Natural Selection By The Numbers
Kevlar_Gorilla
Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28048Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28048Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Alien edition</div> Hello. I'm Kevlar Gorilla and Natural Selection is fun.
The following pages of tactics involve the specific time and resource models winning alien teams should follow. There is alot of math behind these calculations that isn't obvious; also, the numbers aren't always going to be exact. The figures here indicate that any game will end in less than 15 minutes, but this most often isn't the truth. Scale the times to your playing style.
<b>Scenario:</b>
8 vs 8 on a 10 res map
-Resources come in at 1 per tower every 4 second
<u>Basic Marine Information:</u>
-Regardless of the speed that a comm works at, he can only use the number of resources that his team has
- In these scenarios, it's always assumed the com gets an electrified tf / mines in base at the begining of the game
-If only one Arms lab is made, everything can be researched in 9 minutes
-Realistically, 1:1 (armor:weapons) at 3 minutes, 2:2 or 1:3 at 6 minutes, 3:3 at approximately 11 minutes
-Given 4 nodes + kill res, all res required for stock upgrades can be <u>earned</u> in less than 4 minutes
<u>Res for kills:</u>
- the winning team, on average, kills 40 enemies in 5 minutes
- in the calculations, this equates to an extra 1 res per 4 seconds - similar to an extra res node
<b>The Three Typical Scenarios:</b>
<u>a)If nobody gorges, </u>
-it will take (at best) 400 seconds - 6:40 minutes for resources everyone to go fade plus gestation time - approx 25 seconds
-in this time, an okay team of marines will have gotten 5+ res, secured a hive well, and have 2:2 or 1:3 with more than a few shotguns floating around.
-Because nobody has the will to gorge, The second hive will just be comming up and no D's will have been made.
-If the hive is just built, it will take 3 more minutes for matabolize to kick in; just in time for 3:3 and well equiped heavys
-You won't last this long because they already phase-rushed you dead at 7:00 minutes
<u>b)If two people gorge,</u>
-it will take 200 seconds - 3:20 minutes for 3 DC's the second hive to start, and 6 fades.
-metabolize and Movements come just in time to help cushion the Level 3 shotgun's arrival.
-also, any electrified resources can be easily taken down now - note that taking down res now only slows the rate of HA and Jetpacks coming out
-everything is researched on the marine's team and a skilled team including a stomp onos can win
<u>c)If 4 people gorge, drop res and go back skulk,</u>
- remaining team: one builds structures, two save for fade, one saves for hive
- at 2:15 seconds, the second hive will go up. It will be complete at 5:15
- the two fades will come at 2:30 including all DC's - perfect for removing any electrified RT's and secured hives
- the marines will only have *at absolute most* 1:1 with 1:2 just starting
- all people who gorged at the begining will be fades at 5:00 (or wait until 7:30 to onos), with full DC's and MC's
- also, if no more res are made, and fades can go back fade again every 2:30 minutes
- third hive can potentially be complete at 7 minutes, but will most likely be closer to 10
- the building gorge is done all structures at 1:20, 4:00, and 6:30 "...Now we donce..."
Most games exist in the b) - c) range, depending on skill, teamwork, tactics, and luck.
<b>Here's another common scenario:</b>
<u>You feel like skulking first, wait until 40 res and cap two nodes.</u>
-Assuming you have 3 nodes (2 gorges) plus kill res, your 40 res (Including initial 25) will come at 2:00. The end result is two nodes relatively early on.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, back skulk, wait for 25 more, then do it again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 25 res will come at 2:30 HOWEVER:
- fades, structures, and the hive appear 30 seconds earlier for your <u>WHOLE TEAM</u>
- That's 3 minutes of time you just earned for your team (30 seconds x 7 teamates - 30 personal seconds; a stretch, but still good for everyone)
- of course, in that 30 seconds you lost, your team profits an extra 7.5 resources, so re-gorging doesn't hurt at all.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, help your team, wait for 15 more, then drop again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 15 res will come at about 1:30
- note that as a gorge, you won't get as much personal bonus kill res, but you will definitely help your team out tons; this includes saving time for skulks to come to you instead of a hive. This kind of hands-on help is the best in the game.
- add the time saved for dropping something early
Last Note:
<u>Communicate!</u> - if you say "I'm saving for the second hive" or "I got D" your teams morale just boosted by %50 (scientifically proven).
Please keep your promises.
Thank you and good day.
A Marine version will be up in the "Frontiersman Strategy" section soon.
