Marines Are Way Unbalanced
Harpoon
Join Date: 2002-10-06 Member: 1448Members
Join Date: 2002-10-06 Member: 1448Members
they are owning so much... they dont lose unless they have a newbie commander
one thing that really tips it in their favour is motion tracking at the observatory. It basically gives everyone a wallhack. The marines see the aliens comming, so combat becomes an absolute joke. As marine i just look at the blue circles advancing towards me, wait, crouch, and boom dead skulk. Moving fast wont really make a difference if people know how to aim. How well the alien skulks can keep the pressure on the marines really decides a lot of the game. Thats why often as an alien skulk you come around the corner to see a pair of marines just waiting for you and you get creamed. Yeah strategy and group tactics are important, but simple engagements between aliens and marines and the effectiveness of both parties is really what decides the outcome as much as anything else.
Aliens dont really have anything of the equivilant, they cant see marines through walls unless they are parasited (rare) or if they have scent of fear (even rarer, cuz you actually have to have to sensory chambers AND they have to be injured)
one thing that really tips it in their favour is motion tracking at the observatory. It basically gives everyone a wallhack. The marines see the aliens comming, so combat becomes an absolute joke. As marine i just look at the blue circles advancing towards me, wait, crouch, and boom dead skulk. Moving fast wont really make a difference if people know how to aim. How well the alien skulks can keep the pressure on the marines really decides a lot of the game. Thats why often as an alien skulk you come around the corner to see a pair of marines just waiting for you and you get creamed. Yeah strategy and group tactics are important, but simple engagements between aliens and marines and the effectiveness of both parties is really what decides the outcome as much as anything else.
Aliens dont really have anything of the equivilant, they cant see marines through walls unless they are parasited (rare) or if they have scent of fear (even rarer, cuz you actually have to have to sensory chambers AND they have to be injured)
Comments
Two: I don't know about the servers you play on, but the ones I do, there are usually a couple of people that will pretty much sit outside MS and parasite marines as they come out.
Three: Yes, the game is about the effectiveness of each side being more than the other. If either side wants to win, they have to push back the other and take the RTs and upgrade their effectiveness. The aliens get it with higher life forms, more hives and upgrade chambers. The marines, well, you already know. I don't see how this causes the marines to be unbalanced. The marines have mt? Okay, then find a spot that they are gurantted to pass by like a route to a hive that your team has and wait. Not many marines will remember Mr. Skulky being there. Also, remember that most marines don't check their minimap for what ever reason, so they never know you're behind them. FLANK EM! Attack them from the sides or the back, make pincer moves, use tactics. You can have massively upgraded mariens but an alien team of higher skill/team work can and will beat them. Happened today in Nancy. The marines had everythign but didn't win because they wouldn't listen to their comm, they kept screwing around and playing around. It all comes down to team work and how well you can work as one. Not what upgrades you have.
Ok i was wrong - but then again, when do sensory towers go up? Its always defense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two: I don't know about the servers you play on, but the ones I do, there are usually a couple of people that will pretty much sit outside MS and parasite marines as they come out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you kidding me? You're just making stuff up. So a "couple of people" devote their entire game to parisiting? What about the fact that marines rarely leave their spawn past a certain point and just phase to hotspots?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Three: Yes, the game is about the effectiveness of each side being more than the other. If either side wants to win, they have to push back the other and take the RTs and upgrade their effectiveness. The aliens get it with higher life forms, more hives and upgrade chambers. The marines, well, you already know. I don't see how this causes the marines to be unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to be able to beat the other guy in combat too, y'know
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The marines have mt? Okay, then find a spot that they are gurantted to pass by like a route to a hive that your team has and wait. Not many marines will remember Mr. Skulky being there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH... so you cant fight them unless you are trying to ambush them? There something seriously wrong if you cant engage in combat unless you can get the jump on them. You have to be able to stand up to the marines, because you will be fighting over nodes and strongpoints all over the map. Then after you kill a few a few times, they'll start checking those corners. Then you just F4 because you cant fight marines any more?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, remember that most marines don't check their minimap for what ever reason, so they never know you're behind them. FLANK EM! Attack them from the sides or the back, make pincer moves, use tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make pincer moves and use tactics? How come the marines dont have to do that? Wait, they just see you through the wall. This whole quote is screwed up. NS maps are not this huge, twisted clusterfuck of hallways loops so you can flank people all the time. They have a few main hallways and routes. You expect people to stop and go ALL the way around so you can flank someone that wont be there any more. And i dont have to check the mini map. I just look behind me every few seconds. I see how far away the aliens are from me from the motion tracking, flink my view around, look if there are any circles behind me, keep going. Pincer moves lol, ok, so now we have to communicate using voice com and arrange a pincer move with another skulk to kill marines... on a pub. And most importantly of all, it is really hard to ambush or flank if you dont know where the enemy is through the wall, because they'll move and you're ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can have massively upgraded mariens but an alien team of higher skill/team work can and will beat them. Happened today in Nancy. The marines had everythign but didn't win because they wouldn't listen to their comm, they kept screwing around and playing around. It all comes down to team work and how well you can work as one. Not what upgrades you have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the aliens were much beter than the marines, and the marines werent listening to their commander so they managed to lose with Heavy armour and HMGs? This was the only time aliens could win? Majority of games the marines listen to their commander somewhat and are evenly skill matched with the alien players because the players switch between rounds. So.... i personally have seen, out of the maybe nine games i played today, aliens win once, because the comm chair was literaly empty for 30 seconds into the game, then a total noob came in and didn't know to build IPs until someone told him to. Aliens shouln't have to rely on marines screwing up in order for them to win.
