Marine Is Strong/ Alien Weak
superelf
Join Date: 2003-05-05 Member: 16077Members
Join Date: 2003-05-05 Member: 16077Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Alien Need way of a counterattack</div> sorry. I don't speak English well.
<a href='http://namomo.nownuri.net/temp/assa.zip' target='_blank'>http://namomo.nownuri.net/temp/assa.zip</a>
It's Korean user's Demo at ns_veil, ayumi.
He is good skiller. and alien user's skill weak. but there server set
"mp_team1damagepercent 80".
This option effect that Marine's attack damage reduce 80%.
Kharra weak. That trouble of origin are several.
First - alien don't has way of counterattack.
Marine has several way of counterattack.
Hero marine can had been infiltrated into hive. next open hiden gate -
and kill hive. all alien user can't guard hive always. OC is very stupid
<img src='http://namomo.nownuri.net/temp/oc1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Some commander use this strategy. marine no attack OC. only build gate or
pass alien guard point.
alien has many guard points. there is maps' importants ground
(etc : dubble resource or center of map)
and hive point, can hive attack point by siege cannon.
gorge never build oc at all guard points. but if gorge build oc then never block
pass marine. (see upside screen shot. plz)
If alien had advantage over marine then marine can reversal.
other way of counterattack is use heavy or jetpack.
If good skiller get Heavy armor - alien slay him very hard. jetpack too.
sorry. I don't speak English well. I don't know that everybody undetstand my word.
what alien has way of counterattack?
hiden alien doesn't break marine base. beacon can call all marine.
1 hive onos is only Big skulk. Fade, lerk skulk never win group of Heavy + shotgun or Hmg.
Alien does't get 2hive then only wait for time when marine slayed they. but marine can kill hive easy.
<a href='http://namomo.nownuri.net/temp/assa.zip' target='_blank'>http://namomo.nownuri.net/temp/assa.zip</a>
It's Korean user's Demo at ns_veil, ayumi.
He is good skiller. and alien user's skill weak. but there server set
"mp_team1damagepercent 80".
This option effect that Marine's attack damage reduce 80%.
Kharra weak. That trouble of origin are several.
First - alien don't has way of counterattack.
Marine has several way of counterattack.
Hero marine can had been infiltrated into hive. next open hiden gate -
and kill hive. all alien user can't guard hive always. OC is very stupid
<img src='http://namomo.nownuri.net/temp/oc1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Some commander use this strategy. marine no attack OC. only build gate or
pass alien guard point.
alien has many guard points. there is maps' importants ground
(etc : dubble resource or center of map)
and hive point, can hive attack point by siege cannon.
gorge never build oc at all guard points. but if gorge build oc then never block
pass marine. (see upside screen shot. plz)
If alien had advantage over marine then marine can reversal.
other way of counterattack is use heavy or jetpack.
If good skiller get Heavy armor - alien slay him very hard. jetpack too.
sorry. I don't speak English well. I don't know that everybody undetstand my word.
what alien has way of counterattack?
hiden alien doesn't break marine base. beacon can call all marine.
1 hive onos is only Big skulk. Fade, lerk skulk never win group of Heavy + shotgun or Hmg.
Alien does't get 2hive then only wait for time when marine slayed they. but marine can kill hive easy.
Comments
Bunny hopping Skulk is not weak. but all user doesn't use bunny hopping
Only small group of user can use bunny hop.
gorge... yeah. 2.0 gorge is strong. but 3.0 gorge very weak.
gorge is center of aliens' strategy. but marine easy kill him.
third origin is marine can use bunny hop.
<a href='http://myhome.naver.com/superelfs/mbhop.wmv' target='_blank'>http://myhome.naver.com/superelfs/mbhop.wmv</a>
plz use - save as file. (use right mouse button)
it's marine's bunny hopping.
back side jump doesn't has delay. and twice jump has small delay.
this bunny hopping use that.
I can always jump of back side bunny hopping. that faster forward run.
that has big effect at fight of alien.
fourth origin is hard control play to alien.
marine play not hard. only shot and go to way by commander order.
but alien is only think alone and move.
last orgin is distress beacon.
old version (1.0x, 2.0x) alien has one way of counterattack.
It's empty marine base attack. (of weak defence)
now doesn't attack because distress beacon.
