<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Same for ladders. If you climb a ladder you lose your ability to fire your weapon. (which should be impossible anyway) The only exception to this rule would be jetpacks, which would negate the need to be on the ground to fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whist <i>moving</i> on the ladder maybe, but if your stationary you should still be able to fire from ladders. Otherwise certain maps (e.g mineshaft) would be horrible for marines. Somtimes you need to shoot from ladders to clear offensive chamber barricades (e.g the entrances to sewer hive in caged).
On 20-25 player servers, Marines own all. It's as simple as that.
They own at the beginning, they own at the middle, they own at the end.
A --GOOD-- comm and decent marines that know how to travel AS A GROUP will dominate all. The only reason marines should lose is if a crappy comm takes the chair, or most of the marines cannot aim with any kind of accuracy. Early fades won't do jack either as long as the marines don't run about in 2 man groups.
<span style='color:orange'>swear filter dodge removed</span>, the last few days, aliens have been losing like there's no tomorrow (20-25 player servers with sub 100 pings to west coast; Voogru, NSA, HK, FAT, WF, etc..).
It's quite pathetic, really.
I think we should bring back 1.04 or 2.01... and all play BAST. That will make the world a happy place. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-gparent+Apr 19 2004, 07:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gparent @ Apr 19 2004, 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Apr 19 2004, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 19 2004, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe the skulk is going up to 75/10 in beta 4 Relax ppl <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wee ! 5 Butter Points ! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dont' dizz that... going from 9 to 10 LMG hits is a whopping 11% longer lifetime.
Marine Group beats Skulk Group, no contest unless they all were ambushed, had no aim, didn't jump.
Oh, and how don't I have enough res for Upgrades? I have presistant map hack so that it pays itself in -RFK. 1IP+Armory+Obs+MT=85 res, 1 RT and then...
RFK simply gives your res system a large boost. (VERY unbalancing sometimes)
Why do you need armor upgrades when you know where they are, always? Oh, and if your saying clan teamwork beats early MT I believe a clan totally pwned a khaara team with early MT, there goes the skulk teamwork part.
Besides, skulks are ever so easy to hit in groups, the skulks in the pub I play actually jump around but I....*gasp* shoot where their -going- WOOOO!!! Then I connect with them from there.
Parasite+Motion Tracking=Easy RFK from that lure as you camp a corner and distract the Khaara
And besides, if I go in a room I check the roof asap, I see the skulk, I blast it then my fellow marine will finish the skulk.
There all there? 2 marines against 5 skulks, we will die but guess what? Were dominating the map! They rush the base? The mines will keep them off and then beacon if they managed to by-pass the decently placed mines.
Early fades are easily taken care of or easily repelled from RFK from this point unless you can't hit a humanoid, notice repel? Yes, what good does a fade do when he's constantly driven away?
Not really, then we get 1-2 shotties or wpn 2 LMGs to slaughter the fade when he's unlucky, what sacrifice is a LMG marine when you kill the fade?
Oh and if they get hive 2, the marines will kill it for the win or lose it most likely.
The alien Resource system is horrible for getting RTs, reduce gorge cost to 5 or 0, but make the res you gain at start 20 or 15.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Same for ladders. If you climb a ladder you lose your ability to fire your weapon. (which should be impossible anyway) The only exception to this rule would be jetpacks, which would negate the need to be on the ground to fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whist moving on the ladder maybe, but if your stationary you should still be able to fire from ladders. Otherwise certain maps (e.g mineshaft) would be horrible for marines. Somtimes you need to shoot from ladders to clear offensive chamber barricades (e.g the entrances to sewer hive in caged). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this idea alot, a slight evening of the playing field. Ladder levels already have devistating effects on Onos, then again, how does an Onos climb a ladder anyway?
10v10+ is too large. It favors marines making it easier to put more men in important areas. The biggest weakness of marines is the reload, the more troops they can put in an area the better chance they have of covering each other and/or killing enemies before individuals run out of ammo.
Also larger games spread alien res over more players, so they need the same upgrades but they are getting less income because it is shared. Marines on the other hand spend the exact same cost for upgrades that work automatically on every guy.
