The "common Sense" Thing To Do
Deranged
Join Date: 2004-04-07 Member: 27774Members
Join Date: 2004-04-07 Member: 27774Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I have none</div> Well a quick introduction to my question. I played t1/t2 competively and I know that certain games, especially team based games there are things that you do that are common sense, eg kill the capper, or shoot the skulk running at you etc. My question is what exactly are the common sense things to do in NS. Those that make sense to you after you'lve played for a while, myself I've only played for about 3 months and I have a grasp of most of the ideas of ns.
However my problem comes down to sometimes I do the wrong thing, let me give you an example, it was a ns game, myself and 2 other skulks decided to rush marine spawn, it was undefended, I went for the ips, they went for the arms lab. Afterwards they called me a newb for not helping them take down the arms lab first.
I have plenty of other examples, but i hope you understand my question, which is what exactly do you do in certain situations that are the common sense thing to do in NS.
Eg shoot the gorge or the oc, bite the pg or the turret factory, etc.
However my problem comes down to sometimes I do the wrong thing, let me give you an example, it was a ns game, myself and 2 other skulks decided to rush marine spawn, it was undefended, I went for the ips, they went for the arms lab. Afterwards they called me a newb for not helping them take down the arms lab first.
I have plenty of other examples, but i hope you understand my question, which is what exactly do you do in certain situations that are the common sense thing to do in NS.
Eg shoot the gorge or the oc, bite the pg or the turret factory, etc.
Comments
PG > TF
IP > CC
If there are DCs around an RT, destroy the DCs before attacking the RT.
Skulk > Onos (if your base is being attacked by an Onos and Skulks, try to kill the Skulks, you have more of a chance to actually kill them.)
If you are in a hive, alone, DON'T ATTACK THE HIVE RIGHT AWAY. Go outside the hive and ask for a phase gate.
If you know an attack is coming means of supporting and reinforcing that attack must go down first, which means Arms lab then phasegate should go down first. Upgrades do not take effect without an armslab, so an attack would be much easier to counter without an armslab, and without reinforcements, the attack is cut off at its roots.
If there is no immediate danger, then your absolute priority first is an Advanced Armory. Upgrading an armory takes very long, and taking it down will cripple them from higher tech. You can tell if an Armory is upgraded if the 4 'pillars' on the bottom are jutted out or not. If they are out, its Advanced, if not, then its Regular. Don't bother with a regular armory.
While crippling marine tech is important, an observatory is very fragile and can be destroyed very easily. Take this down next to potentially extend your stay (lack of distress beacon), prevent the constructions of additional phasegates, and disabling motion tracking. If you have a cloaking trait, it should be put to full use now.
The next part is up for debate.
A Protolab, if there is one, should go down next. Without an Advanced Armory, construction of a new one is impossible. This will completely cripple them from jetpacks and heavies for several minutes. However, a protolab is very strong and will take much longer to take down.
However, an arms lab, the source of their upgrades, almost as fragile as an observatory, and will go down very quickly.
Whichever one you take down will depend on your gut feeling and the situation. If you know they have loads of res, then taking down the protolab would probably be a better choice. After you take down one, the other should be the next priority.
Phasegate is next.
If nothing is left but ips and armory (unupgraded, otherwise you would've killed it first), work on the armory while periodically skittling back to the IPs to kill the unupgraded marines this will prevent the comm from dropping shotguns which would end your fun prematurely. After the armory, all that should be left is the ips.
Of course, you'd be lucky if you could take down the whole marine base without the anyone noticing. Pay no attention to spawning marines unless they get a little too close, especially if you're working on an Advanced Armory. The marines can have a million res nodes, but they can't speed up the time it takes to upgrade an armory.
what about say your gorging, your building hive comes under attack I'm assuming finish what your doing then get over to the hive?
any other common sense things a newb like me should think of while playing <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
thanks for your help by the way
Just be wary if you are Gorge, as when a hive goes under attack (built or unbuilt) there will at least three or more Marines attacking. And due to the relative fragility of the Gorge in a firefight and its limited role in combat, it's best to let other, beefier lifeforms begin the counterassault, then cautiously enter when a calm of sorts to provide relief and support.