If alien attack marine base then commander use distress beacon.
all live and dead marine call base. and slay alien unit. next marine use gate what
move ago postsion.
It's very sucks
Fade=uber god if a good player is using it. You must use stomp+umbra against heavies. Against anything else Fades will own.
Advice: Get better alien players.
plz - first view demo. that is game at korea server. korean marine's skill good.
and there set "mp_team1damagepercent 80"
marine lmg damage is only 8.
bunny hopping - marine bunny hop not forward jumping. It's only back jumping.
onos and umbra - if onos and lerk attack some point then hero marine build
gate at hive point or hive siege point. hive down very faster.
Anyways, about the pg thing... In clan play, 6v6, the 2nd hive is guardable. Drop ocs in the hive and the marines will be forced to take them out, buying you valuable time. What most clans do is guard the building hive(with fades), once the hive goes up the aliens pretty much already won. It's very hard for marines to come back from 2 hives. The marines can sneak up a phase gate as much as they want, it won't be too hard for the aliens to kill them with umbra/leaping skulks/cara celerity meta fades.
Natural-Selection public game very different from Clan match.
Korean server max player set 26. 13 marine fight with 13 alien.
Clan match rule and play case of strategy doesn't able use there.
Ns only regard clan macth? I don't think that.
movie link broken? I use another link.
plz see movie.
-
I think the point in the post is how marine's have a long range advantage... which is ok, however once an alien gets within biting range the marine can bunny hop backwards, and after that move like a crack infested monkey... making it insanely difficult to bite him. THe problem doesn't lie in the small hops marines are able to do, but with the fact that the skulk, lerk and fade's attack are to narrow and short. people have stated that if the skulks attack were made larger but not longer it would SOMEHOW unbalance the game... giving the skulk an advantage in CQC. My responce to those statements... WTH ARE YOU THINKING. of course skulks/lerks/and fades are supposed to be good in CQC, how come when the skulk reaches the marine the battle is only 50 or even 25% over? It should BE OVER... you know, chomp chomp dead...
right now a marine jumping backwards combined with knockback will send a marine flying across even the biggest of rooms in the NS maps... its sad when it happens to as the skulk is often forced to run or die trying in that situation because it has no chance of closing the gap a 2nd time (especially without leap).
Considering NS is currently in a public beta... why can we not try a version without knockback? or make the skulk/fade/lerk attack wider and higher? (onos is a gore with a horn, it deserves a long narrow attack range)
But it <b>SHOULD</b> be. While the best games do happen with no more than 10 players per side, balance wise, the number of players should be an <b>engine</b> limit, not a gameplay limit. I'd love to play a 16vs16 game, if it wasn't so horribly lopsided towards mariens, mostly due to the current Resource Distribution System.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering NS is currently in a public beta... why can we not try a version without knockback? or make the skulk/fade/lerk attack wider and higher? (onos is a gore with a horn, it deserves a long narrow attack range) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, the many heated discussions about this <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> While I think the intended knockback is fine (1-2 feet, to prevent quick sucessive bites that kill before you can blink) its the bugged knockback that throws a marine across the room. I belive its been noted as a bug, so if it gets fixed, I think this problem would be solved. All it takes then is a little skill and aim.
Nice video Superelf. Thats... disturbing.
But it <b>SHOULD</b> be. While the best games do happen with no more than 10 players per side, balance wise, the number of players should be an <b>engine</b> limit, not a gameplay limit. I'd love to play a 16vs16 game, if it wasn't so horribly lopsided towards mariens, mostly due to the current Resource Distribution System.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If NS wants to be more successful than it is now, it's gonna need to become scalable for different game sizes. People LIKE the big games. It's a shame that because of the inherent problems with the game's mechanics, they can't really be played all that well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ahh, the many heated discussions about this <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> While I think the intended knockback is fine (1-2 feet, to prevent quick sucessive bites that kill before you can blink) its the bugged knockback that throws a marine across the room. I belive its been noted as a bug, so if it gets fixed, I think this problem would be solved. All it takes then is a little skill and aim. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget how cheap arms lab upgrades are in relation to how effective they are in larger games (Folorn actually made a really big post about this some time back, along with res distribution for kharaa from rfk, I think)
Superelf: I commend you for making this post as in depth as you did. Quite a bit of interesting info contained within, though it's fairly well known how powerful marines are in general when used effectively.
