you guys need to seriously step back and think about the statistics and WHY there is the statistics... Just because it is possible to knife skulks, the cheapest(free) alien with heavy, catalyst, armor, or whatnot, DOES NOT MEAN IT SHOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE! I RARELY get knifed, why? because I do not let the marine get the opportunity to pull a knife on me. Can a marine WALK ON WALLS?! NO! And even if a marine has a jetpack, at least he is not pasting your 70hp arse on the wall with a shotgun.
If you get the drop on the marine, *CHOMP CHOMP* and he is TOAST, vanilla skulk underpowered, pfft less than one second and the marine is dead. If the marine is observant, you have to be more on the ball, its not ambushing its camping when you wait for him to pass.
I think that skulks are fine, just far too many people are going the "Charge out and bunnyhop towards the marine" tactic.
And I have made a post in the OTHER thread, but people are just far to sensitive to words, just because it is a weapon of last resort DOES NOT mean it is used like a little girl swinging a steak knife. Getting STABBED and RIPPED at with a man made claw is GONNA do some serious damage.
The more I think about it, knife damage should be decreased. Not because its overpowered against the skulk, but because it takes down res nodes quite fast. In clan matches, aliens have a hard time keeping their res nodes up, so lowering knife dammage might help them defend easier.
<!--QuoteBegin-Insomnia+Jun 13 2004, 06:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insomnia @ Jun 13 2004, 06:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The more I think about it, knife damage should be decreased. Not because its overpowered against the skulk, but because it takes down res nodes quite fast. In clan matches, aliens have a hard time keeping their res nodes up, so lowering knife dammage might help them defend easier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, the ability to take down structures faster was the sole purpose for increasing knife damage.
<!--QuoteBegin-Al_Kaholic+Jun 13 2004, 06:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Al_Kaholic @ Jun 13 2004, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Insomnia+Jun 13 2004, 06:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insomnia @ Jun 13 2004, 06:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The more I think about it, knife damage should be decreased. Not because its overpowered against the skulk, but because it takes down res nodes quite fast. In clan matches, aliens have a hard time keeping their res nodes up, so lowering knife dammage might help them defend easier. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, the ability to take down structures faster was the sole purpose for increasing knife damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is a totally unnecessary buff to an already buff marine team. Its perfectly viable to shoot nodes down with minimal commander support already, adding a free and fast option like the knife is overkill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah i say leave the knife the same because if you look at it in a speed perspective, the aliens will always win if its decreased....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. You're not supposed to be able to duel a skulk with just your knife. The skulk is a built hunter, while human beings are weak and rely on technology (as in firearms) to provide compensation.
That being said, a knife is a backup desperation weapon.
Now, if you were talking about resource nodes, that's different. I'm in favor of giving the knife blast damage after halving its damage, so it does double damage against structures. Meaning it would STILL do 30 damage against structures, but a more realistic 15 against aliens.
Um for all of you thinking Knives would be weak and gimp and such against these "ultimate" hunters.
There are many RL Knife fighting styles that are simply amazing
Oh, that's RL, of course.
How about a sci fi example?
Pitch Black, Riddick took down one of the aliens 1 on 1 using his knife and bare hands.
And he didn't get military training with the knife. They're MARINES.
Have you ever been in the military? They teach you combat with every weapon you will use. Marksmanship with guns along with how to operate them, Knife combat, Unarmed Combat.
It's kind of dumb to say "It should be a last resort that sucks" - It is a last resort, but it's effective if used right. A newb can't own with it except against other newbs. But a good player will own nebws.
<!--QuoteBegin-Xyrcai+Jun 13 2004, 08:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xyrcai @ Jun 13 2004, 08:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um for all of you thinking Knives would be weak and gimp and such against these "ultimate" hunters.
There are many RL Knife fighting styles that are simply amazing
Oh, that's RL, of course.
How about a sci fi example?
Pitch Black, Riddick took down one of the aliens 1 on 1 using his knife and bare hands.
And he didn't get military training with the knife. They're MARINES.
Have you ever been in the military? They teach you combat with every weapon you will use. Marksmanship with guns along with how to operate them, Knife combat, Unarmed Combat.
