<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 10 2004, 10:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 10 2004, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-JHunz+Jul 10 2004, 05:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JHunz @ Jul 10 2004, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, about a week ago a guy posted a thread containing a script that let him exploit the no-energy no-sound leap bug. I'm going to go with that one.
[Edit] At least he claimed it did, I didn't try it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That script is abusive, yes, but the reason it works is due to a bug in the client to server weapon switching, as far as I know it. The bug busters have been on it for a long time now and hopefully it will be fixed in beta 5 by simply fixing the way you change your weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to mention it's extremely inconsistant, from what I remember. I believe Urd took the script and tested it, and it worked 1/100 times or something similar. All the other times you'd go nowhere and lose adrenaline.
Cheesy: Forlorn is getting "upset" because he believes this is going to drive an even bigger wedge into the divide between the community. I'm not a clanner, I don't see myself becoming one any time soon, but I can easily see it. High end clanners/pro scripters against the anti scripters, many of whom are Ignorant of scripting and the effects it has, like saying clanners are only so good because they script (regardless of the fact they may just be SKILLED), people vehemently crusading against scripting with little knowledge about them aside from what they've heard about them...You can't really deny this, read any script topic that's ever come up. It's like the CS community all over again, only this time blaming scripts (which aren't necessarily bad) instead of "hacks" (which obviously are), which in turn makes it WORSE <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Put it this way - the fact that Forlorn (and others like him) fight so hard to keep scripts in the game show that they have some inherent value to them. If you still tell us that they don't make the game easier for you, I'll respond by asking "then why do you still use them if they don't make the game easier?"
I personally am against all scripts, for example the pistol is designed to be semi-automatic not fully-automatic and the ability to just hit the button once instead of 5 times helps aiming putting those who are not aware of the scripts at a disadvantage. IE affecting the learning curve.
I know I will be enabling script blocking, as many have asked for on our server.
Leveling the playing field for players to make the game more fun for everyone is more important than keeping a few happy.
I do agree that giving server ops the ability to choose is the best idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-waller+Jul 12 2004, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller @ Jul 12 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Want to level the playing field? give everyone 100fps it makes more of a difference then scripts. trust me <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Somethings you can do and some you cant.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dubbilex+Jul 12 2004, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jul 12 2004, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Put it this way - the fact that Forlorn (and others like him) fight so hard to keep scripts in the game show that they have some inherent value to them. If you still tell us that they don't make the game easier for you, I'll respond by asking "then why do you still use them if they don't make the game easier?"
Simple. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This question has been answered 100 times already, but here it is again:
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>It is uttlerly a pointless witchhunt to remove scripts when there exists other means to acheive the same effects such as the script.</span>
Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie. However, the reason they give advantages is <a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=1055' target='_blank'>because the game allows it.</a> Really, I can name two ways off the top of my head to repicate most of the scripts I use with just keyboard commands and macro's. Hell, you don't even need macro's, macro's are there just in case you are really lazy.
The problem does not exist with the scripts. Banning scripts because it abuses a few elements of the game is, simply put, retarded. It completely ignores that scripts do not allow you to abuse it, it is just the most popular method of abusing the said game elements.
Why is this so incredibly difficult to understand? I think this is the 5th time I've explained it in this thread.
Finally, my challenge still stands:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intrestly enough, still yet anyone has proven that there exists an exploitable or unfair script that can't be replicated through other means.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which I bet my vet icon that no one can name one. Not that it's worth anything too much, but it just shows how super confidant I am.
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Jul 12 2004, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Jul 12 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-waller+Jul 12 2004, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller @ Jul 12 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Want to level the playing field? give everyone 100fps it makes more of a difference then scripts. trust me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Somethings you can do and some you cant.
Think realisticly! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And you are naive enough to believe that eliminating scripts will lessen the gap between good and bad players? Please, good players will still own regardless and bad ones aren't going to suck any less. Sorry to be blunt but you said to think realistically.
I believe XP-Cagey went through the patient process of explaining to you a script which uses commands at speeds of a ms to utilise an exploit deep in the engine code, without giving away how to do the script himself. He blatantly stated that this could not be done with a keyboard, etc, because the commands are just put in too fast. He's a developer, he would no doubt know what he is talking about. I don't know if you somehow forgot what he said, or have just chosen to ignore it, or for some reason (God knows why) have chosen to not believe what he says. I'll take his word for it, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> # I have an exploit counterexample (that I'm not about to publish) requiring four sequenced commands in a single frame -- precision that can't be duplicated by a human. Sure, you can mash four *distinct* commands (this is not like +attack;-attack four times) at the same time, but you can't press and release one key at a time at a steady rate of 1 millisecond per action--for those who took typing, that'd be a burst rate of 1000 5-letter words per minute using perfectly flat timing without any errors . I hope that my reputation for letting people into the loop when possible and knowing what I talk about will be enough for you to take my word that exploits do exist that require this sort of timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless I'm somehow misreading your challenge or what he is saying (Which honestly I doubt I am), then that would pretty much fulfill your request.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you are naive enough to believe that eliminating scripts will lessen the gap between good and bad players? Please, good players will still own regardless and bad ones aren't going to suck any less. Sorry to be blunt but you said to think realistically.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You come off hypocritical: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like your thinking of the Nsplayers here. I have seen players of equal skill reach their max while one chooses not to script and the the other does. Guess what the scripter is now better.
Cagey does have an example of how scripting can do things you can't, but he wont give it out for obvious reasons.
Vet icon plz. lol
Scripts are bad, use your "skills" and get up off the couch and change the channel you lazy bumbs. J/K
<b><u>Here is a great example: I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right? NO</u></b>
Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.
ALL THESE ARGUEMENTS FALL ON THE SAME LEVEL.
Forlon, I do believe the fact that scripts can be done otherwise but doing this should keep most of the abusers out for a while. You on the other hand people like you have the ablities to do it other ways. But with attitudes like this we wouldnt have even created Cheating-Death, VAC, OGC bocks and the like.
<!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+Jul 11 2004, 03:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Jul 11 2004, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the main purpose is to block exploitative scripts, then why not block it on all servers?
It seems kind of silly to allow the server admins to decide whether or not the players can exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the same reason that custom models (which also open the door to exploits) are optional and controlled by a server variable -- both custom models and scripting add flexibility and value to the game (did I mention I'm normally pro-script? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->) while also adding a new class of potential problems.
If both a server admin and a group of players want to play with custom models and are willing to risk model based cheats, the game doesn't force them to play without a feature. If an admin is concerned about the fact that super bright skins or porcupine models can give players an unfair advantage, the game gives them the ability to block that from happening.
The goal is to let people choose between cool features and security--whether the benefits outweigh the risk remains a personal choice.
