Base Marine Unit Too Powerful.
Rapier7
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Do you honestly need this?</div> I play on the Lords of Chaos server on weekends, and I like to think myself as one of the best commanders there, even though I have a build order and style completely different from other competent commanders. I upgrade rush, making my base unit more powerful than it already is. 20 player server, mind.
One of the server regulars is known as 'dsg', and he is one of the best marines(short of titanium) I know.
As a marine, he'll end up with a 10:1 Kill/death ratio usually, and it's really frustrating starting out as a skulk against him.
Similarly, there are other players just like him, titanium, Romano, etc.
When these same über marines go on the alien team, they can hardly break a 2:1 kd ratio. Edit: As a skulk.
I think you know where I'm going with this.
One or two really good marines will tip the game into the marine favor, while 2 really good aliens can't. It's not really fair that one marine will hold a pack of 3-4 skulks alone, while those 4 kills in a row for skulks are just strokes of luck against incompetent marines (me, for instance).
Either buff the skulk or nerf the marine. (I'm getting my own death sentence, since I'm absolutely horrible as a marine).
One of the server regulars is known as 'dsg', and he is one of the best marines(short of titanium) I know.
As a marine, he'll end up with a 10:1 Kill/death ratio usually, and it's really frustrating starting out as a skulk against him.
Similarly, there are other players just like him, titanium, Romano, etc.
When these same über marines go on the alien team, they can hardly break a 2:1 kd ratio. Edit: As a skulk.
I think you know where I'm going with this.
One or two really good marines will tip the game into the marine favor, while 2 really good aliens can't. It's not really fair that one marine will hold a pack of 3-4 skulks alone, while those 4 kills in a row for skulks are just strokes of luck against incompetent marines (me, for instance).
Either buff the skulk or nerf the marine. (I'm getting my own death sentence, since I'm absolutely horrible as a marine).
Comments
Marine jumping is too easy. A marine who keeps strafe jumping a skulk is near impossible to kill. How about adding a stamina meter to marines? After 2 or 3 consecutive jumps you have to rest before jumping again. I mean, not even NBA players can bounce around like NS marines can.
There are several skulk threads with various improvements that could be made, so I wont go into details here, but I like the free upgrades idea.
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Though yeah, buff the lower lifeforms if anything.
Relax ppl
Good shots owning pubs or comparing k:d ratios of good players on pubs is not evidence of anything.
Relax ppl <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wee ! 5 Butter Points !
At times, there are over 7 clan members on that server, each one of them very good. Guess what? They still get their **** handed to them.
I can bunnyhop, it does practically nothing to help 'dodge' (how do you 'dodge' a bullet in the first place?) bullets.
At times, there are over 7 clan members on that server, each one of them very good. Guess what? They still get their **** handed to them.
I can bunnyhop, it does practically nothing to help 'dodge' (how do you 'dodge' a bullet in the first place?) bullets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dodging is an art, simply <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then we shall say EVADE!
Ps. Combat and grenades not needed/
You cannot ambush a semi non retarded marine unless he's alone, uses taunt every second, and is deaf.
Sure, you can hide in that corner, whoops the marine saw yah....dead!
You can hide on the wall, that silly rambo, he saw you in that predictable spot, SPLAT GOES THE SKULK!!!!1111111111111eleven
If we add teamwork, minimal targeting abilities you are tah 0wned.
The problem with skulks, they can't do anything about it!
Marines have, long range, medium range, and even a decent melee weapon.
Skulks are less versatile, they have nothing besides melee ability.
Adapt and you slaughter, the skulk cannot even adapt and thusly is at an dis-advantage.
What does 75/10 do even? Is that another LMG bullet? That seems ever so insignificant.
Skulks get their **** kicked in the early game, that much is a statistical fact. By suggesting ambushes you imply that it is somehow the aliens' lack of tactics that causes marines to wipe the floor with their base species. In reality, however, ambushing is not possible often enough to justify making skulks pitifully weak in direct confrontations. Whether or not you consider it balanced that Aliens trail behind until they can get a Fade, it's not fun or intuitive that one base unit on the marine team is so much more powerful than the basic alien species.
And having to have 3 skulks to swarm a single marine the marine shouldn't win, but he can kill 1/3 2/3 easily unless ambushed, which you must of been waiting there a good minute or two.
Why should the marine, alone, be such a threat is our point.
Oh, and early Motion Tracking.
Whatcha gonna do about that?
Crickets are not even this quiet.
