Slippery Slope
Gink
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
<div class="IPBDescription">hives and alien abilities</div> Something people don't often mention when they discuss the marine/alien balance issue is the alien's slippery slope. Slippery slope is a situation in which your ability to attack and defend decreases as you begin to lose. Some degree of slippery slope is expected and necessary. The aliens' slippery slope is ridiculous.
The aliens require hives to gain power. Once they gain hives, they gain attacks, new evolved forms, and upgrades. Hives are everything. If the aliens lose one hive, they lose one attack per evolution, one evolution, and one upgrade slot. That's a devastating blow. Add in that aliens don't even start out at full power. They only gain effective assault at three hives. All the marines have to do to prevent the aliens from gaining full power is to camp a single hive location. The marines have no such slope. As long as the command post is secure, the marines are at peak effectiveness.
My suggestion, one which would not seriously affect balance other than the wicked slippery slope, is to map the maps slightly larger, with more possible hive locations. If marines camp a few hive locations, all is not lost to the aliens. If a hive is destroyed, the aliens will be severely impacted until they can find a vacant location and start again.
The aliens require hives to gain power. Once they gain hives, they gain attacks, new evolved forms, and upgrades. Hives are everything. If the aliens lose one hive, they lose one attack per evolution, one evolution, and one upgrade slot. That's a devastating blow. Add in that aliens don't even start out at full power. They only gain effective assault at three hives. All the marines have to do to prevent the aliens from gaining full power is to camp a single hive location. The marines have no such slope. As long as the command post is secure, the marines are at peak effectiveness.
My suggestion, one which would not seriously affect balance other than the wicked slippery slope, is to map the maps slightly larger, with more possible hive locations. If marines camp a few hive locations, all is not lost to the aliens. If a hive is destroyed, the aliens will be severely impacted until they can find a vacant location and start again.
Comments
For the most part, this complaint is, in general, amplified by the resource bug, which is a problem that will be a dressed shortly and will make the turret and camping problems much less severe.
Losing is never irreversable when playing the Kharaa. They might take longer to destroy buildings, but requiring 3 hives to win is a crutch you just have to get over.
Allow me to digress into a small story.
We were losing (on the aliens side) badly, we only had one hive and about 3 resource nodes. I got this crazy idea in my head and crept up into the marine's base, instructing my team to lead the squad of 5 marines on a goose chase, since we all had lv3 stealth. Meanwhile, as the marines chased my teammates around, I quickly evolved into a lerk and needle spined their portals to death, (hiding up on a rafter so the turrets couldnt get to me), as well as their commander when he came out.
Hey, it was a win, and we had nothing backing it up. It's possible to win against some pretty crazy odds, you just have to use teamwork.
That's TEAMWORK, in case anyone didnt hear it.
Kotau.
You can only build one type of node (Defensive, Sensory, or Movement) per hive you control.
So if you want cloaking right off the bat, build 3 sensory nodes.
Not hives. You dont need 3 hives to win
Kotau
Also, you need three hives to get third level stealth. You must have all had stealth from before the marines took your third hive over.
Sounds fun to me.
With the server bug how it is, usually it ends up a 6v6 (or realistically, 7v5 or 8v4, seeing how no one will balance teams) without the server going kablooie, or the lag spiking to 4000 ms
Wooh, a 16v16 level with 3+ hive sites.... wow. That would be.... massive and apocalyptic all at once. I like it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Kotau
Also, you need three hives to get third level stealth. You must have all had stealth from before the marines took your third hive over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find building my favorite class... because my team -wins-
You only need to build three sensory towers for the third level cloak... you don't need all three hives.
And upgrade level corresponds <i>only</i> to how many chambers of that type you have, and not to how many hives you have. You can only build one type of chamber per hive, but that's another thing all together.
Was that tweaked with in playtesting?
I'm talking about the 3+ potential hive sites
But, if you think about it, the marines would have to secure 3 rooms on a 4 hive map, 4 on a 5 to keep aliens at 2 hives, since keeping aliens at 2 hives is pretty much the best strategy for marines. And that's without factoring in things like, while we were playtesting, aliens got the second hive up, pretty much usually when marines had secured the third hive room... impossibility.