In response to some of the other feedback my last post received, I've already said that I'm not going to talk in circles--the problem exists; either take my word for it or don't. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 12 2004, 06:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 12 2004, 06:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And you are naive enough to believe that eliminating scripts will lessen the gap between good and bad players? Please, good players will still own regardless and bad ones aren't going to suck any less. Sorry to be blunt but you said to think realistically. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If this is really the case, why are you in such a panic about this change.
It's really really amazing that you expect people not to notice the panic and horror in the tone of everything you write on this subject.
It's like you think people can't tell you're **** your pants about the fact that you might not be able to script in ns anymore..
If there really is no gap to lessen, why do you need to be blunt and respond to everything people post on this subject, violently advocating scripts, regardless of the lack of any benifit(as you say.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you are naive enough to believe that eliminating scripts will lessen the gap between good and bad players? Please, good players will still own regardless and bad ones aren't going to suck any less. Sorry to be blunt but you said to think realistically.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You come off hypocritical: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like your thinking of the Nsplayers here. I have seen players of equal skill reach their max while one chooses not to script and the the other does. Guess what the scripter is now better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The advantage scripts give are that they further streamline your cofiguration to how YOU want it. It's like saying that I should be instabanned for having a more intuitive key setup for myself than someone of equal skill. Yes, even key configuration means the difference between winning and losing. OMG BANT
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts are bad, use your "skills" and get up off the couch and change the channel you lazy bumbs. J/K<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Remote controls exist for a reason: so you DON'T need to get up. Going the extra yard so you do thinks the old way? Point being where? It's like saying to stop being lazy and write stuff with a pen and paper instead of using a computer. Also highly irrelevant, joke or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b><u>Here is a great example: I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right? NO</u></b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terrible analogy. Did you explain WHAT you downloaded to "make it easier"? No. Not to mention there IS nothing you can download to "make it easier", unless you download a pre written essay, which would be CHEATING, which is the equivalent to AIMBOTTING, not scripting.
If you're talking about downloading a page to use as reference...do tell why that's bad. Last I checked, making references to existing data is kind of what you do in essays. Make a point, reference something to corroborate with what you say, so on and so forth.
Oh, and lo and behold you compare scripting to OGCs. Why didn't I see that coming? THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nowhere did anybody say scripting made things easier. If you don't know how to do things, then they're as worthless as taking a soccer ball to a hockey game. All scripts do is make things work HOW YOU WANT THEM. They are NOT a substitute for anything.
It's really really amazing that you expect people not to notice the panic and horror in the tone of everything you write on this subject.
...
If there really is no gap to lessen, why do you need to be blunt and respond to everything people post on this subject, violently advocating scripts, regardless of the lack of any benifit(as you say.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't know Forlorn too well. He's ALWAYS this blunt. He's a script user, of COURSE he's going to advocate the continued use of them. But at least he has knowledge of how scripts work, unlike a large majority of the anti script side.
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+Jul 13 2004, 12:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ Jul 13 2004, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you are naive enough to believe that eliminating scripts will lessen the gap between good and bad players? Please, good players will still own regardless and bad ones aren't going to suck any less. Sorry to be blunt but you said to think realistically.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You come off hypocritical: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like your thinking of the Nsplayers here. I have seen players of equal skill reach their max while one chooses not to script and the the other does. Guess what the scripter is now better.
Cagey does have an example of how scripting can do things you can't, but he wont give it out for obvious reasons.
Vet icon plz. lol
Scripts are bad, use your "skills" and get up off the couch and change the channel you lazy bumbs. J/K
<b><u>Here is a great example: I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right? NO</u></b>
Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.
ALL THESE ARGUEMENTS FALL ON THE SAME LEVEL.
Forlon, I do believe the fact that scripts can be done otherwise but doing this should keep most of the abusers out for a while. You on the other hand people like you have the ablities to do it other ways. But with attitudes like this we wouldnt have even created Cheating-Death, VAC, OGC bocks and the like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If this is really the case, why are you in such a panic about this change.
It's really really amazing that you expect people not to notice the panic and horror in the tone of everything you write on this subject.
It's like you think people can't tell you're **** your pants about the fact that you might not be able to script in ns anymore..
If there really is no gap to lessen, why do you need to be blunt and respond to everything people post on this subject, violently advocating scripts, regardless of the lack of any benifit(as you say.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine we could 'rate' skill.
Look, if a good clanner has a skill level of 1000 normally, then scripts raise his skill level to 1050 because of scripts. Big difference. And again, he is raising his skill level through the use of streamlining his controls. He doesn't HAVE to use scripts. He can use OTHER METHODS.
And your typical pub newbie would be rated 200 on this scale. While obviously people cannot be rated in numbers this sense all the time, it works well enough as an example here.
You remove scripts, and it lowers the clanners skill level to 1000 temporarly while he figures out how to use other methods besides scripts, and meanwhile your bad player is still at 200. Once the clanner figures out how to get around not having scripts of any kind he will go back up to 1050. Gj blocking those scripts in "It evens things out department."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is a great example: I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right? NO
Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.
ALL THESE ARGUEMENTS FALL ON THE SAME LEVEL. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These arguemnts don't fall on the same level, if you think it does you are ignoring severity of these situations involved with each, and if you are just gonna ignore stuff then I hope you don't mind me calling you ignorant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the same reason that custom models (which also open the door to exploits) are optional and controlled by a server variable -- both custom models and scripting add flexibility and value to the game (did I mention I'm normally pro-script? ) while also adding a new class of potential problems.
If both a server admin and a group of players want to play with custom models and are willing to risk model based cheats, the game doesn't force them to play without a feature. If an admin is concerned about the fact that super bright skins or porcupine models can give players an unfair advantage, the game gives them the ability to block that from happening.
The goal is to let people choose between cool features and security--whether the benefits outweigh the risk remains a personal choice.
In response to some of the other feedback my last post received, I've already said that I'm not going to talk in circles--the problem exists; either take my word for it or don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally, a decent argument. The thing about custom models is that even with cl_consistancy set to 1 right now, I'm pretty sure you can still work around it and use models which give unfair advantages. And there are far more abusive things you can do with models than with scripts.
But again, if there indeed exists a script so abusive (which I'm pretty sure I already know what it is...) that can't be fixed, so the devs would rather just ban the scripts in the first place, is again, a sloppy fix. If there really exists such an abusive feature of scripting, then I guess the varible is justified as an option, but again, that solution is very unelegant.
However, based on the track record of the devs fixing bugs which were previously thought to be 'un-fixable' due to time contraints, I'm gonna have to do some digging on my own and see how far the problem stretches, as you may tell I am fairly interested on seeing what the problem really is.
Also, cagey, are you sure that scripting is the only way that you can preform the said exploit? Why wouldn't a keyboard macro work as well?
