First Set Of Stats
Recoup
Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members
Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Win / Loss Records</div> Hey peeps. I realised that since we cant just draw logs from the server to show who won, then I just took the results down manually, and with great detail. Here is what I came up with in about 5 hours of playing. (Granted a few breaks here and there)
TOTAL ROUNDS: 20
TIME LENGTH: 5 Hours
ALIEN WINS: 11
MARINE WINS: 9
TIME: 2:37 - 7:39
Combat: (Shortest Time to Longest Time)
<b>Aliens:</b>
- co_pulse : 3:33
- co_pulse : 5:22
- co_kestrel : 7:24
- co_kestrel : 11:35
- co_rebirth : 28:47
TOTAL TIME: 56:41
AVERAGE TIME: 11:29
<b>Marines:</b>
- co_faceoff : 3:24
- co_faceoff : 6:35
- co_faceoff : 8:56
- co_loathing : 13:35
- co_ulysses : 24:06
TOTAL TIME: 56:36
AVERAGE TIME: 11:28
Classic: (Shortest Time to Longest Time)
<b>Aliens:</b>
- ns_nothing : 2:47
- ns_eclipse : 6:57
- ns_eclipse : 12:22
- ns_tanith : 14:22
- ns_eclipse : 19:15
- ns_hera : 21:20
TOTAL TIME: 77:03
AVERAGE TIME: 13:24
<b>Marines:</b>
- ns_nothing : 16:02
- ns_caged : 22:03
- ns_bast : 23:19
- ns_nancy : 32:30
TOTAL TIME: 93:54
AVERAGE TIME: 23: 39
As you can see, aliens still have the upper hand, while combat maps are very level and very balanced, the classic maps leave marines eating dust. I will continue writing these down for an additional 20 rounds tomorrow, until I have reached about 100 or 200 rounds, depending on how long I can go on. There was no time limit, meaning the game just continued until one side won.
EDIT: Played on server "Lerky Jerky"
TOTAL ROUNDS: 20
TIME LENGTH: 5 Hours
ALIEN WINS: 11
MARINE WINS: 9
TIME: 2:37 - 7:39
Combat: (Shortest Time to Longest Time)
<b>Aliens:</b>
- co_pulse : 3:33
- co_pulse : 5:22
- co_kestrel : 7:24
- co_kestrel : 11:35
- co_rebirth : 28:47
TOTAL TIME: 56:41
AVERAGE TIME: 11:29
<b>Marines:</b>
- co_faceoff : 3:24
- co_faceoff : 6:35
- co_faceoff : 8:56
- co_loathing : 13:35
- co_ulysses : 24:06
TOTAL TIME: 56:36
AVERAGE TIME: 11:28
Classic: (Shortest Time to Longest Time)
<b>Aliens:</b>
- ns_nothing : 2:47
- ns_eclipse : 6:57
- ns_eclipse : 12:22
- ns_tanith : 14:22
- ns_eclipse : 19:15
- ns_hera : 21:20
TOTAL TIME: 77:03
AVERAGE TIME: 13:24
<b>Marines:</b>
- ns_nothing : 16:02
- ns_caged : 22:03
- ns_bast : 23:19
- ns_nancy : 32:30
TOTAL TIME: 93:54
AVERAGE TIME: 23: 39
As you can see, aliens still have the upper hand, while combat maps are very level and very balanced, the classic maps leave marines eating dust. I will continue writing these down for an additional 20 rounds tomorrow, until I have reached about 100 or 200 rounds, depending on how long I can go on. There was no time limit, meaning the game just continued until one side won.
EDIT: Played on server "Lerky Jerky"
Comments
The stats you have now are good only for showing balance in relation to a tournament setting (where all that counts is win/loss). Balance in relation to total game (much more important for singe game settings -- like most pub games) isn't touched on at all.
(like the possibility of having "regulars" play on that server that tend to favor a certain side)
If you have the stats of 20 Servers and lets say 1000 Rounds than we have some Stats that are useful.
