Beta 4 Poll

Flayra · April 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">Especially regarding Combat</div> Go crazy. I'm quite happy with Classic at the moment, and so this post is mostly in regards to Combat.

One more thing: we tested the Combat changes on a small scale before releasing, but didn't realize quite how much the growing alien XP was going to help the aliens. We'll be giving the marines a boost shortly, so take that into account.

severijn · April 2004

When a team gets totally destroyed in two seconds near the enemy hive, you respawn way too slow with a large team, so the aliens actually just need to celeritylerk, blink or skulkrush in and one or two keep killing the marine that respawns, while the others kill the CC, while if the alien team gets annihilated near the CC, they can all respawn before the marines can reach their hive.

That_Annoying_Kid · April 2004

beta 4 makes NS a bit more polished, but it's still a beta. NS has only improved since 1.00 and I'm sure that is what it will keep doing.

Map tweaks are always good, and the BUS is keeping many a people on there toes

Kayomani · April 2004

I aggree with severijn the new spawn system is too slow, I was on the Yo clan combat server last night and cheesy has done a good job with reprogramming the spawn system on there not sure how it would work with a lower number of people though. Go check it out ^^

I also prefered the old weapon sounds, no insult to Max's new ones.

rknZ · April 2004

Being back the Beta1 level based spawn system!!

Exer · April 2004

I like the fact that it encourages marines to hump the armoury less and move out in groups. But the aliens are a bit too strong with the free XP.

btw, what ever happened to the reload animations?

Starchy · April 2004

Taking into account the disadvantages of the spawn system it does however encourage teamplay on a larger scale, and I'm not talking about spawn camping. The original plan for combat was for short 5-15 minute games. This almost guarantees that the game will not go on for more than 20 mins, my longest game on b4 combat has been 16 minutes. It encourages teamplay in regards that if more than three/four people die on your team you don't keep pushing on the hive like in b3, but you fall back to guard base until your team-mates re-spawn. A couple are to stay in base while the rest attack, say if there are two heavy armoured defending base and four jet-packers attacking the hive will ensure that you can stay alive for quite a while. This is the same for aliens, don't all rush at the same time. This, in my opinion, is better than the b4 purley because in b3 you had the 30+ minutes of the same old boring gameplay. Some might argue that b4 is all the same because of the repeated spawn-camping but with great teamplay and a good attitude towards it, I feel the people complaining now will eventually come to like it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> And if they don't, they can always leave. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Delarosa · April 2004

Flay... talk to Joev, have him explain his respawn system idea again... i think it's worth listening to once more...

just his change alone would help balance out combat...

todd1Ok · April 2004

tbh, classic is good, with the one exception of the lerk. removal of the energy cost of flapping your wings is bad, because, if you wanted to use abilitys while flying, you got adren. now, they can happily use abilitys while flying without adren, because lerks know they wont run out of precious energy and can mash the space bar, making the lerk a combat role alien, something it was wasnt really meant to be.

but meh, what do i know...

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

JustMe8 · April 2004

It's always good with bug fixes, and the map changes except for ns_nothing have been for the better, but NS does still imo lack the ability to outsmart the other team by using clever tactics, rather than just only skill. I don't see an end to the linear marine gameplay with PGs, which is, unless you really own the other team, the ONLY viable tactic. I've been commanding for .BM since 1.04 and during my 1,5 years with NS, 2.01 has been the most fun to command in because of the many viable strategies.

I realise all this can seem a bit harsh, but i'm a tactician by nature (RA, SC:BW, WC3) and from a commanders POV i would get bored very quickly if there was only 1 way to win against a good player. Maybe NS is supposed to be a FPS with bits of RTS, but i have always hoped it would be a RTS/FPS, but atm I just can't see NS heading towards more of a RTS after the lastest patches.

Wirhe · April 2004

Even though it's 'especially Combat', it still includes Classic -therefore I voted for "much better" solely because of the higher skulk speed and less marine-dominated game. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />

Hopefully the next version is the final v3.

MadcapMagician · April 2004

Pardon my ignorance but why does this go in general discussion and not in the public beta forum?

Anyway, yeah, alien XP is a bit too fast, but in general I like it. I think give it a few weeks and we'll see a much better games. Right now marines are still struggling to move out as a group. Within a few weeks I think we'll see better marine rushing with more teamwork.