The problem with the blockscripts variable is that 90% of pubbers/admins are clueless (no offense) and they believe that everything is a script and that it can turn you from a newb to an amazing player... It just doesn't work that way, they are totally ignorant to what a script really can do. The best script in the game (non-exploitive) is a 3jump, and ALL IT DOES IS HELP YOU TIME JUMPS. I agree 100% that exploitive scripts should be banned (like leap with no adren) but this isn't the way to do it... and I don't think that many people use exploitive scripts like that anyway, maybe 10 people in all of NS? I've never seen it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The advantage scripts give are that they further streamline your cofiguration to how YOU want it. It's like saying that I should be instabanned for having a more intuitive key setup for myself than someone of equal skill. Yes, even key configuration means the difference between winning and losing. OMG BANT <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last time I checked no normal key commands had wait commands in them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Terrible analogy. Did you explain WHAT you downloaded to "make it easier"? No. Not to mention there IS nothing you can download to "make it easier", unless you download a pre written essay, which would be CHEATING, which is the equivalent to AIMBOTTING, not scripting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either way you downloading something to do something your too lazy to do. The actions of doing either are the same, the punishment of doing this is much less than blatent cheating.
I dont understand how people making 1 key bound to +attack; wait; +attack..... is the same has having a key bound to +attack? The logic just doesnt follow. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nowhere did anybody say scripting made things easier. If you don't know how to do things, then they're as worthless as taking a soccer ball to a hockey game. All scripts do is make things work HOW YOU WANT THEM. They are NOT a substitute for anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do a search before you respond. If you search pages 5,6 and 7 you will find about 4-7 matches.
If they didnt make things easier why use them? (many people have been asking this)
My tab key is bound to an alias, all it does is when I hit tab it shows scores and my netgraph at the same time since I don't like having the netgraph up all the time. 90-95% of scripts are like this, and give no advantadge in a battle, but are just nice and handy to have (I can see my FPS and ping when I hit tab).
And there is pretty much one script that helps in game abilities, a 3jump, which is effectively the same thing as binding mwheel to +jump. I think that a 3jump raises the skill level of a game since without it or mwheel, bhop is impossible (most you can get is a few jumps in a row), and bhop takes a lot of skill to master and use effectively. Without a 3jump or mwheel, this entire skillset is taken away from the game. Shrug. I just wish people who are totally ignorant as to what scripts can and can't do would stop crying about them, because they are misinformed.
Christ on a bike, Forlorn is actually starting to make sense to me. That said I've somewhat changed position. Are scripts bad? Not all. Exploitive scripts - such as IMO the pisol script (notice the IMO), and what obviously isnt an opinion, the ms input from Cagey, are bad. Apart from the latter, blocking the script really isn't going to do much. As Forlorn and others have pointed out, which I'm just now realizing, despite blocking them, theres craploads of ways around it. As far as skill - thats an intangible thing I really don't want to touch on. Scripts make people better, but ultimately I think it comes down to one thing - aim and strategy. Top clans are still going to be top clans without scripts. Why? Their members can aim, and for the most part, have good strategies. Last time I checked there was no script to make a person smarter, and aimbots.... yea I'll just let you finish this since its 3 in the morning and I've made my point.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited July 2004
After eight pages of discussion on an optional blockscript variable, three things are clear:
<u>1. The majority of the anti-scripting community fails the test of knowledge about what precisely scripting can and cannot accomplish. Scripting optimizes only a few areas of play. Optimization is useless if the script-user has no skill in those areas in the first place.</u>
A jump script, for example, is used to perfect the timing of jumping upon landing. Manually, the bunnyhop would simply be (at most) 50-100 speed units slower if the client played it safe and jumped a bit later (because otherwise you stick to the ground.) It is quite possible, contrary to popular belief, to bunnyhop without scripts or even a replacement for scripts that time the jumps to perfection. With enough practice, it is possible to maintain top (or near top) speed for over a minute. It is not possible to practically script bunnyhop to one button.
A pistol script may allow you to fire when pressing and depressing your mouse, while it is just as easy to fire at the maximum rate without the script. In fact, this last script is purely optional and actually carries a few disadvantages in certain combat situations.
There are many more scripts that don't even affect actual in-game play, as described by players with connection problems, framerate issues, and for convenience (such as the netgraph-score script or the client-side lastinv script engineered by romano).
There are only a handful of scripts that are actually abusive. Is it ethical to condemn scripting as a whole because of this dirty handful? XP-Cagey's example of the rapid key combination script is valid, but its existence cannot be blamed on scripting, but on game coding. The same effect (and other exploitative effects) can be reproduced via external means, which does not make the result any better or worse than exploiting it through scripting. Scripting a very useful and accessible tool if you learn it. The possible exploits, which any tool could be used to achieve, should be condemned - not the actual tool. Banning the tool would be just as logical as banning pencils in classrooms because they can be used as weapons.
I want you to ask yourself this, whether you are pro- or anti- scriptblock: why exactly are scripts and those who are knowledgeable in scripting and its uses persecuted? Think long and hard. What would drive people to the point of segregation over such a tool. An interesting observation which might help you make up your mind is that the situation is so desperate that even non-scripting individuals are often labelled as script-users. In my experience, I have witnessed long-standing and very talented players banned from servers for using 'scripts' that <b>DO NOT EVEN EXIST.</b> It has even come to the point that some players would rather see scripting dissapear just so that they no longer are called 'scripters'. They foolishly believe that the scripting accusations will give way to respect of skill. <i>They could not be more wrong - the chat-content of 'scripter' will be replaced with 'hacker'.</i> Ignorance is the key here and the solution to that ignorance would seem to be education. However, the catch-22 exists in that the majority of anti-scripters (the true extremists) do not want any portion of this education even if it was floating right in front of them.
2. <u>The argument of this topic was lost within a pile of useless replies and hijack attempts.</u> Voogru, recently appointed as a developer, has dedicated some of his time (just how much we cannot know) to fixing a controversial variable that is supposed to block scripting. He could have, and still can divert his time to other areas in NS that desperately need development.
First, this controversial variable gives (or is supposed to give) server administrators the option of blocking the use of scripting. This feature is currently broken, asides from blocking the binding of keys to execute custom binding configurations. <u>Voogru has taken the stance of 'fixing what is broken'. However, this broken item can be discarded with even less effort.</u> <b>Why have it there in the first place as a choice for server admins to make?</b>
It is voogru's choice of development assignment that is under trial - his conviction of pursuing the elimination of scripting (as was described in the now deleted sub-title of the topic: "Its time for scripters to die"). This is what was supposed to be the topic of discussion after the second post. Voogru has, since then, slipped out of the debate. It could be expanded to address the choice of the developers to even keep the variable in the game throughout the recent patches. How educated was Flayra about the 'abusive' nature of scripts when he first decided to bring this variable into existence? Edit: On second thought, the existence of a variable proves that his decision went beyond simply the 'abusive' nature of scripts - why did he decide to make such a variable (that gives a choice to block or retain script use) exist in the first place?
