Ask yourself how many times the developers look at the boards. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd be interested in seeing statistics of how long it takes aliens to win vs. marines to win. The real problem isn't that aliens CAN'T win, obviously, the problem is that winning as aliens is boring, for everyone. Assaulting MS over and over and dying over and over is dull. Killing marines means nothing when they respawn a few seconds later with a3/w3 and then just run and pick up their HMG again. Thus the repeated call for hive three weapons to be beefed, and for the onos at hive three to be more of a game ender.
As has been said hundreds of times already... Marines closing in on one hive aliens = gg in about one minute. Aliens closing in on marines pushed back into MS = gg in anywhere from 10 - 20 minutes... ugh.
46.4% vs 53.6% - all within +/- 50%, in other words a very balanced overall outcome. You'd think - but <b>these games include bad commanders or small games before the time is up and a switch to co performed</b>. In fact, theres <i>110 games</i> in those stats that lasted under 10 minutes - on a pub, only a tiny amount of the games finish in under 10 minutes in the marines favor (meaning, the absolute teamstacked rapefests). So we can safely guess that a significant number of those games basicly defaulted to aliens because the marine team lacked a reasonable commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the aliens have Onos's it scares the **** outta commanders knowing that this sucka will just maul marine teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it doesn't. He has so many powerful counters to an Onos, its not funny - HMGs, structure blocking, catpacks and jetpacks just to name the most popular ones. The most powerful lifeform the Aliens can field nowadays is the freakin' Lerk, because he has the largest ability to impact the marine earlygame. That in itself is just sad proof of how ineffective most other lifeforms are. Fades, while reasonably strong, both appear 4 minutes into the game and can be limited by terrain heavily depending on the map. Onoses appear 8 minutes into the game, and are extremely limited in their appliance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a marine was loosing a game and he was Heavy Armor and he got killed by a skulk or a lerk (it HAS happened before) then why dont I see them coming up and saying "OMG HA IS TOO WEAK GIVE IT LIKE 2 MILLION ARMOR!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HA costs 15 res, his weapon is re-useable, marine upgrades remain and he's almost gauranteed to win against any lone Skulk or Lerk - hell he is gauranteed to win, in classic. An Onos on the other hand, is a 1 time investment that spans over 1 player only, and lets keep the individual ressource system in mind - which makes him the equivalent of costing 750 marine res in a 10v10, or just 450 in a 6v6. A fade clocks in at 500 and 300 res, respectively.
Its pretty much true that an Onos is a fairly specilialized utility (can swallow lone HAs or take out structures), and is extremely weak at anything else for his price (like, survival. or smashing light armors in a reasonable amount of time. or mobility.). Aliens right here and now are underpowered and in dire need of various forms of help - the Onos is just another symptom of this.
The onos' job is to get the skulks to the marines. Consider him an armored personel carrier. He takes the bullets so the swarm of soft and squishy by highly damaging skulks can get into the fray. Even if the onos dies without causing a single point of damage, he can still earn his team a victory.
And umbra. It more than doubles the longevity of an onos (about half damage from bullets + extra regen time). Use it. I'm pretty sure primal scream also has some effect on lifespan, but I don't remember the specifics.
Not exactly what I'd call a troop carrier. If an onos and a skulk are rushing me, I'm going to shoot the skulk every time, because I know I can kill him, whereas I'll probably just dent the onos. And the onos only does 10 (15?) more points of damage per attack than the skulk, so I've nearly halved the damage dealing ability of the pair by killing the weaker one first. Unless you want to give an onos the ability to devour five skulks and then run into MS and purge, you don't really have any sort of troop carrier.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Jun 7 2004, 01:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Jun 7 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 46.4% vs 53.6% - all within +/- 50%, in other words a very balanced overall outcome. You'd think - but <b>these games include bad commanders or small games before the time is up and a switch to co performed</b>. In fact, theres <i>110 games</i> in those stats that lasted under 10 minutes - on a pub, only a tiny amount of the games finish in under 10 minutes in the marines favor (meaning, the absolute teamstacked rapefests). So we can safely guess that a significant number of those games basicly defaulted to aliens because the marine team lacked a reasonable commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the aliens have Onos's it scares the **** outta commanders knowing that this sucka will just maul marine teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it doesn't. He has so many powerful counters to an Onos, its not funny - HMGs, structure blocking, catpacks and jetpacks just to name the most popular ones. The most powerful lifeform the Aliens can field nowadays is the freakin' Lerk, because he has the largest ability to impact the marine earlygame. That in itself is just sad proof of how ineffective most other lifeforms are. Fades, while reasonably strong, both appear 4 minutes into the game and can be limited by terrain heavily depending on the map. Onoses appear 8 minutes into the game, and are extremely limited in their appliance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a marine was loosing a game and he was Heavy Armor and he got killed by a skulk or a lerk (it HAS happened before) then why dont I see them coming up and saying "OMG HA IS TOO WEAK GIVE IT LIKE 2 MILLION ARMOR!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HA costs 15 res, his weapon is re-useable, marine upgrades remain and he's almost gauranteed to win against any lone Skulk or Lerk - hell he is gauranteed to win, in classic. An Onos on the other hand, is a 1 time investment that spans over 1 player only, and lets keep the individual ressource system in mind - which makes him the equivalent of costing 750 marine res in a 10v10, or just 450 in a 6v6. A fade clocks in at 500 and 300 res, respectively.