A. Skulks and gorges can't kill HA marines. They just can't.
B. Skulks and gorges can't destroy marine buildings. The only viable way of destroying buildings as an alien is with Xenocide, bile bombs, or an onos. Note how these skills require THREE HIVES.
C. The aliens can't defend themselves. The offense chambers might as well be shooting spitballs, because they don't DO ANYTHING.
D. Grenade launchers and siege turrets.
Basically, the aliens are in a rut, and there's no way in hell they have any chance of getting out. They could all rush the commander, but that just never happens in public matches.
As of right now, the game is not balanced. I'm sorry.
It's a fine line between one sides' advantage and the others'
Glad to hear another voice of reason in the forums, though.
but then again ,i see how it could also tip balance way in favor of the aliens...
Perhaps the game should just end when the aliens are down to 1 hive and the marines have the entire techtree... so as not to waste time...
*** Or perhaps make it so that the fewer hives you have, the less the spawn delay is? to keep the aliens zerging! ****
The Refinery hive was getting seriously attacked, i was a lerk up in the rafters spiking marines untill i figured we would never win this way.
I then legged it to the underwater tunnel underneath the feedwater hive where i had build a selection of defence chambers to keep me alive underwater along with all my upgrade towers, i then kept on entering the feedwater hive, shooting turrets and retreating to get healed, eventually i took them all out and the phase gate that was there, i evolved to a gorge and waited under the water for enough RPS o get the hive back online.
While waiting the refinary hive was destroyed, but the feedwater started to build and soon enough (thanks to ome sloppy marine play) the aliens were back in buisness and we even managed to get 2 hives untill the server was turned off <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
But, yeah, never give up.
You still need three hives to get access to level three anything, because it takes three hives to build three sensory chambers, right?
A. Skulks and gorges can't kill HA marines. They just can't.
B. Skulks and gorges can't destroy marine buildings. The only viable way of destroying buildings as an alien is with Xenocide, bile bombs, or an onos. Note how these skills require THREE HIVES.
C. The aliens can't defend themselves. The offense chambers might as well be shooting spitballs, because they don't DO ANYTHING.
D. Grenade launchers and siege turrets.
Basically, the aliens are in a rut, and there's no way in hell they have any chance of getting out. They could all rush the commander, but that just never happens in public matches.
As of right now, the game is not balanced. I'm sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats like saying the game is unbalanced because it is impossible for the marines to win when the Kharaa have 3 hives and surround the marine base there is nothing the marines can do to win.
Maybe it's the resource bug. I'm looking forward to playing after the patch is out. It should at least make the game more exciting past the first five minutes of play.
i likes the zerg idea
You are having unrealistic expectations of the aliens adequately defending all three hive locations against a squad of marines right out of the spawn. Firstly, the aliens are spread so thin at that point they can only defend against one or two marines at each hive. Secondly, that tactic is asking too much. Any side with a disadvantage CAN win if they are all awesome players and exectue the most brilliant strategic plan availible to maximum efficiency. Wheras marines only need to travel in groups, or get HA and HMGs and go alone, aliens have to pull brilliant tactics and intelligent distribution out of their butts in order to simply stay in the game.
That is asking too much, where marines are a simple point and click, the aliens (which have been advertised as Deathmatch type play) must use superb working-togetherness and organization without the help of a commander, to go and complete an unrealistic objective so that they can eventually get 3 hives and be able to win.
And if anyone here has played on the pubs, aliens rarely win. I'm not saying it dosen't happen, there's a lot of games where aliens kick major butt. But for the most part, playing as a marine is foolproof. You can't lose, because aliens can't defend the ENTIRE MAP right off the bat with their small numbers, tiny amount of armor and HP you have a spawn, and unfamiliarity with the map thrown in, theres just no way. If that's what's being asked of alien players, the website description should be changed. Because your standard deathmatcher will be unable to do this.