Really, how ling have you played this game anyways?
perhaps something like:
a constant beeping noise that plays from every marine that has motion tracking (this would require MT to be toggle-able, though)
perhaps something like:
a constant beeping noise that plays from every marine that has motion tracking (this would require MT to be toggle-able, though) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats already done as server plugin.. the con is you have to switch up the flashlight to use motion tracking..
Might I note that we are currently playing Beta builds, whichs discussion we have designated forums for?
perhaps something like:
a constant beeping noise that plays from every marine that has motion tracking (this would require MT to be toggle-able, though) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally think MT should only appear on the mini-map, so it's not 3 deminsional.
To compensate for this, however, MT would have to be lowered down to 25 res for it's purchase cost.
Ok i was wrong - but then again, when do sensory towers go up? Its always defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would suggest using different strategy rather then straight head on rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two: I don't know about the servers you play on, but the ones I do, there are usually a couple of people that will pretty much sit outside MS and parasite marines as they come out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you kidding me? You're just making stuff up. So a "couple of people" devote their entire game to parisiting? What about the fact that marines rarely leave their spawn past a certain point and just phase to hotspots?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Parasite everyone you see. Use your ears. Stick to the ceilings and move in bursts stopping in between when presence of MT has been established. Or just go gorge and drop res towers while letting those that know how to handle MT enabled marines do the defending.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Three: Yes, the game is about the effectiveness of each side being more than the other. If either side wants to win, they have to push back the other and take the RTs and upgrade their effectiveness. The aliens get it with higher life forms, more hives and upgrade chambers. The marines, well, you already know. I don't see how this causes the marines to be unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to be able to beat the other guy in combat too, y'know<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Use a higer lifeform. End of story.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The marines have mt? Okay, then find a spot that they are gurantted to pass by like a route to a hive that your team has and wait. Not many marines will remember Mr. Skulky being there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH... so you cant fight them unless you are trying to ambush them? There something seriously wrong if you cant engage in combat unless you can get the jump on them. You have to be able to stand up to the marines, because you will be fighting over nodes and strongpoints all over the map. Then after you kill a few a few times, they'll start checking those corners. Then you just F4 because you cant fight marines any more? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not your average deathmatch mod. Yes, you need to ambush with skulk to have any decent chance of success any engagement until your team gets higher lifeforms with or without MT, at which point you can act as support for higher lifeform assaults and distraction for flanking. This is how this game has been since 2.00.
To make the long story short - skulk is your BASIC SPECIALIZED lifeform. As in a WEAK SCOUT. How many times have you seen spy class trying to duke it out against soldier class in a mid range shootout in TFC and then **** that difference in firepower is not fair? This is essentially the same argument. Classes are too different for comparing, as they should use different method for victory (if you haven't plyaed TFC - soldier's main weapon will kill spy at mid range with ease, while spy can get behind soldier and kill him in one backstab with his melee weapon.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, remember that most marines don't check their minimap for what ever reason, so they never know you're behind them. FLANK EM! Attack them from the sides or the back, make pincer moves, use tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make pincer moves and use tactics? How come the marines dont have to do that? Wait, they just see you through the wall. This whole quote is screwed up. NS maps are not this huge, twisted clusterfuck of hallways loops so you can flank people all the time. They have a few main hallways and routes. You expect people to stop and go ALL the way around so you can flank someone that wont be there any more. And i dont have to check the mini map. I just look behind me every few seconds. I see how far away the aliens are from me from the motion tracking, flink my view around, look if there are any circles behind me, keep going. Pincer moves lol, ok, so now we have to communicate using voice com and arrange a pincer move with another skulk to kill marines... on a pub. And most importantly of all, it is really hard to ambush or flank if you dont know where the enemy is through the wall, because they'll move and you're ****.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"OMG, I have to use TEAMWORK?"