3. <u>The great divide between 'scripters' and 'non-scripters' is just the dust on the cover of the book. The real problems run deep into the structure of the Natural-Selection community.</u>
The Natural-Selection community is, due to some unfortunate marketing blunders, not nearly as big as it should have been. The game's complexity and uniqueness is a very weak excuse for not attracting a larger playerbase. In addition, the predominant power structure of the game's development has fallen victim to multiple instances of group-think and selective absorption of information in the past, including Flayra (along with the inner circle) and working down to a few influential figures who are sometimes listened to.
While other decisions can also be discussed in seperate topics, certain decisions should be listed here for their relevance to the subject in question. One such decision was to remove bunnyhop from marines (in a very inefficient manner) whike keeping it for aliens, and then not including any manuals or instructions about how bunnyhop works or any in-built mechanism that would make the perfect timing of the jumps available for everybody. A conflict of interests: partially remove bunnyhop (thus allowing some marines to still bunnyhop in certain areas depending on the map), do not educate the playerbase about a key feature of alien gameplay (why don't any of you non-scripters complain about this? <b>THIS</b> is what you should be furiously scorning), and, instead of simply evening the playing field (here, by 'evening the playing field', I am refering to equal opportunity - not equal skill) by making the most important and commonly used scripted action available to everybody, decide instead to follow a completely irrational path of aliasing out the very piece of code that could have been programmed in. Then the next step was to spawn a variable to divide the community between 'scripters' and 'non-scripters' instead of educating the community about scripting (an official manual, even if it was borrowed from elsewhere, would have worked) and further levelling the playing field. Instead of providing equal opportunity for all and thus eliminating the need for these types of discussions (where the majority of posts that fill the pages are filled to the brim with ignorance), the decision was made to completely ignore the issue, sit on the fence, toss a bone, and watch the dogs fight over it.
Now, surely I am not the only person who sees the incompetence in this decision? There have been some very good choices made by the development team (and administration) in the past, such as deciding to actually make such a unique modification of a FPS game, but most have been overshadowed by folies such as this one. This one is right up there in the top 20 list of the biggest blunders made by the NS team.
And no, it does not take much brains to realize that the team (Flayra specifically) does not owe any NS player anything, no matter how much time that person plays the game, no matter how good/bad he is, no matter how involved he is in the community, and no matter how much he loves it. Every NS player should be thankful just that the game exists and that it is free. However, this does not mean that it is right that every single person should look the other way and pretend that the mistakes that are made by the team do not kill, little by little, the game's potential, the game itself, or both at the same time. Nor is it right for the developers of a game to turn a blind eye to first common sense and then to any warning signs that their efforts are going to drive their BUS into the ditch.
Wow, this is a long thread <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, I agree it was and I didnt mean it as much as it sounded. So forgive me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I was a *tad* angry at the time when I made the thread (just left a combat game were skulk was using some combo leap/bite really fast and pretty much slaugtered the marine team).
I apoligize if I offended anyone from my comment on the thread.
Yeah, I agree it was and I didnt mean it as much as it sounded. So forgive me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I was a *tad* angry at the time when I made the thread (just left a combat game were skulk was using some combo leap/bite really fast and pretty much slaugtered the marine team).
I apoligize if I offended anyone from my comment on the thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry for trolling here, but this post was exactly what I was waiting for.
Here is a developer who gets angry at a skulk that can switch back and forth from leap and bite really quickly. He then makes the assumption that, since the player could switch so quickly, he had to be scripting.
The leap-bite script (similar to blink-slash) is obsolete and is hardly ever used by any competent player. There are two popular and worthwhile alternatives: 1. Romano's client-side lastinv command script (popular replacement for the faulty server-side variation that was included with the game) or 2. binding slot3 and slot1 to accessible keys.
Switching between two weapons really fast is something that was made possible in the game by Flayra, because he put no cap on the rate at which you can switch weapons. However, even if the player was scripting the switches, slaughtering an entire marine team <b>cannot</b> and <b>should not</b> be blamed solely on <u>scripting</u> by any person who can use common sense.
Voogru's last post pretty much brings to light the situation which I described in point #1 of my previous post. Scripts are being beaten like a scapegoat for what is really hated but cannot be denied: skill.
Edit: <a href='http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?t=7653' target='_blank'>A reference discussion spawned after this listed incident.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-in new rule+voogru.com,Jul 5 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (in new rule @ voogru.com,Jul 5 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Relates to the use of scripting: <a href='http://www.voogru.com/rules.php' target='_blank'>http://www.voogru.com/rules.php</a>
Its pretty simple, <u>scripts that allow you to change weapons extremely fast/leap/change to weapon/etc are not allowed, its pretty obvious to detect someone doing this. </u>If I get some time tomorrow <u>I'll be putting in some code to limit how often you can change your weapon <span style='color:red'><b>(once a second or so).</b></span></u>
Feel free to post thoughts, but I want it known <u>I'm sick and tired of people using scripts and calling them <i>"skillz".</i></u><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bunny hopping (triple jump) script gives me an avantage I wouldn't have otherwise as I find it harder to keep up speed without the script.
Sure I could use the mousewheel, but that is bound to slot1 and slot2 so I can easily blink and swipe as fade.
Don't say scripting doesn't give you an advantage, because it clearly does. Even if it is just for convenience, it still makes the game easier for you than it would if you couldn't use scripts.
People could always macro outside of the game, or buy 'better' hardware suited for the purpose, but don't make easy for them by allowing scripts to be used.
Yeah, I agree it was and I didnt mean it as much as it sounded. So forgive me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I was a *tad* angry at the time when I made the thread (just left a combat game were skulk was using some combo leap/bite really fast and pretty much slaugtered the marine team).
I apoligize if I offended anyone from my comment on the thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry for trolling here, but this post was exactly what I was waiting for.
Here is a developer who gets angry at a skulk that can switch back and forth from leap and bite really quickly. He then makes the assumption that, since the player could switch so quickly, he had to be scripting.
The leap-bite script (similar to blink-slash) is obsolete and is hardly ever used by any competent player. There are two popular and worthwhile alternatives: 1. Romano's client-side lastinv command script (popular replacement for the faulty server-side variation that was included with the game) or 2. binding slot3 and slot1 to accessible keys.
Switching between two weapons really fast is something that was made possible in the game by Flayra, because he put no cap on the rate at which you can switch weapons. However, even if the player was scripting the switches, slaughtering an entire marine team <b>cannot</b> and <b>should not</b> be blamed solely on <u>scripting</u> by any person who can use common sense.
Voogru's last post pretty much brings to light the situation which I described in point #1 of my previous post. Scripts are being beaten like a scapegoat for what is really hated but cannot be denied: skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I see what your saying, but its a little different when its 1 skulk taking out 6-7 rines before they can even get a shot at him, and has a score of 40/3.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-voogru+Jul 15 2004, 03:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (voogru @ Jul 15 2004, 03:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I see what your saying, but its a little different when its 1 skulk taking out 6-7 rines before they can even get a shot at him, and has a score of 40/3.