No, parasite isn't just a "lure", it's a wallhack for aliens. it'll allow skulks to ambush MUCH easily since they know exactly when to drop down and bite the marines
a single marine will kill 3 skulks or so easily when the skulks don't bunnyhop or ambush and just run straight at the marine, BUT that marine is probably a vet with exceptional aim. You can say the same about good fades owning newbie marines that can't aim.
Early motion tracking means delayed upgrades, which means when the fades come they'll have an easier time killing the marines.
"ratatatatatat" *skulk dies*
*pregnant pause*
OMG, SKULK SUXXXOR, BOOST THE SKULK!
In reality, good skulk vs good marine kill ratio is ~1:1, perhaps slightly less in favor of the marine mid game - and in favor of the skulk early game (lvl0 armor). Why? Because good skulks use the little thing called teamwork, just like good marines do, and there's abolutely nothing marines can do if they die before they even know what hit them.
TEAMWORK MOTHER******! Do you do it?
(seriously... that line should go into my sig, I'm too tired of saying "try teamwork" in every other thread like this, and with that line, I could just post blank posts as a reply to >95% of these "balance" threads)
Early-game aliens on the other hand face a host of problems vs competent marines - their fixed low 1-hive spawnrate (ever ambushed a skulkrush and setup camp right outside their hive after it?), the weakness of the Skulk in any situation where <i>taking a tactically vital position</i> is of essence and the absolute rapetasticness of many Hive locations.
Yes, its true - Skulks can maybe keep marines out of a spot their ambushing. But marines on the other hand can almost gaurantee they'll keep out Skulks of an equal skill level from a spot they've taken - unless its a super marine unfriendly spot, but then your commander needs a whack. In other words, <b>the marines can control vast amounts of territory</b> - Aliens can just about maybe hold on to their nodes, or sneak attacks onto the enemys nodes. So what we end up with is the first ~4 minutes up to the vastly more useful Fades popping up being dominated by marines fairly strongly, and then this strong turnabout when and if aliens do get Fades. So yes, the Skulk needs help.
The base marine unit on the other hand, in any competitive setting is not too strong. 10v10 is an exception, and usually involves <b>exceptionally craptastic alien teamwork</b>, seeing as its a pub. You can make a point that above 6v6 each Hive should spawn faster to make up for better unit upgrades and lessen the devastation of one mass death (up to 80 seconds in the spawnqueue in a 10v10), but that aside the increased efficiency of marine upgrades is a fairly minor factor in why marines win most large public server engagements. And pretty much any strategy at all is sufficient to win a large game, unless for some reason you only build one IP.
Its really the story of some minor disadvantages (ressources system, upgrade system) blown wholly out of proportion by the sheer level of chaos that reigns on a 10v10 pub. Aliens having no easy way to make order of that mess, will almost always loose unless they perform exceptionally well or the other side sucks amazingly badly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Boost the lerk
Make Fade less expensive while nerfing it a bit
Reduce welder price so commanders won't think twice about dropping lots of them
OR
bring 1.04-style armor back for marines.
Currently, marines are the faster and more mobile team when it comes to res nodes, by a long shot. That seems awfully backwards to me. The main reason this is so is because of the power of the base marine unit, even without upgrades in the very early game. Most of these games are 5v5 or 6v6; typically in the beginning of the game, one person stays behind to build and everyone else splits up and rushes to the nearest res nodes, in no more than groups of 2 or 3. In this way they rapidly spread and take over half the map while the aliens either have very few nodes, or have too many Gorges to be able to fight them back. What skulks are present are usually powerless to stop them seeing as one skilled marine, basically ramboing for res nodes, can quite possibly fight off 2 or 3 skulks.
In my mind, this goes against everything the marine team has supposedly stood for since this game's release. Against a decent alien team, marines should be required to move in squads under the coordination of a central commander, but currently this form of organized ramboing is the most effective strategy for the early game. Group movement and teamwork is much more intuitive for marines than for aliens. Marines should not have a huge advantage early game against an equal number of aliens; one skulk should be a good match for one marine, even if the marine has put himself in a position where ambushing him is impossible. The marines should be the ones truly forced to work together and combine firepower, not the aliens.
No, not really, simply because aiming in NS is unlike most other games out there.
Unless of course, you play TFC or Unreal, games are quite similar between the two.
As many people do. Im not just talking about CS players here. However different the aiming in NS is to other games, its still far more intuivite than making a sucessfull kill with aliens.
First off, the 'jump'.