I do think it's time for you to go back to CS... NS is obiviously not for you, since ability to use <b>TEAMWORK</b> is a #1 skill you require in NS. Everything else comes second to it. EVERYTHING. Period.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can have massively upgraded mariens but an alien team of higher skill/team work can and will beat them. Happened today in Nancy. The marines had everythign but didn't win because they wouldn't listen to their comm, they kept screwing around and playing around. It all comes down to team work and how well you can work as one. Not what upgrades you have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the aliens were much beter than the marines, and the marines werent listening to their commander so they managed to lose with Heavy armour and HMGs? This was the only time aliens could win? Majority of games the marines listen to their commander somewhat and are evenly skill matched with the alien players because the players switch between rounds. So.... i personally have seen, out of the maybe nine games i played today, aliens win once, because the comm chair was literaly empty for 30 seconds into the game, then a total noob came in and didn't know to build IPs until someone told him to. Aliens shouln't have to rely on marines screwing up in order for them to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Up until now, pub statstics (pulled in at least two threads I saw so far) suggest ~1/2 ratio of wins for marines/aliens on ns_ maps on public servers. That's 2 alien wins for every marine win over a span of over 100 games per server iirc. You facts are nothing but uneducated guesses, which are obiviously incorrect. Play more and see that there's more then skulks to aliens.
Here's a list of suggestions to help with classic NS:
1.) Up skulk default speed and give 10 more armor.
2.) Give lerk spikes and get rid of primal scream.
3.) Up Acid Rocket damage.
4.) Give Onos 800 hp, 800 armor by default.
5.) Increase the amount of hp each piece of armor is worth per hive.
6.) Give babblers back to the gorge.
The Kharraa are supposed to be stronger and have the advantage. The marines are supposed to be forced to work as a team to take them down.
Looking away from armor/health/damage statistics, there is one fact in the game that makes the actual imbalance (imho):
the <b>Res System</b>.
Problem 1
While Marines can just go ahead and build RTs the comm drops,
Aliens have to independently go gorge first, then build RT.
At the start of the game you cant build more than one, and while a gorge is helpfull, it cant match the contribution of another skulk to the team. It will either die because Marines in a fight tend to hunt them regardless of skulk presence (a gorge kill is considered a small victory, even if all Marines die to a single skulk nearby - the fact that 10 res are lost and the fact that if the fatty could actually build something that instance, it must now repay 10 res), or it will hide in the back lines waiting ages for the res to build even an OC.
Thats why most people either dont go gorge at all, or drop 1 RT, then switch to skulk res4kill, with 1 RT actually costing 25 res.
Problem 2
Destroying and Rebuilding RTs
Alien starvation
A single Marine can build a RT so fast, and a single Skulk can destroy it so slow,
that destroyed Marine RTs are no problem. Just send someone to rebuild them and off you go again with the shinny HAs.
On the other hand, destroyed ALien RTs are a huge blow to the Infestation progress. The poor (0 res) start-gorgies feel their res just got wasted, while the guys with no spent res cant afford building them again (they will probably fall again). The team will need Fades,Chambers and a 2nd hive. This means, that a Marine team killing most alien RTs wont face any high lifeform in higher numbers.
This causes another Problem.
Problem3
Onos/Fade dead = bb Aliens
50 res are 5 Shottys or 1 Fade.
80 res are 5 HMGs or 1 Onos.
If one MArine dies, another can pick up the equipment (even the dead respawning)
If the few Fade/Onos die its bb res and often gg.
As I see it, the distinction between a team ResBucket(Marine) and personal mini Buckets(alien) has huge impacts on gameplay.
A simple solution to this could be enabling res to be passed from alien to alien.
If all had 15 res, they could add it up and give it to Alien#4 and go build a Hive.
But this might also mess up the starting game.
Another thing I never liked is siege kills or Hive camping.
Marines can flush out like rats from multiple IPs, while Aliens wait on a
1-for-each-Hive basis. This ends up in 2-min waits until you reinforce and just get slaughtered by the MArines in Hive, or more painful, by a siege firing.
As this is a HIVE, not an IP, I would like to be able to at least coordinate when I spawn out.
After the normal reinforcement period, I could for example press fire once to spawn with other skulks simultanously (chat/voice organization) to fight off the spawncamp. ITs better than lame dead 1 by 1. The Marines even have the fantastic Beacon, Aliens have **** :/
(Edit 2 more things:)
Upgrades are for Marines free while Aliens have to pay for them each frikking time. When in Alien starvation mode, you cant even get the upgrade benefits at all.
I liked Babblers. Babblers are great. Babblers are most funny thing ns had.
I vote for bringing them back <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sorry for the length.
Hope for some to agree.
Peace
Marines = active teamwork, weak individuals
Aliens = passive teamwork, strong individuals
I toyed with it back during versions 1 and 2, (didn't really figure it out until recently, to be honest). Maybe that makes my view not as important, but all the same, it also makes it a little bit unbiased.