Also remember that a Movement Chamber will always take you to a hive under attack, so it's a good idea to have one in each hive; it doesn't hurt to have some field MCs either, as their adrenaline-recovering properties are sometimes overlooked.
As for what Lito has posted for breaking down a Marine base, he hit the nail on the head. As for the Prototype lab, it's mostly safe to leave it alone until other advanced buildings are taken down (i.e., Advanced Armory, Arms Lab, Phasegate, etc.); most commanders won't bother to drop equipment from the Prototype lab during an assault.
<b><i>Always Always Always Always Always Always</i></b> recycle an unbuilt res node
-When attacking a Marine res node, commanders may often times panic and recycle it before you finish destroying it. If/when this happens, stop attacking the RT and move on. Chances are, you won't be able to to destroy it in time, and the commander will have been reimbursed with some resources and you'll have only wasted time. However, if you have at least one other friend with you, your chances of destroying it in time greatly increase.
-Lito has a point about built and unbuilt RTs. An RT that has been operational for a while has most certainly collected more than its purchase price, and will continue to collect when under attack. An unbuilt RT, however, didn't yet have the oppourtunity to collect resources.
To kill a marine base (my order -- dont argue with me)
PG
OBSV
IP
ARMS
PROTO
ARMORY
Choosing what to attack is never common sense. It is learned, especially after playing both sides several times and noting what the other side does that <i>really</i> irritates. That said, losing IPs is an annoyance, but very rarely fatal. And cheap enough to replace. If the commander has placed an arms lab that early, however, he or she no doubt has also began upgrading. Destroying the arms lab would cost those meat-pops not only the cost of the building itself, but the cost of the upgrade, as well.
On a similar note, the best tactic I have ever seen while human used against the Kharaa was a team of aliens who went almost all gorge right away, dropped three movement chambers, loaded up on adrenaline, and stopped into our base. Our weak armor and LMGs was no match for their heal spray. While we spawned in one by one, two skulks casually stomped out our base.
-Ryan!
I had a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability
to use language that makes him the dominant species on the
planet. That may be. But I think there's one other thing that
separates us from animals. We aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners.
-- Jeff Stilson
Did you ever walk in a room and forget why you walked in? I
think that's how dogs spend their lives.
-- Sue Murphy
If you know an attack is coming means of supporting and reinforcing that attack must go down first, which means Arms lab then phasegate should go down first. Upgrades do not take effect without an armslab, so an attack would be much easier to counter without an armslab, and without reinforcements, the attack is cut off at its roots.
If there is no immediate danger, then your absolute priority first is an Advanced Armory. Upgrading an armory takes very long, and taking it down will cripple them from higher tech. You can tell if an Armory is upgraded if the 4 'pillars' on the bottom are jutted out or not. If they are out, its Advanced, if not, then its Regular. Don't bother with a regular armory.
While crippling marine tech is important, an observatory is very fragile and can be destroyed very easily. Take this down next to potentially extend your stay (lack of distress beacon), prevent the constructions of additional phasegates, and disabling motion tracking. If you have a cloaking trait, it should be put to full use now.
The next part is up for debate.
A Protolab, if there is one, should go down next. Without an Advanced Armory, construction of a new one is impossible. This will completely cripple them from jetpacks and heavies for several minutes. However, a protolab is very strong and will take much longer to take down.
However, an arms lab, the source of their upgrades, almost as fragile as an observatory, and will go down very quickly.
Whichever one you take down will depend on your gut feeling and the situation. If you know they have loads of res, then taking down the protolab would probably be a better choice. After you take down one, the other should be the next priority.
Phasegate is next.
If nothing is left but ips and armory (unupgraded, otherwise you would've killed it first), work on the armory while periodically skittling back to the IPs to kill the unupgraded marines this will prevent the comm from dropping shotguns which would end your fun prematurely. After the armory, all that should be left is the ips.
Of course, you'd be lucky if you could take down the whole marine base without the anyone noticing. Pay no attention to spawning marines unless they get a little too close, especially if you're working on an Advanced Armory. The marines can have a million res nodes, but they can't speed up the time it takes to upgrade an armory. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this guide, except most people I know tend to attack the OBSERVATORY first since it can summon the entire marine team at the base. Unless they have relocated or their are multiple observatories (few games), then OBS must go down first.