And no, the rines were not nubs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are only two possibilities:
a) The player was using speedhack. b) The marines were nubs.
Unless you're saying the marines couldn't land a shot on them, which could be hitbox related. But no, <b>no script</b> will achieve a score of 40/3. No script can make that much of a difference.
Seriously Voogru, lastinv is far far better than any script for weapon switching. You probably encountered a really good skulk who has practiced, and is all skill, as (sorry, no offense) 90% of pub marines can't aim worth a damn.
I have to say that Sarisel's post is dead on, nice job Sarisel. Very well put <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-rknZ+Jul 15 2004, 02:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rknZ @ Jul 15 2004, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The bunny hopping (triple jump) script gives me an avantage I wouldn't have otherwise as I find it harder to keep up speed without the script.
Sure I could use the mousewheel, but that is bound to slot1 and slot2 so I can easily blink and swipe as fade.
Don't say scripting doesn't give you an advantage, because it clearly does. Even if it is just for convenience, it still makes the game easier for you than it would if you couldn't use scripts.
People could always macro outside of the game, or buy 'better' hardware suited for the purpose, but don't make easy for them by allowing scripts to be used. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So learn how to streamline your controls in other ways if you don't want to use mousewheel?
jeez, did you read <b>a sentence</b> by anyone else?
You could still bind +jump to the spacebar and mouse2 and another key if you wanted help with jumping.
Way to go <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Finally we will see all those nasty scripts disappear. I have to admit, I once was an evil scripter myself, but after reading this thread, I realized my faults:
Script #1:
<i>alias demo demo_01 alias demo_01 "record demo01 ; alias demo stop_01 ; developer 1; echo Record Demo 1; developer 0" alias stop_01 "stop ; alias demo demo_02 ; developer 1; echo Demo stoped; developer 0"</i>
etc ...
This gave my a huge advantage over my opponents in scrims or clanwars. While the enemy players were still typing the name of the demo, I could get to the choke points and prepare my ambush, so that I could then slaughter the whole team. I was accused as a scripter often, and yes, I was one.
This was probably the worst script I used, it gave me even a bigger advantage than the first script. Basically ALL I had to do was hit F1 / F2. Not only was I exploiting the game majorly by not using the "Join Team" portals, which were clearly designed for joining the teams, no, I didn't even have to adjust every single setting by typing it in the console! Now, that's what I would call a huge exploit, if not even cheating :/
I could go on and on, with different configs for each of the alien classes, the evil bunnyhop script which runs and jumps for you, or the pistol script that makes you aim better, but I think I made my point. I'm just glad I made the right decision, and I'm looking forward to the variable being fixed.
im not talking with you anymore gopher <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 16 2004, 12:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 16 2004, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-rknZ+Jul 15 2004, 02:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rknZ @ Jul 15 2004, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The bunny hopping (triple jump) script gives me an avantage I wouldn't have otherwise as I find it harder to keep up speed without the script.
Sure I could use the mousewheel, but that is bound to slot1 and slot2 so I can easily blink and swipe as fade.
Don't say scripting doesn't give you an advantage, because it clearly does. Even if it is just for convenience, it still makes the game easier for you than it would if you couldn't use scripts.
People could always macro outside of the game, or buy 'better' hardware suited for the purpose, but don't make easy for them by allowing scripts to be used. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So learn how to streamline your controls in other ways if you don't want to use mousewheel?
jeez, did you read <b>a sentence</b> by anyone else?
You could still bind +jump to the spacebar and mouse2 and another key if you wanted help with jumping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Get over yourself.
Scripting just makes it easier to exploit the system. That's a FACT.
Scripting just makes it easier to exploit the system. That's a FACT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Same goes for carrying pencils for their use as weapons, let's ban them from being used at all for any reason. Seriously, you should get over <i>yourself</i> and your shortcomings first.
Comments
[Edit] At least he claimed it did, I didn't try it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That script is abusive, yes, but the reason it works is due to a bug in the client to server weapon switching, as far as I know it. The bug busters have been on it for a long time now and hopefully it will be fixed in beta 5 by simply fixing the way you change your weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention it's extremely inconsistant, from what I remember. I believe Urd took the script and tested it, and it worked 1/100 times or something similar. All the other times you'd go nowhere and lose adrenaline.
Cheesy: Forlorn is getting "upset" because he believes this is going to drive an even bigger wedge into the divide between the community. I'm not a clanner, I don't see myself becoming one any time soon, but I can easily see it. High end clanners/pro scripters against the anti scripters, many of whom are Ignorant of scripting and the effects it has, like saying clanners are only so good because they script (regardless of the fact they may just be SKILLED), people vehemently crusading against scripting with little knowledge about them aside from what they've heard about them...You can't really deny this, read any script topic that's ever come up. It's like the CS community all over again, only this time blaming scripts (which aren't necessarily bad) instead of "hacks" (which obviously are), which in turn makes it WORSE <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Simple.
I know I will be enabling script blocking, as many have asked for on our server.
Leveling the playing field for players to make the game more fun for everyone is more important than keeping a few happy.
I do agree that giving server ops the ability to choose is the best idea.
it makes more of a difference then scripts. trust me
it makes more of a difference then scripts. trust me <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Somethings you can do and some you cant.
Think realisticly!
Simple. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This question has been answered 100 times already, but here it is again:
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>It is uttlerly a pointless witchhunt to remove scripts when there exists other means to acheive the same effects such as the script.</span>
Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie. However, the reason they give advantages is <a href='http://www.ampednews.com/?page=articles&id=1055' target='_blank'>because the game allows it.</a> Really, I can name two ways off the top of my head to repicate most of the scripts I use with just keyboard commands and macro's. Hell, you don't even need macro's, macro's are there just in case you are really lazy.
The problem does not exist with the scripts. Banning scripts because it abuses a few elements of the game is, simply put, retarded. It completely ignores that scripts do not allow you to abuse it, it is just the most popular method of abusing the said game elements.
Why is this so incredibly difficult to understand? I think this is the 5th time I've explained it in this thread.
Finally, my challenge still stands:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intrestly enough, still yet anyone has proven that there exists an exploitable or unfair script that can't be replicated through other means.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which I bet my vet icon that no one can name one. Not that it's worth anything too much, but it just shows how super confidant I am.
it makes more of a difference then scripts. trust me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Somethings you can do and some you cant.