But that doesn't excuse aliens from not getting in position ahead of marines to maximize your advantage. It is simply astounding how many skulks will run (or bunnyhop) right towards waiting marine guns and get cut down. That sort of thing just doesn't work, stop trying it. If you are having trouble getting to marines try bringing in a lerk or going around behind them instead of just rushing their face 8 times in a row and hoping you get lucky.
If you are having trouble ambushing good marines that means you are being predictable. Pick new spots, attack just before they get to the ambush, use teamwork to bait and distract.
I have to say its easy as a marine to kill a skulk, you really have to work together, and simotaneously hit a marine with 2+ to kill him if he's good at all.
I know I can take out 2 skulks pretty easily usually, unless I'm suprised by them. Then pistol a third if really neccessary, or knife them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Once you get a shotgun its all over.
I think one of the problems is motion tracking really negates skulks ability to "sneak" around the map. It makes it tough, especially if you don't know if they have MT yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulks are a small life-form, why not have them just blink in and out of motion tracking, like if they moving full speed, every 5 seconds they "tick" up for one second on tracking? Being able to go "oh here comes a skulk" and aim at a corner when the skulk has no upgrades, or just carapace(which helps, but not against a prepared LMG clip) is a bit too easy.
Myself, i only play combat now as i hate having to rely on other people but the skulk is good as it is now. As marine i can do fairly well and usually as alien i'll do better, basically because you can get focus at level 3 so early on in the game, get celerity also and then you don't need to upgrade till level 7+ really.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I think the simple solution is to remove the ability to fire while in mid-air. That means if you jump, your gun will stop firing until you are on the ground again. (it's like the sniper in TFC) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have played various games where these trained army specialists can't seem to shoot while in the air, but when you think about it, why would a trained marine not be able to shoot while jumping.
Well, I agree marines jumping and shooting is lame... but I think most marines are jumping so maybe when they get bit they will get knockedback across the room, securing their kill.
I like the idea of 0 res upgrades for skulks. That would make getting upgrades more useful, and it might even out the odds a little against large groups of marines. I have to say I like the upgrades being taken away upon upgrading to a higher lifeform, not because people would be cheap and upgrade as a skulk then go fade or onos, but because its annoying having to go die becuase you have upgrades you dont want as a higher lifeform.
If all you are doing is ambushing, you are only playing a defensive game. Let's see you do your "AMBUSH OF MIGHT"when your hive is getting sieged from a certain room.
It's funny how it takes multiple skulks teamwork to take out a few rines, while one skilled rine can rambo all by himself. I thought the manual said the exact OPPOSITE...
The main advantage of the attacking side is the ability to concentrate units in any area while the defender has to spread out. Therefore, the only chance of a successful defensive action is to hold off the enemy in time for reinforcements to arrive.
The problem here lies with the fact that marines are much better at defending. A marine outpost is far harder to take down than a WoL, and distress beacon, coupled with Phase Gates, increase the effective strength of a marine team greatly. Moreover, a marine stands a far better chance of winning at close combat than a skulk down a long corridor.
Therefore, its usually very easy for marines to set up a siege base. And Ambushing does not help when you are forced to attack, not defend.
I'd like to see the strength of alien buildings improved.
Right now, as you point out, aliens can't really "fortify" an area. While it's in the backstory that marines should be able to take down extremely heavy fortifications (siege), the curve of "effort to destroy vs. strength of alien fortification" plateaus too soon. This is partly because all marines have to do is chuck a bunch of grenades into a room, and partly because alien buildings don't do enough to either repel an attack on their fortifications.
Note that I'm not talking about just static fortifications: the presence of chambers in a room doesn't help out the defenders that much, especially not enough to balance the inherent defensive disadvantage of a melee race. So, essentially, aliens defending a room with chambers are *worse* off, not better off, since the marines have the initiative: if the aliens do not confront them, the marines will just shoot up all the chambers.
I'd like to see GL blast damage vs. structures removed, and chambers themselves either become cheaper or have a greater effect. (Cheaper chambers would only work if it required more upgrade chambers to get certain levels of upgrades--f'r instance, if DC's were 5 res, then 6 of them should be required for level 3 regen.)
