Erm... It just so happens that I can accept the rationale behind exactely - no - conflict since WW2, so you're maybe trying to convince the wrong person here <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> In any case, the situation shifted drastically since the end of the Cold War. It was forseeable that both the United States and Soviet Union blocked each other before that point, but afterwards, there was a chance of agreement - see the first Gulf War as reference. This does not mean that I consider the Security Council a good thing, mind you, I merely point out that it is, under the treaties the United States' administrations have traditionally put great emphasis on when their possible outcome was favorable for themselves, the basis of international law, period.
So a 17 year old signs up for financial and educational reasons, which quite a few people I know have. Like he said, he was naive. He's thinking you do your time, get a good education. Suddenly this whole business starts up he couldn't have seen coming. From his point of view, it's an illegal war, and he is morally (and legally from his viewpoint, if you believe that the war is illegal as I do) obligated to not take part in it. He seeks refuge in Canada.
Really, I don't see how this should result in him being shot or hanged. Frankly, I'm disgusted with the cries of "Shoot the ****" and "Bring out the rope". If this goes poorly for him most likely he will be imprisoned, but the attitude I'm seeing displayed towards him sickens me.
I sort of feel two ways about whether or not he is in the right (Moral right etc vs. Man-made laws, reminds me all too much of Billy Budd), but these calls for the hanging of Brandon Hu*** have sufficiently disturbed me enough that I would risk posting in a discussion thread.
I knew them, not really much in the way of friends (so lumping me in with them won't work), but they were probably thinking something along the lines of a responsible government running that army. No point in derailing a perfectly good topic with all of that though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+May 26 2004, 07:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ May 26 2004, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> again, he signed up for the *army*. I don't know what your friends think, but they should have thought about what they were doing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know its funny to hear people talk about the war in Iraq correcting the US mistake of supporting Sadam, but when this guy tries to correct his mistake of joining the army he gets no simpathy... makes sense, he's not rich enough to anything but a body for the aristocracy right?
Seriously people, he joined thinking that if he DID have to fight, it would be for a good cause, instead he gets shoved in the middle of all this Iraq BULLSH*T and decides that he doesn't want to be a part of it. I can certainly understand wanting to see him suffer some form of punishment (one should accept the consequences of their actions, if they are resonable) but this zealotous cry for blood makes me discusted to be a part of this community.
Correcting mistakes made over setting up dictators involve the lives of millions. Correcting mistakes like those are of extreme importance. One miserable parasite on the American society attempting to correct what he calls a mistake (accepting US dollars to be trained, housed and fed in case he was needed to fight in a war) is unacceptable.
He can yap all he wants about "moral objections" - we all know why he didnt go. The same reason anyone who would back out of a legal contract with their country would - hes a coward. He lacks integrity.
Soldiers do not sign up to fight "If they think that this is honestly a good idea" - they sign up to serve their country. Their democratically elected leaders ordered them to go fight in a war - and this excuse for a human defied that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+May 27 2004, 01:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ May 27 2004, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He can yap all he wants about "moral objections" - we all know why he didnt go. The same reason anyone who would back out of a legal contract with their country would - hes a coward. He lacks integrity.
Soldiers do not sign up to fight "If they think that this is honestly a good idea" - they sign up to serve their country. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unless you have some magical phsycic powers that you haven't told us about, it is imposible for you to know for certain what his real motives are. His claim seems perfectly valid to me, and he has international law on his side (sorta).
BTW, Bush went AWOL for a whole year (BTW, this is legally defined as Desertion), why are you all not calling for him to be shot in the face? Because hes the president now? Because he did it during peacetime (its still a contract...), or because hes rich and well connected? Seriously, how is what he did any different from what this guy did... Oh wait I know, Bush skipped out just because he could, this guy had a moral objection.
I'm going to stop posting in this thread, it sickens me.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+May 27 2004, 07:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ May 27 2004, 07:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm going to stop posting in this thread, it sickens me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, no kidding.
Hey, before we shoot him in the face, why don't we bring his family in to watch? <b>That'll</b> teach them a lesson.
Huh. I thought we labeled Saddam as some inhumanly evil and merciless monster for going so cruelly overboard like this. Again, guess it's all a matter of perspective, and which end of the cruelty you're on.
Yeah actually I do have psychic powers, the kind that you have when you look at a man snatching an old womans handbag and arrive at the conclusion he's probably not a nice guy.
The hell he has international law on his side - the USA didnt order him to shoot civilians. They havent asked him to break a single law of the Geneva Convention - they merely ordered his unit to Iraq for service. He didnt go along and then refuse to fight - he ran like a nancy to Canadia. I'm sure he wasnt the only man who felt like that, but the rest of them faced up to their RESPONSIBILTY. They went along because their duty to both their country (in contract) and to their fellow soldiers obligated them to.