It's kind of dumb to say "It should be a last resort that sucks" - It is a last resort, but it's effective if used right. A newb can't own with it except against other newbs. But a good player will own nebws.
It's fine as it is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's completely irrelevant.
The RL scenario: heavily evolved monster with its alien armor (not some wimpy fur hide) will win.
The movie scenario: of course the hero of the movie is going to massacre aliens. But in NS, every player is the "hero", including the aliens.
If you think 4 slashes is "too few" you are a sick, sick, person. Think of it this way. Marine and Alien melee fight. Skulk needs 2 bites. Marine needs 4 slashes.
Marines don't have enough melee weapons. Lets add chainsaws and lightsabers.
Xyrcai, of course the knife shouldn't be completely useless, but I have seen people go entire combat games knife only and have a 30-10 ratio. I think it should be less effective than it is now.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 13 2004, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 13 2004, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you think 4 slashes is "too few" you are a sick, sick, person. Think of it this way. Marine and Alien melee fight. Skulk needs 2 bites. Marine needs 4 slashes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> .....with Marine knife High Rate of fire on the knife, which is about 2x faster then bite. Well you pretty much have a even match going on. and assuming the marine shot the alien to 40 hp or less, thats 1-2 slashes. Total BS, when a skulk gets close to a LA marine, its chances of winning should be over 50% in a 1v1 situation.
Now aliens have NO Decent ranged weapons (unless u say spit is good, which it can be easrly game) but Aliens are ALL melee. Marines have the range advantage and now they have an amazing weapon that can take out 1 skulk in 3 slashes? I see a balancing problem here which has been in NS for quite some time.
PGU, please read topics before you post a point that has already had a counter to it during gameplay. Read before posting, thank you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Made by getting up right next to the edge of a wall made of individual glass squares and attacking with the two weapons. The range difference is tiny, but it is there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow.. not only is the range difference tiny, but if I'm looking at that right, the difference in the width of the attack is huge.
So you guys saying that the skulks have range advantage, you can reliably land in that sweet spot of range that is the difference between the marine knife and your bite? While the marine is moving as well?
Goddamn, that's impressive.
However, for the 95% of us without having pinpoint spatial control while moving at skulk speeds, would the toning down the knife slightly really do that much damage to the marine's game? After all, from your point of view, they never hit you anyway, so what do you care?
The way I see it is if the marines rely on their knife so much that nerfing it slightly would damage them, then they rely on it too much considering they're supposed to be the distance specialists.
On the other hand, if nerfing the knife would make no real difference to the marine game, then why the argument against it considering how many times it's come up? Obviously there's some sort of problem with it because the topic keeps coming up from different people.
The main problem I see is skulks are being ticked off because marines are winning against them (and mabye there other teamates as well) in melee when the skulk seing only having 1 effective attack (being a melee one) is losing to something that should not even be considered for a marine to take out unless seeing a alien rt / non oc structure. and i completly agree with them.
And if the knife deal doin 30 dmg to aliens with the high rof atm is going to stay. Then Please NS dev team. Update the Manual and replace
"Knife is a last resort weapon, better to run then fight the kharaa in hand 2 hand".
change it to something along the lines of:
"A very effective weapon against alien structures, and aliens themselves. Use if your out of ammo. Better to beat kharaa in melee then run." <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ok. You want the secret to beating a knifer? Here's what you do. First, you un-superglue your finger from the "W" key. Next, you aim, move, and bite. OMG I HAVE TO ACTUALLY CONTROL MY LIFEFORM!? WTH NO FAIR
The skulk has greater range and greater speed than any knifer hopes to obtain. ROF doesn't matter if it's not going to hit <i>anything</i> whatsoever.
Crazy, I know, but you might have to use a little finesse while playing. A rine w/no ammo is also known as a VERY dead rine.
Greater range? Only by that much. A TINY difference. In close combat, I'd like to see you stay right at the marine's range boundary while still biting him. You have a 3-inch margin of error, incredibly small when you're talking about skulks that travel about that far with one tap of the W button.
