Ufos
Dread
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">as in alien crafts</div> So, a non-political discussion for a change.
I'm not a firm UFO believer myself and it's really easy to call it all just a one big hoax. However when you do a little research, the amount of evidence is staggering. All the photos, videos and pictures dating back hundreds and thousands of years. Farmers, cops, soldiers, pilots, thousands of normal people reporting UFO sightings.
So here's what I'd like to discuss:
-Is there really flying saucers?
-Are they some government project or really another race from space(mmm...rhymes)
-Have they contacted us/some government? Are they hiding the evidence from us?
-If aliens indeed do exist, does that mean there is no God, as the human race doesn't seem to be the only pet project of God(and apparently not the most intelligent race)?
The truth is in here.
<a href='http://www.alien-ufos.com/ufosandaliens.shtml' target='_blank'>A linky</a> and a few pictures to get it started:
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/mexico3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/cityufo1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.brainstrain.cropcircle.iwarp.com/crop%20circle%201.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I'm not a firm UFO believer myself and it's really easy to call it all just a one big hoax. However when you do a little research, the amount of evidence is staggering. All the photos, videos and pictures dating back hundreds and thousands of years. Farmers, cops, soldiers, pilots, thousands of normal people reporting UFO sightings.
So here's what I'd like to discuss:
-Is there really flying saucers?
-Are they some government project or really another race from space(mmm...rhymes)
-Have they contacted us/some government? Are they hiding the evidence from us?
-If aliens indeed do exist, does that mean there is no God, as the human race doesn't seem to be the only pet project of God(and apparently not the most intelligent race)?
The truth is in here.
<a href='http://www.alien-ufos.com/ufosandaliens.shtml' target='_blank'>A linky</a> and a few pictures to get it started:
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/mexico3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/cityufo1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.brainstrain.cropcircle.iwarp.com/crop%20circle%201.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Comments
-Is there really flying saucers?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends on how **** off your girlfreind is <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Are they some government project or really another race from space(mmm...rhymes)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriosly, if there are really aircraft that look like and preform the way "flying saucers" apparently do, I resist greatly the possibility that any current day human government is responsible for them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Have they contacted us/some government? Are they hiding the evidence from us?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't see how this would be proved either way, but I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of "abductions" are little more than delusions. As strange as it might seem, I find it hard to belive that species that activly take part in intersteller travel are as intrested in farmers and truckers butts as some might claim they are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-If aliens indeed do exist, does that mean there is no God, as the human race doesn't seem to be the only pet project of God(and apparently not the most intelligent race)?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, it just means we know alot less about God then we would like to think we do. Hopefully the aliens would know more.
[edit] BTW crop circles arn't made by flying saucers or aliens of any kind. It's a little known but thriving underground art comunity that is responsible for them.
Actually not so underground, and they take responsibility for only some circles and afaik, they started their action after the circles started appearing. As in they started imitating.
And not to mention, USAF has a special crop circle investigation unit, and even though they face many 'hoax' circles, there's also a lot of real ones, not made by man.
The evidence is very shaky, and the UFO community is doing more harm then good to its self by using pictures such as these little gems I found.
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/novascotia.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/planeufo.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/greatwall.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I don't want to yell "weather balloon" but almost all of these pictures(there are tons more around) could easily be anything. Plus they could be edited very easily.
As for crop circles they have been pretty much proven as man made.
<a href='http://www.circlemakers.org/' target='_blank'>http://www.circlemakers.org/</a>
<a href='http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2003.html' target='_blank'>http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2003.html</a>
Like I said I believe there are other intelligent life forms out there, but I highly doubt they have anything to do with our governments, round ships that look oddly like paper plates glued together, or pretty yet meaningless designs in farmer’s backyards.