The following pages of tactics involve the specific time and resource models winning alien teams should follow. There is alot of math behind these calculations that isn't obvious; also, the numbers aren't always going to be exact. The figures here indicate that any game will end in less than 15 minutes, but this most often isn't the truth. Scale the times to your playing style.
<b>Scenario:</b>
8 vs 8 on a 10 res map
-Resources come in at 1 per tower every 4 second
<u>Basic Marine Information:</u>
-Regardless of the speed that a comm works at, he can only use the number of resources that his team has
- In these scenarios, it's always assumed the com gets an electrified tf / mines in base at the begining of the game
-If only one Arms lab is made, everything can be researched in 9 minutes
-Realistically, 1:1 (armor:weapons) at 3 minutes, 2:2 or 1:3 at 6 minutes, 3:3 at approximately 11 minutes
-Given 4 nodes + kill res, all res required for stock upgrades can be <u>earned</u> in less than 4 minutes
<u>Res for kills:</u>
- the winning team, on average, kills 40 enemies in 5 minutes
- in the calculations, this equates to an extra 1 res per 4 seconds - similar to an extra res node
<b>The Three Typical Scenarios:</b>
<u>a)If nobody gorges, </u>
-it will take (at best) 400 seconds - 6:40 minutes for resources everyone to go fade plus gestation time - approx 25 seconds
-in this time, an okay team of marines will have gotten 5+ res, secured a hive well, and have 2:2 or 1:3 with more than a few shotguns floating around.
-Because nobody has the will to gorge, The second hive will just be comming up and no D's will have been made.
-If the hive is just built, it will take 3 more minutes for matabolize to kick in; just in time for 3:3 and well equiped heavys
-You won't last this long because they already phase-rushed you dead at 7:00 minutes
<u>b)If two people gorge,</u>
-it will take 200 seconds - 3:20 minutes for 3 DC's the second hive to start, and 6 fades.
-metabolize and Movements come just in time to help cushion the Level 3 shotgun's arrival.
-also, any electrified resources can be easily taken down now - note that taking down res now only slows the rate of HA and Jetpacks coming out
-everything is researched on the marine's team and a skilled team including a stomp onos can win
<u>c)If 4 people gorge, drop res and go back skulk,</u>
- remaining team: one builds structures, two save for fade, one saves for hive
- at 2:15 seconds, the second hive will go up. It will be complete at 5:15
- the two fades will come at 2:30 including all DC's - perfect for removing any electrified RT's and secured hives
- the marines will only have *at absolute most* 1:1 with 1:2 just starting
- all people who gorged at the begining will be fades at 5:00 (or wait until 7:30 to onos), with full DC's and MC's
- also, if no more res are made, and fades can go back fade again every 2:30 minutes
- third hive can potentially be complete at 7 minutes, but will most likely be closer to 10
- the building gorge is done all structures at 1:20, 4:00, and 6:30 "...Now we donce..."
Most games exist in the b) - c) range, depending on skill, teamwork, tactics, and luck.
<b>Here's another common scenario:</b>
<u>You feel like skulking first, wait until 40 res and cap two nodes.</u>
-Assuming you have 3 nodes (2 gorges) plus kill res, your 40 res (Including initial 25) will come at 2:00. The end result is two nodes relatively early on.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, back skulk, wait for 25 more, then do it again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 25 res will come at 2:30 HOWEVER:
- fades, structures, and the hive appear 30 seconds earlier for your <u>WHOLE TEAM</u>
- That's 3 minutes of time you just earned for your team (30 seconds x 7 teamates - 30 personal seconds; a stretch, but still good for everyone)
- of course, in that 30 seconds you lost, your team profits an extra 7.5 resources, so re-gorging doesn't hurt at all.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, help your team, wait for 15 more, then drop again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 15 res will come at about 1:30
- note that as a gorge, you won't get as much personal bonus kill res, but you will definitely help your team out tons; this includes saving time for skulks to come to you instead of a hive. This kind of hands-on help is the best in the game.
- add the time saved for dropping something early
Last Note:
<u>Communicate!</u> - if you say "I'm saving for the second hive" or "I got D" your teams morale just boosted by %50 (scientifically proven).
Please keep your promises.
Thank you and good day.
A Marine version will be up in the "Frontiersman Strategy" section soon.
Comments
You save 10 res, can keep the RFK income even, through healing when it's needed, which is pivotal (ask the people in my pugs today, especcially the last one). By the numbers, you should have a hive sooner still, more res, and be a helpful addition to your team.