Think realisticly! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you are naive enough to believe that eliminating scripts will lessen the gap between good and bad players? Please, good players will still own regardless and bad ones aren't going to suck any less. Sorry to be blunt but you said to think realistically.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
# I have an exploit counterexample (that I'm not about to publish) requiring four sequenced commands in a single frame -- precision that can't be duplicated by a human. Sure, you can mash four *distinct* commands (this is not like +attack;-attack four times) at the same time, but you can't press and release one key at a time at a steady rate of 1 millisecond per action--for those who took typing, that'd be a burst rate of 1000 5-letter words per minute using perfectly flat timing without any errors . I hope that my reputation for letting people into the loop when possible and knowing what I talk about will be enough for you to take my word that exploits do exist that require this sort of timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless I'm somehow misreading your challenge or what he is saying (Which honestly I doubt I am), then that would pretty much fulfill your request.
You come off hypocritical:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like your thinking of the Nsplayers here. I have seen players of equal skill reach their max while one chooses not to script and the the other does. Guess what the scripter is now better.
Cagey does have an example of how scripting can do things you can't, but he wont give it out for obvious reasons.
Vet icon plz.
lol
Scripts are bad, use your "skills" and get up off the couch and change the channel you lazy bumbs. J/K
<b><u>Here is a great example:
I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right?
NO</u></b>
Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.
ALL THESE ARGUEMENTS FALL ON THE SAME LEVEL.
Forlon, I do believe the fact that scripts can be done otherwise but doing this should keep most of the abusers out for a while. You on the other hand people like you have the ablities to do it other ways. But with attitudes like this we wouldnt have even created Cheating-Death, VAC, OGC bocks and the like.
It seems kind of silly to allow the server admins to decide whether or not the players can exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the same reason that custom models (which also open the door to exploits) are optional and controlled by a server variable -- both custom models and scripting add flexibility and value to the game (did I mention I'm normally pro-script? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->) while also adding a new class of potential problems.
If both a server admin and a group of players want to play with custom models and are willing to risk model based cheats, the game doesn't force them to play without a feature. If an admin is concerned about the fact that super bright skins or porcupine models can give players an unfair advantage, the game gives them the ability to block that from happening.
The goal is to let people choose between cool features and security--whether the benefits outweigh the risk remains a personal choice.
In response to some of the other feedback my last post received, I've already said that I'm not going to talk in circles--the problem exists; either take my word for it or don't. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If this is really the case, why are you in such a panic about this change.
It's really really amazing that you expect people not to notice the panic and horror in the tone of everything you write on this subject.
It's like you think people can't tell you're **** your pants about the fact that you might not be able to script in ns anymore..
If there really is no gap to lessen, why do you need to be blunt and respond to everything people post on this subject, violently advocating scripts, regardless of the lack of any benifit(as you say.)
Am I actually reading this right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you are naive enough to believe that eliminating scripts will lessen the gap between good and bad players? Please, good players will still own regardless and bad ones aren't going to suck any less. Sorry to be blunt but you said to think realistically.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You come off hypocritical:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like your thinking of the Nsplayers here. I have seen players of equal skill reach their max while one chooses not to script and the the other does. Guess what the scripter is now better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The advantage scripts give are that they further streamline your cofiguration to how YOU want it. It's like saying that I should be instabanned for having a more intuitive key setup for myself than someone of equal skill. Yes, even key configuration means the difference between winning and losing. OMG BANT
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts are bad, use your "skills" and get up off the couch and change the channel you lazy bumbs. J/K<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Remote controls exist for a reason: so you DON'T need to get up. Going the extra yard so you do thinks the old way? Point being where? It's like saying to stop being lazy and write stuff with a pen and paper instead of using a computer. Also highly irrelevant, joke or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b><u>Here is a great example:
I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right?
NO</u></b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terrible analogy. Did you explain WHAT you downloaded to "make it easier"? No. Not to mention there IS nothing you can download to "make it easier", unless you download a pre written essay, which would be CHEATING, which is the equivalent to AIMBOTTING, not scripting.
If you're talking about downloading a page to use as reference...do tell why that's bad. Last I checked, making references to existing data is kind of what you do in essays. Make a point, reference something to corroborate with what you say, so on and so forth.
Oh, and lo and behold you compare scripting to OGCs. Why didn't I see that coming? THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nowhere did anybody say scripting made things easier. If you don't know how to do things, then they're as worthless as taking a soccer ball to a hockey game. All scripts do is make things work HOW YOU WANT THEM. They are NOT a substitute for anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...
It's really really amazing that you expect people not to notice the panic and horror in
the tone of everything you write on this subject.
...
If there really is no gap to lessen, why do you need to be blunt and respond to everything people post on this subject, violently advocating scripts, regardless of the lack of any benifit(as you say.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't know Forlorn too well. He's ALWAYS this blunt. He's a script user, of COURSE he's going to advocate the continued use of them. But at least he has knowledge of how scripts work, unlike a large majority of the anti script side.
You come off hypocritical:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts DO give advantages. I'm not gonna lie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like your thinking of the Nsplayers here. I have seen players of equal skill reach their max while one chooses not to script and the the other does. Guess what the scripter is now better.
Cagey does have an example of how scripting can do things you can't, but he wont give it out for obvious reasons.
Vet icon plz.
lol
Scripts are bad, use your "skills" and get up off the couch and change the channel you lazy bumbs. J/K
<b><u>Here is a great example:
I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right?
NO</u></b>
Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.
ALL THESE ARGUEMENTS FALL ON THE SAME LEVEL.
Forlon, I do believe the fact that scripts can be done otherwise but doing this should keep most of the abusers out for a while. You on the other hand people like you have the ablities to do it other ways. But with attitudes like this we wouldnt have even created Cheating-Death, VAC, OGC bocks and the like. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If this is really the case, why are you in such a panic about this change.
It's really really amazing that you expect people not to notice the panic and horror in the tone of everything you write on this subject.
It's like you think people can't tell you're **** your pants about the fact that you might not be able to script in ns anymore..
If there really is no gap to lessen, why do you need to be blunt and respond to everything people post on this subject, violently advocating scripts, regardless of the lack of any benifit(as you say.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine we could 'rate' skill.
Look, if a good clanner has a skill level of 1000 normally, then scripts raise his skill level to 1050 because of scripts. Big difference. And again, he is raising his skill level through the use of streamlining his controls. He doesn't HAVE to use scripts. He can use OTHER METHODS.
And your typical pub newbie would be rated 200 on this scale. While obviously people cannot be rated in numbers this sense all the time, it works well enough as an example here.
You remove scripts, and it lowers the clanners skill level to 1000 temporarly while he figures out how to use other methods besides scripts, and meanwhile your bad player is still at 200. Once the clanner figures out how to get around not having scripts of any kind he will go back up to 1050. Gj blocking those scripts in "It evens things out department."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is a great example:
I compare Scripting to cheating on Essays. Sure I have the skills to write up a bomb paper but I think I will just download something to make it easier to do.
Is this right?
NO
Cheats make aiming easier todo, I can aim great but I think ill rest my wrist and get an aimbot to do it for me.