Aliens are fun to stealth around with and kill guys with. But only fun, not effective. Aliens need to be skilled, smart, tactically sound, and fast. And not just a few, all of them. Marines can take their time in their base, then wander out as a group (invincible with their bullet hail flying everywhere) and casually spam the map with turrets and eventually get HMGs and HA, then go deathmatching.
I'm a little fed up with being told that aliens need to be BETTER than marines to win. That says to me, "UNBALANCED". If both teams are equal, it should be an equal game. Right now, if both are equal skill then it's slanted to the marines in many aspects, and I hope that the dev team will consider bolstering the aliens abilities, in whatever way they consider effective.
I love NS, by the way. It's taken the HL engine and made it it's bitch. Which is sweet. Just needs some fixes here and there.
Level is based on number of chambers, not number of hives.
Number of upgrades is based on number of hives.
In other words, you can build one TYPE of chamber per hive. You can build as many of that TYPE as you wish.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=8192&hl=suck' target='_blank'>Topic on subject</a>
Melee vs Grenades:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1: Grenade launcher marines get owned by melee, hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if 2 marines shoot at each others' feet. There's no way to approach them since grens don't do friendly fire but will destroy any approaching alien.
Fade vs marine:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2: Fades can take out heavies without a whole lot of trouble if you are any good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=8597&s=' target='_blank'>See this thread</a>
Not to say fades aren't a good class, but they certainly can't take out heavies "without trouble"
Fade vs turrets:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1 fade can take out 4 turrets if he uses the marine's buildings to block fire<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smart commanders don't build their buildings in the way. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
My personal opinion? Aliens need a special siege-class evolution. Marines have a siege gun. Aliens need something that can take out buildings without trouble but has difficulty with marines.
A. Skulks and gorges can't kill HA marines. They just can't.
B. Skulks and gorges can't destroy marine buildings. The only viable way of destroying buildings as an alien is with Xenocide, bile bombs, or an onos. Note how these skills require THREE HIVES.
C. The aliens can't defend themselves. The offense chambers might as well be shooting spitballs, because they don't DO ANYTHING.
D. Grenade launchers and siege turrets.
Basically, the aliens are in a rut, and there's no way in hell they have any chance of getting out. They could all rush the commander, but that just never happens in public matches.
As of right now, the game is not balanced. I'm sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ridiculous...
If the aliens are in a position where they have 1 hive, and, at the same time, all the marines have HA and HMG's, then that's called a fair game that the aliens lost. I'll admit it's very hard for the aliens to come back (not impossible, though), but that certainly doesn't make the game unbalanced. It just means the marines did a good job, and the aliens weren't able to stop them (or they just sucked... sorry).
If the marines are able to secure two hives, why should you win? If the enemy is better than you, he's bound to win, isn't he? And securing a hive is not easy when the aliens are organized.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not if 2 marines shoot at each others' feet. There's no way to approach them since grens don't do friendly fire but will destroy any approaching alien.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grens still do damage to their owner. These marines would have to be far away from each other, otherwise they'd kill themselves. Not bad for the cost of one skulk.
1) As a skulk, I can take out 3 turrets by myself. 4, if I'm lucky.
2) The lerk's Umbra attack is a beautiful compliment to a Fade's acid rocket. Add a Gorge healing, and you've got a deadly trio who CAN take out bases.
3) I have won entire games as a skulk using nothing but my bite attack. Theoretically, this could be done with ZERO hives. Remember, if the marines lose their CC and Infantry Portal, they've lost. Go for those.
Many playtest games involved the destruction of the initial marine base, with the marines relocated to a hive. Now you have the marines defending a hive, and the aliens stuck at two - according to you all, aliens can't win in that case. And yet, they did, about as often as marines did.
Learn to play the game before you try and pretend you know how it *should* be played.
Oh, and issues with turrets and grenade launchers will *disappear* once the marines aren't swimming in resources any more.
3 hives does not equal aliens winning.
You can win with 0 hives, it's just a LOT harder.
I cannot believe the amount of bitching that's going on about the Kharaa
I love em.
Good or bad idea, i dont know.