Its pretty much true that an Onos is a fairly specilialized utility (can swallow lone HAs or take out structures), and is extremely weak at anything else for his price (like, survival. or smashing light armors in a reasonable amount of time. or mobility.). Aliens right here and now are underpowered and in dire need of various forms of help - the Onos is just another symptom of this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would you know they were bad commanders? How do you know the aliens werent just good? You dont, and therefor we just look at the statistics and realise the aliens won more games then the marines. End of story. Especially since only 44 of those games were under 10 minutes, and aliens won more under 10 minute games!
It's a pub that those stats were pulled from. In fact, it's one of the OldF (my clan) pubs. And just like any pub you get rounds where no one wants to comm. Or where someone with no clue jumps in the CC and does nothing until he's ejected. Or where someone jumps in, drops an IP, armory, tfac, and a ton of turrets and then jumps out and says 'who wants to comm?' All these things are death for marines. So stasticially speaking, he's quite right in saying that these statistics are going to be skewed by bad commanders, and by very small games. Say 4 vs. 4, which aliens are almost guaranteed to win. Or even worse, a game that starts out at small numbers and then grows to huge numbers. Marines get a very slow start, and then have no res to finish the end game. Aliens cap tons of RTs and then lame up half the map. Or what if one team is half made up of people who have no idea how to play the game? Most of the round is spent teaching them. What about griefers who are just there to ruin the game for people? What about people getting bored and F4ing before the game is over? There are dozens of possible intervening factors. The statistics get totally skewed. Pub statistics are hard to trust for these very reasons. There's no good controls on the source of the stats.
Maybe if someone could talk the people who run the NSPug servers into collecting stats like these, we might find some much more interesting (and trustable) results. Lots of games get played, but they are at least semi-organized, and they are comprised of even teams made up of people who know how the game works and are there for a good, full game.
Do you people ever find how fast jp with hmg rape Onos...i do find it fast and how fast a horde of fade and lerk rape a marine spawn which have rines with big gunz..strange.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skyrage+Jun 7 2004, 06:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Jun 7 2004, 06:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Norml, onos shouldn't be hit and run units...and that's the only tactic that they can use to become true "uber-killers" run in, kill and/or devour a couple of marines then retreat after 5 seconds...
That's just such a wrong image of what an Onos truly should be...
In 1.04, they were devestating..it took ages to gun one of those things down, and yes, in 1.04 marines actually feared them more than anything else...
And that's how I at least would like to see them...like they were in 1.04...nearly incivible and feared...that to me would be an onos and not some puppy dog... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sigh, why does everyone think the onos should be able to take on full technology marines with no trouble whatsoever?
A full upgrade HMG/HA vs a 3 Hive onos will never win. But when you get more than one HA vs one Onos, the marines should ALWAYS have the upper hand. A 2 hive onos vs 6 light armor marines even with nothing but LMG, should be at a disadvantage regardless of what the onos should be like.
In 1.04 onos owned even heavy armor. Onos = gg marines. However, now that an onos isn't tied to a third hive, and basically then end game for marines, it shouldn't be the same thing it was in 1.04.
Basically, what im trying to say is, fully upgraded HA is the best marines can have, fully upgraded onos is the best aliens can have(strength, healthwise;not opinions). HA cannot operate solo at a point in the game where HA is needed(many higher lifeforms about), as HA is nothing but a light marine with more armor, they need teamwork to be fully effective. Onos on the otherhand can operate by themselves, due to regeneration and stomp, the problem is they can only be used efficiently alone with hit and run tactics. Throw in other lifeforms working together with onos and it IS the killing maching everyone wants it to be. Umbra cuts incoming damage in half, skulks can quickly disperse stomped marines, gorges can heal(though not really necessary), and fades can help kill marines busy with the onos.
Niether are as effective by themselves as they are with teamwork.
When it comes down to it, the onos SHOULD NOT, be the way you people are envisioning it. It's no longer the game breaker that it was in 1.04, because it can show up at virtually any time of the game. The onos is already highly effective at EVERY point of marine technology, it shouldnt take your entire team to have a chance of killing an onos.
Ive previously suggested giving the fade's meta to the onos, to make it more tanky. It makes no sense that the fade can heal on the go while the onos, the one who absorbs bullets, cannot.
Normal E. High: what do you feel about hive 3 onos in 3.0? That clearly should be a game breaker, right?
Norml: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A full upgrade HMG/HA vs a 3 Hive onos will never win. But when you get more than one HA vs one Onos, the marines should ALWAYS have the upper hand. A 2 hive onos vs 6 light armor marines even with nothing but LMG, should be at a disadvantage regardless of what the onos should be like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you understand that an HA will almost never be alone unless the rest of his team is picked off or the team is completely newb? If we assume for the sake of argument that HAs will be in a group with almost their entire team 100% of the time(which is basically true), then is it your belief that Onoses should be powerless to stop them 100% of the time? They shouldn't win by themselves, but all of the alien support abilities(Umbra, Primal Scream, Web) have been seriously nerfed and at this point there isn't a lot the alien team can do to help out their pathetically vulnerable Onoses. If an Onos is stupid enough to, *gasp*, attack the HAs in any way besides hiding around a corner and stomp/devouring, he's torn apart literally in seconds by HMGs. An Onos is absolutely terrified of even entering the same room as a couple of HMGs; in what way are they the aliens' tank species? When Fades are more capable of hit-and-running heavy weapons than Onoses, what good is the ultimate alien evolution?