I personally would like to see a total overhaul in weapon damage/refire rate, and air based knockback completely removed to make it all more...user friendly, I guess. Being gunned down in 0.5 seconds by a marine because you're not bunny hopping at top speed just totally blows the fun out of the game for a lot of people, as does biting a marine and sending him careening down a corridor because of knockback (Before anyone starts, this happened to me against 3 successive marines in 1 spot yesterday...talk about bad luck)
At least 3 areas will need scaling with number of people.
1. Alien spawn rate. In a 10+v10+ game, the marines can just keep up a relentless pressure on the aliens - build 3-4 IP's, build PG's close to the aliens and just keep up a relentless, mindless rushing - even if you loose 2 marines for every alien, you will still win the war of attrition. Soon enough, you will be playing a game of 10 marines vs 4-5 aliens, keeping half the alien team in spawnqueue at all times.
2. Alien res income. The real problem here is that the time before an alien gets enough res to become useful - ie, reach 50 res to build a hive or go fade - gets longer and longer for every addition player added to the alien team. This, coupled with the extremly weak skulk and the power of the standard marine, means larger games automatically gives the marines more time before they have to leave the slaying of skulks stage and actually start to fight.
3. Marine tech rate. As Forlorn has pointed out, the cost for teching up marines are fixed, while the advantage is multiplied by the number of players. This, coupled with point 2, means that the larger the game, the more time the marines have before they have to face stronger alien lifeforms. As an upgraded marine, especially a lvl 2 armor marine with its 4 bites to kill, is rather superior to the standard skulk, this means that the marines will dominate the map, and take more res towers and kill more alien res towers, slowing down the aliens even further.
It might be possible to keep #3 as is, while fiddling with #1 and #2. Personally, I'd propose putting a max-time-in-spawn-queue time, say at 20 seconds. If you haven't spawned after 20 sec, you spawn no matter what.
Adjusting the alien income rate to be fixed at the current 6 player rate might be too much, but if you make the max res income rate fixed at the current rate for 6 players (at 4 marine players) and down to 8 players at 16, you might get close what you will need.
It's going to be hard to get the right constants there to make it balanced, but as it isn't very balanced now, you can hardly get into a worse situation.
Drop CC, OCs shoot CC for next 3 hours.
Drop PG and build un-interrupted.
All points are valid I guess..
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would love it if the bugged knockback is fixed... it seems i have the worst luck as a hive 1 skulk <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Knockback sucks for aliens...I've been on the receiving end.
but - It talk about public game. not say about small game
but - It talk about public game. not say about small game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes superelf, we understand what you saying, however what we are saying is that this is the only solution right now <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> If you want a balanced game, the server limit can't be set higher than 20 players. It sucks, I'd like to see it change, but we just have to live with it right now.
I played a game today, we locked down 2 hives and didnt keep the alien res points under control. We lost when 3 oni and 2 fades attacked our phase gates and ips... They had DCs, we were busy upgrading armoury, but it was a bit late...
It has next effect.
1. Gorge's armor increase 75
carapace armor increase 150
2. Skulk's armor increase 15
carapace armor increase 50
3. manual respawn for 1 hive alien. (cost dynamic personal resource)
I think it's not bad. also it's not perpect balance.
but I think it better don't do anything.
Note:
O The NS2AMX Module is required
O The Fun Module is required
20 and 18 isnt good marines are still overpowered, id say MAX 16 players
anything over that will (unless marines are really bad) result in a rine win
How about this?
It has next effect.
1. Gorge's armor increase 75
carapace armor increase 150
2. dynamic skulk armor change by marine number
marine's number - Skulk's armor / carapace armor
lower 3 10/ 40
4 marineuser - 10/41
5 marineuser - 11/42
6 marineuser - 11/43
7 marineuser - 12/44
8 marineuser - 12/45
9 marineuser - 13/46
10 marineuser - 13/47
11 marineuser - 14/48
12 marineuser - 14/49
13 marineuser - 15/50
.
.
.
3. manual respawn for 1 hive alien. (cost dynamic personal resource)
4. Gorge get more resource
(marine team number /100) X kharra rt number
----------------------------------------------------------- = gorge resource bonuse
gorge number -(gorge_number/2)
it's for large classic only server.
Note:
O The NS2AMX Module is required