Of course, it's possible to argue that aliens were not designed to be a defensive race, and should rely on mobility of units, rather than capture of ground, to control the map. Unfortunately marines aren't that much slower than they are, and have problems capitalizing on their mobility for all the reasons you guys already mentioned.
Jumping isn't the problem. The problem is skulks are too weak. I suggest 0 res upgrades that take maybe 1-2 seconds to gestate (like in Combat) and reduce gorge cost to like 5. Make healspray have a huge area of effect again (and up the RoF) and give skulks the ability to jump off walls like marines can jump off ladders. Then maybe increase skulk base speed to like 310. I think that'd be a pretty damn cool way to increase teamwork, and upgrade skulks without just improving their HP/AP. Ok and maybe give them 75 hp <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
DO NOT MAKE IT SO THAT YOU CANNOT FIRE WHILE JUMPING. This is not the cause for any problems. Besides, we don't need realism like that. Just fix bites so that when you hit on your screen it actually registers.
Comments
Whist <i>moving</i> on the ladder maybe, but if your stationary you should still be able to fire from ladders. Otherwise certain maps (e.g mineshaft) would be horrible for marines. Somtimes you need to shoot from ladders to clear offensive chamber barricades (e.g the entrances to sewer hive in caged).
They own at the beginning, they own at the middle, they own at the end.
A --GOOD-- comm and decent marines that know how to travel AS A GROUP will dominate all. The only reason marines should lose is if a crappy comm takes the chair, or most of the marines cannot aim with any kind of accuracy. Early fades won't do jack either as long as the marines don't run about in 2 man groups.
<span style='color:orange'>swear filter dodge removed</span>, the last few days, aliens have been losing like there's no tomorrow (20-25 player servers with sub 100 pings to west coast; Voogru, NSA, HK, FAT, WF, etc..).
It's quite pathetic, really.
I think we should bring back 1.04 or 2.01... and all play BAST. That will make the world a happy place. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Relax ppl <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wee ! 5 Butter Points ! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont' dizz that... going from 9 to 10 LMG hits is a whopping 11% longer lifetime.
Oh, and how don't I have enough res for Upgrades? I have presistant map hack so that it pays itself in -RFK. 1IP+Armory+Obs+MT=85 res, 1 RT and then...
RFK simply gives your res system a large boost. (VERY unbalancing sometimes)
Why do you need armor upgrades when you know where they are, always? Oh, and if your saying clan teamwork beats early MT I believe a clan totally pwned a khaara team with early MT, there goes the skulk teamwork part.
Besides, skulks are ever so easy to hit in groups, the skulks in the pub I play actually jump around but I....*gasp* shoot where their -going- WOOOO!!! Then I connect with them from there.
Parasite+Motion Tracking=Easy RFK from that lure as you camp a corner and distract the Khaara
And besides, if I go in a room I check the roof asap, I see the skulk, I blast it then my fellow marine will finish the skulk.
There all there? 2 marines against 5 skulks, we will die but guess what? Were dominating the map! They rush the base? The mines will keep them off and then beacon if they managed to by-pass the decently placed mines.
Early fades are easily taken care of or easily repelled from RFK from this point unless you can't hit a humanoid, notice repel? Yes, what good does a fade do when he's constantly driven away?
Not really, then we get 1-2 shotties or wpn 2 LMGs to slaughter the fade when he's unlucky, what sacrifice is a LMG marine when you kill the fade?
Oh and if they get hive 2, the marines will kill it for the win or lose it most likely.
The alien Resource system is horrible for getting RTs, reduce gorge cost to 5 or 0, but make the res you gain at start 20 or 15.
Whist moving on the ladder maybe, but if your stationary you should still be able to fire from ladders. Otherwise certain maps (e.g mineshaft) would be horrible for marines. Somtimes you need to shoot from ladders to clear offensive chamber barricades (e.g the entrances to sewer hive in caged). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea alot, a slight evening of the playing field. Ladder levels already have devistating effects on Onos, then again, how does an Onos climb a ladder anyway?
I've stopped playing the matador game (Toro!) with skulks, because it's rather un-fun to be on the recieving end.