The armies of the West have a long history of executing those soldiers who betray their peers and country, because that kind of crap is contagious. It happened in WW1, it happened in WW2, and technically we are allowed to do it now.
I issued to call to shoot him in the face not in the hope someone will listen and actually do it, though I would have no problem with that, but to express my extreme revulsion for his behaviour. The fact is that he wont be shot, no matter how much he deserves it - but I hope they throw him in jail for the rest of his life.
Bush went AWOL - he should be punished for that according to standard military law. But it was peace time, he didnt go AWOL to save his skin (I could be wrong there - correct me if you know better), and he in no way sold out either his country or his peers. As far as I know, going awol does NOT constitute desertion unless you leave without planning to return, or leave when your unit has been called for active service. Its not the same - that much should be obvious.
When he says that he "told his commanding officer that he wanted out", it seems to imply that he wants out of the entire Iraq situation.
I respect his decision to leave in order to avoid service in Iraq, but did he not have any opportunity to serve in other operations? I was thinking about joining the military reserve (in Canada) earlier this year, and if during my training, I was told I would be going to Iraq, I would refuse to take part in it as well.
On the other hand, I wouldn't immediately break my contract. Couldn't he have requested to partake in a different operation, like Afghanistan. Now that's a country I wouldn't disagree with in serving, and I don't see what he would find morally objectionable in serving there either. All these assumptions about him being a coward and a thief would blown away as well.
But the site doesn't make any mention about it. It doesn't seem to imply that they would force him to serve in Iraq (yet). If they did, then he could of brought up his moral objections and insisted on being sent to a work in a different operation. If they still wouldn't allow him to do that, then I would sympathize with his desertion.
As of now, the details provided don't suggest this.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+May 27 2004, 01:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ May 27 2004, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Correcting mistakes made over setting up dictators involve the lives of millions. Correcting mistakes like those are of extreme importance. One miserable parasite on the American society attempting to correct what he calls a mistake (accepting US dollars to be trained, housed and fed in case he was needed to fight in a war) is unacceptable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "Correcting the Iraq mistake" has already not only involved, but also <i>cost</i> hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, not only in the Gulf War, which was mostly US trying to get to be good pals with Saudi-Arabia for obvious reasons, but also with the ten-year economic sanctions that practically destroyed the public (and private) health care system of the country, and with another war after that. Compared to all this one man's escape from the US to Canada is absolutely nothing. Please do try to see things in their rightful proportions.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+May 27 2004, 08:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ May 27 2004, 08:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bush went AWOL - he should be punished for that according to standard military law. But it was peace time, he didnt go AWOL to save his skin (I could be wrong there - correct me if you know better), and he in no way sold out either his country or his peers. As far as I know, going awol does NOT constitute desertion unless you leave without planning to return, or leave when your unit has been called for active service. Its not the same - that much should be obvious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> bush went AWOL between 72 and 73 (possibly longer). He was due to serve with the homeguard, Im not sure if this is considered 'during peace time' as Vietnam was still going on.
as in interesting aside.. Did you know Bush was trained to pilot an aircraft which went out of service the very same year his training finished? ... convinient eh!
<!--QuoteBegin-Scinet+May 27 2004, 08:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scinet @ May 27 2004, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "Correcting the Iraq mistake" has already not only involved, but also <i>cost</i> hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, not only in the Gulf War, which was mostly US trying to get to be good pals with Saudi-Arabia for obvious reasons, but also with the ten-year economic sanctions that practically destroyed the public (and private) health care system of the country, andthat. Compared to all this with another war after one man's escape from the US to Canada is absolutely nothing. Please do try to see things in their rightful proportions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wierd - I could have sworn the embargo didnt extend to medicines. Please explain to me how economic sanctions against Iraq destroyed their health care. And please, dont say they couldnt afford things after that - Saddam lived in luxury of that little license to print money we like to call oil.
Oh, and forgive me for not sobbing over those Iraqi lives lost in the attempt to liberate them - from the mass graves found all over the country, people were going to die any way this went. Except had we followed the brilliant, caring left wing plan (let them rot, no war rarara) at the end of the day they'd still be under Saddam - while now they have a chance at freedom and peace. For shame America!
I'm not attempting to compare a war to one man's cowardice - I cant see where you got that idea from.
If Bush went AWOL for that period of time, and according to Skulkbait going AWOL for over 30 days with no evidence to return constitutes desertion, then he should have been punished. I would be really interested in hearing what actually happened to him.