There are few a still maps that need fixing.

The port engine hive on nancy has this grated floor that you can't build or drop stuff on as comm.

Angst has some doors that onos can't fit through easily.

And will the fade attack range be fixed so that they can hit a crouching marine? Personally this is the single most annoying aspect of NS right now.

Also, I didn't see it in the change log so I assume it hasn't been fixed, there is a bug where you can shoot with unlimited ammo from an armory, will this be fixed?

Redford · April 2004

1 onos = 3 marine deaths.

1 alien death = 3 marine deaths.

aliens respawn faster.

Marines lose.

That is the synopsis of combat, currently.

Supernorn · April 2004

I voted worse due to the spawn rate in Combat being a pain in the backside.

Wave spawning has its cons, But I'd much rather be able to play than watch me and my entire team painfully spawn one at a time and be instantly mauled to death by a single skulk.

Asal_The_Unforgiving · April 2004

With a update to fix the lerks and their madness-inducing divebombs and climbs, it would be acceptable. Perhaps also have combat spawn at a rate of 2-per? Just my thoughts.

Thanks Flayra.

Dog_Urine · April 2004

I like it better for the most part. But then there is one big problem w/CO before you would have maybe 1 out of 10 games be extremely long but personally that wasn't a problem as long as it wasn't over an hour, but now every 4 out of 5 matches maybe lasts 5 min it seems like from spawn kills.

I wish we could a little more in between thats all. But I glad you guys are always trying. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

CommunistWithAGun · April 2004

Dying in combat should be a very bad thing for your team and beta 4 brings us closer to that, people don't like to play combat how its meant to be played. 2 hour killathon stalemates were horrible. The spawn system is great. Games actually end.

Narfwak · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (supernorn2000 @ Apr 26 2004, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I voted worse due to the spawn rate in Combat being a pain in the backside.

Wave spawning has its cons, But I'd much rather be able to play than watch me and my entire team painfully spawn one at a time and be instantly mauled to death by a single skulk.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
My sentiments, exactly. I also do not like the changes to the lerk; the lack of any factor limiting lerk maneuverability allows lerks to mouse wheel flap up and down, ceiling to floor, at incredible speeds. A player doing this renders himself practically invulnerable, as he is moving far too quickly to be shot down. Obviously, the lerk can't directly attack marines while doing this, but it can use spores, umbra, or primal scream, making it a serious headache to have to deal with.

I recommend that some limiting factor be reintroduced to the lerk flapping; either a maximum amount of flaps per second, or an energy cost (albeit a smaller one than in 3.0b3).

Note: I wouldn't have foreseen this behavior from the lerk change, either. This doesn't change the fact that it is a major problem.

Forlorn · April 2004

Aliens getting exp over time is a great change.

Other than that aliens are overpowered, big time, just like in beta 3, 2, 1, and since combat was first made.

Insomnia · April 2004

I always believe that you should force the aliens or marines to capture a point in combat so that you force both sides to move out.

Anyway. If you cap the lerk speed on the vertical access to 550 withouth celerity and 800 with celerity, i think beta 4 would be a lot better.

lagger · April 2004

I voted a little worse. My reasons behind this isnt because the games are shorter as I like this very much, but that you spend alot of time in the spawn que.

Dont get me wrong, I like how you spawn by 1's instead of waves by the cc killing anything that was attacking, but I dont like how you must stay dead for long periods of time because there is no way to stay alive during an alien/marine attack. What I would prefer to see is the same slow spawn but they are spawned into a protected room much like s&i (Science and Industry) and can gorup up themselves instead of just getting 20v1ed.

JazzX · April 2004

I also said slightly worse as a successful early rush (usually by the aliens) means spending the next two or three minutes in an inevitable cycle of waiting in line to spawn, dying immediately and then watching your teammates go through the same. That said I'd really like to see the current setup in action when Combat is more balanced.

**Edited for clarity**

ThE_HeRo · April 2004

It is significantly worse, because of the lerks and the spawning system. I'm not really sure why the spawning system was changed the way it was, especally due to massive complaints from beta 3 about spawncamping, this just made it worse. I'm sure y'all had your reasons, though. At any rate, no energy cost is a step in the right direction, it just had unforseeable consequences. Cap the lerk vertical speed to the same as the horizontal (I guess you can do that?), and you have a winnar. The lerk actually feels like something worth 30 res now, and I give y'all props for that.

