<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+May 22 2004, 11:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ May 22 2004, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would love to know why this is necessary. We have yet to be threatened in our homeland by any power capable of invading it for the past decade. Our current armed forces are more then enough for any job, we just don’t use them properly. We're not fighting the war right in Iraq, we're not fighting the wae right in Afghanistan. We need leaders in the military not more troops. We need generals who are less worried about the next photo op, and "omg did we damage that mosque!!" And more worried about what a tangled mess our command structure is. Why aren't we using more armor in Iraq? Why aren't we blowing these fortified mosques up? Anyway getting off topic now.
Personally I have considered joining the armed forces, but I won't stand for being forced into it. If there was a real threat I think enough people, including me, would do their part, as history shows. But to start a draft now, with the war in Iraq not even lowering gas prices for us, would be a big mistake. I predict mass rioting, desertions, tons of unnecessary problems. Also I know allot of people who are eligible for this draft who you really really would not want out there with a gun.
To sum up, we have all the military power we need and then some were just not using it right. Draft will cause riots and major problems, if anything serious ever threatens us allot of people will join on their own. Some people should just never be given a gun and told to fight.
Also who is this "Mr. HOLLINGS" and where does he live, I would love to sit down with him and hear his reasons for this stupidity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree for the most part. If we were to come under any threat people would flock to sign up. But ever since the disolve of the USSR there has been no nation that can truely stand up to us. In fact, Russia is still our biggest threat (though we sorta get along) because like us, they can destroy ANY blip on the globe in <i>thirty-five minutes!!</i> Other countries may have Nukes, but none have the military capibility to invade or ICBM's.
<!--QuoteBegin-taboofires+May 23 2004, 12:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ May 23 2004, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Two issues.
1) If this is the same guy I'm pretty sure it is, he's bringing a draft to the table as a slap in the face of the war hawks, to bring a sense of reality to the war. Many Americans are losing their sons and daughters to the war, yet polititians and the wealthy are generally isolated from that cost. The hope is that people will think twice before endorsing more combat if they might have to send their children off to fight.
2) In modern combat, a draft is tactical suicide. Thousands upon thousands of poorly trained, ill motivated, and generally uncooperative draftees will actually hinder the efforts of the army. This is not trench warfare. This is engagement with a small, well equiped elite force, that can get a job done fast and with minimal casualties.
A draft will only send people to their deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That congressmen from New York you mean?
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+May 23 2004, 01:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ May 23 2004, 01:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Spooge+May 23 2004, 06:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spooge @ May 23 2004, 06:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+May 23 2004, 04:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ May 23 2004, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you supported the war, than stand by your conviction and take a bullet for America you hypocrite. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is easily one of the most ignorant opinions I've heard from a U.S. citizen. Congrats. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How so? You can support sending others off to kill and die for a cause, yet you are not willing to die for it yourself, how is this not hypocrisy? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How about having certain disability's that would hinder your unit?
if/when the draft is passed, you can find me at the army recruiters...
there is only one 100% way to dodge the draft, and that's to enlist.
i am fat, i am lazy, i want to shoot guns... the only thing that stops me from joining today, is my Girlfriend... if it wasn't for her, i *would* be in iraq today. (the unit i was about to join was shipped off)
i can see the draft being put into action, but not the way it was used in vietnam, WW2 or the Korean conflict... the united states government has my 100% support if they wish to put in a system simmilar to the finnish... 6 months of training, and your done... that's fine, i can deal with that, it would help out with various problems in this country.
as i understand, the 6months is encourperated somewhere in with schooling, is that right?
there was a finnish exchange student in my english class, he said that they had a gun-training class... which to me, would be scary... but the things they did would be awsome.. clip loading, target practice, gun saftey training... (for those people taht are *OMG GIVE A KID A GUN???... they would obviously start off with the miles system... )
<!--QuoteBegin-Xzilen+May 23 2004, 11:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ May 23 2004, 11:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+May 23 2004, 01:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ May 23 2004, 01:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Spooge+May 23 2004, 06:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spooge @ May 23 2004, 06:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+May 23 2004, 04:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ May 23 2004, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you supported the war, than stand by your conviction and take a bullet for America you hypocrite. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is easily one of the most ignorant opinions I've heard from a U.S. citizen. Congrats. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How so? You can support sending others off to kill and die for a cause, yet you are not willing to die for it yourself, how is this not hypocrisy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about having certain disability's that would hinder your unit? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a diference between being unwilling and being unable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can see the draft being put into action, but not the way it was used in vietnam, WW2 or the Korean conflict... the united states government has my 100% support if they wish to put in a system simmilar to the finnish... 6 months of training, and your done... that's fine, i can deal with that, it would help out with various problems in this country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the US were a less powerful nation, with a real risk of being invaded, I would agree with you. However, the US already has the most powerful military on the globe, and we use it often. It is no longer used only to protect US citizens, but also to protect the intrests of those in powerin the US (usually corporations).