The chances of another planet being suitable for life are so small (as in infitesimally small), I am pretty sure we are the only ones out here. If I wasn't religious myself, I would group aliens with religion in the "weak humans needing something special to believe in to make life worthwhile" group. However, being religious, I could not do that, because I would be putting myself in a group that I do not feel I belong in. I do think that there is an innate sense of the "supernatural" (used in a very loose sense to mean "something that science cannot explain") in everyone. Some have learnt (conciously or otherwise) to surpress it, but it is there. Personally, I believe it was put there by God when we were created, as a part of the soul that has not forgotten where it came from (God himself). UFOs (and (possibly) other religions) are just a way to try to fulfill that longing.
In conclusion, I believe UFOs are (to put it bluntly) a figment of the imagination, stirred up by a deep desire for something unexplicable to believe in.
<a href='http://www.circlemakers.org/' target='_blank'>http://www.circlemakers.org/</a>
<a href='http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2003.html' target='_blank'>http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2003.html</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm aware of the cropmaker society, but they are just imitating something they first saw on tv or read on newspapers. Where did it really start and who started it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On July 23-24, 2003, a private scientific research team documented physical evidence that confirmed Art Rantala?s eyewitness observation that the Mayville/Kekoskee, Wisconsin crop circle formation was not made by hoaxers. The team consisted of Gary Kahlimer of Horicon, Wisconsin, Dr. Charles Lietzau and Jeffrey Wilson of Michigan, and Roger Sugden of Indiana. Arriving at the field on July 23, 2002, we discovered and photographed the presence of several anomalies that cannot be duplicated by hoaxers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.zetatalk.com/index/cropcir1.htm' target='_blank'>Linky.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-1337lerk+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1337lerk)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but i dont think that they would waste their time watching earth unless they wanted out planet <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 'they' use as much time as we do on scientific research and if there really is as few intelligent beings in the universe as they say, I'd guess all they want to do is study us. I mean if they wanted resources, they prolly could harvest any planet in the galaxy, but ours is special because we are in here.
Edit: spelling
In conclusion, reports of UFOs should be treated with extreme skepticism.
It is also rather unlikely that any other intelligent life in the universe knows we exist, after all we have only be making broadcasts that can penetrate our own atmosphere for 60 or so years, and we have been actually exploring outside our own atmosphere for even less time. There are a lot of stars out there and for any spacefaring race to simply happen upon ours by chance, especially since any alien race would most likely be bound by the same spacefaring limitations we are (limited energy, limited time, and limited speed) would be a long shot to say the least.
And even when one takes the argument home we see no real evidence of aliens in our region. If there were for example, a benign alien race visiting earth, they would most likely find better ways to contact us than with crop circles or appearing to random people at night, and if these aliens existed here in the numbers that many people say they do, they would most likely be communicating with each other correct? And if they were why have we not detected any of their radio traffic? Keep in mind that we have had radio telescopes scanning the skies for any sort of signal across the band that had any sort of repeditive or otherwise intelligent nature to it.
And let's say these aliens have taken VERY special care not to be spotted by any human technologies, they have some sort of prime directive type law that forbids them from interfering with us, and all they can do is study. Well they havn't done a very good job of that, now have they? They have left all these crop circles and people with vivid memories of being abducted behind.
And let us then come to a warlike race, bent on conquering the Earth (what reason they would have to come all this way and actually take the time to conquer an inhabited planet where ther must be thousands of uninhabited ones that are suitable for colonization we do not know), their actions make no sense either. People have been reporting abductions for many years, since long before we had any sort of way to defend ourselves but yet they left us alone. Any self-respecting conquering reace would have wiped us out before we had the means to destroy ourselves, but yet we are still here.
So it's pretty plain to see that any theory of aliens visiting Earth is pretty implausible.
I think those are the lines left by the investigators so as to not trample the crop circle.
Creepy, ain't it?
I think it's worth pointing out that people confuse the term UFO as being synonymous with "alien". All it is is exactly what it says on the tin - an <i>unknown flying object</i>. If it's flying and it can't be identified, then it's a UFO. That's not to say that it <i>can't</i> be an alien craft, but I do think that it's rather unlikely. I don't see what benefit a race advanced enough to have developed a viable method of travelling between stars could have in having anything to do with humanity; not, at least, until we have achieved such a method of travel ourselves. There doesn't seem much point in travelling all that distance to just hover around in the atmosphere and have people take suspect snaps of them. Not unless they have an odd sense of humour and like seeing conspiracy theorists having conniptions over the latest badly exposed pic of a vaguely cigar-shaped blob.