Let's be honest here, when playing as a marine, how often do you (or others you see) IMMEDIATELY start to jump around when a skulk attacks? On most every server I have played on, people always start jumping like noobs on crack when they are attacked as marine.
Why?
...because they know that if they jump the game will have a harder time registering a hit. Plain and simple.
Jumping should have ZERO impact on alien kills (by skulks) simply because of the nature of the skulk. Think about it. One small target facing a huge target. (relatively speaking) It's like shooting the side of a barn, the target is so huge that you can't miss.
This is an issue I really feel needs to be addressed.
Personally I think the simple solution is to remove the ability to fire while in mid-air. That means if you jump, your gun will stop firing until you are on the ground again. (it's like the sniper in TFC)
Same for ladders. If you climb a ladder you lose your ability to fire your weapon. (which should be impossible anyway) The only exception to this rule would be jetpacks, which would negate the need to be on the ground to fire.
The second issue in regard to marine dominance of skulks is the fact that skulks rarely ever purchase upgrades. (defence/movement/sensory) While upper level aliens use them extensively, skulks don't use them because they often never make back the res investment. So buying an upgrade only means they go fade that much later.
That is why I would like to see upgrade costs tied to the level of alien.
Skulk = free upgrades
Gorge = 2 res (as it is now)
Lerk = 3 res
Fade = 4 res
Onos = 5 res
Also, all upgrades are wiped when evolving to an upper level alien. (so no carrying over cheap upgrades) The upgrades themselves would not be stronger, they would just be free for te skulk.
Lastly, I would like to see an incentive for aliens to deal a blow to marines. For example, lets say aliens have 2 hives and marines have 1 hive. If marines take out an alien hive the aliens are significantly weakened. If the aliens take out the marines in a hive the marines face NO penalty at all. The aliens still have to fortify the area and build a hive to see any benefit, and the marines are not weakened by losing it.
So I would like to see an incentive for aliens to attack the marine base. Should aliens be able to attack the marine base AND take out a building, the upgrades at that building would have to be re-researched. They would not have to PAY for the upgrades again, but they would have to wait for the upgrades to be researched again.
This would actually give the aliens a chance to weaken the marines, an aspect that is SORELY lacking from the game right now.
As it stands, the marines are able to continually tech up, and they NEVER get weaker in strength. When the marines lose the game, they lose the game at full strength, which is WHY it takes forever to finish off the marine team.
With aliens they get weaker with every hive they lose, and in the end they are not a match for heavily upgraded marines who are attacking their last hive. (which is as it should be)
However, aliens should be able to force marines to re-research tech if they are foolish enough to let one of their upgrade buildings get destroyed. This would provide an incentive for aliens to stay in the game instead of hitting F4 when all seems lost.
Should marines get too strong, aliens could group up and attack the marine base knowing that this could set them back a few minutes of research. So when that heavy train approaches, they could rush and take out the proto-lab, knowing that marines won't just have to re-build the building to start dropping more heavies.
In the case of the arms lab, we could make it so that killing an arms lab only sets the marine team one level of upgrades. If they are at level 3, they get knocked back to level 2 etc.
People don't have a problem making aliens re-build (from scratch) and PAY FOR a new hive when it is killed. While I am not suggesting marines have to pay for upgrades a second time, I do think they should be penalized the TIME to research the upgrades again if they lose that building.
If they don't want that to happen, they shouldn't let the buildings be destroyed.
Those are just three simple ways we could even out this imbalance without beefing the skulks at all.
Regards,
Savant
In short, I think it is simply a matter of "yes, marines are supposed to be better right off the bat, they cost more resources to start up with."
**puts on flame-proof suit**
[EDIT]
Savant's post wasn't here when I hit post, but I love it so I'm going to respond to it.
I have said it so many times in game that I probably should just bind it to a key. "Jumping SHOULD NOT be a viable defensive tactic!" Just imagine the marine's drill sergeant or whoever saying "And if you see an alien, dont worry. Just jump around lkike crazy and they'll miss you more often than not." Either widen the FoV on the skulks so that jumping does not cause a skulk to completely lose sight of you and become disoriented, or nerf marine jumping, almost to the point of instituting CS jumping. Jumping should be for navigational purposes, not combat purposes.
I disagree about the upgrades based on my original post (although making them one point for skulks would be fine by me), but I do like your idea about equalizing the damage due to losing structures vs. losing hives. It seems that aliens have to either win the game all at once or they will never win at all.
Other than that, I agree with you wholeheartedly, savant. Although free upgrades would technically be beefing the skulk somewhat, so your last sentence is wrong <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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