<!--QuoteBegin-Delarosa+May 24 2004, 06:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Delarosa @ May 24 2004, 06:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> as i understand, the 6months is encourperated somewhere in with schooling, is that right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whoa. I've heard that in Russia some schools teach their kids(male and female alike) shooting, but I've never heard of it being used in Finland. Maybe it was some special school where your fez came from <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I hope this won't be taken as an attempt in thread hijacking, but maybe it's good to know how drafts work in other countries. PM me if you want it all edited out.
But no, IIRC you have to be 17 to be drafted and most people go in as 18 or 19(after their secondary school). Some people go to Uni first and then they go to army as like 25 years old. Of course you can chooce civil service if you have some moral problems 'learning to kill', like the opposers put it so delicately. Or if you don't want either of those, you can go to jail.
Civil service is given to people who oppose army for moral reasons, and they are sent to learn duties they would be performing off the frontlines during war, like in hospitals and supply manufacturing etc.
Now the people who can't handle the civil service either, go to jail. I think Finland is the only country in Europe that has prisoners 'jailed for their opinions'(amnesty internationl whines about it constantly), but it's not as bad people think. The prisons in Finland are pretty comfy already, you get your own TV and your own furniture in your cell if you want, and afaik the people who go to jail for not wanting to do their service time, are let out for days, so they can work days and then they go back to jail just to sleep there. Free appartment, not too bad imo <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And lastly, if you have some other heavy reason, you can bail out of service too, like a major handicap or you're Jehovas witness. But for example if you are obese or you have an extremely bad eyesight, that's not a reason to get out. You are just given a duty that you can handle even with your disadvantages.
Must admit that I kind of have the impression that a lot of Americans are against drafts because they aren't used to the thought.
Living in Denmark, I'm most likely getting drafted in about a year, and since public health is getting worse, there's not much chance of me evading service, since I don't have any handicaps. But I don't really mind much. Not because of the war, but because I actually believe I need a year off. It builds character, and I think I could use that. I see it mostly as just another phase of education.
So, basically, it's not bad. Chance is you're not going to get drafted and shot. Rather, you'll get drafted, get a valuable experience and if someone comes knocking on Uncle Sam's door, you can fight. I personally find it hilarious that people argue "we are not in war, we don't need draft". If someone wanted to attack the U.S., do you really think saying "just delay the attack for half a year will you? we need to train some soldiers" would work?
I don't want to fight a war some big-shot politician's mouth got me into. It's not my war, it's not my fight, it's not my problem. If there is a possible invasion of the US, a front on US soil, count me in. If my home is being theatened, I'll gladly fight. Until then, I have no place in the military, and jail time will not change my mind.
I have to agree with Hero(not that I am of age to enlist in the first place). I will always be willing to defend that which is ours. But I am not willing to attack people of a different land just because some feel threatened. The war against terrorism is somewhere in the middle, to me. Technically you could say we were defending, or taking preemptive action, but I doubt it's going to stop terrorism.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dread+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Civil service is given to people who oppose army for moral reasons, and they are sent to learn duties they would be performing off the frontlines during war, like in hospitals and supply manufacturing etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A slight correction: Civil servants will be cannon fodder if Finland goes to war. We'll (yeah, I went to civil service and army would have been easier) be given basic training and sent off to be the lucky guys to catch the first bullets so the Supreme Command won't have to waste valuable trained soldiers during the first few days. Yeah, it isn't fair but what're you gonna do...
<!--QuoteBegin-Dread+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think Finland is the only country in Europe that has prisoners 'jailed for their opinions'(amnesty internationl whines about it constantly), but it's not as bad people think. The prisons in Finland are pretty comfy already, you get your own TV and your own furniture in your cell if you want, and afaik the people who go to jail for not wanting to do their service time, are let out for days, so they can work days and then they go back to jail just to sleep there. Free appartment, not too bad imo <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Free needle sharing, HIV+ opportunities, male bonding and beatings for long haired hippies too. What downtown apartment complex could ever compete with that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Dread+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But for example if you are obese or you have an extremely bad eyesight, that's not a reason to get out. You are just given a duty that you can handle even with your disadvantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For some reason, our glorious defense forces (if all armies are defense forces, how come there are wars?) have some sense here and they refuse to take nearly or totally blind or deaf people in. Also, people with major and very evident psychological problems are sent to the nearest shrink instead of the nearest drill sergeant.
