There Is Something Very Wrong Here....
Rapier7
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
Skulks need a buff. A big, big buff.
I mean...this is ridiculous, they get slaughtered by the boatload. HMGs and shotties make it depressing to be a skulk. There is just no way to counter an all out marine offensive as skulks. When one player holds half the team's kills, you know something is wrong. Very wrong. The average player does not care about learning how to bunnyhop. The average player wants to have fun. And being killed in half a second before you even get a chance to do some damage is not fun.
Humans are naturally greedy. In Natural Selection, resource **** just prove this fact. Not many people want to gorge and drop an RT or a DC, they fade, lerk, or onos. The people who are less greedy enough to drop the hive, DCs, or RTs, they get stuck as a skulk for the remainder of the marine-biased game.
Subsequently, it turns down new players and makes the majority of the players not have much fun.
There are two solutions:
Make a bridge unit between the skulk and fade with a paltry resource cost (10, maybe?) that you can gestate to (time is the major factor here) or buff the skulk with either an armor boost or a speed boost. As we all know, cloaking skulks have a great chance of killing marines because they don't need to close the gap, so a speed boost would be good for the common player.
I mean...this is ridiculous, they get slaughtered by the boatload. HMGs and shotties make it depressing to be a skulk. There is just no way to counter an all out marine offensive as skulks. When one player holds half the team's kills, you know something is wrong. Very wrong. The average player does not care about learning how to bunnyhop. The average player wants to have fun. And being killed in half a second before you even get a chance to do some damage is not fun.
Humans are naturally greedy. In Natural Selection, resource **** just prove this fact. Not many people want to gorge and drop an RT or a DC, they fade, lerk, or onos. The people who are less greedy enough to drop the hive, DCs, or RTs, they get stuck as a skulk for the remainder of the marine-biased game.
Subsequently, it turns down new players and makes the majority of the players not have much fun.
There are two solutions:
Make a bridge unit between the skulk and fade with a paltry resource cost (10, maybe?) that you can gestate to (time is the major factor here) or buff the skulk with either an armor boost or a speed boost. As we all know, cloaking skulks have a great chance of killing marines because they don't need to close the gap, so a speed boost would be good for the common player.
Comments
But if that happens then early in the game skulks would rape. Thats why you have fade,onos. For later in the game.
regen overflows from hp to armor
and if chambers are unlocked... you have all the skulk buffs you need
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow is that sexy... And most useful on the Onos where a single bullet can stop the armor from getting regened.
Where did you see that?
Have faith, or be a marine. . . erm, good day.
Where did you see that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ground knockback will still be in place, but air bites will no longer send the marine flying across the room, its gonna take some getting used to to say the least.
regen overflows from hp to armor
and if chambers are unlocked... you have all the skulk buffs you need <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope that will happen.
imo: 1 extra bullet of hp, unchained chambers, free alien upgrades (not 2 res) = balanced, well, moreso anyway.
Lose knockback and buff skulk speed slightly, keeping the cap for bunnyhopping speed would alleviate the problem.
They can't shoot what they can't aim at. There's no way for a marine to turn around and take you out in one burst when you're leaping from behind. (we'll assume you have hive two before they have HMG's, at least).
They can't shoot if they can't pull the trigger. Kill them before they even TRY to kill you.
I agree. I went Onos, all the upgrades (Classic NS), and I run into a bunch of heavies. Devour one, and I tried to run. Before I could even turn around, I was dead - not even 2 seconds. There was about 4 HMG's shooting at me. I think that's a bit too quick... <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::tsa::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree. I went Onos, all the upgrades (Classic NS), and I run into a bunch of heavies. Devour one, and I tried to run. Before I could even turn around, I was dead - not even 2 seconds. There was about 4 HMG's shooting at me. I think that's a bit too quick... <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::tsa::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not.
4 HA = 60 Ressources
4 HMG = 60 Ressources
4 Welder = 20 Ressources
Total: 140 Ressources
That's without the ress cost for the upgrades ...
Now, why should a 75 - 81 Alien be able to take on 4 fully equiped HAs without any risk? Oh and by the way: If you had stomp it's your own fault you died, if you didn't it's your own fault for walking into 4 HAs
I agree. I went Onos, all the upgrades (Classic NS), and I run into a bunch of heavies. Devour one, and I tried to run. Before I could even turn around, I was dead - not even 2 seconds. There was about 4 HMG's shooting at me. I think that's a bit too quick... <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::tsa::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp, Devour, Stom, back off a bit, Stomp, turn around and live.
