAU said aliens don't even go for a second hive anymore in clan matches. All they do is save up for Fade, and then rape the marines.
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el oh el, if that's what paul aka solarcurve said, im glad im not in TAU anymore.
2. Heck, from what the TAU said aliens don't even go for a second hive anymore in clan matches. All they do is save up for Fade, and then rape the marines.
3. I agree 100% with the above suggestion of switching Blink with Metabolize. With Meta a Fade can afford not to get regen, and a cara fade is still fairly scary unless you have 2 or more shotgunners in a group. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I butchered your post to make it easier to respond to. Hooray!
1. This would make fades completely useless at hive 1. It would be better to just put in the old lifeform restrictions and make it impossible to gestate to fade at hive 1. The fade running speed is just too slow to kill anything. To see what I mean, try playing Natural Selection right now, become a fade, get one ability, and then make it a point to never use blink.
2. TAU must not play in very many NS clan matches. The difference between a hive 1 and hive 2 fade is enormous. Hive 1 fades have weaker armor and regenerate health and energy much more slowly due to the lack of metabolize. Hive 2 fades also have access to two abilities. And then there's all the huge benefits to the other lifeforms that two hives bring. I've seen clans win top-level games as aliens with only one hive, but that was after their other hives kept getting shot down.
3. My challenge to you is to play a fade without using blink. You can use metabolize all you want and pick carapace or whatever single ability you'd like. Then try to take down one shotgunner. If you can't do that, partial credit for taking down two 0-res-cost LMGers that are competent.
No, they don't know their stuff if they suggest stuff like this. Hive2 is all that aliens have in 3.0. Switching blink with meta? Horrible. DCs would be the worst chamber and .. yeah. I shouldn't need to elaborate.
2. If you want to discuss the balance of fades either get accurate information or play many clan/pub games.
3. Did you ever think that it was the comms fault those games you got owned by a fade? Many comms use very weak strategys/build orders that work by chance or take advantage of the advantage marines get in larger games (eg. elect everything don't get an armory until later). Those strategys simple are not effective in clan matches, so if we nerfed fades so that those strats were viable, aliens would get destroyed in clan matches.
You may be right, but I think you should carefully examine why you think the Fade is overpowered with all the facts, then make a decision.
2. I would have NO problems with making the Fade cost less, and nerfing him at the same time. Think about it. Yes, 5 shotgunnres cost 50 res, which is equal to the cost of the Fade. However, the aliens still have the REST of the team while the marines are all occupied trying to deal with just ONE alien.
3. I want to maybe beef up the lerk (or make it cost less) and have it play a bigger role in regular NS. All lerks do in NS games are spam umbra/use primal scream. I want the lerk to play the role of primary hit-and-run alien.
4. I also want the Fade to lose the ability to hit and run. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
More butchery of your post. Huzzah!
1. Weakening the shotgun to help no-blink fades survive wouldn't work. Without blink, everything becomes deadly to a fade, even if he has celerity to boost his run speed. This includes LMG and pistol fire. Another problem with moving blink to hive 2 would be that if hive 2 was killed, then all the fades out in the field would suddenly become almost immobile and worthless to the team.
2. It's true that a single fade can occupy an entire marine team for an entire match, but only if the marine team or commander isn't that good. A good commander will deal with high damage being done to his resource supply by sending a marine group out to kill alien RTs. If the fade tries to stop them, he'll probably be fighting multiple marines, some armed with shotguns, with the marines fully prepared to deal with him after he blinks in noisily. If the fade ignores them and keeps killing marine RTs, the marines will destroy alien resource towers, which are harder and usually pricier to rebuild than marine RTs.
3. A slight reworking of the lerk in classic mode doesn't sound like a bad idea. Right now, the lerk is a combination of hit-and-run and support that feels very unsatisfying either way. In classic, it isn't very suitable in hit-and-run because it costs about 10 res too much for how much health it has. If you make a mistake or a shotgunner simply has fast twitch skills, you instantly lose 30-36 res. I don't like support because I usually get killed by grenades, spikes are gone, sporing is mostly a thankless job, and primal scream requires you to be in the midst of things and doesn't seem to last long enough. I'd like it if either the lerk became more geared for hit and run by a speed increase or cost decrease, or more geared for support by a boost to primal scream duration, readdition of spikes, or decrease in energy costs.