Of course the existence of other life-bearing planets seems an inevitability to me. It's just a matter of numbers, and the universe is damn well full of them. I just think that the probability of any of these worlds developing a habit of buzzing earth (hooray for Douglas Adams!) is decidedly low. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Now I realize that there's always another explination for things like this (spacing out, for example), but I personally don't know what else causes a person to have a 5 hour lapse in time without even realizing it.
Now I realize that there's always another explination for things like this (spacing out, for example), but I personally don't know what else causes a person to have a 5 hour lapse in time without even realizing it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That happened to a friend of mine, for nearly 2 hours. Funny thing was the house was full of people and none of them experianced either missing time, or knowticed he was gone (hence he was almost definatly not gone). We have always both just guessed that it's an undocumented glitch in the human mindscape.
Temporary long/short-term memory loss?
Who knows how "Time loss" actually happens.
But anyways, the main problem with the photographs is that they're too low of a resolution to make heads-or-tales of them, and on top of that they are often taken in poor weather conditions (raining, fogged, cloudy, etc) and the video tapes suffer from the same. of course, a flying object no bigger then a F-16 being seen somewhere around 5 or more miles away will always be a blur on all but the best photography equipment...
never the less, seeing high counts of lights flying in the sky at the same rate, or appearing to move in odd ways is always shocking; unless they're fire flys.
And, seeing that the air force is involved can mean only that:
1) the UFOs are obviously flying objects of great interest. since when has a "weather balloon" required armed men to recover? within their own country?
2) Whatever it is, obviously flys in odd ways. Of course, many aircraft that are known to have been made and can be seen (without the risk of getting shot <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) moving in odd ways, anyways (Vertical Take Off and Landing AKA VTOL. Think helicopters and jet engines that can be rotated to provide vertical thrust instead of horizontal.)
3) Because they are of great interest, and they move in odd ways, it can only be assumed it's a new "tool" (ha ha ha, yeah right.) for use by either the military or sold comercially (first company to make a hover car... hmm... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
What makes you think that?
What are the chances?... taking a completely unscientific approach, let's see: there are 9 planets we have a good visual on... 1 of which, earth, supports intelligent life. So that's 1 out of 9. Chances don't seem too bad with a bazillion planets out there we can't see. Hehe.
Of course, if we were the only planet in our solar system, it would be a 100% chance... clearly there's something wrong with this argument... lol
ANYWAY I want (and am attempting to provoke) an argument why the "chances" of ET's existence are so low!
What makes you think that?
What are the chances?... taking a completely unscientific approach, let's see: there are 9 planets we have a good visual on... 1 of which, earth, supports intelligent life. So that's 1 out of 9. Chances don't seem too bad with a bazillion planets out there we can't see. Hehe.
Of course, if we were the only planet in our solar system, it would be a 100% chance... clearly there's something wrong with this argument... lol
ANYWAY I want (and am attempting to provoke) an argument why the "chances" of ET's existence are so low! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll further that non scientific approach. Mars is acctually capable of supporting simple lifeforms even right now, there just is currently no life on it.
The odds of a planet being capable of supporting life are probably not acctually that low, the governing factor of the commenality of life in the universe are the odds of life spontaniously appearing out of naturally occuring molecular combinations.
So far our best estimates seem grim at best, but it is all entirely possible that there is a factor we are missing.
What makes you think that?
What are the chances?... taking a completely unscientific approach, let's see: there are 9 planets we have a good visual on... 1 of which, earth, supports intelligent life. So that's 1 out of 9. Chances don't seem too bad with a bazillion planets out there we can't see. Hehe.