However, Bush's unit was not ordered to fight. He didnt go AWOL because he was a coward. This man did. He claims he did it because he objects to the war in Iraq. If he had balls, he would have objected, and then suffer the consequences of his moral objection. But he didnt, because he was a **** - he fled to another country to avoid the consequences of his actions. Bush may have done the wrong thing - but this guy is in a league of his own.
I'm sorry, but you don't know that he was a coward. I'm not saying he is or he isn't, but it's not fair on him to draw conclusions from speculation. All we know is that he's against the war, and broke his contract to do it. We also know he's only 18 years old. He should be punished, yeah; he signed a contract which he broke, despite the circumstances. But he isn't scum of the earth.
I'd just give him a rap on the knuckles, end the contract, and not pay anymore for his college fees. I think prison's a bit extreme.
As for Bush...well, I'm not sure what to believe there. I've read that he was shown favouritism and put into a unit which had very low chance of seeing action, but I've also read rebuttals. I seem to remember Moore having something to do with digging up the dirt, which makes me write it off on reflex.
If Bush Jnr. did desert, and Bush Snr. helped him avoid the war by manipulation, then yeah, they should be punished.
This is nuts. If he voulenteered to give blood at a blood bank, and then decdied not to, would he be shot in the face? I think not. He isn't off home soil yet so he should just get a fine of the amount it cost to train/accomodate him so far. This isn't some huge crime that killed hundreds of people. If they needed people to fight the "war" in Iraq, they would have a draft, however they do not. So killing/imprisoning someone for de-voulenteering in a time of no-crisis is complete bull.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
In my book, a coward is one who seeks to savee his life at the cost of others. This man hasnt really caused any harm and it sickens me you say he should be shot on bare principles.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years. (b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
<b>(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's that simple, have him returned and punished. He knew damn well what he was doing, he wanted a free ride off the system and when the time came to fight for his country he ran away. I doubt he ever had any intent to serve the military unless Russian paratroopers came crashing through his bedroom window. He disgusts me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 3) Seems to be out then. We're not really at war right ? At least that is what seems convenient for the present US leadership.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Don't get me wrong, I don't think he should be shot for lack of patriotism, or because he thinks that the "police action" in Iraq is wrong.
I think he should be shot for trying to hide his grasping, selfish, exploitative, cowardly nature behind a legitimate issue and for reneging on a contract that explicitly includes the condition that you may have to be shot at as part of your job requirements.
Link to his webby needs to be moved a bit. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
He shouldn't be shot, something along the lines of a fine should do fine...a big juicy one.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+May 27 2004, 08:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ May 27 2004, 08:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bush went AWOL - he should be punished for that according to standard military law. But it was peace time, he didnt go AWOL to save his skin (I could be wrong there - correct me if you know better), and he in no way sold out either his country or his peers. As far as I know, going awol does NOT constitute desertion unless you leave without planning to return, or leave when your unit has been called for active service. Its not the same - that much should be obvious. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know someone who went AWOL with two others. The story behind it is actually pretty funny but in the end they just put him in a military jail for a couple of weeks. This was during peace time. The other two got kicked out. He was lucky.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, Bush went AWOL for a whole year (BTW, this is legally defined as Desertion), why are you all not calling for him to be shot in the face? Because hes the president now? Because he did it during peacetime (its still a contract...), or because hes rich and well connected? Seriously, how is what he did any different from what this guy did... Oh wait I know, Bush skipped out just because he could, this guy had a moral objection<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is nuts. If he voulenteered to give blood at a blood bank, and then decdied not to, would he be shot in the face? I think not. He isn't off home soil yet so he should just get a fine of the amount it cost to train/accomodate him so far. This isn't some huge crime that killed hundreds of people. If they needed people to fight the "war" in Iraq, they would have a draft, however they do not. So killing/imprisoning someone for de-voulenteering in a time of no-crisis is complete bull. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the blood bank spent thousands of dollars to train him and provided him with room and board. Then when it came time for him to live up to his end of the contract and he ran, than it would be deserving of punishment. How would you feel if you payed someone thousands of dollars to perform a job and than that person runs off with your money, cause you just did.