All the servers I frequent (about 7 odd servers located on 4 farms in 2 countries) the marines have the upper hand in classic every single time. The only time when the aliens have a chance is when their team is stacked or the marines went without a commander for the first 2 frantic minutes
Combat is totally different though. Perfectly balanced in wins/loss for both teams given skill balancced teams, though I do notice a slight bias towards aliens depending on the time setting (15 minutes is a little too short for some servers while for others it's just fine)
My latest batch of games were absolutely terrible though. About 10 odd games in classic, Marines: 10. Main reason? An alien team that had no concept of self-sacrifice. About 2 odd early lerks (within 1-2 minutes) and about 2 Fades went out before we even had 3 DCs! And that's counting the fact that I gorge for the first 2:00 to get the two initial DCs out. And that's even with a commander who was so slow in reactions it was PAINFUL to watch. From my point of view, even with a totally useless commander, the marines can win through pure skill of one/two individual marines. In contrast, the alien team has to have a good 50-70% of the team made up of experianced, skilled players to even have a hope of winning. Should the amrines be blessed with such a high ratio of experianced players AND have a good comm, it's a certain victory no matter what.
Ok, I've ranted and raved over my pet peeves. It's out of my system now
You guys werent very picky about the guy who listed HIS stats with only the win/loss and win/loss percentages.
I dont know about the servers you play on: Pubs, I would imagine, where everyone has almost no sense of teamwork at times and it is all in chaos. Tell ya what, today I'll list the server "NSArms Lab 4" I believe, and we will see where that goes.
On the server, there is rarely a moment where people are not informed. The teamwork present is a teir above what you find in a public server, but it's not quite to the level of clan play.
I actually think that the aliens are winning because the marines are being stacked.
You can read it all you like, it will come out to the same thing. On our server, we have clan members and community members who regular the server a LOT. When the public server-type folk show up, they tend to stack marines. Well, that forces the clan members and community members (who know that the rules are against stacking) to go alien. And what happens? The superior teamwork present within the clan and community, many of whom know each other, on the alien team beats down the marines EVERY TIME.
I'm going to tell you right now that you're not dealing with your average alien team. When I command against these guys, I only occasionally scrape out a win. When a resource node goes up, it goes down. That siege point is fried in the next few minutes. When heavies go out, heavies go down. Heck, even with some disciplined clan members playing, the heavy train is hideously hard to keep together. I'm not sure if I've ever won against an alien team with more than two regulars on it. If you need proof that I'm not just some "noob comm," I might just take some commanding game demos.
I want to also make it clear that having regulars on the marine team doesn't help much. Once the alien team on this server gets going, there is NO stopping them. No hope at all, regardless of the amount of finesse, teamwork, and skill you display on the battlefield.
I'm not saying that they have counter-strike-esque firing skill either. I occasionally outshoot these guys on my good days. They just hold a superior standard of teamwork on the server.
I'm not sure if we need another server to demonstrate the point. The point I'm making with these stats (props, Recoup!) is that aliens will overpower you if they use the magical voice communication button.
It seems that when you see stats that go against your flow you all of the sudden get extremely skeptical about them. I rarely see the question asked about server regular bias when the stats favor the marines. Maybe you should clear your thoughts and see what these stats mean, instead of tearing them to pieces like carnivores.
You're trying to present an opinion to influence the game's balance, and anything that gets patched into the next build goes to ALL servers. I'm sure you can see the problem with presenting statistics that don't necessarily represent the bulk of the servers being affected by the proposed changes.
It's also worth noting that apparently the combat time limit is way on the high side. If it's more or less balanced there then aliens would dominate with the default limit, which I think is what a lot of players who play with 10-15 minutes have found. Details like that really have to be mentioned before you try to draw a conclusion.
Setting standards such as Minimal 5 vs 5 from very start of the game. Be sure to note:
Map Name
team counts
time
I am one under the impression Marines are way too strong. Yes, if you can truely cordinate the aliens you have a very good chance of winning. I would love our pub marines to play against your pub aliens Recoup. I think it would be Onos bugers for everyone.
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You guys werent very picky about the guy who listed HIS stats with only the win/loss and win/loss percentages. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Information like this is CRUCIAL to any understanding of game balance. (See my post above.)
I posted nearly the same thing in reply to the only other post I've seen listing win/loss statistics.
Please note that 5v5-8v8 is considered a small game by many people, (although I personally feel 6v6-8v8 is ideal). Game size makes a HUGE difference in balance in NS.
Additionally, things like average-time-to-win for marines vs aliens are needed. (If one team is upping their win percentage because of a number of successful rush-wins, it's something that needs to be examined.)