But wait, what do I hear? It won't happen. The people of NS cannot find it in themselves to help others, but instead play to be heroes. A good NS Player fights for the team, not for himself. Unfortunately, there are not enough of these. I guess I'll leave you with this:
Not all people are more useful as a skulk than they are as a gorge, and I find that I am far more useful for my team if I gorge instead of skulk, and played 3 games today, all of which I had less than 10 kill and deaths combined. These were not slaughters, either. It was a pug, and we never won a full match, only the alien half of each.
Remember that gorging can be fun too. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This whole thing can be summed up as "Work Selflessly as a Gorge and your team will win" but some people can't be convinced that easily.
I'm editing the main post as requests come. Keep them coming.
I'm a team player, I live to serve. I do play on LOC; been meaning to post here for a while.
You save 10 res, can keep the RFK income even, through healing when it's needed, which is pivotal (ask the people in my pugs today, especcially the last one). By the numbers, you should have a hive sooner still, more res, and be a helpful addition to your team.
But wait, what do I hear? It won't happen. The people of NS cannot find it in themselves to help others, but instead play to be heroes. A good NS Player fights for the team, not for himself. Unfortunately, there are not enough of these. I guess I'll leave you with this:
Not all people are more useful as a skulk than they are as a gorge, and I find that I am far more useful for my team if I gorge instead of skulk, and played 3 games today, all of which I had less than 10 kill and deaths combined. These were not slaughters, either. It was a pug, and we never won a full match, only the alien half of each.
Remember that gorging can be fun too. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<3 for Asal the permagorge!
A true team player.
The problem is, one Gorge of that type especially in pugs is the <b>absolute</b> maximum you can afford - 5 Skulks have to already split the jobs of taking down nodes (which is best done 2 at a time), harassing base and containing marines (which again, requires 2 at a time to be effective).
Now, to the actual topic :
There is a problem with mindlessly putting down nodes - namely that a node that lives under a minute isn't going to do your team a whole world of good (a bit less than 2.5 res per person - at the cost of 25 res for one). Whenever you're fighting a remotely competent team, they'll be hitting your nodes hard - and there is a simple physical limit to how succesful you can be in the field with your Skulks, and in how many places at the same time.
So its fair to say, each map has a limit of reasonably defendable nodes - for a popular example, take Eclipse. PS3, CC and Eclipse are the prime defendable nodes - Maintenance and Sloop if you have no real choice, and Triad/SAA/Horseshoe only if you're really desperate for some reason.
Also, I'm not sure how you figured your numbers in the 6 fade example, but the most common method is to have RT-droppers and builders seperate - meaning one guy drops 3 chambers at 40 res, one guy goes for the hive, 2 guys drop 2 RTs and continue to do so whenever they get a chance during the game and the remaining 4 in your example would be Fades, early Lerks or Onos backups (if you have that many people already, its wise to have a guy save for Hive 2 Onos, to be on the safe side).
Each map is hence different as far as optimal ressource models go, it can simply be said that a ressource rush early game is hard to hold onto and likely to backfire - whereas ressource expansion midgame can provide that lasting lifeform power to avoid any disasters.
<i>Edit - example:</i>
ns_metal, alien team starts with Surface Access hive - they within the first 2 minutes capture <i>all</i> nodes minus Power Banks and Flight Control. Before even the third minute Supply Way, Surface Access and Smelter nodes have died again - they had one early fade with DCs and a pretty damn broke team now. And seeing how they lacked real pressure in the earlygame, we were well teched to deal with the fade.
I dare say, most of them being competent players, they'd have spanked the beejezus out of us by just sticking with their Heating Room/Storage D and maybe even Smelter nodes and worried more about us meanie marines.
8 vs 8 on a 10 res map
-Resources come in at 1 per tower every 4 second
<u>Basic Marine Information:</u>
-Regardless of the speed that a comm works at, he can only use the number of resources that his team has
- In these scenarios, it's always assumed the com gets an electrified tf / mines in base at the begining of the game
-If only one Arms lab is made, everything can be researched in 9 minutes
-Realistically, 1:1 (armor:weapons) at 3 minutes, 2:2 or 1:3 at 6 minutes, 3:3 at approximately 11 minutes
-Given 4 nodes + kill res, all res required for stock upgrades can be <u>earned</u> in less than 4 minutes
<u>Res for kills:</u>
- the winning team, on average, kills 40 enemies in 5 minutes
- in the calculations, this equates to an extra 1 res per 4 seconds - similar to an extra res node
<b>The Three Typical Scenarios:</b>
<u>a)If nobody gorges, </u>
-it will take (at best) 400 seconds - 6:40 minutes for resources everyone to go fade plus gestation time - approx 25 seconds
-in this time, an okay team of marines will have gotten 5+ res, secured a hive well, and have 2:2 or 1:3 with more than a few shotguns floating around.