Some people really should realize that while an onos isnt an uber-killer, he can still be a major part of a aliens' win if played correctly. Running into 4 HAs or more in an unadvantaged area (somewhat open, decent distance) is not playing correctly.
Super Skulk (or a different better name): Costs 15 resources. 100/40 health, gains 10 armor with each level of carapace. Uses the exact same model as the skulk. Travels at 325 units/second. Hive 0 attack: Bite: Same as skulk bite. Hive 1 attack: Metabolize: Same as fade metabolize, only heals 15 health and 10% extra energy. Hive 2 attack: Leap: Slightly further than current skulk leap. Hive 3 attack: Xenocide: Skulk explodes for 250 damage instead of 200. Does double damage vs. structures.
There, a better skulk for extra resources. This skulk would be useful throughout the entire game. And with metabolize it wouldnt need upgrades like adrenaline, regeneration... It has 90 more health than a normal skulk at hive 1, 105 more health than a normal skulk at hive 2, and 120 more health than a skulk at hive 3.
Just a response to the first post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
They can't shoot what they can't aim at. There's no way for a marine to turn around and take you out in one burst when you're leaping from behind. (we'll assume you have hive two before they have HMG's, at least).
They can't shoot if they can't pull the trigger. Kill them before they even TRY to kill you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dark areas are *not* the skulk's friend against a semi-decent marine. Here's why:
1. Marines have flashlights. But you can't see where the flashlight is aimed. They can have it aimed right at you and you won't know it. If the marine is in a well-lit area, you may not even know the flashlight is on.
2. Marines have ranged weapons. If I even think I see something moving in a dark corner, I'll pop a couple of shots into it. Since splatter always shows up, I then know whether to continue shooting.
You obviously haven't played against some of the marines I've played with. I'm not sure if it's MT and the minimap that gives me away or the scream when I leap, but I've been caught full in the face by a marine shotgun blast plenty of times when leaping at his back.
The last one I agree with. It's also the most difficult to pull off as any experienced marine knows the common hiding spots.
No... If you were to make a super skulk like ceature it NEEDS leap as a hive 1 ability. The fade has blink, the lerk has flying... but the skulk doesn't have the leap. Its what takes a skulk from Cannon Fodder status and turns it into a front line fighter.
*Idea*:
Since armor gets boosted with number of hives, I wasthinking about a little speed increace with number of hives, maybe 5%, and also none for skulks if it's needed
just a slight increase in speed, nothing much significant....
OK with the one exception of Heavy Armour (poss JP) a skulk should be able to take down any marine, HMG or no HMG.
See a skulk bite at 0 range is just as deadly as the HMG at 0 range.
So theres the problem, range. The trick to playing with skulk is to hide and ambush, therefore closing the distance everytime. Even if its simply wait round the corner, youve still closed that distance.
First off, make sure he doesnt hear you get to you ambush spot, or he will be wary and look out for you. Second, always be ready and <b>expect</b> him to look your way, you gotta move quickly when you do.
Now that your nice and close, your deadly and certainly alot better off then running at him from 20 metres down a corridor.
The only times when this starts to become difficult is when marines research MT (/me hates MT <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Grrrrr), which means you'll have to sit in your spot for a long time so you dont show up on MT. This ends up wasting time and isnt really worth it.
And of course when you have to rush that PG/TF/outpost, but then if you were all ambushing properly you wouldnt have to do that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
People usd to play better at skulk in 1.04 IMO, because aliens was much harder.
4 HMG = 60 Ressources
4 Welder = 20 Ressources
Total: 140 Ressources
That's without the ress cost for the upgrades ...
Now, why should a 75 - 81 Alien be able to take on 4 fully equiped HAs without any risk? Oh and by the way: If you had stomp it's your own fault you died, if you didn't it's your own fault for walking into 4 HAs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, you MUST know that the res system for ALIENS and MARINES are very much different.
140 res to the marines means that the commander just has to hoard the resources for like, 2 minutes (without spending anything) on a few RTs.
on the flipside, 75-81 res to AN ALIEN ONOS, usually means a whole game of RFK and res whoring, which is not exactly very "2-minute"-ish.
hence it's not fair what takes a few minutes to suit up can beatdown what takes a whole game to save up for so easily. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
4 HMG = 60 Ressources
4 Welder = 20 Ressources
Total: 140 Ressources
That's without the ress cost for the upgrades ...