In short, statistics are nice, but if you're going to bother doing them at all, you need to do them right or they're really worthless.
Actually 20 is not a bad number at all, statistically. But he hasn't done any statistical analysis to determine whether the alien/marine wins are significantly different.
Furthermore his sample wasn't random, meaning we can not make conclusions regarding the entire NS group.
It is really nice that people are posting stats so we can tell if the game is balanced in a more objective way.
"those people" who thought so meant that the statistics that recoup is laying out is insufficient due to the fact that they come from ONE server.
There must be atleast a hundred thousand servers out there that has NS running on it. Taking stats from ONE out of all that servers is really not an accurate way to prove that aliens are overpowered and stuff. It's like saying the whole basket of apples are rotten because there is one rotten apple in it. You get my drift? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Public servers really aren't a great judge of game balance however. There are a lot of public players that can't hit skulks for ****, making aliens "overpowered" (especially any skulk that knows how to bhop, or at least jump when they move). And when a half decent fade enters the picture...gg. But other public servers there are skulks that just run in straight lines down long hallways, so marines can pick them off easier than anything. And there are some public servers that have good commanders that are regulars, other public servers have no good commanders ever go to their server.
ALIENS:
- eclipse : 22:54
- nothing : 21:30
- nancy : 27:23
- hera : 24:51
- origin : 23:30
MARINES:
- nothing : 17:05
- nothing : 20:10
- eclipse : 16:03
- veil : 21:45
- nancy : 17:37
I noticed that when the aliens lost, it was because half the team was just running around and doing absolutely nothing. When they worked together, it made the marines look like fools.
A side note that I wish to put in because I like it: The game on "ns_nothing" won in 17 minutes, was me. I commanded that round and won. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The teams were always above a minimum of 7 players and there were never any stackings involved.
While I know people will **** about how "its only a small portion" of the bigger picture, and yes it is, it goes to show that it was still a close match even in 10 games, and people didnt stay on for more then 2 rounds at a time, so we were always switching in and out from player to player.
Guys, please just trust me when I say, it is very apparent that aliens dont need to be beefed and marines dont need to be downgraded. NS rocks the way it is, and also I noticed that when marines were n00bs that one skulks could turn the whole team into wild shooters, and when a pack of n00b skulks approached only two marines, the marines tore them to pieces. This happened inbetween round and round, but I did have to exclude one examination that went on for a full hour, and the game was STILL tied, but I had to leave! CURSES!
Sorry, but unless you have a LOT of time on your hands it's impossible to take statistics by hand that will sufficiently cover the issue.
-Benjamin Disraeli (1804 - 1881)
I swear, for some reason it is going to be near impossible for me to get admin logs. Whenever I ask for them they refuse to fork them over. So, go get them yourselves. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is 30 games total, and so far they show to be very level.
NOTE TO EVERYONE: I am getting there, ok? Only about 70 more games to record, and I'm reaching my 100 games mark, so, I'm presenting the stats bit by bit, so maybe you can help me out by going off and finding a server and recording even 5 games. That would help instead of telling me how insignificant these stats are.
Including that one <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Now before you go nuclear, let me say that I do believe that your being honest with what you've reported so far. But its just impossible for one person to compile these statistics by hand. The amount of data and variables is just too large. I applaud you for your effort, but I do believe your current effort is in vain. You need access to server logs, and a parser to pull out the relevant data.
Now I can't speak for the man or group, but as is mentioned in the Unchain threads Tactical Gamer is currently runnning the Unchained modification on their server. Wyzcrak is the head administrator for the Natural Selection server, and I would imagine has access to the logs that would be benifical to your quest (you do need both sides of the coin, I hope you realize that) Either send him a PM here as he's registered with the same name, or head on over to their forums and make the request in the <a href='http://forums.tacticalgamer.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33' target='_blank'>NS sub-forum</a> there.
Unfortunatly I can't offer the names of any servers that don't run the unchained mod, as I don't play on them.
Good luck with your quest.
But what WOULD be helpfull is telling me how I CAN extract the admin logs from the servers. Admins I meet dont know how to do that I need to tell them how.
I registered at that guys board, and Private Messaged him for request of the logs for the last 200 or 250 games.