4. Right now, all non-support aliens are hit and run. The skulk is ambush, hit, then run. The fade is blink in, hit, and run. And the onos is hit, stomp, and run. I don't see how you'd make the fade not hit and run unless you made it the primarily ranged fighter it was in earlier versions. I don't think that would happen, as the Kharaa seem to be heading towards becoming melee-only.
Thats pretty true, I mean, unless the fade is a total newb he really shouldn't die to 2 shotties
Serisouly, this thread is based on what a pubber talked to a random clanner about. And quite frankly a clan that doesn't even build hive 2 means a very VERY bad clan. Any half-**** PUB team will own that sort of a clan with a good commander, not to even mention actual clanners.
I still want to see the Fade nerfed and its costs reduced. Currently the marines are happily fighting the skulks (who might also need a slight beefing up, imho) and then suddenly boom Fades show up. And of course, lerks are nowhere to be seen. I just don't want the Fade to be the end-all-be-all unit that it feels like it is now. Nerf it to give other lifeforms a chance. Yes, PLEASE beef up the lerk for Classic.
one skilled shotgunner can take out a one hive fade in a semi big room.
and in a hallway just get two shot gunners from both sides and block him in jeez and jump back when he hits u so u get a jump of about 2 yards i think? becuase of the kickback
personally i think shottys r overpowered <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> j/k
Today I was playing on H2O-5 server, and some members from TAU were there. It has always been my opinion that Fades are overpowered in 3.x, and I asked one of the TAUs if he thought Fades were overpowered too. Well, he described Fades as "Gods" pretty much.
I always thought the one thing that made Fades overpowered is Blink, and the TAU agreed as well. He suggested that if Blink was switched with Metabolize (so Blink is available on hive2 instead of at hive1) then Fades wouldn't be "the Gods they are now" as he put it.
Instead of being a Heavy with built-in JP, a Fade would become a medium strength assault trooper who would need support to tear up a bunch of marines, instead of now where a single skilled Fade can wreak havoc everywhere and not ever die because Blink is the solution to...everything (marines now no longer have the advantage of range...and this is at hive ONE).
Heck, from what the TAU said aliens don't even go for a second hive anymore in clan matches. All they do is save up for Fade, and then rape the marines.
I agree 100% with the above suggestion of switching Blink with Metabolize. With Meta a Fade can afford not to get regen, and a cara fade is still fairly scary unless you have 2 or more shotgunners in a group.
I also have anotehr idea of my own. If blink must absolutely be kept available at hive one, then why not replace it with the 1.04 Blink? It still allows the Fade to travel great distances in an instant, but it doesn't give the Fade precise control of exactly where he'll end up. I'd prefer Fades to get blink only at hive2, but I'd accept giving Fades a less-powerful blink as well.
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What do you think? Share your opinions! No flames please! Contructive criticism is welcome! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completly disagree with you and Tau. Marines are a little overpowered at least in clan matchs imo. 1 Hive fades arnt "godly" at all, they are good but in no way do they just stomp on the marine players with cow like powers. 2nd Hives are almost if not more important then any fade thats going to set foot on the field. Umbra, Leap, Bile - The abilities that come with a 2nd hive are far superior then extra fades. If the marines can lockdown two hives or phase to both with mines, I would bet a 99.9% chance the marines will win that game. Even if the aliens have 3 or even 4 fades. Basically, shotguns do well against fades, but the key to winning against them is making them come to you. If you lock/phase both hives with mines or elect rsr nodes then you WILL have a major advantage.
The only reason to get more fades before a 2nd hive ie: delay your hive. Is for the purpose of clearing or keeping the 2nd hive.
The problem with the alien game are as follows: To much reliance on the fades (doesnt mean they are overpowered), 2nd hives boost on aliens *Without it aliens are screwed, with it they are overpowered to most marine tech given equal rsr tower gains.
Marines: Scary game, travel in packs.
Aliens: Fast, crazy game with more (that doesn't mean total) emphasis on individuals.
2 <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> + HMG = (dead) <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->