Starcraft Has Spoiled Us.
Rapier7
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
I just want to say beforehand that this is NOT a topic for flaming other games.
There is a certain commodity that always seem short in supply. People call it "common sense", I believe. Many newcomers are daunted by the task of commanding in Natural Selection. When they do, they perform poorly. They get confused, disoriented, and eventually flamed by less pleasant members of the NS community.
I blame Starcraft.
Too often I see topics asking for advice on how to command, and what to do in this case or that case. All the good answers (while intelligently thought out and useful) are merely common sense.
Keep up the momentum of an offensive? Yes!
Don't get bogged down by lone units attacking your periphery (lone RTs)? Yes!
Make sure your troops' morale and equipment are top notch? Yes!
Command according to the game, not to a set-in-stone build order? Yes!
You never see those incredibly deep and intelligent posts on the little things that help you gain an advantage, but merely the bigger picture of what you must do, not how you must do it. Do you siege from outside the hive room or go for a massive assault with shotties? You never see advice for this type of question. This is because there are a lot more incompetent commanders who need to get the basics done first.
Why do I blame Starcraft? Easy. Starcraft and Warcraft (to a lesser extent) are the most widely played RTS games in the gaming community. Almost every gamer has played one of these games at one point in their life. However, there is a problem that arises. As many of you all know, bases in Starcraft usually comprise of your main base (your industrial heartland), the periphery (a couple of sub-bases near your main base in resource-rich territory), neutral territory, and your enemy's territory. In Natural Selection, there is no such thing as neutral territory. Inevitably, every part of the map will be controlled by either the Kharaa or the Frontiersmen sooner or later. There is more of an emphasis on the periphery (the outer RTs) than your main base. Simply put, losing your periphery can be just as/more devastating than losing your main base (as you can relocate).
Simply put, people who play Starcraft and Warcraft have gotten lax in commanding. The emphasis is their main base. There is no such thing as an 'advance base' or 'forward base'. The periphery is right next to the main base, easy to defend. Units can get to many places much more quickly in Starcraft than in Natural Selection. Static defense is MUCH more viable.
Simply put, most people have been weaned on the traditional Blizzard style RTS gameplay. This usually comprises of (mine the resources in your base, build stuff, rush, fortify, occasionally turning out some odd little base not that far away from your main base, repeat. While people don't necessarily directly implement this mode of play into commanding in NS, it is done at a subconscious level. Many people will believe that resource-territory is always better than holding key chokepoints in NS. Consequently, you have a bunch of of commanders screaming for hive/RTs to be saved from a lone skulk, while not focusing on your main goal, which is the destruction of the enemy.
My point is (if I even have one) is this:
Don't bring strategies from other games into NS. Look for patterns on how people do this, and prevent it. Remember, NS has much more different gameplay than many other games, don't try to conform to those other games, conform to NS.
There is a certain commodity that always seem short in supply. People call it "common sense", I believe. Many newcomers are daunted by the task of commanding in Natural Selection. When they do, they perform poorly. They get confused, disoriented, and eventually flamed by less pleasant members of the NS community.
I blame Starcraft.
Too often I see topics asking for advice on how to command, and what to do in this case or that case. All the good answers (while intelligently thought out and useful) are merely common sense.
Keep up the momentum of an offensive? Yes!
Don't get bogged down by lone units attacking your periphery (lone RTs)? Yes!
Make sure your troops' morale and equipment are top notch? Yes!
Command according to the game, not to a set-in-stone build order? Yes!
You never see those incredibly deep and intelligent posts on the little things that help you gain an advantage, but merely the bigger picture of what you must do, not how you must do it. Do you siege from outside the hive room or go for a massive assault with shotties? You never see advice for this type of question. This is because there are a lot more incompetent commanders who need to get the basics done first.
Why do I blame Starcraft? Easy. Starcraft and Warcraft (to a lesser extent) are the most widely played RTS games in the gaming community. Almost every gamer has played one of these games at one point in their life. However, there is a problem that arises. As many of you all know, bases in Starcraft usually comprise of your main base (your industrial heartland), the periphery (a couple of sub-bases near your main base in resource-rich territory), neutral territory, and your enemy's territory. In Natural Selection, there is no such thing as neutral territory. Inevitably, every part of the map will be controlled by either the Kharaa or the Frontiersmen sooner or later. There is more of an emphasis on the periphery (the outer RTs) than your main base. Simply put, losing your periphery can be just as/more devastating than losing your main base (as you can relocate).