That's the situation you're in when you have 30 health. You don't let him hit you, or you die. Many marines also have developed a great ability to jump upon skulks and deliver the final slash into the alien's blind spot.
Come on. Read the stats I posted. They are the only solid records brought into this argument so far and it seems that everyone has neglected them.
Since when did speed become a factor? When is a marine alone? When is a marine not Crack jumping? If you have a group of five crack jumping marines, the one you target just happens to run out of ammo, he can still kill you with his knife. CrackHopping > Speed. Sure, people say "get more skill" but even good players can become disorientated when a marine crack-hops, especially if all of them do it. Also the fact is, speed is nothing WHEN you have to be in range in order to bite. Which always made me wonder why there is a shotgun, QBC VS QBC just shouldnt happen in a game where certain lifeforms are weaker than others.
I can easily take down a single crack-hopping knifing marine, but what happens when he has his buddies, and they still have their weapons? Now I can kill 2-3 skulks per a life time as a marine, a group of five marines could most certainly do the same, with knife or not.
Otherwise, if the marines have an effective melee weapon, aliens should have an effective ranged weapon, lets give them an "Alien Warefare Missile"! That right, this AWM will kill any marine in oneshot from any distance! And then you fast switch to your gun while it reloads! I vote for AWM!
I didnt say they all were, but with the knife or without, marines still have a chance of doing more damage to a skulk at long and close range. If parasite kills rivaled knife kills, then I would shut up.
The problem is that it isn't intuitive. If the skulks are meant to use their mystical teeth spitting attack to kill marines out of close combat, then it should say that. If their bite is meant to be a close combat weapon, then if anything the range should be shorter than a marine knife.
I don't mind being knifed in combat, but I do mind when that knife is an effective weapon. It is even worse if I'm expected to know that the bite isn't really a close combat weapon, but a short ranged gun designed to take down marines before they can bring their powerful melee weapons to bear on me.
I'd take paracite over knife any day- You para a rine, you've just given yourself a wallhack on them.
If a rine jumps, he takes that *tiny* bit of range the knife has, and shoots it to ****. If a rine jumps at someone knifeing, the skulk can practically be underneath him and not take a hit.
The reason for the rine's knife range being so "tall" is also because the rine is tall. If it had the range of a skulk in terms of height and the range of a knife in terms of distance, then you'd have a pretty useless weapon. Well, even more useless. If the knife stays the way it is, the rine has a *SMALL* chance of winning.
Also, that "Tiny" bit of range you people talk about not mattering is quite a foolish thing to say. The skulk, having superior speed and range, has EVERY reason to win a fight against a knife w/o taking any hits whatsoever.
Honestly, you ought to complain about paracite damage next. Try this- rines who have armor 2, bite them 3 times than paracite them. It's the same concept of shooting a skulk to low HP then knifeing them- it CAN get kills. Will it often? Not really. But it CAN. As the skulk can prevent himself from getting knifed, the rine can prevent themselves from being paracited by shooting the skulk before it gets a chance to use it afterwards. Both sides have their advantages, and both have their pretty terrible variants into eachothers specialty- knife for melee on rines, and (for starting anyways) paracite for aliens. One shouldn't nerf them into uselessness- they're still THERE as a viable option, just as it is, not a very likely one. Give it a shot. Go knife only against a decent player, and watch what happens. Not "OH MAN I KNOW A GUY NAMMED JIMMY HES RELY GOD BIT I CAN NIFE HIM NEWAY LOL" good, try it against any expert skulk. I'm not going to throw out any names to avoid drama and e-peen0r wars, but there are some seriously good people out there, and they don't even have to use 1/100000000 of their skill to beat a knifing rine. Once people start using their brains instead of "I am an alien, so I shouldn't have to use any sort of skill whatsoever when I'm up close, I should just win," I promise you that the knife will not be so "overpowered" anymore.
Sorry if that seems a bit harsh. But all the statistics, all the numbers, everything points in favor of the knife loseing to a skulk.