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+May 27 2004, 06:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ May 27 2004, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the blood bank spent thousands of dollars to train him and provided him with room and board. Then when it came time for him to live up to his end of the contract and he ran, than it would be deserving of punishment. How would you feel if you payed someone thousands of dollars to perform a job and than that person runs off with your money, cause you just did. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think would be more accurate: guy goes to bloodbank and prepares to donate blood for some cash, but then he get's to know that his blood is to be used in satanic ritual by couple of whackos. He bails out with the money because his morals say that 'satanic rituals' ain't his thing and he doesn't want to be any part of them.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Not to mention he would have a chance to die when he is donating blood for said satanic wackos <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Grendel, what would you think had happened if he refused to obey orders in iraq?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think would be more accurate: guy goes to bloodbank and prepares to donate blood for some cash, but then he get's to know that his blood is to be used in satanic ritual by couple of whackos. He bails out with the money because his morals say that 'satanic rituals' ain't his thing and he doesn't want to be any part of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually no its not
Your comparison would imply that brandon was blindly signing up for some undisclosed government job. He knowing signed up for a job that call him to go to war; and when it did he, he ran. Unless in your example the guy went ing knowing the blood was going to be used in a ritual and was upset that it wasnt going to the devil he liked, the example is wrong.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+May 27 2004, 02:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ May 27 2004, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think would be more accurate: guy goes to bloodbank and prepares to donate blood for some cash, but then he get's to know that his blood is to be used in satanic ritual by couple of whackos. He bails out with the money because his morals say that 'satanic rituals' ain't his thing and he doesn't want to be any part of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually no its not
Your comparison would imply that brandon was blindly signing up for some undisclosed government job. He knowing signed up for a job that call him to go to war; and when it did he, he ran. Unless in your example the guy went ing knowing the blood was going to be used in a ritual and was upset that it wasnt going to the devil he liked, the example is wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> alright I'll respin the analogy.
The guy goes to the bloodbank and prepares to donate blood for some cash knowing that there is a chance he could die in the process. Then he learns that the blood is going to have HIV added to it intentionally before it is distributed into the hospital system. He then bails out because giving people HIV with his blood isn't his thing.
well to perscribe to that analogy you have to believe what we are doing in iraq is universally bad. Not everyone agrees that the Iraqi war is bad, but they would agree intentionally giving people HIV is bad. If we wer to go about doing analogies like that I could say that he ran when he found out a child in dire need of his blood type was going to get the blook, because he didn't like children.
Well, in discussion threads people post their opinions. It's sort of given that his analogy is based off his opinion. It isn't any less apt because you don't agree with what it is based on, and it would be mighty hard (and pointless) to make every post in every discussion thread agree with everyone's views. I found it to be a pretty good one, imho.
<!--QuoteBegin-WoT|Lanfear+May 25 2004, 10:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WoT|Lanfear @ May 25 2004, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I may probably be part of the minority when I say this but I do not support him.
I shall list my reasons and that is really all I can say.
1) He signed up voluntarily was not forced in anyway, shape or form. Considering this even with one being only 17 that is not an excuse. (edited in) I was much like anyone who has lived in the US and been through HS attempted to be recurited. I even was able to take there ASVAB/P? test which tells you what jobs you would do well at while in the military. Even the non-combat ones. The recruiters here tried very hard to get a lot of people to join and I would say they had a sucess rate of about 30% which is more then I expected. Many of those people were friends of mine and are in Iraq right now, we just (south dakota) shipped some fresh troops over there. With him being 17, and I was the same aged when asked, I said no for I would pay my own way into college that was my choice. He opted for the easier way (in money wise, college is DAMN expensive) and now he is complaining.
2) The military will pay for his education when he completes however long he signed up for. That is a fact, and considering most college graduates have 10,000 to 50,000 or more if going for docorate/masters in debt, I think it is a fair trade.
3) If he doesn't think the war is just/moral and what not, he can file a compliant with his superiors, granted it will do nothing, and would not damage his "file" that the military keeps other then a small comment noting his objections.
4) The military does what it is told to do. It is a very well thought out machine and works very efficently, thus why soldiers when they are done are always welcome to the workforce, because they have the heightened disiclpine and awaress of what is around them.
5) IT IS YOUR DUTY. As previously stated if you do not want to join, you do not have to. Since there is no draft(at the moment) one does not have to worry about being FORCED to do something you do not want to when it comes to military matters.
Those are simply my views on why it is not approiate for him to have fled to canada. I will probably have many people going on and on about (SUYF etc) so feel free to do so.
Even though I do not agree with the "war" though I wouldn't call it that since we have not offically declared war. I still think the military is doing all that it can do make sure our boys and girls are doing a wonderful job over there. So, all the more power to those choosing to fight for our country and uphold the faith that I have in our military.
(edited at same time as #1 was) For those that are going to compare Iraq vs Vietnam or even Korea. Don't bother you really can't compare the two. We do not have nearly as many soldiers in the field nor even a 1/4 of the deaths and there is no draft to boot. The "war" in Iraq is not a good thing other then freeing a people that really do not know any better, and probably will see history repeat as that area is incredibly unstable.