Simply put, people who play Starcraft and Warcraft have gotten lax in commanding. The emphasis is their main base. There is no such thing as an 'advance base' or 'forward base'. The periphery is right next to the main base, easy to defend. Units can get to many places much more quickly in Starcraft than in Natural Selection. Static defense is MUCH more viable.
Simply put, most people have been weaned on the traditional Blizzard style RTS gameplay. This usually comprises of (mine the resources in your base, build stuff, rush, fortify, occasionally turning out some odd little base not that far away from your main base, repeat. While people don't necessarily directly implement this mode of play into commanding in NS, it is done at a subconscious level. Many people will believe that resource-territory is always better than holding key chokepoints in NS. Consequently, you have a bunch of of commanders screaming for hive/RTs to be saved from a lone skulk, while not focusing on your main goal, which is the destruction of the enemy.
My point is (if I even have one) is this:
Don't bring strategies from other games into NS. Look for patterns on how people do this, and prevent it. Remember, NS has much more different gameplay than many other games, don't try to conform to those other games, conform to NS.
Comments
That's quite a good working theory. I used to be an avid BattleNet Starcraft player, and now I do a lot of TSA commanding. It's important to note that I sucked at starcraft and I'm not bad with Natural-selection commanding. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You would be suprised at how many times placing a turret factory outpost in a non-resource node area will save a game.
"Inevitably, every part of the map will be controlled by either the Kharaa or the Frontiersmen sooner or later"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if you're taking an insane example, such as almost infinite res and an uncrashable server. Most games degenerate into fortified killing fields or a tough bunker front line of turrets/ocs. In between these killing fields are plenty of areas only vaguely patrolled by the enemy. And lets not forget vents.
I've played Starcraft, and many other strategy games - older and newer. Space Crusade, X Com, the Star Trek Armada series, Dune 2, Star General... the list goes on. They all benefit from planned ambushes, coordinated attacks, 3d vector assaults, combined weapons, use of terrain, etc etc etc.
Yes, you *can* win by sheer mass rushing... but then in NS you can ALSO win by sheer mass LMG rushing. I've done it. I've also mass rushed MS using base skulks and managed to win. Its not the greatest strat but its a valid one.
NEW commanders like to hug the resources. So do defensive ones. They reason that as long as they have the res, they can bleed you dry. This IS largely true, but not the most enjoyable game. In Starcraft this means laming up your resources.... but lets not forget that it's countered by most long range weaponry.
AVERAGE commanders know that controlling strategic areas is what gives you an advantage. They're not on the resource, they're at the narrow pass up the road, waiting to spam you when you're bottlenecked. Aggressive comms end up in this territory because SOMETIMES a rush pays off...... but not always. Its a quicker and more enjoyable game than turtling tho.
EXPERIENCED commanders go for tactics - feints, squads, allocating the work to lieutenants, moving where they're needed, they react to the enemy and also force the enemy to react to them. These people have been playing games for a dedicated amount of team.
GODLIKE commanders do totally abstract things which work very well because quite simply noone else has thought of them before, and thus noone has a counter to them. Godlike commanders have no life, are very bored, or are just exceptionally skilled.
In any RTS game you can see people falling into the above categories, its just a matter of skill and dedication. There will ALWAYS be poor players, and their win record will ALWAYS depend on how poor their opponent is.
People post commander advice who don't command. Some people have no clue what they are talking about.
I say the best way to learn is to get a quick/general guide, hotkeys ect and go command as much as you can. You will only learn what YOU find effective and YOUR playstyle by playing.
Conforming to another persons playstyle can be almost as bad as conforming to another game's playstyle. Get your own.
Micromanagement of traditional RTS units is replaced in NS by different skills. Medspam, truly knowing a map (though high-level play in reg. RTS require this as well) and understanding that your units are functioning in a three-dimentional space. Attackers are not always apparent, and more often than naught a helpful nudge or warning by a commander can overcome an ambush.