Now, why should a 75 - 81 Alien be able to take on 4 fully equiped HAs without any risk? Oh and by the way: If you had stomp it's your own fault you died, if you didn't it's your own fault for walking into 4 HAs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, you MUST know that the res system for ALIENS and MARINES are very much different.
140 res to the marines means that the commander just has to hoard the resources for like, 2 minutes (without spending anything) on a few RTs.
on the flipside, 75-81 res to AN ALIEN ONOS, usually means a whole game of RFK and res whoring, which is not exactly very "2-minute"-ish.
hence it's not fair what takes a few minutes to suit up can beatdown what takes a whole game to save up for so easily. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but dont forget that the commander also has to purchase buildings and research upgrades (not to mention buildings needed for buildings), that takes a fair amount of time.
140 res to the marines means that the commander just has to hoard the resources for like, 2 minutes (without spending anything) on a few RTs.
on the flipside, 75-81 res to AN ALIEN ONOS, usually means a whole game of RFK and res whoring, which is not exactly very "2-minute"-ish.
hence it's not fair what takes a few minutes to suit up can beatdown what takes a whole game to save up for so easily. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm quite aware of the different ressource system, thanks though. But YOU must know that a commander can't just sit on his **** for 2 minutes doing nothing. He has to research, build rts and other buildings and drop a welder or a shotgun here and there. Now add in the cost of the prototype lab (35 I believe?) and the cost for the HA upgrade (40) and you have 215 ress in total. Plus you won't see HAs with HMG before the 6 - 8 minute mark if a commander goes for HA, at which you either have killed enough as a fade to go onos, or saved enough as a skulk (Unlikely in a competitive match though).
So yes, I still stick to my first post, saying that a) the Onos was dumb and b) he shouldn't be able to take on 4 HAs alone.
Come to think of it, it might be nice to see the HA having a fatal drawback as well. Something like limited turning speed due to the added weight. This would allow a lone HA to be easily flanked and bitten from behind to death.
Increasing the effectiveness of the skulk however is probably a bad idea. Especially with talks of unchained chambers being tried out for a while the early game skulk will still be a total badass and further buffs would totally destroy the viability of a decent early game for the marines.
Basically the ideal here (read: MY ideal) is to have every unit and equipment combo have its strengths and weaknesses thus making a more varied group of units and equipment more effective than just mass teching to some uber unit and letting everyone be one of those.
1. Marines have flashlights. But you can't see where the flashlight is aimed. They can have it aimed right at you and you won't know it. If the marine is in a well-lit area, you may not even know the flashlight is on.
2. Marines have ranged weapons. If I even think I see something moving in a dark corner, I'll pop a couple of shots into it. Since splatter always shows up, I then know whether to continue shooting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mappers have included a HUGE amount of cover, hiding spots, supports, rafters, EVERYTHING you can think of that a skulk can hide behind. Hide above or below vision. Hide out of the line of sight completely (parasite them, retreat into the vent, wait until they pass). Think Cargo in ns_tanith for example. You have crates, rafters, the big thing in the fusion corner (the coolant pool maybe?), the ceiling height change, etc. There's no way they can check every corner.
But lets wait till next update where there is no more knockback.
Where did you see that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
because it's a bug.
The ground knockback is a joke, half the time you clip on the skulk biting you and don't go anywhere, I doubt THAT will be fixed, and even when it works, it never gets you far enough away to actually help you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> because it's a bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So's bunnyhopping.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This actually makes sense considering the use for these higher level guns is aimed moreso at taking out the higher evolutions of aliens and the alien structures. It'd be nice if there was actually a drawback to getting a bigger gun (ie. you miss the small stuff a whole lot more).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yay! Follow the bouncing fade with your crappy, innaccurate gun! WHEEEEEEEEEEE!
Secondly I think what he means by it's a bug is
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_view_page.php?bug_id=0000360' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_vi...?bug_id=0000360</a>
and
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_view_page.php?bug_id=0000004' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_vi...?bug_id=0000004</a>
Which are both fixed for beta 5
So don't jump when you get close to a skulk, stand there like an idiot and hope for some knockback.