Umm yeah, just few days ago i was ramboing around as a la/sg and this onos comes, it stomps and tryes to devour me, misses me, i jump around him while he keeps stomping and trying to devour me. Well, he didnt get me, but i got him.
Onos is not a tank, you cant just evolve into it and think that you can do whatever you want without dieing. When counting a somewhat equal enviroment Onos should always have a healing gorg/es or a umbraing lerk/'s with it. Always.
The Onos is a niche class. It's made for swallowing heavies (in itself, a very hard task) and destroying buildings. With stomp, if you have a retinue of skulks, it becomes support.
The Onos is a support class. It's not a tank.
We already have a support class. The Onos completely breaks away from the other life forms, it's too big and clumsy to be hit and run. Why not eliminate it and replace it with another life form?
<!--QuoteBegin-Recoup+Jun 7 2004, 02:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Recoup @ Jun 7 2004, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How would you know they were bad commanders? How do you know the aliens werent just good? You dont, and therefor we just look at the statistics and realise the aliens won more games then the marines. End of story. Especially since only 44 of those games were under 10 minutes, and aliens won more under 10 minute games! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, I've been talking about the biggest dataset provided for ns_classic in that post. I'm not sure which set you're talking about, as he provides about four - but I assumed it would be common sense to take the largest set for reliability.
And in that set, 110 games ended under 10 minutes, or roughly 25% of all games.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ots+Jun 8 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ots @ Jun 8 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Umm yeah, just few days ago i was ramboing around as a la/sg and this onos comes, it stomps and tryes to devour me, misses me, i jump around him while he keeps stomping and trying to devour me. Well, he didnt get me, but i got him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what we call a "Bad onos" my friend- it should have started and ended with "Onos stomps me- onos devours me" or maybe, "onos stomps me, onos gores me" or even "onos gores me and I die" not "Onos was an idiot"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We already have a support class. The Onos completely breaks away from the other life forms, it's too big and clumsy to be hit and run. Why not eliminate it and replace it with another life form?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know what you mean; made a topic out of it a little while ago. IIRC, the title was "Expensive Classes -Why Keep 'em?" and it got quite a pile of replies together with BattleTech's one (linked topics). Couldn't find it, though... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Norml: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A full upgrade HMG/HA vs a 3 Hive onos will never win. But when you get more than one HA vs one Onos, the marines should ALWAYS have the upper hand. A 2 hive onos vs 6 light armor marines even with nothing but LMG, should be at a disadvantage regardless of what the onos should be like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you understand that an HA will almost never be alone unless the rest of his team is picked off or the team is completely newb? If we assume for the sake of argument that HAs will be in a group with almost their entire team 100% of the time(which is basically true), then is it your belief that Onoses should be powerless to stop them 100% of the time? They shouldn't win by themselves, but all of the alien support abilities(Umbra, Primal Scream, Web) have been seriously nerfed and at this point there isn't a lot the alien team can do to help out their pathetically vulnerable Onoses. If an Onos is stupid enough to, *gasp*, attack the HAs in any way besides hiding around a corner and stomp/devouring, he's torn apart literally in seconds by HMGs. An Onos is absolutely terrified of even entering the same room as a couple of HMGs; in what way are they the aliens' tank species? When Fades are more capable of hit-and-running heavy weapons than Onoses, what good is the ultimate alien evolution? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, did you even read my post? I wasn't saying HA will be running around by themselves and therefore going to get owned, im saying the HA can't and the Onos can.
HA = Top tier marine tech.
ONOS = Top tier Alien tech.
One HA vs one Onos = dead HA EVERY TIME.
6 HA vs One onos should mean the onos is at a serious disadvantage. Obviously the onos COULD still win, just like the lone HA COULD win. The chances of that happening are slim to none however.
Turn that back around.
Lets say one HA is like an onos now, and onos are like girly HA that need to stick together. Should 6 onos be able to easily kill the HA? Yes.
Umbraed Monkey: I do think charge needs to be boosted, but other than that I think the onos is fine.
Everyone is looking at the onos like its still 1.04. The onos is NOT chained to the third hive, and shouldn't be the badass kill entire heavy trains on one charge pass like it was in 1.04.
In 1.04 the third hive was much better than full upgraded marines, and therefore was viable to have the onos the way it was. Now, third hive and full tech marines are much closer together, though I still say 3 hive aliens are stronger IMO, it can still be an even battle if both teams have resources to wage war at the highest level of technology.
An onos SHOULD get hurt by a lvl 3 HMG. Its the marines best weapon. If you have more than one HMG you should get DECIMATED. This isn't about what cost more and this should be better because it costs more blah blah.
From what im reading it sounds like everyone wants the onos to be able to stand in front of HA HMG marines and never die, never have to do any work, never have to work with their team... omg why play games, let the computer play for you!
If you couldnt go onos 5 minutes into the game, I would agree with you all. But you can. So I dont.
<!--QuoteBegin-Norml E. High+Jun 8 2004, 03:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Norml E. High @ Jun 8 2004, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, did you even read my post? I wasn't saying HA will be running around by themselves and therefore going to get owned, im saying the HA can't and the Onos can.
HA = Top tier marine tech.
ONOS = Top tier Alien tech.
One HA vs one Onos = dead HA EVERY TIME.
6 HA vs One onos should mean the onos is at a serious disadvantage. Obviously the onos COULD still win, just like the lone HA COULD win. The chances of that happening are slim to none however.
Turn that back around.