2. Phase Gate
3. Arms Lab
4. Infantry Portal to stop reinforcements
5. Advanced Armory
6. Proto Lab
The plan here is to shut down reinforcements, then weaken the returning marines, then disabling advanced weapon capabilities. My variation is if you have few teammates or if you are a solo Onos or Fade in a lone marine base. The first part is a short term disadvantage, while taking down the Arms Lab or an Advanced Armory will yield longer results.
Overall, the Arms Lab and the Advanced Armory are THE most important structures to be destroyed. The question is, how much time will you have to take them down?
If the marines have only one IP and some of them are dead they'll continously spawn. Kill the IP and you won't be annoyed, plus, it's easy to kill a spawning marine.
Then the Obs to stop the beacon.
Then IP
Then whatever you want since at this point you already won.
I know technically you should drop 3 at a time, but on some pub's that just isn't always teh case and someone has to dedicate there res to helping the team <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, before attacking things check if they are doing anything (wobbling) e.g. if an arms lab is researching lvl 3 guns and you kill it thats 40 res gone and its a long upgrade to lvl 3. Or the obs is researching mt <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You've already shown yourself to be a far more considerate teamplayer than most pubbers. Thank you. The resource tower should go down first, no question. The more RTs you can control, the more your team benefits in the long run, and the faster you can get a resource tower <i>and</i> an upgrade chamber.
Also, as far as first strikes go, something did occur to me. If you see an observatory upon first rushing into the marine spawn, take that first. If you have a microphone, call your teammates to do the same. If it was vibrating when you manage to destroy it, celebrate upon your respawn. You managed to set the marine team back extremely far extremely early in the game.
Or, barring that, follow your teammates. Every one of you skulks should be working on the same building in that initial rush.
-Ryan!
"If the colleges were better, if they really had it, you would need to get
the police at the gates to keep order in the inrushing multitude. See in
college how we thwart the natural love of learning by leaving the natural
method of teaching what each wishes to learn, and insisting that you shall
learn what you have no taste or capacity for. The college, which should
be a place of delightful labor, is made odious and unhealthy, and the
young men are tempted to frivolous amusements to rally their jaded spirits.
I would have the studies elective. Scholarship is to be created not
by compulsion, but by awakening a pure interest in knowledge. The wise
instructor accomplishes this by opening to his pupils precisely the
attractions the study has for himself. The marking is a system for schools,
not for the college; for boys, not for men; and it is an ungracious work to
put on a professor."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
-If the marines have lots of res and HMGs it's a good sign to take down the Armoury. Bye Bye heavy weapons for a couple of minutes, then for the PG or if none, go for the obs. Then they cannot beacon to save the rest of their base. If their comm is stupid enough to get out and die, you have the game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-If the marines are doing a tech rush with wep/armour upgrades and no adv. armoury go for the Arms Lab first, then the same as before, PG or Obs then the rest.
It really depends on what the marines main advantage over you is. If it's heavy weapons/armour, go for the arms lab. If it's HA/JP go for the Armoury first, and finally if its their motion tracking, phasing ability, go for the obs!
I slightly disagree. No matter what the situation, arms lab should be before obs for these reasons:
It is more likely to be upgrading, so will loose hte res for that upgrade.
It costs more to replace.
It criples team far more than the obs.
It takes about the same time to destroy, if only a little longer.
Asside from that, your points on the 2 different tech sitiuations are sensible and well thought out.
pg>ip>armory>proto>arms>obs etc etc
if u wanna be snearky and send in a 4 man onos rush withouth marines even knowing, then go fade and take down ob's... now onos can walk in cloaked and devour any armory humping ha/jp and massicare anyone else... no base has survived this btw, no matter how much of a turret farm is in front, if u get ob's down u can just walk right into the weak spot...
When I'm done with the observatory, I always aim for the advanced armory before the proto since the proto can be rebuilded and no need for research to get their JP/HA again. And I think the advanced armory is also lower on health.