Licho · April 2004

I like the new lerk in normal NS (except the bug with excessive vertical speed using scripts or jump @ mouse wheel) and better balance it brinks to NS.

Narfwak · April 2004

Here's a post similar to one I made in the veteran forums. It reiterates what a few of you have said, but I think it sums up my opinion on this issue very well:

In my opinion, pancake lerking is not the biggest problem with the change to the lerk. In 3.0b3, a player had to choose whether he or she wanted to be an attack lerk that used celerity to execute quick hit-and-run attacks a la the fade, or whether he or she wanted to be a support lerk that used adrenaline to spam spores, umbra, etc. Removing the energy cost for flight effectively eliminates this strategic choice between celerity and adrenaline.

I didn't see any reason for this change, and I thought the 3.0b3 lerk to be the most balanced and fun implementation of the lerk thus far; I recommend that the lerk be completely reverted back to this implementation. The cost should probably be lowered a bit for the lerk to be more viable. I think a cost somewhere in the range of 23 to 28 would be good.

Licho · April 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Narfwak @ Apr 27 2004, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I didn't see any reason for this change, and I thought the 3.0b3 lerk to be the most balanced and fun implementation of the lerk thus far; I recommend that the lerk be completely reverted back to this implementation. The cost should probably be lowered a bit for the lerk to be more viable. I think a cost somewhere in the range of 23 to 28 would be good.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Sorry to quote you in this thread, but this is simply wrong. Lerk was not used much because it was not fun (with constant crawling behind bigger aliens or hiding inside vent). Flying was too riscy and too predictable and considering 1 SG hit kills lerk, lerk needs mobility. Also now you have choice between celer and adren, before 3b4 adren was very very important and I never saw anyone good with lerk using celer before.

Flayra · April 2004

Moved back to General forum, my bad.

ShadowSlay · April 2004

classic is fine, and the lerk is fine too unless u have a person using a script to fly really fast. IMO the long combat games of 3.03 were the best, and wave spawning is a must. i hate the aliens gaining xp now...its way to cheap in small co games, and i liked to go one on one with ppl....now i cant(they can just run around without even seeing me and out lvl me). big co games r still kinda fun(15 vs 15) until they get onos or alot of fades, then the spawn system screws marines. i think u should at least make 3 ppl spawn at a time and bring back the "higher lvl u are the longer it takes to respawn" thing. other then that its pretty good.

Ryse_Slade · April 2004

Combat games are shorter now because the marine base spam camping is history. Combat has definitely improved.

Classic is still no fun for aliens in large games so I don't play it anymore.

e_Nadagast · April 2004

Flayra, please help skulks. They get absolutely demolished by decent or better marines, and it might take some emphasis off of Fades... Also, I'd suggest not putting so much importance on the second hive. As the game is currently, if the aliens get the 2nd hive, they pretty much win. If they don't, they pretty much lose (unless the marines are *extremely* slow to capitalize on it). And with the Skulk vs LA/LMG marine game as it is now, marines dominate res almost every game until the fades come out, and even then they dominate, it's just not as bad. Alien's cannot control/put up nodes like marines can because of the 25 cost for them and the one by one alien resource system. If you have 3 aliens with 10 res each, you can put up 0 nodes, however the marines would be able to put up 2. This means the marines can just spam nodes all over the map and losing one isn't a big deal, but losing one node for the aliens is a *big deal*, and can change the course of a game.

StoatBringer · April 2004

When I first played b4 Combat I (like lots of others) immediately thought "Oh my god, it's ruined!" due to the spawn system. After I'd played it for a few hours it didn't bother me any longer.
Combat games are supposed to be relatively brief, and lots of us know how frustrating it is to have a stalemate combat which just drags on and on.

Now, if you allow the enemy to overrun your base you are doomed, and rightfully so.

As for aliens gaining experience over time, this is very good if you join a game late. When all the other aliens are level 8+ and you start as a level 1 skulk it's almost hopeless. The same applies to marines, but at least they have ranged weapons from the start. I suspect that once you reach higher levels (4+) the time-experience makes little or no difference, but it's certainly a help at the beginning.

Beta 4 Poll

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