Lets say one HA is like an onos now, and onos are like girly HA that need to stick together. Should 6 onos be able to easily kill the HA? Yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, okay, but I'm not seeing any sort of valid argument for why Onoses aren't too weak here. You say that an Onos can kill an HA one on one, which of course is true but ultimately a meaningless point because that situation rarely occurs. Then you say that Onoses should not stand a chance against a group of competent HAs. The problem is that "In a group" is pretty much the only variety that non-suicidal HAs come in. It's like saying skulks are overpowered because they're stronger than a marine who threw both his guns down a pit. Arguments that don't bear relevance to what usually happens in a real game may technically be true, but they're pointless.
You can't just apply the word "Top Tier" to both HAs and Onos and then conclude that they should be equal. Are you implying that aliens should need equal numbers of Onoses to beat out a group of HAs? I'm sure I don't need to explain why that's impossible. What, then, do you propose an Onos(the ultimate alien life form, in theory) should be able to do against a team of HAs? Something has to be able to stop them and Onoses sure aren't filling that role right now. Onoses are the heavy duty species of the alien team and yet they have to run away with their figurative tails between their legs when they're faced with the marine equivalent. Fades can afford to be more aggressive than Onoses can by a long shot, and that just doesn't make sense with the role Onoses are supposed to be filling.
You, as well as most others who hold that side of the argument it seems, are suffering from an inability to discern a difference between "Decimate the marine team single-handedly" and "Get raped by 2 HMGs". Onoses have to be somewhere inbetween.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hive Three Carapace Onos vs Level Three HMG: 114 bullet's to kill. Hive Three No Carapace Onos vs Level Three HMG: 97 bullet's to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crap, no wonder onos die so easily -_- So even under umbra, 2 HMG's firing their full clips will kill an onos.
I mean, onos shouldn't be able to take on large groups of marines alone...but 1 HMG clip killing a 3 hive carapace onos? That's a tad excessive. Meh I dunno, an onos used properly will soak up a lot of damage and allow his teammates to do most of the killing without getting shot to hell. 114 bullets to kill a carapace onos is crazy though =\
Im saying more than one of either teams best should beat one of the other teams. Obivously this doesnt apply to onos because one onos with stomp can kick HA ****. I'm not throwing in things that dont happen in games. Don't know where you are getting that from. One onos runs into heavy trains CONSTANTLY. No, the onos can't kill them all without running away. At most he can barely escape with his life with one HA in his belly. And the fact is, he SHOULDNT be able to kill all marines just because he is an onos. Just like HA shouldnt be invincible.
Ok, forget heavy armor. All that matters is what guns marines are carrying. A group of lvl 3 HMG marines should be able to easily kill you with all of them focus firing on your.
"You can't just apply the word "Top Tier" to both HAs and Onos and then conclude that they should be equal."
Once again, completly missing the point. Both HA and Onos are the best things the teams have. That doesnt say "Durr they are equal!". The only way they are equal is that it's the strongest things the teams have. Does this mean they should both be equal? No. Does this mean more of one than the other should kick the crap out of them? Yes. This doesnt apply much to onos because they are just as good as several HA. But the fact remains, being that a group of HA HMG marines is pretty much as good as marines can get, they should always have the upper hand against an onos. I don't see why this is so hard for you people to get.
"What, then, do you propose an Onos(the ultimate alien life form, in theory) should be able to do against a team of HAs? "
Gee I dunno, what should the one ultimate alien life form, against multiple ultimate marine lifeforms be able to do? Oh thats tough.
A group of HA, is the marines working together. Why should the onos just decimate them with no teamwork whatsoever?
" Something has to be able to stop them and Onoses sure aren't filling that role right now. "
Actually onos can do a pretty good job by themselves. Throw in that magical word "teamwork" and aliens have just as good a chance as the marines.
"Onoses are the heavy duty species of the alien team and yet they have to run away with their figurative tails between their legs when they're faced with the marine equivalent. "
Uhh, last time I checked an Onos was nowhere near equivalent to a team of HA, and IMO, should NEVER be. Heavy trains dont have to run away because they are working together. Ofcourse everyone will say "One onos and one lerk with umbra can't own a team of HA!" Yes, but once agian, more marines > less aliens. The onos dies quickly because he's attacking alone, and thus the only target for marines to unload into. With skulks fades and lerks working with you, the marines break formation, shoot other aliens, and not just you. Obviously they can still focus fire on just you, however, there are now fades and skulks killing them while they try to kill you. They might get you, but the other members of your TEAM probably will kill alot of them too. Hell, even one onos stomping and skulks eating the HA can kill a whole heavy train, the commander is usually forced to beacon and cut his losses.
"You, as well as most others who hold that side of the argument it seems, are suffering from an inability to discern a difference between "Decimate the marine team single-handedly" and "Get raped by 2 HMGs". Onoses have to be somewhere inbetween. "
Well uhh, you who hold the other side of the argument completely dismiss the marines. HMGs are the best weapons marines have (damage wise, not opinion). Onos SHOULD have to worry about dying. When you run into a room with two HMGS getting ready to open up on you, you have to make a decision whether to attempt fighting two of the marines best weapons, or run away to fight another day. Because its not even really HA trains. HA trains are so powerful because of the weapons they carry.
All of you want the Onos to always beat the crap out of the marines, and yet they completely dismiss the marines altogether. This is not 1.04. Onos are much more common now than 1.04, and should not be such killing machines that they were.