(edit #2)
I noticed that the site seems to only post letters that support him and are majority out of the US. If I am wrong feel free to correct me on the from outside the US part. I do not think that represents the US very well in what it conveys. :-)
(Yes.. one of my longer posts) :-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't support him for the same reasons as you.
<!--QuoteBegin-BathroomMonkey+May 25 2004, 03:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ May 25 2004, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bottom line: I'm sorry, but if you join the army, for all the benefits it gives you, you <i>must</i> go in expecting the worst case scenario and make your decision based upon that.
If your primary goal is to earn money for college or job training and not to serve your country in whatever capacity you are requested to, then you're really rolling the dice. Sometimes you win; sometimes you lose. But if you lose, you'd better be prepared to write that check.
(edit, forgot to say this) If not, you should expect to be punished according to the terms of your enlistment.
However, those of you who would villify this ignorant kid would do best to remember the following about our commander in chief (from msnbc): <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, he didn't want to go to Vietnam. Draft deferments for graduate school were ending that spring of 1968. The Texas Air National Guard offered another way. "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada," Bush explained to The Dallas Morning News back in 1990. "So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, of course, came at the cost of close to one million dollars of taxpayer money, with no intention of employing that training overseas. Additionally, the evidence of him fullfilling his obligations is thin at best.
I'm not trying to turn this into a partisan battle-- Clinton was certainly no better, and Hell, I certainly would have done everything in my power to avoid that war. Just to put some perspective on this-- if you're going to hang one, you might as well hang the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow... Suprised to see that from you. Though I would like you to take a closer look at what exactly kerry got his purple hearts for.
You seem to be an honest liberal, I respect that, even for all the past arguments we've had.
As for version19x (sorry can't remember your name), do Blood Banks pay tons of money to train you?
<!--QuoteBegin-Epidemic+May 27 2004, 06:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ May 27 2004, 06:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In my book, a coward is one who seeks to savee his life at the cost of others. This man hasnt really caused any harm and it sickens me you say he should be shot on bare principles. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you mean he hasn't caused others harm? The fact that he's taken TOD (thousands of dollars) away from the war effort, money that could have been spent making checkpoints safer, repairing vehicles, and hiring Iraqi policemen, then basically said "Nice, now I'll take it and run, because I don't like the war" is pretty harmful in my book.
Not to mention the fact that his unit might have been ambushed at any point in their stay in Iraq, and he might have been the one to make the difference between lots of casualties and none.
I'm reminded of a time I played on CoFR and Stoneburg wanted to relocate to main aft on NS_Bast. He told everyone to go to main aft, knowing that the aliens' main hive was in engine. I, being the leet "i know better than my comm" player, ran off by myself to establish control elsewhere. It wasn't that I was a bad player, in fact I managed to do quite a bit while I was out ramboing. But the fact that I directly disobeyed my commander's order to go to main aft resulted in the relocation attempt failing, and us losing - we would most definitely have won otherwise. It really did come down to a single marine; the IP was almost completely built when the skulk killed the last marine. So don't think that "oh, one person won't matter." Because he will, in one way or another.
Comments
In any case, the situation shifted drastically since the end of the Cold War. It was forseeable that both the United States and Soviet Union blocked each other before that point, but afterwards, there was a chance of agreement - see the first Gulf War as reference.
This does not mean that I consider the Security Council a good thing, mind you, I merely point out that it is, under the treaties the United States' administrations have traditionally put great emphasis on when their possible outcome was favorable for themselves, the basis of international law, period.
So a 17 year old signs up for financial and educational reasons, which quite a few people I know have. Like he said, he was naive. He's thinking you do your time, get a good education. Suddenly this whole business starts up he couldn't have seen coming. From his point of view, it's an illegal war, and he is morally (and legally from his viewpoint, if you believe that the war is illegal as I do) obligated to not take part in it. He seeks refuge in Canada.
Really, I don't see how this should result in him being shot or hanged. Frankly, I'm disgusted with the cries of "Shoot the ****" and "Bring out the rope". If this goes poorly for him most likely he will be imprisoned, but the attitude I'm seeing displayed towards him sickens me.
I sort of feel two ways about whether or not he is in the right (Moral right etc vs. Man-made laws, reminds me all too much of Billy Budd), but these calls for the hanging of Brandon Hu*** have sufficiently disturbed me enough that I would risk posting in a discussion thread.
You know its funny to hear people talk about the war in Iraq correcting the US mistake of supporting Sadam, but when this guy tries to correct his mistake of joining the army he gets no simpathy... makes sense, he's not rich enough to anything but a body for the aristocracy right?
