Fades Still A Problem

Diablus · May 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">they limit the marine tech strats.STILL</div> Nornally you see a fade 3 minutes into a game. Now to kill a fade you say "drop Shotguns" well shotguns require resources. Fades own resource towers. Shotguns are 10 res. drop them to a team requires the resources that the fade is killing. Get a good fade and the games over. Get 2 fades 3 minutes into the game. both keep marines in thier base by attacking and killing ips while the rest of the alien team expands around the map. Now unless you have a comm who knows what he/she is doing. with a good team who are pretty good with thier aim. your going to lose, regardless if you kill 1 of the 2 fades. Now i state that they limit marine tech strategies is that they FORCE marines to go weapons 2/armor 1. Marines have a hard time MT rushing, Tech rushing, etc. I think theyre comming too early into the games where strategies are still being developed.

Norml_E_High · May 2004

Fades usually won't be a problem to marines AND RTs, mainly because they will let skulks do the Rts unless they have been upgraded to the bug zapper. Then the fade is busy killing the electric RTs because he's the only one that can at the moment.

UKchaos · May 2004

Electried RTs arent really a problem either since it takes so long to profit from them and a good fade will alternate between taking them down and defending againt marine pressure. Remember you dont have to kill fades right away, just keep them damaged so bad that they are forced to be in constant retreat, allowing you to control the map.

SaltzBad · May 2004

I think your comms are too slow. You have plenty of time to MT rush, and theres no tech requirement for fighting Fades short of A1.

ssjyoda · May 2004

there is a lot more required than armour 1... well, depends on the skill of the fades. I always do think of the top clan guys.. heh

CommunistWithAGun · May 2004

Fades aren't a problem 3 shotgun shots will down a regen fade easily.

LittleToe · May 2004

fade = paper agains a few sg's

SaltzBad · May 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ May 29 2004, 08:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> there is a lot more required than armour 1... well, depends on the skill of the fades. I always do think of the top clan guys.. heh </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Read the word "tech". Shotguns have no research time. Maybe if you want to be complete, PGs are really helpful too, since you have a harder time regaining territory with Fades around.

Weapon levels are highly overrated, the most dramatic effect is achieved by the method of delivery. The main reason to rush them is team morale, not actual effectiveness. They're in no way necessary to hold off Fades and other lifeforms - upgrade reliability and ease of availability does make them something you want to constantly be researching though.

A good example was a 6v6 tanith today, which we played with nodeblocking, denying aliens any RT past the first one (we never managed to assault that RT, unfortunately - but they never got a second). At 6:00 we had just managed A1, Phasetech and an AA (for a later JP rush) - and they got Fades on one node at that point. They still couldn't stop us with amazing level 0 weapons (The fades where one MoI [aka ~o] and one exigent if I recall correctly).

Emanon · May 2004

Try different strats, Personally when I know there are alot of quality fades on the opposing team I will get them Motion tracking and tell my team to attack their nodes. This way you keep the pressure around their hive and make the fades come out an extra 3 min late cause they only have 1 node.

Motion first is still viable like in the good old days.

Wirhe · May 2004

Oh, sure; now we need to nerf fades just after they have been balanced so well. Kill one fade and it's 50 res wasted, and the more fades, the easier it is to win after they are down. Make-or-break, or use team-play versus lone fades.

NS really isn't diverse game in the strategy aspect, being FPS, so it might be better to stick with proven-good tactics anyway... (At least no one gets ejected this way) <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

Buggy · May 2004

if fades appear even later, what are aliens going to use to kill marines? healspray, spit, parasite? *gasp* skulk bite?1/1/ nahhhh.

TOmekki · May 2004

in a balanced pub game ive never seen a fade at 3 mins.

anyway. to tell the truth, alien early game is a horrible struggle. the release comes after fades start appearing. if there'd be a longer wait aliens would get slaughtered due to the marine tech superiority being overwhelming.

gopher · May 2004

- In games >= 6 vs 6, Fades don't appear before the 4:30 mark, except the fade slaughtered the team as skulk, but then the marine team probably lost anyways.
- Fades die to 3 sg shots, even 3 lmger are a threat to the fade with > wu1

To sum it up: Fades are very good the way they are, certainly not too strong, but maybe a tiny bit too weak (in classic, screw combat =P).

TugBoat · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wirhe @ May 30 2004, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Oh, sure; now we need to nerf fades just after they have been balanced so well. Kill one fade and it's 50 res wasted, and the more fades, the easier it is to win after they are down. Make-or-break, or use team-play versus lone fades.

NS really isn't diverse game in the strategy aspect, being FPS, so it might be better to stick with proven-good tactics anyway... (At least no one gets ejected this way) <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Fades Balanced....

Naa, fades are way to strong, I constantly see fades in CO games getting 40-50 kills and dieing 0-5 times, the problem is swipe, blink, ive seen lvl 3 hmg's countless times not being able to take down a fade that has skill, or hacks.

I think Blink needs looking at, I dont think a fade should be able to fly, as this is what really happens, fades jumping 100 feet in the air, then turning in the air as if they have wings....

To me this is crapo, as a Fade I play in aliens at times, so easy to not die, making the marines get little xp.

Xyrcai · June 2004

If Fade gets nerfed, they'll also have to lower it's res cost.. Seriously. It's worth 50 res now, though I don't find onos worth 75 personally..