::EDIT:: If there's a bunch of rines and you take them head on, by yourself, as a skulk, then yes, odds are you're going to die regardless of what you do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Honestly, you ought to complain about paracite damage next. Try this- rines who have armor 2, bite them 3 times than paracite them. It's the same concept of shooting a skulk to low HP then knifeing them- it CAN get kills. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sonic. pulling 3 bites off a marine with being shot 2 30 hp. OH wait, im sorry. a Crazy hopping marine, is quite tough sometimes. for even a skilled skulk player. Now you need 4 bites to kill this marine, yet he has a melee weapon on him that can kill you in 1 slice. So now marines have an very effective ranged weapon, AND a very effective melee weapon. While aliens have horrible ranged weapons (damage wise) and good melee. The marines should have really good Ranged weapons, which they do. But a not so good melee weapon. This would balance out players on the field, seeing how most maps have long and bright corridors. When a skulk gets right up to a marine with the same skill level, im sorry but chances of the skulk winning should be way over 65%, not about 40% if the marine has no ammo
A rine with no ammo. You do realize that the skulks got, well if we're going to throw random percentages into the air, roughly 90% odds in their favor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A rine with no ammo. You do realize that the skulks got, well if we're going to throw random percentages into the air, roughly 90% odds in their favor. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A marine with no ammo and a skulk with bleeding wounds, bringing it within knife slash of death. That oughta change the odds a bit.
Plus, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about all of the numbers pointing in the skulk's direction. Sure, player-per-player, the skulk will win most of the time.
But where do the 2,500 kills in these server stats come from?
Well, most people like stats because they measure "skill", which I'm not fond of. What I like about stats is that they provide a GREAT place to start when looking at balancing. It may be a bit weird with NS, looking at how some guns are obviously used more than others (you can't balance the LMG and HMG by looking at the kill count), but we do know that knives should not be racking up massive amounts of kills.
Bite: 57,570. Knife: 2,500.
Both bite and knife come standard issue. But you have to think: 2500 skulks, falling before a weapon that is deemed a weapon of desperation. I click on the knife to bring up the kill chart, somebody topping the chart with 221 knife kills.
If you ask me, that's a bit over-the-top. I know, I might very well be complaining about this because I'm frustrated by being knifed so much (nearly 30 times now), but that's the point. I'm frustrated because I'm losing battles to marines who are supposed to be weilding inferior weaponry, but they evidently aren't... He's within arm's reach of killing me, which falls just short of my lunge, yet I'm not good enough yet to lethally strike beyond the knife's deadly reach, and I doubt that very many ARE good enough to garuntee victory.
At least its a knife and not a crowbar <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Oh and the knife Damage is fine for me, If you are letting yourself getting knifed its your own damn fault. The bite range of the skulk is superior to the knife, so stay out of his melee reach.
Nerf the katana please, why should the skulk have to be afaid of a KNIFE? Seriously now, the skulk evades 2 clips of weapons and to die by a knife....is quite out of atmosphere and just lames the game.
My max amount of knife kills in one game is 8, where I went HA in combat and used knife all game long (8v8)
Also, if you just parasite him once and keep your distance wanna know what happens? I'm talking both combat/NS here.
1. Another marine comes and kills you easily. 2. He keeps distance and finally when you get another skulk to kill a <i>knifer</i>. 3. He tricks you by reloading a pistol, if you don't attack now you die but he fast switchs knife out and kills you 50 50 chance...-lame-.
What can the skulk kill in a one vs one battle now adays?
1. A surprised marine, roughly 60% of the time if he has Armor1-2. 2. Out of ammo LA, that is, if he doesn't pull out the knife.
Lets face it, the skulk sucks and the knife just proves it.
Also, if this is in combat the marine can easily get resupplied to full health.
Make the welder deal 30 damage to structures, nerf the knife to 20-15 damage.
Its quite funny how contradicting khaara 'melee mastery' is. You have to watch out for the bloody knife and the shotty which is quite uber in the right hands.
Now I ask you, why do you care if the knife damage is reduced? I mean, after all, no one ever gets a knife kill!!!!!! *Hack wheeze cough gag vomit die*
Comments
If you get the drop on the marine, *CHOMP CHOMP* and he is TOAST, vanilla skulk underpowered, pfft less than one second and the marine is dead. If the marine is observant, you have to be more on the ball, its not ambushing its camping when you wait for him to pass.