If you get the advanced armory down, you will prevent the marines from getting HMG and GL for 1:30 - 2:00 minutes.
If I manage to get the advanced armory down, Then I try EVERYTHING to get the proto lab down, If I manage this, the marines will have to use low tech weapons in quite a long time and no HAs or JPs.
This tactic will only work on public game since the marines is not listening so much on the commander, the marines do not have so much time before they have to use PG to base because it will only take about 20-25 seconds for a skulk to destroy these buildings because of it's low health. Also these buildings is the most expensive.
- Armory (if upgraded/upgrading)
- Protolab (if present)
- Arms lab
- Observatory
- Phasegate
- IP
I normally take out a tf between those, i wont if we're all advanced classes that can take some damage, but i will if we have a few skulks.
Like i said: "I <b>TEND</b> to use this order" --> depends on the battlefield situation and what upgrades are going on, described as "wobbling" in the above posts <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just my 2 cents
Greetz, Rover
PS: my msn (red_88_rover@hotmail.com) is always available for u 2 ask ur questions <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Most have been said. You generally just *know* what you should do, or else find out the hard way what not to do.
>Sneaking into hive without firing on structures, then building sieges. (Partially construct all of them, then finish them off all at once. That way aliens cant react until it's too late. Of course, this will not happen in a league game where there's always somone watching the hives)
>At start of game, aim to leave ms within 20 seconds. Generally the newer players build whilst more experienced players will rt & skulk hunt. If the comm has stated a relocate, it is advisable to *all* go to that spot. A failed base build does not happen, but a failed relocate could be devastating.
>Hmm. Dont reload LMG in a skulk battle, use pistol, then knife. Get a custom knife model to make it look more scary; you will use it more.
> COMMUNICATE! Keep telling the team what you are doing if the comm has not set a specific waypoint. Keep an eye on the overview map for what other ppl are doing.
>Remember MT shows aliens as red dots on HUD and overview; watch for ambushes for yourself and others. Communicate alien activity to the less observant. If there's a red dot in a hive you have just build an rt/pg in, warn people.
>Bah. There's more, but it's late and I am babbling.
a) it's WEAK, takes many fewer bites than say a tf or armoury
b) it eliminates the only way in the entire game either team can get back to base in a group as well as summon dead comrades..
Then it depends, If your team is taking out marines, then perhaps the IP or the arms lab.
If they have upgraded weapons an attack against their armoury can leave them devastated because they not only have to rebuild the armoury but they have to wait for it to upgrade to regain those high level weapons.
I've seen many games where the arms lab is killed but the marines hadn't gotten any upgrades yet, (they were holding off the aliens without them.) which to me is a waste...
the one no-one here has mentioned (that I saw) was Marine RT... it costs 15, takes 1 minute to recoup that cost and combined with lack of other nodes can cripple the entire marine upgrade path.
When you are attacking a base the thing to remember is you probably won't get the entire base down... You need to attack the areas that will cripple the marines the most and cost them the most in terms of time/resources to rebuild.
However, as you can see from the responses there are no right answers to this question, the only thing I can say to your example is you probably should help your team mates because they expect to die, they are working together to set back the marines and by attacking the IP you weren't assisting in contributing to that goal (taking down the arms lab)....
I've seen many games where the arms lab is killed but the marines hadn't gotten any upgrades yet, (they were holding off the aliens without them.) which to me is a waste...
the one no-one here has mentioned (that I saw) was Marine RT... it costs 15, takes 1 minute to recoup that cost and combined with lack of other nodes can cripple the entire marine upgrade path.
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Sorry, you dont consider 45 res loss a waste, and instead think that loosing an rt would be more cripling? And an rt that's easy to replace?
:|
I do agree that obs is quick, but even those precious seconds may be better spent on arms lab. If the marines do beacon, that's 15 res anyway.
:|
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Since in all MS RT's are a little ways away, they offer you much better cover than the arms lab which takes no time in general for marines to get to and offer you no real good cover against them. (I've jumped around an RT and killed marines 100's of times, can't do that really with even a moderately placed Arms lab.
