Upgrades - Who Needs Em!
ShotgunEd
Join Date: 2004-01-02 Member: 24966Members
Join Date: 2004-01-02 Member: 24966Members
I'm really turning away from getting upgrades as a comm now. I much prefer to get MT and hand out heavy weapons asap. Then I suppose I have the choice of upgrades or HA+JP. Upgrades will cost me 180 to reasearch. JP+HA will cost me 115. TBH the HA will make up for the lack of armour ups, so no need for them. The heavy weapons will make up for the lack of ammo ups, so no need for them.
I'll admit there are problems in that it can be harder to control res without upgrades. So unless you have marines that can shoot, your screwed. At the point where your team has the heavy weps though, you should be able to control the map as you see fit.
I'll admit there are problems in that it can be harder to control res without upgrades. So unless you have marines that can shoot, your screwed. At the point where your team has the heavy weps though, you should be able to control the map as you see fit.
Comments
DEVIL!
Look, man. Let's think about this from a logical point of view.
Okay, standard MT rush.
1 IP
1 Armory
1 obs--> MT
That's 85 res. Now you can cap another RT. It'll be about 2+ minutes into the game when MT kicks in and you gain map control for about 2 minutes until fades start showing up. Somewhere around this time, you advanced your armory, so that's another 30 res down.
And then you get screwed. You need 80 res to get your prototype lab functioning, and then 20 res per marine after that. Even then, fades will rape your marines, since they take 2 hits to kill. If you dole out shotguns, a competent fade is still able to blink in, swipe once or twice, blink out. You can't recover your weapons on an offensive, you'll be forced to play defensive until you get enough res to cover both the Proto/Ha stuff, and give out the equipment for them.
I'd rather have the upgrades. While level 3 upgrades are debateable for cost effectiveness, you should at least get 1/2 (armor, weapons) upgrade in every game.
Your laying alot on marine weapon skills. This might be a viable strategy with talented players ,but can quickly come back to bite you when you've lost your initial investment of resources.
FUN SIZE MARINES!(Get it? They only take 2 biteS!!! omg Im so clever!!11)
HMGs sound great, but I would rather have a level 3 shotgun.
**** Rapier7 has been promoted to Commander ****
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**** BobtheALien LvL3-shotgunned lastHive ****
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Without upgrades, you simply cannot hold ground: Your marines die within two bites, and they just can't fight back. If they can't fight back, you can't hold res nodes. If you don't hold res nodes, you don't have enough res to tech up. If you don't have res to tech up, your strategy is useless.
While MT is an extremely useful upgrade to have, it is by all means no substitute for arms lab upgrades.
Even if your marines <i>can</i> shoot, there is nothing they can do against a fade besides tickle them with those feathers you call "LMGs".
I've seen many games won with little or no upgrades, but this requires quick and effective total domination of the opposing team; something that is hard to achieve if you're playing against half-competent players.
I'll admit there are problems in that it can be harder to control res without upgrades. So unless you have marines that can shoot, your screwed. At the point where your team has the heavy weps though, you should be able to control the map as you see fit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would work only if you have a team with exellent aim. Besides the heavy armor is not very helpfull without armor upgs.
This is so risky, but it almost makes sense. HMGs and HAs, even not-upgraded, tear up skulks, lerks, and gorges, and they make fades think twice. As long as all those heavy armor guys are like PIN-POINT PERFECT with their welding on quickswitch though, those 200-armor heavys are going to be down near the 80's before they know it.
It can be done though, certainly, if you're better than the alien team in just about every category.
If I remember, you need an arms lab in the first place to put down the proto. So you're going to end up with an arms lab at some point. Armor1 really REALLY helps before you have heavys. Just get it and ignore the arms lab from that point I guess? I love it when the commander armory rushes and gets LMGs out there for the skulks and fades. Heavy weapons REALLY help, and with heavys, you have all the armor you need even at zero ups.
Yeah, if you lose the heavys, you're screwed though. That's why this isn't great if there are onos in the field or the second hive is up.
Everytime you see skulk just massacre your marines. everytime you see your 4 hvys die to an onos charging straight at them. You'll realize just how wrong not getting upgrades is.
yes.
of course or wings will compensate for our fragile skulkish legs, and our gas for our parasie atack
gg.
freaking retarrdddd
no upgrades go go handicap! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
When it DOES work, its still hard to win because of the complete lack of upgrades.
The win is the most satisfying, though.
Without upgrades, you simply cannot hold ground: Your marines die within two bites, and they just can't fight back. If they can't fight back, you can't hold res nodes. If you don't hold res nodes, you don't have enough res to tech up. If you don't have res to tech up, your strategy is useless.