But yeah, all in all, sorry for the derail and you who live in countries with no draft system are lucky indeed. I did 12 months in a **** special school with 8 nutball ADD children. Wasn't funny then, isn't funny now.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scinet+May 28 2004, 11:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scinet @ May 28 2004, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A slight correction: Civil servants will be cannon fodder if Finland goes to war. We'll (yeah, I went to civil service and army would have been easier) be given basic training and sent off to be the lucky guys to catch the first bullets so the Supreme Command won't have to waste valuable trained soldiers during the first few days. Yeah, it isn't fair but what're you gonna do... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Argh, slight de-railment ahead :/
If crap hits the fan, yeah, even civil servants will get a gun in their hands, but then again, if you don't like the way Finland handles its defence, you don't have to live in here. Personally I think it's a privilidge to be here but you can always move to another country if you think Finland isn't worth defending.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah. Free needle sharing, HIV+ opportunities, male bonding and beatings for long haired hippies too. What downtown apartment complex could ever compete with that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, you know how our prisons work. Like I said, you get your own cell, you don't have to 'share needles' and you don't get raped every day. That's bad TV right there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if all armies are defense forces, how come there are wars?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pre-emptive strikes. However our army isn't much of an offensive one and the only country that should be afraid of our attack is Estonia <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Code9Bored and running out of ammunition.Join Date: 2003-11-29Member: 23740Members
"Nothing but good".... Somehow I have a slight problem with this. If youre standing on one side of a street, and I'm in a window 2 stories above you and 120 yards down the road, and I shoot and paralyze you from the neck down for the rest of your life, HOW is this a good thing exactly?
ANSWER: It is not. Service is good *IF* you come out of it in one piece AND with no combat induced mental scars, you get discipline (at least for the duration), physically fit, and basically get free room and board for however long you decide to stay/they let you stay.
I don't think a draft will happen here (Don't quote me on that.) for quite a while, political suicide at least until the elections occur, and even afterwards i'm willing to bet. Myself i never supported going into Iraq. I still don't. I want to bring our guys home. (Dont construe this as me wanting american soldiers to die. Quite the contrary. We sent them to fight a war, and as such I hope they kill everything and anything they percieve to be a threat. Sound a bit extreme? So is war...or should be.)
If it WERE suddenly instituted, well, I have a few ways to easily get out of it. But it would greatly depend on the situation. Something like iraq would take a GREAT deal of convincing to me.....Unless iraq was actively taking over iran, suadi arabia, kuwait, isreal...In which case, give me that M16.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dread+May 30 2004, 08:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ May 30 2004, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Scinet+May 28 2004, 11:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scinet @ May 28 2004, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A slight correction: Yeah. Free needle sharing, HIV+ opportunities, male bonding and beatings for long haired hippies too. What downtown apartment complex could ever compete with that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, you know how our prisons work. Like I said, you get your own cell, you don't have to 'share needles' and you don't get raped every day. That's bad TV right there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was only half-serious but there's a grain of truth there. A few people I know who have taken that path have told me that things weren't exactly friendly with the other inmates. Also, the HIV+ joke came from the fact that most of the new HIV infections (according to Stakes) are found in prisons these days.
Comments
We're not fighting the war right in Iraq, we're not fighting the wae right in Afghanistan. We need leaders in the military not more troops. We need generals who are less worried about the next photo op, and "omg did we damage that mosque!!" And more worried about what a tangled mess our command structure is.
Why aren't we using more armor in Iraq? Why aren't we blowing these fortified mosques up? Anyway getting off topic now.
Personally I have considered joining the armed forces, but I won't stand for being forced into it. If there was a real threat I think enough people, including me, would do their part, as history shows. But to start a draft now, with the war in Iraq not even lowering gas prices for us, would be a big mistake. I predict mass rioting, desertions, tons of unnecessary problems. Also I know allot of people who are eligible for this draft who you really really would not want out there with a gun.
To sum up, we have all the military power we need and then some were just not using it right. Draft will cause riots and major problems, if anything serious ever threatens us allot of people will join on their own. Some people should just never be given a gun and told to fight.