It comes down to marine strategies, and how the aliens react to that. I'm talking serious strategies, not stupid things such as shottie rushes.
#1. Marines cap as many RTs as possible, to go up the tech tree as fast as possible. In this case, aliens get 2nd hive quickly, then leaping skulks/fades eventually overwhelm the rines, 3rd hive comes quickly.
#2. Marines make beelines to the hives, locking them down. Then the aliens disrupt any RTs the 'rines put up, denying them resources, while slowing expanding their genetic base. Fades take down the hive lockdowns, eventually winning.
My take is that it's about how the aliens are able to react to the marine comm strategy. There are a few other varibles at play here however..the balance between Gorges/Skulks (going to place an initial RT takes out out of the game when it's more curicial. I'm seeing more sucess with holding off a minute on RTs and focusing on disruption).
Do I think some skills are a waste of time? Yup. All the 3 hive abilities are just overkill/not really needed. I like Xeno, but again, when it comes into play the game is over. The 'rines just start getting it from all directions, they just can't defend.
In any case, I don't see the inbalance right now. The only concern I have is that OCs need their range extended,, but that's pretty much it as far as balance goes.
The problem I see is that marines do it all, lock down res, and hives. I think the worst thing ns got was electricity. I hate it, it isn't fun. Now the aliens need 2 hives to take down a marine rt while a stock rambo can knife ours in a minute. And usually, the marines go in pairs, so one knifes away, and the other repels any fool hardy skulks that come that way.
Maybe, leap should be in second slot, as skulks need to be faster. That, and no knockback could really help the game. But really, for such a team oriented team, the marines have no problems running around the map, killing skulks, knifing rt's, and building the odd phase gate/siege turret. If in the beginning, for the supposedly individualistic Kharaa, if most of team doesn't attempt to drop a res in the first minute, we lose. If someone **** the res and doesn't drop 3 d chambers and instead goes fade and dies from 2 stock marines, we lose. If a lone gorge builds a hive, with no back up from skulks as their all stuck in spawn que, we lose.
Balance? Not that I've seen.
You see there will always be people who can use NS's tech to their advantage, and people who completely suck with it. In the end we cant help the fact that they use it the way they do. Motion tracker is there as help, to see when aliens are coming. Does that mean that an alien cant kill a marine? Of course not. It just gives the marine a heads-up that an alien is coming. So I say, play on a bunch of servers, large and small, and see how people use the tech instead of walking on the boards and saying that because of a particular server that THIS item sucks, and THIS is too powerful, or THIS gives marines too much edge.
I had an experience where we got our **** kicked by hordes of skulks and lost every combat game we played. But, does that mean I should tell everyone that "OMG Skulks are overpowered! They kill us too quickly! Fix it!" no of course not. Thats childish. Deal with the fact that you got owned by that guy with the motion tracker...
Well .. duh. Of course skill matters. That doesn't mean that the tech upgrades are necessarily balanced, or we wouldn't bother to upgrade at all.
(This is assuming both sides are attempting to attack, and no Armor1. You'd be correct in stating that a Skulk can ambush, but that is still prone to failing frequently - and on the same page, a marine can have backup.)
Aliens = passive teamwork, strong individuals <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm,last time i check it was rines sort of have to work together(cept for that lone rambo who gets a shotty ftw)
aliens are set up so they have to TRY to work together,its mainly all about ambushing,which can still be done with MT
normally they will see something on MT,but forget where it was even if it was close if something else big happens
-------rine take double,2 skulks move up around the exits(rine see that with MT)
a lerk spores rines,swoops in(mabey gets a kill or two) they spores some more.While they leave,they most likely dont give much thought about the 2 blue cirlces they saw 30 seconds ago
Bacteria.
The way I see it, Marines are significantly stronger than Aliens. IMO the stats about 50% win/lose lose ratio for both races is somewhat skewed, because when a GOOD TEAM of marines WIN a round, they usually swap sides @ next round, meaning Good Team trashes Bad team, but it ain't matter what race they play, does it? Besides, most pros do often go for ALIENS.. upsetting the statistics once again. The situation about unbalanced teams is more frequent than one would think. Usually, it's a B grade team facing opposition of higher echelon. Not good.
1. free upgrade chamber, like marine, marine have everything free (MT, ARMOR)
2. offence chamber, put the same range attack like a marine turret, right now
the distance is like 25% shorter than marine turret, its ridiculous!
3. decrease electricity domage from marine RT or make RT attack alien only
if the alien attack the RT
4. increase skull speed or increase armor & health
5. do something about marine jump like frog, put a small delay between jump or something.....
Well, just a thought that may be worth considering, what it aliens had a form of "commander" as well? I mean, for that to work such a position would have to have less control over things as the marine commander does to avoid too much change, still, why not? I mean even if all they do is talk to the other players and say do this or do that, it helps aliens become more of a team instead of a group of individuals.