I think that skulks are fine, just far too many people are going the "Charge out and bunnyhop towards the marine" tactic.
And I have made a post in the OTHER thread, but people are just far to sensitive to words, just because it is a weapon of last resort DOES NOT mean it is used like a little girl swinging a steak knife. Getting STABBED and RIPPED at with a man made claw is GONNA do some serious damage.
Marine RT takes 75 bites<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, but how long does each of those take? (taking into account energy drain) Time is the important stat.
Funny, the ability to take down structures faster was the sole purpose for increasing knife damage.
Funny, the ability to take down structures faster was the sole purpose for increasing knife damage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is a totally unnecessary buff to an already buff marine team. Its perfectly viable to shoot nodes down with minimal commander support already, adding a free and fast option like the knife is overkill.
Exactly. You're not supposed to be able to duel a skulk with just your knife. The skulk is a built hunter, while human beings are weak and rely on technology (as in firearms) to provide compensation.
That being said, a knife is a backup desperation weapon.
Now, if you were talking about resource nodes, that's different. I'm in favor of giving the knife blast damage after halving its damage, so it does double damage against structures. Meaning it would STILL do 30 damage against structures, but a more realistic 15 against aliens.
There are many RL Knife fighting styles that are simply amazing
Oh, that's RL, of course.
How about a sci fi example?
Pitch Black, Riddick took down one of the aliens 1 on 1 using his knife and bare hands.
And he didn't get military training with the knife. They're MARINES.
Have you ever been in the military? They teach you combat with every weapon you will use. Marksmanship with guns along with how to operate them, Knife combat, Unarmed Combat.
It's kind of dumb to say "It should be a last resort that sucks" - It is a last resort, but it's effective if used right. A newb can't own with it except against other newbs. But a good player will own nebws.
It's fine as it is.
There are many RL Knife fighting styles that are simply amazing
Oh, that's RL, of course.
How about a sci fi example?
Pitch Black, Riddick took down one of the aliens 1 on 1 using his knife and bare hands.
And he didn't get military training with the knife. They're MARINES.
Have you ever been in the military? They teach you combat with every weapon you will use. Marksmanship with guns along with how to operate them, Knife combat, Unarmed Combat.
It's kind of dumb to say "It should be a last resort that sucks" - It is a last resort, but it's effective if used right. A newb can't own with it except against other newbs. But a good player will own nebws.
It's fine as it is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's completely irrelevant.
The RL scenario: heavily evolved monster with its alien armor (not some wimpy fur hide) will win.
The movie scenario: of course the hero of the movie is going to massacre aliens. But in NS, every player is the "hero", including the aliens.
Xyrcai, of course the knife shouldn't be completely useless, but I have seen people go entire combat games knife only and have a 30-10 ratio. I think it should be less effective than it is now.
.....with Marine knife High Rate of fire on the knife, which is about 2x faster then bite. Well you pretty much have a even match going on. and assuming the marine shot the alien to 40 hp or less, thats 1-2 slashes. Total BS, when a skulk gets close to a LA marine, its chances of winning should be over 50% in a 1v1 situation.
Now aliens have NO Decent ranged weapons (unless u say spit is good, which it can be easrly game) but Aliens are ALL melee. Marines have the range advantage and now they have an amazing weapon that can take out 1 skulk in 3 slashes? I see a balancing problem here which has been in NS for quite some time.
<img src='http://bob.thezazi.net/knifebite.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Made by getting up right next to the edge of a wall made of individual glass squares and attacking with the two weapons. The range difference is tiny, but it is there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow.. not only is the range difference tiny, but if I'm looking at that right, the difference in the width of the attack is huge.
So you guys saying that the skulks have range advantage, you can reliably land in that sweet spot of range that is the difference between the marine knife and your bite? While the marine is moving as well?
Goddamn, that's impressive.
However, for the 95% of us without having pinpoint spatial control while moving at skulk speeds, would the toning down the knife slightly really do that much damage to the marine's game? After all, from your point of view, they never hit you anyway, so what do you care?