While MT is an extremely useful upgrade to have, it is by all means no substitute for arms lab upgrades.
Even if your marines <i>can</i> shoot, there is nothing they can do against a fade besides tickle them with those feathers you call "LMGs".
I've seen many games won with little or no upgrades, but this requires quick and effective total domination of the opposing team; something that is hard to achieve if you're playing against half-competent players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
steal my thunder why dontcho!
upgrades are a critical part of winning, the ability to take and deal more damage is *always* helpfull
It's a bad strategy, don't defend it, only flame it.
You've lost your mind somewhere between fading.
Fact of the matter is, theres 3 generic ways to spend earlygame res :
- A1 rush (45 res - leaves 25) [research : 60]
- MT rush ( 60 res - leaves 10) [research : 90]
- AA rush (30 res - leaves 40) [research : 180]
All assuming you build an IP/Armory too. Then of course theres the node rush, costing as much as you're willing to risk or +15 per node the aliens can walk towards.
When we look at this, we can conclude a few things - both popular strategies, a1 and MT, are so because they provide a strong advantage in the earlygame. Most of you can from experience probably also say that, unless you're phaserushing someplacece, Motion Tracking aids you more in map control than Armor 1. Motion tracking infact lets your marines be super-aggressive for those up to 150 seconds between the research and Fades appearing - its likely they can capture every node minus the secondary and primary hive with some basic coordination.
By the 3 minute mark the latest, your armslab should be active of course, and researching Armor 1 - to be there in time for Fades, when the days of nigh-invincible and allseeing marines are over and they'll be taking hits on a regular basis again. In turn you should use the newly gained ressources to go on the offensive in a concentrated spot (as this is by experience the best way to deter fades, or lower their active time in the field - forcing them to fight uphill versus 80% of your team).
And this is where the subtle benefit of an MT rush becomes apparent - when done correctly, it can swing a bad match where your team barely managed to leave base around, gain a lot of momentum in a short time and possibly even keep it if you play smart with your counter-offense.
The main reasons to not go MT rushing are :
- Earlier A1
- 2 ressource nodes buildable at the start instead of one
- allows for better offense in the under-2-minute department
All in all, its a strong strategy - and the dent it makes in earlygame offense is really its one fatal flaw. Ironically, its main strength is to recover from just that. An A1/denial win is still easier, because it usually doesn't involve a second Hive ever going live - but also so much tougher to pull off early on.
Someone said
"That would work only if you have a team with exellent aim. Besides the heavy armor is not very helpfull without armor upgs."
Armour upgrades for HA is an advantage but each upgrade only gives 1 extra bite worth of armour, so not that great.
With the adition of the dots on the map, MT is doubly as useful as it was. The com can now tell exactly what is happening. He can warn easier of incoming attacks, send marines to where aliens are not. MT is as useful to marines as it is to the commander.
Every upgrade at lvl2 = 1HA+SG+Welder
For discussion... are 5 HA SG welders at a1 w1 more useful than 3 HA SG welders at a2 w2 or a mere 1 HA SG welder at a3 w3.
What I've learnt about NS clan games, is that as marines you have to be pretty quick and aggresive to stand a chance of winning, and I feel you can be more succesful at this if you have the HA and heavy weapons earlier and with more of them.
If 3 HA's with SG's or HMG's can't take on a fade with lvl 0 weapons then to be honest I think they'd struggle even with lvl 3 weapons. I know you'll all say the fades will arrive before HA is handed out and its true. But once they do appear it won't be long before you get HA and heavy weapons.
So I'll admit, not getting a1 w1 is probably a suicidal move and the point is duely noted.
Your example of the HAs with varying levels of upgrades is irrelevant because that's only counting 150 res.. you'll have much more than that to work with. Whats better, 5 1/1 upgraded HA or 5 3/3 upgraded HA? That's a more realistic comparison. More upgrades = more nodes = more res = more HA... Even though JPs rock HA <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I consider 3/3 luxeries, but frankly if you're not winning with 2/2, then 3/3 isn't going to help you so substantially that you'll dominate the game.
the 80 res is better spent teching up IMO
While I like the idea quite a bit, I can't see it being used in a pub.
3/3 owns because it means you can take 4 hits from a Fade with no meds and you get the ~8.5% extra damage... which is nice especially for killing fades.
This is the list of things and upgrades we had:
- 1 IP
- arms lab with armor 1 upgrade
- upgraded armory
- proto lab with HA
Nothing else, we didnt even have PG tech MT or other things, yes I had to defend base alone against fade/skulks during hive attack but with HA/hmg its easy to defend base.