Also rt costs them not only the 15 to replace it, but continued res for every 4 seconds it's down..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do agree that obs is quick, but even those precious seconds may be better spent on arms lab. If the marines do beacon, that's 15 res anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The key to a base rush is to take out what you can.. Chomping on an arms lab against any comm worth his salt will not result in your taking it down, it will result in 1 marine killing you and then welding the Arms lab. So your attack was wasted.
Even if there is 3 of you, a fast beacon means 6+ marines respawning, picking you off, and then welding the object in question.
Obs goes down so fast that often the comm can only get 1 base under attack message before it's gone. And then the other objects are much more likely to be able to be killed due to the slowness of marines moving back to base.
Beacon is the worst thing for a base rush hence why the obs must go down first.
6 guys with lvl 0 weapons will kill 3 skulks much faster than 1 guy with lvl3 weapons.
To kill a marine base (my order -- dont argue with me)
PG
OBSV
IP
ARMS
PROTO
ARMORY<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lito
In any marine base takedown, you must consider the order in which you destroy buildings. Knowing this order is extremely important and can and will turn the tide in your favor if you do it right.
If you know an attack is coming means of supporting and reinforcing that attack must go down first, which means Arms lab then phasegate should go down first. Upgrades do not take effect without an armslab, so an attack would be much easier to counter without an armslab, and without reinforcements, the attack is cut off at its roots.
If there is no immediate danger, then your absolute priority first is an Advanced Armory. Upgrading an armory takes very long, and taking it down will cripple them from higher tech. You can tell if an Armory is upgraded if the 4 'pillars' on the bottom are jutted out or not. If they are out, its Advanced, if not, then its Regular. Don't bother with a regular armory.
While crippling marine tech is important, an observatory is very fragile and can be destroyed very easily. Take this down next to potentially extend your stay (lack of distress beacon), prevent the constructions of additional phasegates, and disabling motion tracking. If you have a cloaking trait, it should be put to full use now.
The next part is up for debate.
A Protolab, if there is one, should go down next. Without an Advanced Armory, construction of a new one is impossible. This will completely cripple them from jetpacks and heavies for several minutes. However, a protolab is very strong and will take much longer to take down.
However, an arms lab, the source of their upgrades, almost as fragile as an observatory, and will go down very quickly.
Whichever one you take down will depend on your gut feeling and the situation. If you know they have loads of res, then taking down the protolab would probably be a better choice. After you take down one, the other should be the next priority.
Phasegate is next.
If nothing is left but ips and armory (unupgraded, otherwise you would've killed it first), work on the armory while periodically skittling back to the IPs to kill the unupgraded marines this will prevent the comm from dropping shotguns which would end your fun prematurely. After the armory, all that should be left is the ips.
Of course, you'd be lucky if you could take down the whole marine base without the anyone noticing. Pay no attention to spawning marines unless they get a little too close, especially if you're working on an Advanced Armory. The marines can have a million res nodes, but they can't speed up the time it takes to upgrade an armory.
Unbuilt hives are relatively weak, and do not regenerate. If it is under attack drop whatever you're doing and get over there unless you're assaulting the marine base.
Never Never Never Never Never Never recycle a built res node
Always Always Always Always Always Always recycle an unbuilt res node
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Very well said guys <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ahh i guess i should say well said Lito
though my saying for a MS would be armory first cause thats somthing that takes 3 mins to get back and im usually fade so if they beacon or come back ill just blink out then id hit PG obs Arms ip "other"
Please always reload your lmg in battle. Reloading the pistol is questionable, since it takes longer, is harder to hit with, and does less damage to boot. Only knife if you feel like you've done enough damage to kill them in one hit (or, perhaps, if you're totally out of ammo). Otherwise you're just going to frustrate your comm.
Reload. Reload. Always reload by default. If you figure you can't finish in time you can always switch weapons in the middle of the animation with no problem.
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/structures_observatory.html' target='_blank'>Obsevatory</a>. 1,000 hit points.
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/structures_armslab.html' target='_blank'>Arms Lab</a>. 2,200 hit points.
More than twice as long to take down.
-Ryan!
"Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his
facts."
-- Bernard M. Baruch
"What is defeat? Nothing but education, nothing but the first step to something better."
-- Wendell Phillips