The way I see it is if the marines rely on their knife so much that nerfing it slightly would damage them, then they rely on it too much considering they're supposed to be the distance specialists.
On the other hand, if nerfing the knife would make no real difference to the marine game, then why the argument against it considering how many times it's come up? Obviously there's some sort of problem with it because the topic keeps coming up from different people.
And if the knife deal doin 30 dmg to aliens with the high rof atm is going to stay. Then Please NS dev team. Update the Manual and replace
"Knife is a last resort weapon, better to run then fight the kharaa in hand 2 hand".
change it to something along the lines of:
"A very effective weapon against alien structures, and aliens themselves. Use if your out of ammo. Better to beat kharaa in melee then run." <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The skulk has greater range and greater speed than any knifer hopes to obtain. ROF doesn't matter if it's not going to hit <i>anything</i> whatsoever.
Crazy, I know, but you might have to use a little finesse while playing. A rine w/no ammo is also known as a VERY dead rine.
That's the situation you're in when you have 30 health. You don't let him hit you, or you die. Many marines also have developed a great ability to jump upon skulks and deliver the final slash into the alien's blind spot.
Come on. Read the stats I posted. They are the only solid records brought into this argument so far and it seems that everyone has neglected them.
CrackHopping > Speed. Sure, people say "get more skill" but even good players can become disorientated when a marine crack-hops, especially if all of them do it. Also the fact is, speed is nothing WHEN you have to be in range in order to bite. Which always made me wonder why there is a shotgun, QBC VS QBC just shouldnt happen in a game where certain lifeforms are weaker than others.
I can easily take down a single crack-hopping knifing marine, but what happens when he has his buddies, and they still have their weapons? Now I can kill 2-3 skulks per a life time as a marine, a group of five marines could most certainly do the same, with knife or not.
Otherwise, if the marines have an effective melee weapon, aliens should have an effective ranged weapon, lets give them an "Alien Warefare Missile"! That right, this AWM will kill any marine in oneshot from any distance! And then you fast switch to your gun while it reloads! I vote for AWM!
(Spot that refrence)
I don't mind being knifed in combat, but I do mind when that knife is an effective weapon. It is even worse if I'm expected to know that the bite isn't really a close combat weapon, but a short ranged gun designed to take down marines before they can bring their powerful melee weapons to bear on me.
If a rine jumps, he takes that *tiny* bit of range the knife has, and shoots it to ****. If a rine jumps at someone knifeing, the skulk can practically be underneath him and not take a hit.
The reason for the rine's knife range being so "tall" is also because the rine is tall. If it had the range of a skulk in terms of height and the range of a knife in terms of distance, then you'd have a pretty useless weapon. Well, even more useless. If the knife stays the way it is, the rine has a *SMALL* chance of winning.
Also, that "Tiny" bit of range you people talk about not mattering is quite a foolish thing to say. The skulk, having superior speed and range, has EVERY reason to win a fight against a knife w/o taking any hits whatsoever.
Honestly, you ought to complain about paracite damage next. Try this- rines who have armor 2, bite them 3 times than paracite them. It's the same concept of shooting a skulk to low HP then knifeing them- it CAN get kills. Will it often? Not really. But it CAN. As the skulk can prevent himself from getting knifed, the rine can prevent themselves from being paracited by shooting the skulk before it gets a chance to use it afterwards. Both sides have their advantages, and both have their pretty terrible variants into eachothers specialty- knife for melee on rines, and (for starting anyways) paracite for aliens. One shouldn't nerf them into uselessness- they're still THERE as a viable option, just as it is, not a very likely one. Give it a shot. Go knife only against a decent player, and watch what happens. Not "OH MAN I KNOW A GUY NAMMED JIMMY HES RELY GOD BIT I CAN NIFE HIM NEWAY LOL" good, try it against any expert skulk. I'm not going to throw out any names to avoid drama and e-peen0r wars, but there are some seriously good people out there, and they don't even have to use 1/100000000 of their skill to beat a knifing rine. Once people start using their brains instead of "I am an alien, so I shouldn't have to use any sort of skill whatsoever when I'm up close, I should just win," I promise you that the knife will not be so "overpowered" anymore.