What I'm saying is, in a nutshell, that you are oversimplifying the game with this "More > Less" argument. Balance for this game never has been and never will be that simple. I understand that the HMG is the marine top tech and the Onos is the alien top tech. What you need to understand is that these two techs are acquired in very different fashions, and one is definitely more valuable than the other.
You have to take into account the res differences. Marines get all their res in a central pool and can spend it as they like. Alien res is divided more or less evenly. The individual res for one alien to evolve to a higher life form comes in MUCH slower than the res for the commander to drop weapons. Thus you might say that alien res, on a per unit basis, is more valuable than marine res. Not only does an Onos cost about twice res as an HA/HMG, but it takes significantly longer to earn that same amount of res.
You also have to take into accout the difference in the basic structure of the team. For marines, the commander handles all the tech and structures and marines just have to build it. Marines can build even when they have the top tier weaponry for their team. Aliens have to sacrifice players to drop all the structures to support their team; this is a full time job even if it does change hands once in a while. Aliens almost always have a gorge or two, and on top of that there are often players who can't evolve above skulk because they're saving res to go gorge later, or because they just spent everything on structures. In other words, <i>aliens only ever have a fraction of the top tier units that marines can have</i>.
Aliens have no choice but to fight against marines who can outnumber them. When it comes to top tech units, a small number of aliens has to be balanced to handle a larger number of marines because the primary alien fighting force only consists of a handful of players. All of these things are precisely why the argument that marines should always win when they have the numbers advantage is invalid. Even if we consider late game skulks to be feasible competition to top tier marine units(here's a hint: they aren't), aliens are still usually forced to get by with less units. It's crucial that we take that into account when we talk about the power of the higher life forms.
Sigh, I knew it would come back to how much res an onos costs vs HA. I gives up.
Instead, why don't you just tell us exactly how the onos should be in relation to the marines. I want to know what you think should happen when an onos comes up against a heavy train.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 7 2004, 02:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 7 2004, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe if someone could talk the people who run the NSPug servers into collecting stats like these, we might find some much more interesting (and trustable) results. Lots of games get played, but they are at least semi-organized, and they are comprised of even teams made up of people who know how the game works and are there for a good, full game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, great idea. NSPug stats would be a great help.
Except the BUS will give us all the statistics we need. OOPS did I say something I wasn't supposed to!? ... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Xyrcai+Jun 8 2004, 06:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xyrcai @ Jun 8 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've never seen an onos train. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Onos trains are great but incredibly rare. Aliens basically need to have the game won already, marines have to stay in game rather than f4 outta boredom, and your team has to have enough coordination to not kill the marines until everyone has gone onos <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm going to see if I can pull record from several servers I visit that are very good servers with experienced players. In fact, on Lerky Jerky we got raped by Aliens 3 games straight... and the comms and marines were good comms that I knew from experience... cept for that one guy Devil, who sucked... but that was only one game...
Comments
As has been said hundreds of times already... Marines closing in on one hive aliens = gg in about one minute. Aliens closing in on marines pushed back into MS = gg in anywhere from 10 - 20 minutes... ugh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the aliens have Onos's it scares the **** outta commanders knowing that this sucka will just maul marine teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it doesn't. He has so many powerful counters to an Onos, its not funny - HMGs, structure blocking, catpacks and jetpacks just to name the most popular ones. The most powerful lifeform the Aliens can field nowadays is the freakin' Lerk, because he has the largest ability to impact the marine earlygame. That in itself is just sad proof of how ineffective most other lifeforms are. Fades, while reasonably strong, both appear 4 minutes into the game and can be limited by terrain heavily depending on the map. Onoses appear 8 minutes into the game, and are extremely limited in their appliance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a marine was loosing a game and he was Heavy Armor and he got killed by a skulk or a lerk (it HAS happened before) then why dont I see them coming up and saying "OMG HA IS TOO WEAK GIVE IT LIKE 2 MILLION ARMOR!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HA costs 15 res, his weapon is re-useable, marine upgrades remain and he's almost gauranteed to win against any lone Skulk or Lerk - hell he is gauranteed to win, in classic. An Onos on the other hand, is a 1 time investment that spans over 1 player only, and lets keep the individual ressource system in mind - which makes him the equivalent of costing 750 marine res in a 10v10, or just 450 in a 6v6. A fade clocks in at 500 and 300 res, respectively.
Its pretty much true that an Onos is a fairly specilialized utility (can swallow lone HAs or take out structures), and is extremely weak at anything else for his price (like, survival. or smashing light armors in a reasonable amount of time. or mobility.). Aliens right here and now are underpowered and in dire need of various forms of help - the Onos is just another symptom of this.
And umbra. It more than doubles the longevity of an onos (about half damage from bullets + extra regen time). Use it. I'm pretty sure primal scream also has some effect on lifespan, but I don't remember the specifics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the aliens have Onos's it scares the **** outta commanders knowing that this sucka will just maul marine teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it doesn't. He has so many powerful counters to an Onos, its not funny - HMGs, structure blocking, catpacks and jetpacks just to name the most popular ones. The most powerful lifeform the Aliens can field nowadays is the freakin' Lerk, because he has the largest ability to impact the marine earlygame. That in itself is just sad proof of how ineffective most other lifeforms are. Fades, while reasonably strong, both appear 4 minutes into the game and can be limited by terrain heavily depending on the map. Onoses appear 8 minutes into the game, and are extremely limited in their appliance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a marine was loosing a game and he was Heavy Armor and he got killed by a skulk or a lerk (it HAS happened before) then why dont I see them coming up and saying "OMG HA IS TOO WEAK GIVE IT LIKE 2 MILLION ARMOR!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HA costs 15 res, his weapon is re-useable, marine upgrades remain and he's almost gauranteed to win against any lone Skulk or Lerk - hell he is gauranteed to win, in classic. An Onos on the other hand, is a 1 time investment that spans over 1 player only, and lets keep the individual ressource system in mind - which makes him the equivalent of costing 750 marine res in a 10v10, or just 450 in a 6v6. A fade clocks in at 500 and 300 res, respectively.