Of course, if we were the only planet in our solar system, it would be a 100% chance... clearly there's something wrong with this argument... lol
ANYWAY I want (and am attempting to provoke) an argument why the "chances" of ET's existence are so low! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll further that non scientific approach. Mars is acctually capable of supporting simple lifeforms even right now, there just is currently no life on it.
The odds of a planet being capable of supporting life are probably not acctually that low, the governing factor of the commenality of life in the universe are the odds of life spontaniously appearing out of naturally occuring molecular combinations.
So far our best estimates seem grim at best, but it is all entirely possible that there is a factor we are missing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, we really can't say how likely life is, because we only have one example, and we really haven't been to many other solar systems to take a look around at their planets. So far, the only planets that can really be detected are Jupiter-type gas giants, because they make their stars wobble.
Mars may at once have been capable of supporting life, but it's now too cold, and has too little atmosphere.
Also, "life" is pretty hard to define. The boundary between life and non-life is pretty fuzzy, like with viruses. Most people will tell you viruses are not alive, because they can't reproduce on their own. However, there are many parasites that can't reproduce on their own...
What makes you think that?
What are the chances?... taking a completely unscientific approach, let's see: there are 9 planets we have a good visual on... 1 of which, earth, supports intelligent life. So that's 1 out of 9. Chances don't seem too bad with a bazillion planets out there we can't see. Hehe.
Of course, if we were the only planet in our solar system, it would be a 100% chance... clearly there's something wrong with this argument... lol
ANYWAY I want (and am attempting to provoke) an argument why the "chances" of ET's existence are so low! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, as you have said yourself, the unscientific approach is absurd.
Let me give you some facts.
The Physicist Paul Davies estimated that for every time a Big Bang produced a universe where life was possible, there would be 1,000 billion billion billion where life was impossible. Please note that there is not a shred of evidence that even 1 other universe exists, let alone the other 1000 billion billion billion that might be required.
If we take the universe as we know it, there are an amazing array of coincidental factors which had to be just right before Life could be supported anywhere in the universe
If the ratio of Carbon to qxygen had been slightly different, no life would have formed.
If the mass of a proton was increased by 0.2 percent, hydrogen would have been unstable and no life would have formed.
The temperature at which life forms is only 1-2 percent of the total temperature range, the earth is at the correct distance from the sun, with the right rotational speed and just the right size, with a special atmosphere which protects earth and evens out the temperature extremes.
The really good news is that this planet, with all the right factors, also contained enough metals (especially Iron), enough radioactive elements to provide the right heat source, and enough water forming compounds.
Perhaps the temperature range could be obtained another way. But the earth shows how delicate and multi faceted are the independent factors involved in maintaining the correct temperature for life.
Ok, I will admit, those factors are for supporting life as we know it. So what about life as we don't know it? Could it exist? What would it be like? More importantly, would we recognise it as life?
From having to watch UFO programs with my sister, I've decided that the aliens supposedly out there are major league jerks anyway. If they're so advanced, there's no need for anal probing. They can effectively travel faster than light, but have no advanced scanning equipment? And why haven't they given me psychic powers? Stupid aliens.
I agree with Boggle (to an extent) - we all need to feel that something's out there <i>like us</i>, whether it be ghosts or aliens or God. On a planet full of animals, we're unique. We're also alone.
And here's a few pics.
I think this one was taken by a news photographer and made it in newspaper front pages in Mexico:
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/popocatepeti/pop.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This one in beligium, there's also a video of this and several people reported seeing it:
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/belgium.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Belgian F16 chasing the previous UFO(and losing it):
<img src='http://www.alien-ufos.com/img/ufos/radar2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I would like some non-believer to explain me this. What government had a triangular VTOL fighter that could outperform a F16 in 1990? What government tests its newest secret fighter in enemy air space, where it can be shot down or in case of malfunction, the technology will be captured by the other country(and they likely get angry at you for violating airspace in the first place)? What government uses its newest fighter to hover in low altutudes all lights on in a foreign country, so it can be filmed?