Sorry if that seems a bit harsh. But all the statistics, all the numbers, everything points in favor of the knife loseing to a skulk.
::EDIT:: If there's a bunch of rines and you take them head on, by yourself, as a skulk, then yes, odds are you're going to die regardless of what you do.
Sonic. pulling 3 bites off a marine with being shot 2 30 hp. OH wait, im sorry. a Crazy hopping marine, is quite tough sometimes. for even a skilled skulk player. Now you need 4 bites to kill this marine, yet he has a melee weapon on him that can kill you in 1 slice. So now marines have an very effective ranged weapon, AND a very effective melee weapon. While aliens have horrible ranged weapons (damage wise) and good melee. The marines should have really good Ranged weapons, which they do. But a not so good melee weapon. This would balance out players on the field, seeing how most maps have long and bright corridors. When a skulk gets right up to a marine with the same skill level, im sorry but chances of the skulk winning should be way over 65%, not about 40% if the marine has no ammo
A marine with no ammo and a skulk with bleeding wounds, bringing it within knife slash of death. That oughta change the odds a bit.
Plus, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about all of the numbers pointing in the skulk's direction. Sure, player-per-player, the skulk will win most of the time.
But where do the 2,500 kills in these server stats come from?
<a href='http://www.lsclan.com/~one/stats/index.php?page=weaponlist' target='_blank'>http://www.lsclan.com/~one/stats/index.php?page=weaponlist</a>
Well, most people like stats because they measure "skill", which I'm not fond of. What I like about stats is that they provide a GREAT place to start when looking at balancing. It may be a bit weird with NS, looking at how some guns are obviously used more than others (you can't balance the LMG and HMG by looking at the kill count), but we do know that knives should not be racking up massive amounts of kills.
Bite: 57,570.
Knife: 2,500.
Both bite and knife come standard issue. But you have to think: 2500 skulks, falling before a weapon that is deemed a weapon of desperation. I click on the knife to bring up the kill chart, somebody topping the chart with 221 knife kills.
If you ask me, that's a bit over-the-top. I know, I might very well be complaining about this because I'm frustrated by being knifed so much (nearly 30 times now), but that's the point. I'm frustrated because I'm losing battles to marines who are supposed to be weilding inferior weaponry, but they evidently aren't... He's within arm's reach of killing me, which falls just short of my lunge, yet I'm not good enough yet to lethally strike beyond the knife's deadly reach, and I doubt that very many ARE good enough to garuntee victory.
Oh and the knife Damage is fine for me, If you are letting yourself getting knifed its your own damn fault. The bite range of the skulk is superior to the knife, so stay out of his melee reach.
Knife = 30, lmg = 10, HMG and pistol = 20.
I doesn't understand.
I agree knife damage change blast type.
i think knife damage is fine,why would a marine nearly shoot his own foot off killing a monster when he can just stab it
My max amount of knife kills in one game is 8, where I went HA in combat and used knife all game long (8v8)
Also, if you just parasite him once and keep your distance wanna know what happens? I'm talking both combat/NS here.
1. Another marine comes and kills you easily.
2. He keeps distance and finally when you get another skulk to kill a <i>knifer</i>.
3. He tricks you by reloading a pistol, if you don't attack now you die but he fast switchs knife out and kills you 50 50 chance...-lame-.
What can the skulk kill in a one vs one battle now adays?
1. A surprised marine, roughly 60% of the time if he has Armor1-2.
2. Out of ammo LA, that is, if he doesn't pull out the knife.
Lets face it, the skulk sucks and the knife just proves it.
Also, if this is in combat the marine can easily get resupplied to full health.
Make the welder deal 30 damage to structures, nerf the knife to 20-15 damage.
Its quite funny how contradicting khaara 'melee mastery' is. You have to watch out for the bloody knife and the shotty which is quite uber in the right hands.
Now I ask you, why do you care if the knife damage is reduced? I mean, after all, no one ever gets a knife kill!!!!!! *Hack wheeze cough gag vomit die*