ALL THESE ARGUEMENTS FALL ON THE SAME LEVEL.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These arguemnts don't fall on the same level, if you think it does you are ignoring severity of these situations involved with each, and if you are just gonna ignore stuff then I hope you don't mind me calling you ignorant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the same reason that custom models (which also open the door to exploits) are optional and controlled by a server variable -- both custom models and scripting add flexibility and value to the game (did I mention I'm normally pro-script? ) while also adding a new class of potential problems.
If both a server admin and a group of players want to play with custom models and are willing to risk model based cheats, the game doesn't force them to play without a feature. If an admin is concerned about the fact that super bright skins or porcupine models can give players an unfair advantage, the game gives them the ability to block that from happening.
The goal is to let people choose between cool features and security--whether the benefits outweigh the risk remains a personal choice.
In response to some of the other feedback my last post received, I've already said that I'm not going to talk in circles--the problem exists; either take my word for it or don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally, a decent argument. The thing about custom models is that even with cl_consistancy set to 1 right now, I'm pretty sure you can still work around it and use models which give unfair advantages. And there are far more abusive things you can do with models than with scripts.
But again, if there indeed exists a script so abusive (which I'm pretty sure I already know what it is...) that can't be fixed, so the devs would rather just ban the scripts in the first place, is again, a sloppy fix. If there really exists such an abusive feature of scripting, then I guess the varible is justified as an option, but again, that solution is very unelegant.
However, based on the track record of the devs fixing bugs which were previously thought to be 'un-fixable' due to time contraints, I'm gonna have to do some digging on my own and see how far the problem stretches, as you may tell I am fairly interested on seeing what the problem really is.
Also, cagey, are you sure that scripting is the only way that you can preform the said exploit? Why wouldn't a keyboard macro work as well?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last time I checked no normal key commands had wait commands in them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Terrible analogy. Did you explain WHAT you downloaded to "make it easier"? No. Not to mention there IS nothing you can download to "make it easier", unless you download a pre written essay, which would be CHEATING, which is the equivalent to AIMBOTTING, not scripting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either way you downloading something to do something your too lazy to do. The actions of doing either are the same, the punishment of doing this is much less than blatent cheating.
I dont understand how people making 1 key bound to +attack; wait; +attack..... is the same has having a key bound to +attack? The logic just doesnt follow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Nowhere did anybody say scripting made things easier. If you don't know how to do things, then they're as worthless as taking a soccer ball to a hockey game. All scripts do is make things work HOW YOU WANT THEM. They are NOT a substitute for anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do a search before you respond. If you search pages 5,6 and 7 you will find about 4-7 matches.
If they didnt make things easier why use them? (many people have been asking this)
And there is pretty much one script that helps in game abilities, a 3jump, which is effectively the same thing as binding mwheel to +jump. I think that a 3jump raises the skill level of a game since without it or mwheel, bhop is impossible (most you can get is a few jumps in a row), and bhop takes a lot of skill to master and use effectively. Without a 3jump or mwheel, this entire skillset is taken away from the game. Shrug. I just wish people who are totally ignorant as to what scripts can and can't do would stop crying about them, because they are misinformed.
<u>1. The majority of the anti-scripting community fails the test of knowledge about what precisely scripting can and cannot accomplish. Scripting optimizes only a few areas of play. Optimization is useless if the script-user has no skill in those areas in the first place.</u>
A jump script, for example, is used to perfect the timing of jumping upon landing. Manually, the bunnyhop would simply be (at most) 50-100 speed units slower if the client played it safe and jumped a bit later (because otherwise you stick to the ground.) It is quite possible, contrary to popular belief, to bunnyhop without scripts or even a replacement for scripts that time the jumps to perfection. With enough practice, it is possible to maintain top (or near top) speed for over a minute. It is not possible to practically script bunnyhop to one button.
A pistol script may allow you to fire when pressing and depressing your mouse, while it is just as easy to fire at the maximum rate without the script. In fact, this last script is purely optional and actually carries a few disadvantages in certain combat situations.
There are many more scripts that don't even affect actual in-game play, as described by players with connection problems, framerate issues, and for convenience (such as the netgraph-score script or the client-side lastinv script engineered by romano).
There are only a handful of scripts that are actually abusive. Is it ethical to condemn scripting as a whole because of this dirty handful? XP-Cagey's example of the rapid key combination script is valid, but its existence cannot be blamed on scripting, but on game coding. The same effect (and other exploitative effects) can be reproduced via external means, which does not make the result any better or worse than exploiting it through scripting. Scripting a very useful and accessible tool if you learn it. The possible exploits, which any tool could be used to achieve, should be condemned - not the actual tool. Banning the tool would be just as logical as banning pencils in classrooms because they can be used as weapons.
I want you to ask yourself this, whether you are pro- or anti- scriptblock: why exactly are scripts and those who are knowledgeable in scripting and its uses persecuted? Think long and hard. What would drive people to the point of segregation over such a tool. An interesting observation which might help you make up your mind is that the situation is so desperate that even non-scripting individuals are often labelled as script-users. In my experience, I have witnessed long-standing and very talented players banned from servers for using 'scripts' that <b>DO NOT EVEN EXIST.</b> It has even come to the point that some players would rather see scripting dissapear just so that they no longer are called 'scripters'. They foolishly believe that the scripting accusations will give way to respect of skill. <i>They could not be more wrong - the chat-content of 'scripter' will be replaced with 'hacker'.</i> Ignorance is the key here and the solution to that ignorance would seem to be education. However, the catch-22 exists in that the majority of anti-scripters (the true extremists) do not want any portion of this education even if it was floating right in front of them.
2. <u>The argument of this topic was lost within a pile of useless replies and hijack attempts.</u> Voogru, recently appointed as a developer, has dedicated some of his time (just how much we cannot know) to fixing a controversial variable that is supposed to block scripting. He could have, and still can divert his time to other areas in NS that desperately need development.
First, this controversial variable gives (or is supposed to give) server administrators the option of blocking the use of scripting. This feature is currently broken, asides from blocking the binding of keys to execute custom binding configurations. <u>Voogru has taken the stance of 'fixing what is broken'. However, this broken item can be discarded with even less effort.</u> <b>Why have it there in the first place as a choice for server admins to make?</b>
It is voogru's choice of development assignment that is under trial - his conviction of pursuing the elimination of scripting (as was described in the now deleted sub-title of the topic: "Its time for scripters to die"). This is what was supposed to be the topic of discussion after the second post. Voogru has, since then, slipped out of the debate. It could be expanded to address the choice of the developers to even keep the variable in the game throughout the recent patches. How educated was Flayra about the 'abusive' nature of scripts when he first decided to bring this variable into existence? Edit: On second thought, the existence of a variable proves that his decision went beyond simply the 'abusive' nature of scripts - why did he decide to make such a variable (that gives a choice to block or retain script use) exist in the first place?