Its pretty much true that an Onos is a fairly specilialized utility (can swallow lone HAs or take out structures), and is extremely weak at anything else for his price (like, survival. or smashing light armors in a reasonable amount of time. or mobility.). Aliens right here and now are underpowered and in dire need of various forms of help - the Onos is just another symptom of this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would you know they were bad commanders? How do you know the aliens werent just good? You dont, and therefor we just look at the statistics and realise the aliens won more games then the marines. End of story. Especially since only 44 of those games were under 10 minutes, and aliens won more under 10 minute games!
Maybe if someone could talk the people who run the NSPug servers into collecting stats like these, we might find some much more interesting (and trustable) results. Lots of games get played, but they are at least semi-organized, and they are comprised of even teams made up of people who know how the game works and are there for a good, full game.
That's just such a wrong image of what an Onos truly should be...
In 1.04, they were devestating..it took ages to gun one of those things down, and yes, in 1.04 marines actually feared them more than anything else...
And that's how I at least would like to see them...like they were in 1.04...nearly incivible and feared...that to me would be an onos and not some puppy dog... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh, why does everyone think the onos should be able to take on full technology marines with no trouble whatsoever?
A full upgrade HMG/HA vs a 3 Hive onos will never win. But when you get more than one HA vs one Onos, the marines should ALWAYS have the upper hand. A 2 hive onos vs 6 light armor marines even with nothing but LMG, should be at a disadvantage regardless of what the onos should be like.
In 1.04 onos owned even heavy armor. Onos = gg marines. However, now that an onos isn't tied to a third hive, and basically then end game for marines, it shouldn't be the same thing it was in 1.04.
Basically, what im trying to say is, fully upgraded HA is the best marines can have, fully upgraded onos is the best aliens can have(strength, healthwise;not opinions). HA cannot operate solo at a point in the game where HA is needed(many higher lifeforms about), as HA is nothing but a light marine with more armor, they need teamwork to be fully effective. Onos on the otherhand can operate by themselves, due to regeneration and stomp, the problem is they can only be used efficiently alone with hit and run tactics. Throw in other lifeforms working together with onos and it IS the killing maching everyone wants it to be. Umbra cuts incoming damage in half, skulks can quickly disperse stomped marines, gorges can heal(though not really necessary), and fades can help kill marines busy with the onos.
Niether are as effective by themselves as they are with teamwork.
When it comes down to it, the onos SHOULD NOT, be the way you people are envisioning it. It's no longer the game breaker that it was in 1.04, because it can show up at virtually any time of the game. The onos is already highly effective at EVERY point of marine technology, it shouldnt take your entire team to have a chance of killing an onos.
<img src='http://users.accesscomm.ca/adam_marchand/images/fixed.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Normal E. High: what do you feel about hive 3 onos in 3.0? That clearly should be a game breaker, right?
Norml:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A full upgrade HMG/HA vs a 3 Hive onos will never win. But when you get more than one HA vs one Onos, the marines should ALWAYS have the upper hand. A 2 hive onos vs 6 light armor marines even with nothing but LMG, should be at a disadvantage regardless of what the onos should be like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you understand that an HA will almost never be alone unless the rest of his team is picked off or the team is completely newb? If we assume for the sake of argument that HAs will be in a group with almost their entire team 100% of the time(which is basically true), then is it your belief that Onoses should be powerless to stop them 100% of the time? They shouldn't win by themselves, but all of the alien support abilities(Umbra, Primal Scream, Web) have been seriously nerfed and at this point there isn't a lot the alien team can do to help out their pathetically vulnerable Onoses. If an Onos is stupid enough to, *gasp*, attack the HAs in any way besides hiding around a corner and stomp/devouring, he's torn apart literally in seconds by HMGs. An Onos is absolutely terrified of even entering the same room as a couple of HMGs; in what way are they the aliens' tank species? When Fades are more capable of hit-and-running heavy weapons than Onoses, what good is the ultimate alien evolution?
Onos is not a tank, you cant just evolve into it and think that you can do whatever you want without dieing. When counting a somewhat equal enviroment Onos should always have a healing gorg/es or a umbraing lerk/'s with it. Always.
The Onos is a support class. It's not a tank.
We already have a support class. The Onos completely breaks away from the other life forms, it's too big and clumsy to be hit and run. Why not eliminate it and replace it with another life form?
Uh, I've been talking about the biggest dataset provided for ns_classic in that post. I'm not sure which set you're talking about, as he provides about four - but I assumed it would be common sense to take the largest set for reliability.
And in that set, 110 games ended under 10 minutes, or roughly 25% of all games.