Basically what I am trying to say is that NS IS an RTS, its just an RTS with different strategy elements.
A good point raised earlier - FIND YOUR OWN STYLE. Some comms are bloody good turtlers, and get tons of wins. There's always people who buck the trend. Copying a strat won't get you the win... you have to UNDERSTAND the strat, when to apply it, why to apply it, how it can be countered, and how you can change it mid-execution when the enemy have cottoned onto it.
Copy strats verbatim simply will NOT make you a good comm. Something thats been said a thousand times to ANY strategy gamer.
in starcraft you didn't have to worry about this
moral can kill you in the long run i come to find (there are some that doesn't matter, and will keep fighting till that end, thank you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
U wanna know why u see marines mess up so much, or a team focusing on one res node instead of the front? Its because the marines on the field talk back to the comm who has the big view of things. They convince the comm to do this or that. It develops into a habit, and happens over and over again.
When I play Command and Conquer: Generals, usually I build up a massive defense, build up a gigantic force of various units, and have them capture two oil refineries and have them guard it. Then I build up my next massive force and repeat. And while I'm doing all this, I harass the enemy bases with hero units and super weapons and general powers.
My strategy to victory is very timely, but surely.
It doesnt work in NS because there is no such thing as a massive unpassable defense, and there's no such thing as long-range weapons (aka Super Weapons and Air Strikes and whatnot).
Well I must say that human units are a LOT more fun though.
I think most comms would benefit from a little X Comming.
You can't go in menus extremely fast (If you say no, its cos i'm probably faster)
When someone asks for a med pack i can evaluate if its usefull or not and give him in less than 2 seconds.
You can't be a master player if you can't com...the other way around too.
I don't com no mic
I always praise every little victory to just about everyone, and if one fails, i really try to put him in the mood to get out there and take revenge!
I always get out to help when i see the use : 2 onos get in base, i will come out cos its the smartest thing to do...if i don't have a jetpack, i might drop a cc somewhere else...
and ppl won't take the chair cos they trust me
Comming is really cool, but you gotta be fast, efficiant, get the good ups depending on the map, the team, points i control...damn so many tactics possible.
What you always got to do, is listen to the com, if you see he's not totally noob,
You can tell a good com in a mather of seconds
where in war3 you know your hero+8 tauron are gonna slaughter there 4 ghouls and dk
(thats why on pubs i rush armour 3,makes aliens real made...because even people with bad aim can kill a skulk if they survive 5 bites_
I recieved my first Comming victory because my marines were not only very independent but also knew how to work together. 2 Marines always patrolled about gaurding/capping nodes while the rest of the team either defended base or pressured their hive.
In the end, I dropped a few shotties and medpacked my squad and they owned the hive.
Victory in 8 minutes, no voice comm, little to no experience commanding at the start of beta 3 on a map I barely knew.
The average intelligence of your marines is as vital to victory as the brains of a comm. It is theoretically possible for marines to win without a comm <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Minor nitpick: valkyries are air-to-air only <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> But it doesn't detract from your point.
I think a good comm really requires very good micromanagement (like kavasa said), but also needs to be able to see the bigger picture. Don't drop ammo packs pre-emptively on your marines while neglecting to drop the arms lab, and conversely don't spend minutes turreting your base while marines are spamming impulses and voice for ammo and meds. I find the newer comms are the ones who overlook one for the other, and the bad comms are the ones who refuse to learn or change their ways.
Above all, then, I guess you need an open mind - the rest will come with experience, innovation and just old-fashioned practice.
and ppl won't take the chair cos they trust me
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope not the smartest...
what if you die, everyone in base dies...there is noone to becan...gg
What?
No they're not. They're the terran bikes that can drop spidermines and shoot their funky little gun. Does an air-to-air only unit even <i>exist</i> in starcraft? I'm pretty sure none do, so you're probably talking about a different game.
The bigger picture in ns isn't that hard to see. Keep an eye on your res, up the armory and have phases along with guns2/armor1 between 4 and 5 minutes and you're good to go.
KEEKEEEEKEKEKEKEKE