Also who is this "Mr. HOLLINGS" and where does he live, I would love to sit down with him and hear his reasons for this stupidity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree for the most part. If we were to come under any threat people would flock to sign up. But ever since the disolve of the USSR there has been no nation that can truely stand up to us. In fact, Russia is still our biggest threat (though we sorta get along) because like us, they can destroy ANY blip on the globe in <i>thirty-five minutes!!</i> Other countries may have Nukes, but none have the military capibility to invade or ICBM's.
1) If this is the same guy I'm pretty sure it is, he's bringing a draft to the table as a slap in the face of the war hawks, to bring a sense of reality to the war. Many Americans are losing their sons and daughters to the war, yet polititians and the wealthy are generally isolated from that cost. The hope is that people will think twice before endorsing more combat if they might have to send their children off to fight.
2) In modern combat, a draft is tactical suicide. Thousands upon thousands of poorly trained, ill motivated, and generally uncooperative draftees will actually hinder the efforts of the army. This is not trench warfare. This is engagement with a small, well equiped elite force, that can get a job done fast and with minimal casualties.
A draft will only send people to their deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That congressmen from New York you mean?
This is easily one of the most ignorant opinions I've heard from a U.S. citizen. Congrats. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? You can support sending others off to kill and die for a cause, yet you are not willing to die for it yourself, how is this not hypocrisy? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about having certain disability's that would hinder your unit?
there is only one 100% way to dodge the draft, and that's to enlist.
i am fat, i am lazy, i want to shoot guns... the only thing that stops me from joining today, is my Girlfriend... if it wasn't for her, i *would* be in iraq today. (the unit i was about to join was shipped off)
i can see the draft being put into action, but not the way it was used in vietnam, WW2 or the Korean conflict... the united states government has my 100% support if they wish to put in a system simmilar to the finnish... 6 months of training, and your done... that's fine, i can deal with that, it would help out with various problems in this country.
as i understand, the 6months is encourperated somewhere in with schooling, is that right?
there was a finnish exchange student in my english class, he said that they had a gun-training class... which to me, would be scary... but the things they did would be awsome.. clip loading, target practice, gun saftey training... (for those people taht are *OMG GIVE A KID A GUN???... they would obviously start off with the miles system... )
This is easily one of the most ignorant opinions I've heard from a U.S. citizen. Congrats. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? You can support sending others off to kill and die for a cause, yet you are not willing to die for it yourself, how is this not hypocrisy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about having certain disability's that would hinder your unit? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a diference between being unwilling and being unable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can see the draft being put into action, but not the way it was used in vietnam, WW2 or the Korean conflict... the united states government has my 100% support if they wish to put in a system simmilar to the finnish... 6 months of training, and your done... that's fine, i can deal with that, it would help out with various problems in this country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the US were a less powerful nation, with a real risk of being invaded, I would agree with you. However, the US already has the most powerful military on the globe, and we use it often. It is no longer used only to protect US citizens, but also to protect the intrests of those in powerin the US (usually corporations).
Whoa. I've heard that in Russia some schools teach their kids(male and female alike) shooting, but I've never heard of it being used in Finland. Maybe it was some special school where your fez came from <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I hope this won't be taken as an attempt in thread hijacking, but maybe it's good to know how drafts work in other countries. PM me if you want it all edited out.
But no, IIRC you have to be 17 to be drafted and most people go in as 18 or 19(after their secondary school). Some people go to Uni first and then they go to army as like 25 years old. Of course you can chooce civil service if you have some moral problems 'learning to kill', like the opposers put it so delicately. Or if you don't want either of those, you can go to jail.
Civil service is given to people who oppose army for moral reasons, and they are sent to learn duties they would be performing off the frontlines during war, like in hospitals and supply manufacturing etc.
Now the people who can't handle the civil service either, go to jail. I think Finland is the only country in Europe that has prisoners 'jailed for their opinions'(amnesty internationl whines about it constantly), but it's not as bad people think. The prisons in Finland are pretty comfy already, you get your own TV and your own furniture in your cell if you want, and afaik the people who go to jail for not wanting to do their service time, are let out for days, so they can work days and then they go back to jail just to sleep there. Free appartment, not too bad imo <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And lastly, if you have some other heavy reason, you can bail out of service too, like a major handicap or you're Jehovas witness. But for example if you are obese or you have an extremely bad eyesight, that's not a reason to get out. You are just given a duty that you can handle even with your disadvantages.