Seriously people, he joined thinking that if he DID have to fight, it would be for a good cause, instead he gets shoved in the middle of all this Iraq BULLSH*T and decides that he doesn't want to be a part of it. I can certainly understand wanting to see him suffer some form of punishment (one should accept the consequences of their actions, if they are resonable) but this zealotous cry for blood makes me discusted to be a part of this community.
He can yap all he wants about "moral objections" - we all know why he didnt go. The same reason anyone who would back out of a legal contract with their country would - hes a coward. He lacks integrity.
Soldiers do not sign up to fight "If they think that this is honestly a good idea" - they sign up to serve their country. Their democratically elected leaders ordered them to go fight in a war - and this excuse for a human defied that.
I reissue Grendel's call - SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE!
Soldiers do not sign up to fight "If they think that this is honestly a good idea" - they sign up to serve their country. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you have some magical phsycic powers that you haven't told us about, it is imposible for you to know for certain what his real motives are. His claim seems perfectly valid to me, and he has international law on his side (sorta).
BTW, Bush went AWOL for a whole year (BTW, this is legally defined as Desertion), why are you all not calling for him to be shot in the face? Because hes the president now? Because he did it during peacetime (its still a contract...), or because hes rich and well connected? Seriously, how is what he did any different from what this guy did... Oh wait I know, Bush skipped out just because he could, this guy had a moral objection.
I'm going to stop posting in this thread, it sickens me.
Yeah, no kidding.
Hey, before we shoot him in the face, why don't we bring his family in to watch? <b>That'll</b> teach them a lesson.
Huh. I thought we labeled Saddam as some inhumanly evil and merciless monster for going so cruelly overboard like this. Again, guess it's all a matter of perspective, and which end of the cruelty you're on.
The hell he has international law on his side - the USA didnt order him to shoot civilians. They havent asked him to break a single law of the Geneva Convention - they merely ordered his unit to Iraq for service. He didnt go along and then refuse to fight - he ran like a nancy to Canadia. I'm sure he wasnt the only man who felt like that, but the rest of them faced up to their RESPONSIBILTY. They went along because their duty to both their country (in contract) and to their fellow soldiers obligated them to.
The armies of the West have a long history of executing those soldiers who betray their peers and country, because that kind of crap is contagious. It happened in WW1, it happened in WW2, and technically we are allowed to do it now.
I issued to call to shoot him in the face not in the hope someone will listen and actually do it, though I would have no problem with that, but to express my extreme revulsion for his behaviour. The fact is that he wont be shot, no matter how much he deserves it - but I hope they throw him in jail for the rest of his life.
Bush went AWOL - he should be punished for that according to standard military law. But it was peace time, he didnt go AWOL to save his skin (I could be wrong there - correct me if you know better), and he in no way sold out either his country or his peers. As far as I know, going awol does NOT constitute desertion unless you leave without planning to return, or leave when your unit has been called for active service. Its not the same - that much should be obvious.
I respect his decision to leave in order to avoid service in Iraq, but did he not have any opportunity to serve in other operations? I was thinking about joining the military reserve (in Canada) earlier this year, and if during my training, I was told I would be going to Iraq, I would refuse to take part in it as well.
On the other hand, I wouldn't immediately break my contract. Couldn't he have requested to partake in a different operation, like Afghanistan. Now that's a country I wouldn't disagree with in serving, and I don't see what he would find morally objectionable in serving there either. All these assumptions about him being a coward and a thief would blown away as well.
But the site doesn't make any mention about it. It doesn't seem to imply that they would force him to serve in Iraq (yet). If they did, then he could of brought up his moral objections and insisted on being sent to a work in a different operation. If they still wouldn't allow him to do that, then I would sympathize with his desertion.
As of now, the details provided don't suggest this.
"Correcting the Iraq mistake" has already not only involved, but also <i>cost</i> hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, not only in the Gulf War, which was mostly US trying to get to be good pals with Saudi-Arabia for obvious reasons, but also with the ten-year economic sanctions that practically destroyed the public (and private) health care system of the country, and with another war after that. Compared to all this one man's escape from the US to Canada is absolutely nothing. Please do try to see things in their rightful proportions.
bush went AWOL between 72 and 73 (possibly longer).
He was due to serve with the homeguard,
Im not sure if this is considered 'during peace time' as Vietnam was still going on.
as in interesting aside..
Did you know Bush was trained to pilot an aircraft which went out of service the very same year his training finished? ... convinient eh!
Wierd - I could have sworn the embargo didnt extend to medicines. Please explain to me how economic sanctions against Iraq destroyed their health care. And please, dont say they couldnt afford things after that - Saddam lived in luxury of that little license to print money we like to call oil.