Also larger games spread alien res over more players, so they need the same upgrades but they are getting less income because it is shared. Marines on the other hand spend the exact same cost for upgrades that work automatically on every guy.
But that doesn't excuse aliens from not getting in position ahead of marines to maximize your advantage. It is simply astounding how many skulks will run (or bunnyhop) right towards waiting marine guns and get cut down. That sort of thing just doesn't work, stop trying it. If you are having trouble getting to marines try bringing in a lerk or going around behind them instead of just rushing their face 8 times in a row and hoping you get lucky.
If you are having trouble ambushing good marines that means you are being predictable. Pick new spots, attack just before they get to the ambush, use teamwork to bait and distract.
Did you morons ever think that we were trying it before?
I know I can take out 2 skulks pretty easily usually, unless I'm suprised by them. Then pistol a third if really neccessary, or knife them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Once you get a shotgun its all over.
I think one of the problems is motion tracking really negates skulks ability to "sneak" around the map. It makes it tough, especially if you don't know if they have MT yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulks are a small life-form, why not have them just blink in and out of motion tracking, like if they moving full speed, every 5 seconds they "tick" up for one second on tracking? Being able to go "oh here comes a skulk" and aim at a corner when the skulk has no upgrades, or just carapace(which helps, but not against a prepared LMG clip) is a bit too easy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I think the simple solution is to remove the ability to fire while in mid-air. That means if you jump, your gun will stop firing until you are on the ground again. (it's like the sniper in TFC) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have played various games where these trained army specialists can't seem to shoot while in the air, but when you think about it, why would a trained marine not be able to shoot while jumping.
Come to think of it, have you even fired a rifle?
Even then, you probably aren't even allowed to own a rifle.
Marines jumping and shooting is pretty lame, it's the reason why they dominate long, mid, and close range combat.
I like the idea of 0 res upgrades for skulks. That would make getting upgrades more useful, and it might even out the odds a little against large groups of marines. I have to say I like the upgrades being taken away upon upgrading to a higher lifeform, not because people would be cheap and upgrade as a skulk then go fade or onos, but because its annoying having to go die becuase you have upgrades you dont want as a higher lifeform.
It's funny how it takes multiple skulks teamwork to take out a few rines, while one skilled rine can rambo all by himself. I thought the manual said the exact OPPOSITE...
In any case, you should've ambushed the rines at the certain seiging room instead of letting them set up. Parasite and good intel is a must.
The problem here lies with the fact that marines are much better at defending. A marine outpost is far harder to take down than a WoL, and distress beacon, coupled with Phase Gates, increase the effective strength of a marine team greatly. Moreover, a marine stands a far better chance of winning at close combat than a skulk down a long corridor.
Therefore, its usually very easy for marines to set up a siege base. And Ambushing does not help when you are forced to attack, not defend.
Right now, as you point out, aliens can't really "fortify" an area. While it's in the backstory that marines should be able to take down extremely heavy fortifications (siege), the curve of "effort to destroy vs. strength of alien fortification" plateaus too soon. This is partly because all marines have to do is chuck a bunch of grenades into a room, and partly because alien buildings don't do enough to either repel an attack on their fortifications.
Note that I'm not talking about just static fortifications: the presence of chambers in a room doesn't help out the defenders that much, especially not enough to balance the inherent defensive disadvantage of a melee race. So, essentially, aliens defending a room with chambers are *worse* off, not better off, since the marines have the initiative: if the aliens do not confront them, the marines will just shoot up all the chambers.
I'd like to see GL blast damage vs. structures removed, and chambers themselves either become cheaper or have a greater effect. (Cheaper chambers would only work if it required more upgrade chambers to get certain levels of upgrades--f'r instance, if DC's were 5 res, then 6 of them should be required for level 3 regen.)
Of course, it's possible to argue that aliens were not designed to be a defensive race, and should rely on mobility of units, rather than capture of ground, to control the map. Unfortunately marines aren't that much slower than they are, and have problems capitalizing on their mobility for all the reasons you guys already mentioned.
DO NOT MAKE IT SO THAT YOU CANNOT FIRE WHILE JUMPING. This is not the cause for any problems. Besides, we don't need realism like that. Just fix bites so that when you hit on your screen it actually registers.