Living in Denmark, I'm most likely getting drafted in about a year, and since public health is getting worse, there's not much chance of me evading service, since I don't have any handicaps. But I don't really mind much. Not because of the war, but because I actually believe I need a year off. It builds character, and I think I could use that. I see it mostly as just another phase of education.
So, basically, it's not bad. Chance is you're not going to get drafted and shot. Rather, you'll get drafted, get a valuable experience and if someone comes knocking on Uncle Sam's door, you can fight. I personally find it hilarious that people argue "we are not in war, we don't need draft". If someone wanted to attack the U.S., do you really think saying "just delay the attack for half a year will you? we need to train some soldiers" would work?
The war against terrorism is somewhere in the middle, to me. Technically you could say we were defending, or taking preemptive action, but I doubt it's going to stop terrorism.
A slight correction: Civil servants will be cannon fodder if Finland goes to war. We'll (yeah, I went to civil service and army would have been easier) be given basic training and sent off to be the lucky guys to catch the first bullets so the Supreme Command won't have to waste valuable trained soldiers during the first few days. Yeah, it isn't fair but what're you gonna do...
<!--QuoteBegin-Dread+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think Finland is the only country in Europe that has prisoners 'jailed for their opinions'(amnesty internationl whines about it constantly), but it's not as bad people think. The prisons in Finland are pretty comfy already, you get your own TV and your own furniture in your cell if you want, and afaik the people who go to jail for not wanting to do their service time, are let out for days, so they can work days and then they go back to jail just to sleep there. Free appartment, not too bad imo <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Free needle sharing, HIV+ opportunities, male bonding and beatings for long haired hippies too. What downtown apartment complex could ever compete with that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Dread+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But for example if you are obese or you have an extremely bad eyesight, that's not a reason to get out. You are just given a duty that you can handle even with your disadvantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For some reason, our glorious defense forces (if all armies are defense forces, how come there are wars?) have some sense here and they refuse to take nearly or totally blind or deaf people in. Also, people with major and very evident psychological problems are sent to the nearest shrink instead of the nearest drill sergeant.
But yeah, all in all, sorry for the derail and you who live in countries with no draft system are lucky indeed. I did 12 months in a **** special school with 8 nutball ADD children. Wasn't funny then, isn't funny now.
Argh, slight de-railment ahead :/
If crap hits the fan, yeah, even civil servants will get a gun in their hands, but then again, if you don't like the way Finland handles its defence, you don't have to live in here. Personally I think it's a privilidge to be here but you can always move to another country if you think Finland isn't worth defending.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah. Free needle sharing, HIV+ opportunities, male bonding and beatings for long haired hippies too. What downtown apartment complex could ever compete with that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, you know how our prisons work. Like I said, you get your own cell, you don't have to 'share needles' and you don't get raped every day. That's bad TV right there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if all armies are defense forces, how come there are wars?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pre-emptive strikes. However our army isn't much of an offensive one and the only country that should be afraid of our attack is Estonia <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ANSWER: It is not. Service is good *IF* you come out of it in one piece AND with no combat induced mental scars, you get discipline (at least for the duration), physically fit, and basically get free room and board for however long you decide to stay/they let you stay.
I don't think a draft will happen here (Don't quote me on that.) for quite a while, political suicide at least until the elections occur, and even afterwards i'm willing to bet. Myself i never supported going into Iraq. I still don't. I want to bring our guys home. (Dont construe this as me wanting american soldiers to die. Quite the contrary. We sent them to fight a war, and as such I hope they kill everything and anything they percieve to be a threat. Sound a bit extreme? So is war...or should be.)
If it WERE suddenly instituted, well, I have a few ways to easily get out of it. But it would greatly depend on the situation. Something like iraq would take a GREAT deal of convincing to me.....Unless iraq was actively taking over iran, suadi arabia, kuwait, isreal...In which case, give me that M16.
Yeah. Free needle sharing, HIV+ opportunities, male bonding and beatings for long haired hippies too. What downtown apartment complex could ever compete with that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on, you know how our prisons work. Like I said, you get your own cell, you don't have to 'share needles' and you don't get raped every day. That's bad TV right there.
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I was only half-serious but there's a grain of truth there. A few people I know who have taken that path have told me that things weren't exactly friendly with the other inmates. Also, the HIV+ joke came from the fact that most of the new HIV infections (according to Stakes) are found in prisons these days.