Shortening Combat Games
Demented
Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18573Members
Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18573Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Removing the gorge, nerfing the welder</div> This suggestion is by no means original. It has been brought up a few times already, and the purpose of this topic is to facilitate a concise discussion on this issue.
Combat games are either very long or very short. If aliens do not destroy the marines in the first few minutes with focus skulks, the game slowly turns into a boring drawn-out stalemate that lasts much longer than your average classic game. But wasn't combat designed to be mindless, fast paced FPS fun?
The problem lies with the inability of either site to sustain an offensive in enemy territory long enough. A Jetpacker can rush into the hive and unload a few clips into it before getting eaten up. A HA squad gets worn down by constant attrition and is destroyed. In both cases, their efforts are rendered null and void as the aliens eventually heal their hive back to full health. Therefore, to shorten these games, I'd suggest making every significant hit count. Welders have a drastically repair rate for the CC (This, of course, applies only to combat games), whilst the hive regenerates slowly (5hp per second?) and gorges are removed. So long as someone manages to damage the objective considerably, the game is one step closer to its conclusion.
Combat games are either very long or very short. If aliens do not destroy the marines in the first few minutes with focus skulks, the game slowly turns into a boring drawn-out stalemate that lasts much longer than your average classic game. But wasn't combat designed to be mindless, fast paced FPS fun?
The problem lies with the inability of either site to sustain an offensive in enemy territory long enough. A Jetpacker can rush into the hive and unload a few clips into it before getting eaten up. A HA squad gets worn down by constant attrition and is destroyed. In both cases, their efforts are rendered null and void as the aliens eventually heal their hive back to full health. Therefore, to shorten these games, I'd suggest making every significant hit count. Welders have a drastically repair rate for the CC (This, of course, applies only to combat games), whilst the hive regenerates slowly (5hp per second?) and gorges are removed. So long as someone manages to damage the objective considerably, the game is one step closer to its conclusion.
Comments
Very rarely I have seen an unwinnable game.
For some reason Noobs pick Rines - most people with experience go aliens (how could you not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
In Aussie servers once it looks like a stalemate is gonna happen the aliens pull together and plan an attack and 9 times out of 10 can pull it off within 2/3 strikes.
So could rines but they more often then not are not organised *shrugs* just the way it seems.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yes we want to teach noobs that you can't heal hives or cc's<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, I'm really tired of this argument of Combat being a newb tutorial game mode. If newbies wean themselves onto Classic through lots of Combat, then that's great, but Combat will never do anything but improve peoples' twitch skills. You can not learn NS through CO, and if something is making Combat as a whole less fun then taking care of it should take priority over making it completely similiar to Classic. The majority of players playing Combat are not newbies. I know that on the server I play on, we <i>only</i> play Combat to fill the game up for NS; if we had more people we'd just go Classic only.
However, I think we could address this problem by creating a formula to calculate the healing rate of the CC/hive.
Instead of healing/welding doing the same amount of healing, make the rate of healing linear in regard to the amount of damage.
less than 10% damage - heals at full rate
10-25% damage - heals at 75% normal rate
25-50% damage - heals at 50% normal rate
50-75% damage - heals at 25% normal rate
75-99% damage - heals at 10% normal rate
So the more damage done to a hive/CC, the longer it would take to heal and the more likely a repeated attack would damage it further. Otherwise a team would have to devote too many people to repair duty which would only make them more vulnerable.
In this way we could leave things as is and only make a modest change to deal with this issue.
Regards,
Savant
A couple of GLs or shotties can kill a 100% hive in no time. However, I'm all for removal of welders.
With a welder, you can recover people's armor, which increases HA survivablility by a lot, and can make it so marines can recover after a skulk runs in and bites them twice. Without the ability to heal armor ever, marines will be hurthing.
Tweak CC healing rates, don't remove the welder.
Nah it takes a while, much shorter than onos vs cc.
Nah it takes a while, much shorter than onos vs cc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time it. Get 3 GLs (lvl2 or 3) vs 3 onos.
EDIT: To be clear, I don't know the answer already, but my experience leads me to believe that it will be a difference of seconds one way or the other.
Now, in games that are atypical, marines and aliens might fight in a middle ground area for a prolonged period of time. This isn't a stalemate, either. It's just the marines not making any concerted efforts to go for the hive. Usually, when they do, the aliens are pushed back enough and the hive is inevitably destroyed, and usually in a shorter time than it takes for aliens to destroy the CC, probably because of the marines' ranged weapons.
The games that marines win are often much shorter, but because marines don't win as often (not because of imbalance), most games tend to be extended Alamos. So really, welders and gorges have little to do with the length of games, and if anything add some much needed strategy to combat. Besides, gorges and welders are a good way to stop one alien or one marine from winning the game. While it does happen, it isn't often.
Now, in games that are atypical, marines and aliens might fight in a middle ground area for a prolonged period of time. This isn't a stalemate, either. It's just the marines not making any concerted efforts to go for the hive. Usually, when they do, the aliens are pushed back enough and the hive is inevitably destroyed, and usually in a shorter time than it takes for aliens to destroy the CC, probably because of the marines' ranged weapons.