Oh, and forgive me for not sobbing over those Iraqi lives lost in the attempt to liberate them - from the mass graves found all over the country, people were going to die any way this went. Except had we followed the brilliant, caring left wing plan (let them rot, no war rarara) at the end of the day they'd still be under Saddam - while now they have a chance at freedom and peace. For shame America!
I'm not attempting to compare a war to one man's cowardice - I cant see where you got that idea from.
If Bush went AWOL for that period of time, and according to Skulkbait going AWOL for over 30 days with no evidence to return constitutes desertion, then he should have been punished. I would be really interested in hearing what actually happened to him.
However, Bush's unit was not ordered to fight. He didnt go AWOL because he was a coward. This man did. He claims he did it because he objects to the war in Iraq. If he had balls, he would have objected, and then suffer the consequences of his moral objection. But he didnt, because he was a **** - he fled to another country to avoid the consequences of his actions. Bush may have done the wrong thing - but this guy is in a league of his own.
I'd just give him a rap on the knuckles, end the contract, and not pay anymore for his college fees. I think prison's a bit extreme.
As for Bush...well, I'm not sure what to believe there. I've read that he was shown favouritism and put into a unit which had very low chance of seeing action, but I've also read rebuttals. I seem to remember Moore having something to do with digging up the dirt, which makes me write it off on reflex.
If Bush Jnr. did desert, and Bush Snr. helped him avoid the war by manipulation, then yeah, they should be punished.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maximum punishment.
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
<b>(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's that simple, have him returned and punished. He knew damn well what he was doing, he wanted a free ride off the system and when the time came to fight for his country he ran away. I doubt he ever had any intent to serve the military unless Russian paratroopers came crashing through his bedroom window. He disgusts me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
3) Seems to be out then. We're not really at war right ? At least that is what seems convenient for the present US leadership.
I think he should be shot for trying to hide his grasping, selfish, exploitative, cowardly nature behind a legitimate issue and for reneging on a contract that explicitly includes the condition that you may have to be shot at as part of your job requirements.
He shouldn't be shot, something along the lines of a fine should do fine...a big juicy one.
I know someone who went AWOL with two others. The story behind it is actually pretty funny but in the end they just put him in a military jail for a couple of weeks. This was during peace time. The other two got kicked out. He was lucky.
Ok for all who are claiming Bush went AWOL, you need to do a little research. You cannot go AWOL in a reserver unit unless it was federalized. His unit was never federalized, therefore he was never AWOL. If this was the case my best friend would have to be shot too, because his ride to his monthly reserve unit wasnt picking him up. and he didnt have a car. His unit was later sent to iraq and he was transfered to another unit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is nuts. If he voulenteered to give blood at a blood bank, and then decdied not to, would he be shot in the face? I think not. He isn't off home soil yet so he should just get a fine of the amount it cost to train/accomodate him so far. This isn't some huge crime that killed hundreds of people. If they needed people to fight the "war" in Iraq, they would have a draft, however they do not. So killing/imprisoning someone for de-voulenteering in a time of no-crisis is complete bull. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the blood bank spent thousands of dollars to train him and provided him with room and board. Then when it came time for him to live up to his end of the contract and he ran, than it would be deserving of punishment. How would you feel if you payed someone thousands of dollars to perform a job and than that person runs off with your money, cause you just did.
I think would be more accurate: guy goes to bloodbank and prepares to donate blood for some cash, but then he get's to know that his blood is to be used in satanic ritual by couple of whackos. He bails out with the money because his morals say that 'satanic rituals' ain't his thing and he doesn't want to be any part of them.
Meh.
Grendel, what would you think had happened if he refused to obey orders in iraq?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually no its not
Your comparison would imply that brandon was blindly signing up for some undisclosed government job. He knowing signed up for a job that call him to go to war; and when it did he, he ran. Unless in your example the guy went ing knowing the blood was going to be used in a ritual and was upset that it wasnt going to the devil he liked, the example is wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually no its not
Your comparison would imply that brandon was blindly signing up for some undisclosed government job. He knowing signed up for a job that call him to go to war; and when it did he, he ran. Unless in your example the guy went ing knowing the blood was going to be used in a ritual and was upset that it wasnt going to the devil he liked, the example is wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright I'll respin the analogy.
The guy goes to the bloodbank and prepares to donate blood for some cash knowing that there is a chance he could die in the process. Then he learns that the blood is going to have HIV added to it intentionally before it is distributed into the hospital system. He then bails out because giving people HIV with his blood isn't his thing.
I shall list my reasons and that is really all I can say.