Church · June 2004

I totally support nerfing the Fade and making them cost 35 or 40 res. Start by replacing current blink with old blink. Then lower armor.

GunFodder · June 2004

Maybe lower fade attack damage, but buff armor levels slightly, allowing marines to get off a few more shots or get help.

Though with HA it could hurt the aliens even more. Maybe amplify damage as well as armor absorpsion with every hive? Force the aliens to get a second hive before fades can really be effective, cutting down on the prevalence of the 3 minute fade.

This could possibly also lead to new chamber orders, as DCs are primarily picked first because the one hive fade NEEDS regen. With hive 2, the fade will get meta.

SaltzBad · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gopher @ May 30 2004, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> - Fades die to 3 sg shots, even 3 lmger are a threat to the fade with > wu1  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Mostly surroundings are a threat to Fades. And thats their fatal weakness/craptasticness in larger games towards midgame - they're not capable of fighting in some cases on the majority of the map. A tight siege spot and they're fairly useless.

Only when 'rines have to traverse large open spaces do Fades really shine. As the territory gets worse, and the group of marines up to 9 people, Skulks start doing more good than a Fade.

Hell, theres little in the way of an Alien counter to a siegespot like say Cold Turn, except superb coordination and throwing all you have in there with Umbra a boatload of Skulks and 1-2 really, really careful lifeforms. Marines on the other hand have a counter handy to almost any ability (GLs versus umbra, HMGs vs Fades/Onoses, Catpacks vs careful lifeforms, Jetpacks just in case they're really frickin' careful, structure blocking just in case you still suck too much to kill them and a whole arsenal of great toys to rape the **** out of the stock alien lifeform, the Skulk).

When I first joined NS in 2.0 and asked "What the fark do you do against a 2 Hive Onos?", the answer I got was "never let them get that far". Nowadays, the roles are reversed - the only thing you can do against a good marine team is never let them get up to tech. And Fades are only popular because they're the best bet when it comes to doing that - if they fail, they become entirely obsolete.

MrChainsaw · June 2004

Fades do seem a bit too powerful in Co, one good player can really mess up your average server of pubbies, even if they're particularly l33t pubbies(an oxymoron, I know...). And if 50% or more of the alien team goes fade, it's gg, no doubt. I really don't know how they could fix this and keep Fades 1:1 with their NS classic counterparts in hp and armor, but whatever. They aren't game-enders in classic, but it's definitely in the comm's best interest to win the game while all of the aliens are still skulk and gorge(which describes about 90% of the marine wins I've had on pub servers, BORING).

At the very least, I sure wish I could switch my guns as fast as a fade can switch between blink and swipe, that'd be nice and fair.

TOmekki · June 2004

bind q lastinv.

and: if fades are too strong in combat (which they arent, u just can't kill them it seems) let them be. of course its easy for a fade to own rambo marines on co_daimos, but when there's 5 HAHMG in that little tight corridor leading to the co_angst hive, a fade is no good. even with ar.

trust me, apart from acid rocket, fades are fine.

CommunistWithAGun · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jun 1 2004, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I totally support nerfing the Fade and making them cost 35 or 40 res. Start by replacing current blink with old blink. Then lower armor.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Dude, this is a great idea, no sarcasm <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' />

eaglec · June 2004

fades look wrong, feel wring and play wrong but they dont need a nerf they need a change firstly so they no longer resembe the whirling clown of death when blinking about and secondly to make their effectiveness more predictable and easier to access. These changes would result in greater atmosphere and an easier to balance game experience and we have talked in great length about it before.

If any dev missed the topics (how???) I'll gladly forward them a link.

skulk-goes-boom · June 2004

I dun see the problem, a fade cost bout 50 while a shottie cost much less which means when it be fair if a shottie waste a 50 res monster with 2 shots. The real thing that marines can kill fade is "team work" Rine with shottie and others should not run around lone some they should stick together as a big group, if fade comes and slash at someone, shottie should be back with lmg in order to kill one "PROTECT THE DAMN SHOTTIE AT ALL COST" and switch to pistol when it tries to flee.

Btw i think that shottie is really unfair...only 2 points.

Church · June 2004

And the Fade only costs 3. What's your point?

Dantemss · June 2004

Fades aren't overpowered. It's just the chest hitboxes that are bugged. Shoot the legs and the fade is dead.

Kaine · June 2004

only real changes i'd make to fades atm is to give Blink a "cooling off" time, and cost 1.5x - 2x as much energy. it would get rid of the flying fades of dewm because they would simply fall out of the sky, and it would make retreating a little harder because they'll run out of energy before they get back to the hive to heal. the thing that finally convinced me that fades HAVE to change is a game i had tonite that went for over an hour, and we only saw 4 onos IN TOTAL but at one point i had 6 fades ON SCREEN AT ONCE. in a 10 v 10 game, thats just stupid.

SaltzBad · June 2004

So you were losing, whats your point? Aliens should suck even more? :/

TOmekki · June 2004

perhaps the aliens were smart enough to gather res and save them, to launch a massive fade assault. that, or you were too incompetent to kill their rt's and hives. i don't know. tell me the map and the starting positions and i'll tell you what u did wrong.

Wirhe · June 2004

@ Tugboat

I was talking about Classic, not (eygh...) Combat. I don't know one bit about the latter, but in Classic, fades are just fine (at two hives).

Fades Still A Problem

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