-Because nobody has the will to gorge, The second hive will just be comming up and no D's will have been made.
-If the hive is just built, it will take 3 more minutes for matabolize to kick in; just in time for 3:3 and well equiped heavys
-You won't last this long because they already phase-rushed you dead at 7:00 minutes
<u>b)If two people gorge,</u>
-it will take 200 seconds - 3:20 minutes for 3 DC's the second hive to start, and 6 fades.
-metabolize and Movements come just in time to help cushion the Level 3 shotgun's arrival.
-also, any electrified resources can be easily taken down now - note that taking down res now only slows the rate of HA and Jetpacks coming out
-everything is researched on the marine's team and a skilled team including a stomp onos can win
<u>c)If 4 people gorge, drop res and go back skulk,</u>
- remaining team: one builds structures, two save for fade, one saves for hive
- at 2:15 seconds, the second hive will go up. It will be complete at 5:15
- the two fades will come at 2:30 including all DC's - perfect for removing any electrified RT's and secured hives
- the marines will only have *at absolute most* 1:1 with 1:2 just starting
- all people who gorged at the begining will be fades at 5:00 (or wait until 7:30 to onos), with full DC's and MC's
- also, if no more res are made, and fades can go back fade again every 2:30 minutes
- third hive can potentially be complete at 7 minutes, but will most likely be closer to 10
- the building gorge is done all structures at 1:20, 4:00, and 6:30 "...Now we donce..."
Most games exist in the b) - c) range, depending on skill, teamwork, tactics, and luck.
<b>Here's another common scenario:</b>
<u>You feel like skulking first, wait until 40 res and cap two nodes.</u>
-Assuming you have 3 nodes (2 gorges) plus kill res, your 40 res (Including initial 25) will come at 2:00. The end result is two nodes relatively early on.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, back skulk, wait for 25 more, then do it again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 25 res will come at 2:30 HOWEVER:
- fades, structures, and the hive appear 30 seconds earlier for your <u>WHOLE TEAM</u>
- That's 3 minutes of time you just earned for your team (30 seconds x 7 teamates - 30 personal seconds; a stretch, but still good for everyone)
- of course, in that 30 seconds you lost, your team profits an extra 7.5 resources, so re-gorging doesn't hurt at all.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, help your team, wait for 15 more, then drop again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 15 res will come at about 1:30
- note that as a gorge, you won't get as much personal bonus kill res, but you will definitely help your team out tons; this includes saving time for skulks to come to you instead of a hive. This kind of hands-on help is the best in the game.
- add the time saved for dropping something early <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I accept that economy and strategy is a very important thing in NS , but c mon , this is a FPS , not Monopoly. Things arent so sure at all
8 vs 8 on a 10 res map
-Resources come in at 1 per tower every 4 second
<u>Basic Marine Information:</u>
-Regardless of the speed that a comm works at, he can only use the number of resources that his team has
- In these scenarios, it's always assumed the com gets an electrified tf / mines in base at the begining of the game
-If only one Arms lab is made, everything can be researched in 9 minutes
-Realistically, 1:1 (armor:weapons) at 3 minutes, 2:2 or 1:3 at 6 minutes, 3:3 at approximately 11 minutes
-Given 4 nodes + kill res, all res required for stock upgrades can be <u>earned</u> in less than 4 minutes
<u>Res for kills:</u>
- the winning team, on average, kills 40 enemies in 5 minutes
- in the calculations, this equates to an extra 1 res per 4 seconds - similar to an extra res node
<b>The Three Typical Scenarios:</b>
<u>a)If nobody gorges, </u>
-it will take (at best) 400 seconds - 6:40 minutes for resources everyone to go fade plus gestation time - approx 25 seconds
-in this time, an okay team of marines will have gotten 5+ res, secured a hive well, and have 2:2 or 1:3 with more than a few shotguns floating around.
-Because nobody has the will to gorge, The second hive will just be comming up and no D's will have been made.
-If the hive is just built, it will take 3 more minutes for matabolize to kick in; just in time for 3:3 and well equiped heavys
-You won't last this long because they already phase-rushed you dead at 7:00 minutes
<u>b)If two people gorge,</u>
-it will take 200 seconds - 3:20 minutes for 3 DC's the second hive to start, and 6 fades.
-metabolize and Movements come just in time to help cushion the Level 3 shotgun's arrival.