1) He signed up voluntarily was not forced in anyway, shape or form. Considering this even with one being only 17 that is not an excuse. (edited in) I was much like anyone who has lived in the US and been through HS attempted to be recurited. I even was able to take there ASVAB/P? test which tells you what jobs you would do well at while in the military. Even the non-combat ones. The recruiters here tried very hard to get a lot of people to join and I would say they had a sucess rate of about 30% which is more then I expected. Many of those people were friends of mine and are in Iraq right now, we just (south dakota) shipped some fresh troops over there. With him being 17, and I was the same aged when asked, I said no for I would pay my own way into college that was my choice. He opted for the easier way (in money wise, college is DAMN expensive) and now he is complaining.
2) The military will pay for his education when he completes however long he signed up for. That is a fact, and considering most college graduates have 10,000 to 50,000 or more if going for docorate/masters in debt, I think it is a fair trade.
3) If he doesn't think the war is just/moral and what not, he can file a compliant with his superiors, granted it will do nothing, and would not damage his "file" that the military keeps other then a small comment noting his objections.
4) The military does what it is told to do. It is a very well thought out machine and works very efficently, thus why soldiers when they are done are always welcome to the workforce, because they have the heightened disiclpine and awaress of what is around them.
5) IT IS YOUR DUTY. As previously stated if you do not want to join, you do not have to. Since there is no draft(at the moment) one does not have to worry about being FORCED to do something you do not want to when it comes to military matters.
Those are simply my views on why it is not approiate for him to have fled to canada. I will probably have many people going on and on about (SUYF etc) so feel free to do so.
Even though I do not agree with the "war" though I wouldn't call it that since we have not offically declared war. I still think the military is doing all that it can do make sure our boys and girls are doing a wonderful job over there. So, all the more power to those choosing to fight for our country and uphold the faith that I have in our military.
(edited at same time as #1 was)
For those that are going to compare Iraq vs Vietnam or even Korea. Don't bother you really can't compare the two. We do not have nearly as many soldiers in the field nor even a 1/4 of the deaths and there is no draft to boot. The "war" in Iraq is not a good thing other then freeing a people that really do not know any better, and probably will see history repeat as that area is incredibly unstable.
(edit #2)
I noticed that the site seems to only post letters that support him and are majority out of the US. If I am wrong feel free to correct me on the from outside the US part. I do not think that represents the US very well in what it conveys. :-)
(Yes.. one of my longer posts) :-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't support him for the same reasons as you.
If your primary goal is to earn money for college or job training and not to serve your country in whatever capacity you are requested to, then you're really rolling the dice. Sometimes you win; sometimes you lose. But if you lose, you'd better be prepared to write that check.
(edit, forgot to say this) If not, you should expect to be punished according to the terms of your enlistment.
However, those of you who would villify this ignorant kid would do best to remember the following about our commander in chief (from msnbc):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, he didn't want to go to Vietnam. Draft deferments for graduate school were ending that spring of 1968. The Texas Air National Guard offered another way. "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada," Bush explained to The Dallas Morning News back in 1990. "So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, of course, came at the cost of close to one million dollars of taxpayer money, with no intention of employing that training overseas. Additionally, the evidence of him fullfilling his obligations is thin at best.
I'm not trying to turn this into a partisan battle-- Clinton was certainly no better, and Hell, I certainly would have done everything in my power to avoid that war. Just to put some perspective on this-- if you're going to hang one, you might as well hang the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow... Suprised to see that from you. Though I would like you to take a closer look at what exactly kerry got his purple hearts for.
You seem to be an honest liberal, I respect that, even for all the past arguments we've had.
As for version19x (sorry can't remember your name), do Blood Banks pay tons of money to train you?
What do you mean he hasn't caused others harm? The fact that he's taken TOD (thousands of dollars) away from the war effort, money that could have been spent making checkpoints safer, repairing vehicles, and hiring Iraqi policemen, then basically said "Nice, now I'll take it and run, because I don't like the war" is pretty harmful in my book.
Not to mention the fact that his unit might have been ambushed at any point in their stay in Iraq, and he might have been the one to make the difference between lots of casualties and none.
I'm reminded of a time I played on CoFR and Stoneburg wanted to relocate to main aft on NS_Bast. He told everyone to go to main aft, knowing that the aliens' main hive was in engine. I, being the leet "i know better than my comm" player, ran off by myself to establish control elsewhere. It wasn't that I was a bad player, in fact I managed to do quite a bit while I was out ramboing. But the fact that I directly disobeyed my commander's order to go to main aft resulted in the relocation attempt failing, and us losing - we would most definitely have won otherwise. It really did come down to a single marine; the IP was almost completely built when the skulk killed the last marine. So don't think that "oh, one person won't matter." Because he will, in one way or another.