That's what we call a "Bad onos" my friend- it should have started and ended with "Onos stomps me- onos devours me" or maybe, "onos stomps me, onos gores me" or even "onos gores me and I die" not "Onos was an idiot"
I know what you mean; made a topic out of it a little while ago. IIRC, the title was "Expensive Classes -Why Keep 'em?" and it got quite a pile of replies together with BattleTech's one (linked topics). Couldn't find it, though... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Norml:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A full upgrade HMG/HA vs a 3 Hive onos will never win. But when you get more than one HA vs one Onos, the marines should ALWAYS have the upper hand. A 2 hive onos vs 6 light armor marines even with nothing but LMG, should be at a disadvantage regardless of what the onos should be like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you understand that an HA will almost never be alone unless the rest of his team is picked off or the team is completely newb? If we assume for the sake of argument that HAs will be in a group with almost their entire team 100% of the time(which is basically true), then is it your belief that Onoses should be powerless to stop them 100% of the time? They shouldn't win by themselves, but all of the alien support abilities(Umbra, Primal Scream, Web) have been seriously nerfed and at this point there isn't a lot the alien team can do to help out their pathetically vulnerable Onoses. If an Onos is stupid enough to, *gasp*, attack the HAs in any way besides hiding around a corner and stomp/devouring, he's torn apart literally in seconds by HMGs. An Onos is absolutely terrified of even entering the same room as a couple of HMGs; in what way are they the aliens' tank species? When Fades are more capable of hit-and-running heavy weapons than Onoses, what good is the ultimate alien evolution? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, did you even read my post? I wasn't saying HA will be running around by themselves and therefore going to get owned, im saying the HA can't and the Onos can.
HA = Top tier marine tech.
ONOS = Top tier Alien tech.
One HA vs one Onos = dead HA EVERY TIME.
6 HA vs One onos should mean the onos is at a serious disadvantage. Obviously the onos COULD still win, just like the lone HA COULD win. The chances of that happening are slim to none however.
Turn that back around.
Lets say one HA is like an onos now, and onos are like girly HA that need to stick together. Should 6 onos be able to easily kill the HA? Yes.
Umbraed Monkey:
I do think charge needs to be boosted, but other than that I think the onos is fine.
Everyone is looking at the onos like its still 1.04. The onos is NOT chained to the third hive, and shouldn't be the badass kill entire heavy trains on one charge pass like it was in 1.04.
In 1.04 the third hive was much better than full upgraded marines, and therefore was viable to have the onos the way it was. Now, third hive and full tech marines are much closer together, though I still say 3 hive aliens are stronger IMO, it can still be an even battle if both teams have resources to wage war at the highest level of technology.
An onos SHOULD get hurt by a lvl 3 HMG. Its the marines best weapon. If you have more than one HMG you should get DECIMATED. This isn't about what cost more and this should be better because it costs more blah blah.
From what im reading it sounds like everyone wants the onos to be able to stand in front of HA HMG marines and never die, never have to do any work, never have to work with their team... omg why play games, let the computer play for you!
If you couldnt go onos 5 minutes into the game, I would agree with you all. But you can. So I dont.
What it is now..
<b>Hive Three Carapace Onos vs Level Three HMG:</b> 114 bullet's to kill.
<b>Hive Three No Carapace Onos vs Level Three HMG:</b> 97 bullet's to kill.
Level 3 HMG: 26 dmg
What could help..
<b>Hive Three Carapace Onos vs Level Three HMG:</b> 227 bullet's to kill.
<b>Hive Three No Carapace Onos vs Level Three HMG:</b> 193 bullet's to kill.
Lvl 3 HMG: 13 dmg
<a href='http://nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>http://nonoobs.com/damage.php</a>
HA = Top tier marine tech.
ONOS = Top tier Alien tech.
One HA vs one Onos = dead HA EVERY TIME.
6 HA vs One onos should mean the onos is at a serious disadvantage. Obviously the onos COULD still win, just like the lone HA COULD win. The chances of that happening are slim to none however.
Turn that back around.
Lets say one HA is like an onos now, and onos are like girly HA that need to stick together. Should 6 onos be able to easily kill the HA? Yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, okay, but I'm not seeing any sort of valid argument for why Onoses aren't too weak here. You say that an Onos can kill an HA one on one, which of course is true but ultimately a meaningless point because that situation rarely occurs. Then you say that Onoses should not stand a chance against a group of competent HAs. The problem is that "In a group" is pretty much the only variety that non-suicidal HAs come in. It's like saying skulks are overpowered because they're stronger than a marine who threw both his guns down a pit. Arguments that don't bear relevance to what usually happens in a real game may technically be true, but they're pointless.
You can't just apply the word "Top Tier" to both HAs and Onos and then conclude that they should be equal. Are you implying that aliens should need equal numbers of Onoses to beat out a group of HAs? I'm sure I don't need to explain why that's impossible. What, then, do you propose an Onos(the ultimate alien life form, in theory) should be able to do against a team of HAs? Something has to be able to stop them and Onoses sure aren't filling that role right now. Onoses are the heavy duty species of the alien team and yet they have to run away with their figurative tails between their legs when they're faced with the marine equivalent. Fades can afford to be more aggressive than Onoses can by a long shot, and that just doesn't make sense with the role Onoses are supposed to be filling.
You, as well as most others who hold that side of the argument it seems, are suffering from an inability to discern a difference between "Decimate the marine team single-handedly" and "Get raped by 2 HMGs". Onoses have to be somewhere inbetween.
Hive Three No Carapace Onos vs Level Three HMG: 97 bullet's to kill.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crap, no wonder onos die so easily -_-
So even under umbra, 2 HMG's firing their full clips will kill an onos.