Yeah. Answer that and I give you a cookie <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ok, here's the deal... yes, if any of the fundamental physical constants/particles were different the universe wouldn't work. They have to be just right for the universe to work. The problem with your argument is... WE'RE LIVING IN THAT UNIVERSE WHERE IT WORKS ALREADY!!!!!!! And there are a zillion other planets that are in our functioning universe. So... basically this argument does nothing for me.
Just to be sure... we're still talking about aliens; not an argument for divine creation, right?
That "argument" wasn't trying to refute life on other planets. Heck, it wasn;t even an argument in the first place, it was just a warming up statement. Maybe you would like to turn your attention to the rest of my post.
To save you the effort of scolling all the way up, I will quote it here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If we take the universe as we know it, there are an amazing array of coincidental factors which had to be just right before Life could be supported anywhere in the universe
If the ratio of Carbon to qxygen had been slightly different, no life would have formed.
If the mass of a proton was increased by 0.2 percent, hydrogen would have been unstable and no life would have formed.
The temperature at which life forms is only 1-2 percent of the total temperature range, the earth is at the correct distance from the sun, with the right rotational speed and just the right size, with a special atmosphere which protects earth and evens out the temperature extremes.
The really good news is that this planet, with all the right factors, also contained enough metals (especially Iron), enough radioactive elements to provide the right heat source, and enough water forming compounds.
Perhaps the temperature range could be obtained another way. But the earth shows how delicate and multi faceted are the independent factors involved in maintaining the correct temperature for life.
Ok, I will admit, those factors are for supporting life as we know it. So what about life as we don't know it? Could it exist? What would it be like? More importantly, would we recognise it as life? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NANITES!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*waits for cookies*
If ther eis a higher race of intelligent creatures out there... why haven't they:
a.) Blown us up
b.) Enslaved us
c.) Made contact with us to share technology
perhaps its because:
a.) They want to study how our society advances on it's own
b.) We would be a waste of plasma cannon energy
c.) There is a universal quarentine on our planet (deseases, viruses and whatnot)
d.) They feel our culture hasn't advanced enough to interact with their culture
e.) They feel our culture cannot be trusted with more techology (but if thats the case... wouldn't they blow us up once we reached a certian point in technology?)
f.) We smell bad
Now, in a thousand years or so... WE will be the aliens hovering over someone else's planet. hopefully by then we have matured to the point where the race as a whole can make a rational decision on the subject.
That "argument" wasn't trying to refute life on other planets. Heck, it wasn;t even an argument in the first place, it was just a warming up statement. Maybe you would like to turn your attention to the rest of my post.
To save you the effort of scolling all the way up, I will quote it here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks. I read your post. I don't appreciate it when people try to add to the weight of their argument by throwing on extra garbage, so if it's not part of what you're trying to say, don't bother. Except, I do think it is part of what you were trying to say. Further in your post you mention the mass of a proton, which is back to the fundamental physics that make up the universe. The only other points you make are the temperature of the planet, and the elemental composition of the planet.
I would argue that due to the physics of planet formation, very similar processes occur throughout the universe that lead to archetypal elemental spectra in planets, just as there are in stars. This is because of the nuclear reactions that take place which result in very recognizable patterns in their(stars') compositions. And these nuclear reactions happen as they do because of the fundamental physical properties of our universe. If you think the earth has rare composition even so, show me all the planets that are different; like I said before, 1/9 isn't all that rare.
So, to me, either you're making an argument about how lucky we are that the universe works the way it does, or, if you're not talking about that, you're just making an argument about the temperature/solar system location of the earth.
Of course it can. The fact that life can exist in a variety of extremes is easy to see, from the edge of underwater volcanoes to the ice caps life can be found. The most basic components of life are quite easy to make, they've been replicated in a variety of tests with only the simplest of atmospheric elements and a little eletrical energy, at this point it's only a matter of time and probability before these basic molecules combine into more complex molecules that have the ability to replicate themselves, and ta-da! Life.