The games that marines win are often much shorter, but because marines don't win as often (not because of imbalance), most games tend to be extended Alamos. So really, welders and gorges have little to do with the length of games, and if anything add some much needed strategy to combat. Besides, gorges and welders are a good way to stop one alien or one marine from winning the game. While it does happen, it isn't often. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you have a very valid point. Nonetheless, look at the amount of times the hive COULD have been destroyed if it hadn't been for those two or three gorges healspraying and webbing up the entire place.
However, everytime some some damage is dealt to the objective, it should be some irrepearable damage. If you let a skulk chomp on your CC because the team was too preoccupied with shooting that annoying fade then you shouldn't be able to weld the CC up again. Steady attrition should have a far more devastating effect than it currently has.
Secondly, gorges boost defensive capability with webs and healspray, which is precisely what we want to avoid. Defense should always be weaker than offense. If the reverse is true then long, monotonus bloodbaths games will always be the norm.
For example, you could make 10% levels. When 10% damage is done to the CC/hive, then the max hitpoints drops down 10%. So if a 10000 hitpoint CC takes 1000 points of damage, then it's max hitpoints now drops to 9000. This would encourage group strikes by each team to attempt to drop it down to the next level.
For example, you could make 10% levels. When 10% damage is done to the CC/hive, then the max hitpoints drops down 10%. So if a 10000 hitpoint CC takes 1000 points of damage, then it's max hitpoints now drops to 9000. This would encourage group strikes by each team to attempt to drop it down to the next level. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea, but at even tradeoffs like that it's practically the same as making it unhealable since it's not hard at all to do that much damage, especially for marines. If we're going for a middle road, maybe for each 10% checkpoint the hive/CC max HP goes down 5%? So when the CC hits 90% HP the max goes down to 95%, and even if it's welded then the max HP will go down again when it hits 80%. Maybe it could also be an even tradeoff like you said, but at intervals of 25% or so so it takes a relatively serious attack?
For example, you could make 10% levels. When 10% damage is done to the CC/hive, then the max hitpoints drops down 10%. So if a 10000 hitpoint CC takes 1000 points of damage, then it's max hitpoints now drops to 9000. This would encourage group strikes by each team to attempt to drop it down to the next level. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
best combat idea yet.
welding and gorging are important parts of the teams, and shouldn't be left out, this is a good compromise <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
awww does it stop your crack abusing bunny hopping/jetpacking like a insane monkey on PCP with a GL around the hive? How dare the developers ruin YOUR fun by keeping gorges in combat.
having a time limit..
Server settable (so people who like their 20 minutes games can still have them)
Make the CC not able to take damage... And thereby force the marines to attack, they have to destroy the hive within the time limit or they lose.
Skills it teaches:
Aliens:
how to ambush, how to move around and hit/run
Marines:
How to move in a group and attack together.
Both of which are pretty important in Classic.
The thing that would have to change is the health given to aliens by the hive would have to be reduced. Since evolved aliens in their hive are a tough thing to take out even with 3-4 SG's and a couple of HMG's..
Welders would still have a use, (welding teammates, armoury), and so would gorges....
One of the nice things in TFC is the fact that it's impossible to camp the enemies spawn, in NS.. you are forced to camp the enemy spawn in order to end the game.
I also think this needs to be addressed, and making the CC inactive furniture would do that. (since Alien spawns tend to be much more varied in location while MS's are traditionally easy to hold with 1-2 aliens)
BTW, Trevelyan, funniest bitterly sarcastic remarkl aI have read in a long time.
most useful config in combat.
let's look at another config;
l2 heavy armor, l hmg welder resupply.
with proposed 1 pt HA you could get an l2 hmg or l3 shotty.
not good imo.
3 l3 shottys HA vs an 2 fades and an onos = death my friend.
unless the aliens are really really good, your fighting a losing battle.
think before you suggest stuff. altering one aspect of the game affects everything around it.
I.E 10-20 (whatever) min games and the team that does the most damage to the hive/cc in that time wins?
I.E 10-20 (whatever) min games and the team that does the most damage to the hive/cc in that time wins? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A new respwan system would be needed then. After you kill off the marine team, it is quite easy to keep them dead.
You could just go back to the massive wave system....
However, I think we could address this problem by creating a formula to calculate the healing rate of the CC/hive.
Instead of healing/welding doing the same amount of healing, make the rate of healing linear in regard to the amount of damage.
less than 10% damage - heals at full rate
10-25% damage - heals at 75% normal rate
25-50% damage - heals at 50% normal rate
50-75% damage - heals at 25% normal rate
75-99% damage - heals at 10% normal rate
So the more damage done to a hive/CC, the longer it would take to heal and the more likely a repeated attack would damage it further. Otherwise a team would have to devote too many people to repair duty which would only make them more vulnerable.
In this way we could leave things as is and only make a modest change to deal with this issue.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^