I mean, onos shouldn't be able to take on large groups of marines alone...but 1 HMG clip killing a 3 hive carapace onos? That's a tad excessive. Meh I dunno, an onos used properly will soak up a lot of damage and allow his teammates to do most of the killing without getting shot to hell. 114 bullets to kill a carapace onos is crazy though =\
Im saying more than one of either teams best should beat one of the other teams. Obivously this doesnt apply to onos because one onos with stomp can kick HA ****. I'm not throwing in things that dont happen in games. Don't know where you are getting that from. One onos runs into heavy trains CONSTANTLY. No, the onos can't kill them all without running away. At most he can barely escape with his life with one HA in his belly. And the fact is, he SHOULDNT be able to kill all marines just because he is an onos. Just like HA shouldnt be invincible.
Ok, forget heavy armor. All that matters is what guns marines are carrying. A group of lvl 3 HMG marines should be able to easily kill you with all of them focus firing on your.
"You can't just apply the word "Top Tier" to both HAs and Onos and then conclude that they should be equal."
Once again, completly missing the point. Both HA and Onos are the best things the teams have. That doesnt say "Durr they are equal!". The only way they are equal is that it's the strongest things the teams have. Does this mean they should both be equal? No. Does this mean more of one than the other should kick the crap out of them? Yes. This doesnt apply much to onos because they are just as good as several HA. But the fact remains, being that a group of HA HMG marines is pretty much as good as marines can get, they should always have the upper hand against an onos. I don't see why this is so hard for you people to get.
"What, then, do you propose an Onos(the ultimate alien life form, in theory) should be able to do against a team of HAs? "
Gee I dunno, what should the one ultimate alien life form, against multiple ultimate marine lifeforms be able to do? Oh thats tough.
A group of HA, is the marines working together. Why should the onos just decimate them with no teamwork whatsoever?
" Something has to be able to stop them and Onoses sure aren't filling that role right now. "
Actually onos can do a pretty good job by themselves. Throw in that magical word "teamwork" and aliens have just as good a chance as the marines.
"Onoses are the heavy duty species of the alien team and yet they have to run away with their figurative tails between their legs when they're faced with the marine equivalent. "
Uhh, last time I checked an Onos was nowhere near equivalent to a team of HA, and IMO, should NEVER be. Heavy trains dont have to run away because they are working together. Ofcourse everyone will say "One onos and one lerk with umbra can't own a team of HA!" Yes, but once agian, more marines > less aliens. The onos dies quickly because he's attacking alone, and thus the only target for marines to unload into. With skulks fades and lerks working with you, the marines break formation, shoot other aliens, and not just you. Obviously they can still focus fire on just you, however, there are now fades and skulks killing them while they try to kill you. They might get you, but the other members of your TEAM probably will kill alot of them too. Hell, even one onos stomping and skulks eating the HA can kill a whole heavy train, the commander is usually forced to beacon and cut his losses.
"You, as well as most others who hold that side of the argument it seems, are suffering from an inability to discern a difference between "Decimate the marine team single-handedly" and "Get raped by 2 HMGs". Onoses have to be somewhere inbetween. "
Well uhh, you who hold the other side of the argument completely dismiss the marines. HMGs are the best weapons marines have (damage wise, not opinion). Onos SHOULD have to worry about dying. When you run into a room with two HMGS getting ready to open up on you, you have to make a decision whether to attempt fighting two of the marines best weapons, or run away to fight another day. Because its not even really HA trains. HA trains are so powerful because of the weapons they carry.
All of you want the Onos to always beat the crap out of the marines, and yet they completely dismiss the marines altogether. This is not 1.04. Onos are much more common now than 1.04, and should not be such killing machines that they were.
Where as HMG/HA trains are VERY common.. I've never seen an onos train.
You have to take into account the res differences. Marines get all their res in a central pool and can spend it as they like. Alien res is divided more or less evenly. The individual res for one alien to evolve to a higher life form comes in MUCH slower than the res for the commander to drop weapons. Thus you might say that alien res, on a per unit basis, is more valuable than marine res. Not only does an Onos cost about twice res as an HA/HMG, but it takes significantly longer to earn that same amount of res.
You also have to take into accout the difference in the basic structure of the team. For marines, the commander handles all the tech and structures and marines just have to build it. Marines can build even when they have the top tier weaponry for their team. Aliens have to sacrifice players to drop all the structures to support their team; this is a full time job even if it does change hands once in a while. Aliens almost always have a gorge or two, and on top of that there are often players who can't evolve above skulk because they're saving res to go gorge later, or because they just spent everything on structures. In other words, <i>aliens only ever have a fraction of the top tier units that marines can have</i>.
Aliens have no choice but to fight against marines who can outnumber them. When it comes to top tech units, a small number of aliens has to be balanced to handle a larger number of marines because the primary alien fighting force only consists of a handful of players. All of these things are precisely why the argument that marines should always win when they have the numbers advantage is invalid. Even if we consider late game skulks to be feasible competition to top tier marine units(here's a hint: they aren't), aliens are still usually forced to get by with less units. It's crucial that we take that into account when we talk about the power of the higher life forms.
Instead, why don't you just tell us exactly how the onos should be in relation to the marines. I want to know what you think should happen when an onos comes up against a heavy train.
Yes, great idea. NSPug stats would be a great help.
Except the BUS will give us all the statistics we need. OOPS did I say something I wasn't supposed to!? ... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Onos trains are great but incredibly rare. Aliens basically need to have the game won already, marines have to stay in game rather than f4 outta boredom, and your team has to have enough coordination to not kill the marines until everyone has gone onos <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->