-also, any electrified resources can be easily taken down now - note that taking down res now only slows the rate of HA and Jetpacks coming out
-everything is researched on the marine's team and a skilled team including a stomp onos can win
<u>c)If 4 people gorge, drop res and go back skulk,</u>
- remaining team: one builds structures, two save for fade, one saves for hive
- at 2:15 seconds, the second hive will go up. It will be complete at 5:15
- the two fades will come at 2:30 including all DC's - perfect for removing any electrified RT's and secured hives
- the marines will only have *at absolute most* 1:1 with 1:2 just starting
- all people who gorged at the begining will be fades at 5:00 (or wait until 7:30 to onos), with full DC's and MC's
- also, if no more res are made, and fades can go back fade again every 2:30 minutes
- third hive can potentially be complete at 7 minutes, but will most likely be closer to 10
- the building gorge is done all structures at 1:20, 4:00, and 6:30 "...Now we donce..."
Most games exist in the b) - c) range, depending on skill, teamwork, tactics, and luck.
<b>Here's another common scenario:</b>
<u>You feel like skulking first, wait until 40 res and cap two nodes.</u>
-Assuming you have 3 nodes (2 gorges) plus kill res, your 40 res (Including initial 25) will come at 2:00. The end result is two nodes relatively early on.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, back skulk, wait for 25 more, then do it again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 25 res will come at 2:30 HOWEVER:
- fades, structures, and the hive appear 30 seconds earlier for your <u>WHOLE TEAM</u>
- That's 3 minutes of time you just earned for your team (30 seconds x 7 teamates - 30 personal seconds; a stretch, but still good for everyone)
- of course, in that 30 seconds you lost, your team profits an extra 7.5 resources, so re-gorging doesn't hurt at all.
<u>Now, instead, go gorge, drop a node, help your team, wait for 15 more, then drop again.</u>
- now you have 4 nodes plus kill res, the next 15 res will come at about 1:30
- note that as a gorge, you won't get as much personal bonus kill res, but you will definitely help your team out tons; this includes saving time for skulks to come to you instead of a hive. This kind of hands-on help is the best in the game.
- add the time saved for dropping something early<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I accept that economy and strategy is a very important thing in NS , but c mon , this is a FPS , not Monopoly. Things arent so sure at all.-
EDIT: Sorry , double post . Delete this on plis Mods.
- the winning team, on average, kills 40 enemies in 5 minutes
- in the calculations, this equates to an extra 1 res per 4 seconds - similar to an extra res node
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good post. Im curious how you arrived at this statistic.
Also, your times for hives/fades are not very realistic, especially in scenario c. I would say you need to add at least 30 seconds for the gorges to get to the nodes/evolve/build etc.
Factoring in the gestation time and time to get out of the hive and find a fight, marines should be able to finish lvl 2 guns before fades arrive, or very shortly after.
The flaw is that there is no inherent "start-up time" in the game, and realistically, the first 30-40 seconds will be actively used by smart players to gain position. Position which can then be used to impact your "best case" scenarios. Take the example of a marine who leaves base immediately to hunt gorges. If half of your team (in case C) is building nodes, you can reasonably expect to lose a node and a gorge off the bat because of lack of coverage.
The fact is that this "start-up time" is so important to remember in alien plans that except in cases of extreme skill stacking, your "best case" plan will be skewed significantly right off the bat, and, if you're smart, you'll budget this skew in.
My team's generic alien plan included this by specifying that a permenant gorge would be around to <i>re-cap</i> lost nodes, with the expectation that it would be too difficult to hold more than a couple nodes. This was after it was determined (by playing a lot) that 3 gorges and 3 nodes off the bat hurts more than it helps because of lack of coverage.
I guess a good summary would be that numbers absolutely aren't most important; you need to be able to contain the marines.
You're wrong. Everything is a monopoly, even HL deathmatch.
NS is especially a monopoly since it has RTS elements. In it's core, RTS doesn't revolve around strategy, but rather who knows how to interpret the opponents motives and counterreact to those the <b>fastest</b>. Speed and time are very, very important factors in every game. In essence, NS is one giant western quick draw contest.
b)If two people gorge,
-it will take 200 seconds - 3:20 minutes for 3 DC's the second hive to start, and 6 fades.
-metabolize and Movements come just in time to help cushion the Level 3 shotgun's arrival
how do you know that the comm WILL sg lvl3 ? I mean he may have spent the res on sth else like armor upg , locking hives (blergh) , MT .
This guide has weak bases , there are more factors in the game (e.g:skill players (aim) , teamplay , etc)