And no .. enemy team was not newbie (especially on caged)
So in my game, I would make the move on one of the alien hives with 4 highly beefed up marines, that can dish out some real damage and have high staying power due to HA and welders, where as with upgrades I'd be assaulting a hive with LMG's and no HA that will get torn apart by lerk gas and hit & run attacks by fades. Gas does not hurt HA, fades get torn apart by SG's and HMG's and bile bombing gorges can be kept at bay with a GL. Equipment is the counter to alien life forms, not upgrades.
Marines can win long games, however aliens tend to get stronger as a game progresses with more fades, lerks and onos. So to consistently win as marines you need to make your winning moves relativly early to ensure you face minimal alien threats. This is what the tactic is about. It gives the marines equipment that will give them the edge over the aliens.
...thats the theory.
Here's the maths...
The weapon upgrades give you a total of 30% dmg increase. A HMG does double the damage of an LMG, so a HMG gives you a 100% dmg increase over an LMG. As an example, 90 res can be spent on the weapon upgrades giving your marines that poxy 30% increase, or you can hand out 6 HMG's giving those marines a 100% increase. Even if its 10v10 the average increase in dmg is 66.6% (((6*100)+(3*0))/9) where as upgrades will only give you 30% at best.
Armour upgrades costing again 90 res, will allow your marines to take 4 bites worth of damage. HA at lvl 0 will allow your marines to take 8 bites worth of damage (I think its more in fact, but I can't remember what it is sorry). So, HA is again twice as effective as armour upgrades, giveing you a 100% in your ability to take damage with the advantage of being gas proof. As an example, 90 res can be spent on armour upgrade giving your marines a 100% increase in their damage taking ability, or you can hand out 6 HA giving those marines a 400% increase. Even if its 10v10 the average increase is 266% (((6*400)+(3*0))/9) where as upgrades will give you a 200% increase.
To sum up...
W1 + W2 + W3 = 30% dmg increase.
HMG = 100% dmg increase.
A1 + A2 + A3 = 200% health increase.
HA = 400% health increase.
Equipment is 3 times as effective than upgrades for weapons, and twice as effective than upgrades for armour.
...thats the theory.
...
To sum up...
W1 + W2 + W3 = 30% dmg increase.
HMG = 100% dmg increase.
A1 + A2 + A3 = 200% health increase.
HA = 400% health increase.
Equipment is 3 times as effective than upgrades for weapons, and twice as effective than upgrades for armour. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, a) you're totally correct about marines being strongest early game, of course, this is probably not the best strat to exploit that, since it takes minimum 4:30 to research, not to mention locking you into a specific tactic and costing a ton of res (point b).
b) Your math ignores the fact that upgrades exist after death. Well, either ignores it, or assumes your heavies won't die as a condition of victory (which is pretty much an assumption you'd have to make). The problem I see in this is that the timing is all wrong. The alien team can have the hive up before your armory is done, and have it finished before your protolab is done, assuming you build and research as fast as possible. So unless you've spend significant amount of res controlling the map (which would delay your tech anyway) you will face at least a fade that can blink in, swipe, blink out, heal in 2 seconds with metabolize, blink in again before you finish reloading, etc, and (vs a smart team) undoubtably a stream of endless leaping skulks that will wear your heavies down in a couple minutes. If anything, 2 hive skulk is the cheapest and most reliable counter to heavies, even with onos you don't get the same payoff (since they're easy to kill, anyway).
I usually upgrade armor 3 in the time I'm researching heavies, and use that to exert a little map control. Not saying it always works <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> weapon upgrades are a feeble crutch everyone relies on.
In terms of the 2nd hive, I'm trying to never allow that to go up, either by constant pressure at 2 locations or sg rushing the hive as soon as I know its going up. The tactics not about only spending res on equipment, its playing your same style of commanding but taking the equipment route in the tech tree over upgrades which really aren't very effective.
The armour upgrades are however the more effective so I suppose a reasonable tactic is to upgrade the armoury straight off, get a1 a2 a3 and then hand out HMG's and welders. That can all be done in at best 5 minutes, probably before the hive goes up and just in time for a lot of fades. Weapon upgrades really make so little difference that I'd probably upgrade hand grenades and cat packs before w1.
I'm trying to discuss this and I don't want you guys to think I'm telling you whats wrong and right I just express my ideas as they are.
Curiously we today lost a game of Ha rush on eclipse because 1 good fade in hive with skulks was able to kill 5ha :-)