3. <u>The great divide between 'scripters' and 'non-scripters' is just the dust on the cover of the book. The real problems run deep into the structure of the Natural-Selection community.</u>
The Natural-Selection community is, due to some unfortunate marketing blunders, not nearly as big as it should have been. The game's complexity and uniqueness is a very weak excuse for not attracting a larger playerbase. In addition, the predominant power structure of the game's development has fallen victim to multiple instances of group-think and selective absorption of information in the past, including Flayra (along with the inner circle) and working down to a few influential figures who are sometimes listened to.
While other decisions can also be discussed in seperate topics, certain decisions should be listed here for their relevance to the subject in question. One such decision was to remove bunnyhop from marines (in a very inefficient manner) whike keeping it for aliens, and then not including any manuals or instructions about how bunnyhop works or any in-built mechanism that would make the perfect timing of the jumps available for everybody. A conflict of interests: partially remove bunnyhop (thus allowing some marines to still bunnyhop in certain areas depending on the map), do not educate the playerbase about a key feature of alien gameplay (why don't any of you non-scripters complain about this? <b>THIS</b> is what you should be furiously scorning), and, instead of simply evening the playing field (here, by 'evening the playing field', I am refering to equal opportunity - not equal skill) by making the most important and commonly used scripted action available to everybody, decide instead to follow a completely irrational path of aliasing out the very piece of code that could have been programmed in. Then the next step was to spawn a variable to divide the community between 'scripters' and 'non-scripters' instead of educating the community about scripting (an official manual, even if it was borrowed from elsewhere, would have worked) and further levelling the playing field. Instead of providing equal opportunity for all and thus eliminating the need for these types of discussions (where the majority of posts that fill the pages are filled to the brim with ignorance), the decision was made to completely ignore the issue, sit on the fence, toss a bone, and watch the dogs fight over it.
Now, surely I am not the only person who sees the incompetence in this decision? There have been some very good choices made by the development team (and administration) in the past, such as deciding to actually make such a unique modification of a FPS game, but most have been overshadowed by folies such as this one. This one is right up there in the top 20 list of the biggest blunders made by the NS team.
And no, it does not take much brains to realize that the team (Flayra specifically) does not owe any NS player anything, no matter how much time that person plays the game, no matter how good/bad he is, no matter how involved he is in the community, and no matter how much he loves it. Every NS player should be thankful just that the game exists and that it is free. However, this does not mean that it is right that every single person should look the other way and pretend that the mistakes that are made by the team do not kill, little by little, the game's potential, the game itself, or both at the same time. Nor is it right for the developers of a game to turn a blind eye to first common sense and then to any warning signs that their efforts are going to drive their BUS into the ditch.
Edited for clarity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Voogru's comment was overboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree it was and I didnt mean it as much as it sounded. So forgive me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I was a *tad* angry at the time when I made the thread (just left a combat game were skulk was using some combo leap/bite really fast and pretty much slaugtered the marine team).
I apoligize if I offended anyone from my comment on the thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Voogru's comment was overboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree it was and I didnt mean it as much as it sounded. So forgive me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I was a *tad* angry at the time when I made the thread (just left a combat game were skulk was using some combo leap/bite really fast and pretty much slaugtered the marine team).
I apoligize if I offended anyone from my comment on the thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for trolling here, but this post was exactly what I was waiting for.
Here is a developer who gets angry at a skulk that can switch back and forth from leap and bite really quickly. He then makes the assumption that, since the player could switch so quickly, he had to be scripting.
The leap-bite script (similar to blink-slash) is obsolete and is hardly ever used by any competent player. There are two popular and worthwhile alternatives: 1. Romano's client-side lastinv command script (popular replacement for the faulty server-side variation that was included with the game) or 2. binding slot3 and slot1 to accessible keys.
Switching between two weapons really fast is something that was made possible in the game by Flayra, because he put no cap on the rate at which you can switch weapons. However, even if the player was scripting the switches, slaughtering an entire marine team <b>cannot</b> and <b>should not</b> be blamed solely on <u>scripting</u> by any person who can use common sense.
Voogru's last post pretty much brings to light the situation which I described in point #1 of my previous post. Scripts are being beaten like a scapegoat for what is really hated but cannot be denied: skill.
Edit: <a href='http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?t=7653' target='_blank'>A reference discussion spawned after this listed incident.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-in new rule+voogru.com,Jul 5 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (in new rule @ voogru.com,Jul 5 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Relates to the use of scripting: <a href='http://www.voogru.com/rules.php' target='_blank'>http://www.voogru.com/rules.php</a>
Its pretty simple, <u>scripts that allow you to change weapons extremely fast/leap/change to weapon/etc are not allowed, its pretty obvious to detect someone doing this. </u>If I get some time tomorrow <u>I'll be putting in some code to limit how often you can change your weapon <span style='color:red'><b>(once a second or so).</b></span></u>
Feel free to post thoughts, but I want it known <u>I'm sick and tired of people using scripts and calling them <i>"skillz".</i></u><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure I could use the mousewheel, but that is bound to slot1 and slot2 so I can easily blink and swipe as fade.
Don't say scripting doesn't give you an advantage, because it clearly does. Even if it is just for convenience, it still makes the game easier for you than it would if you couldn't use scripts.
People could always macro outside of the game, or buy 'better' hardware suited for the purpose, but don't make easy for them by allowing scripts to be used.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Voogru's comment was overboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree it was and I didnt mean it as much as it sounded. So forgive me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I was a *tad* angry at the time when I made the thread (just left a combat game were skulk was using some combo leap/bite really fast and pretty much slaugtered the marine team).
I apoligize if I offended anyone from my comment on the thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for trolling here, but this post was exactly what I was waiting for.
Here is a developer who gets angry at a skulk that can switch back and forth from leap and bite really quickly. He then makes the assumption that, since the player could switch so quickly, he had to be scripting.
The leap-bite script (similar to blink-slash) is obsolete and is hardly ever used by any competent player. There are two popular and worthwhile alternatives: 1. Romano's client-side lastinv command script (popular replacement for the faulty server-side variation that was included with the game) or 2. binding slot3 and slot1 to accessible keys.
Switching between two weapons really fast is something that was made possible in the game by Flayra, because he put no cap on the rate at which you can switch weapons. However, even if the player was scripting the switches, slaughtering an entire marine team <b>cannot</b> and <b>should not</b> be blamed solely on <u>scripting</u> by any person who can use common sense.
Voogru's last post pretty much brings to light the situation which I described in point #1 of my previous post. Scripts are being beaten like a scapegoat for what is really hated but cannot be denied: skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see what your saying, but its a little different when its 1 skulk taking out 6-7 rines before they can even get a shot at him, and has a score of 40/3.
And no, the rines were not nubs.
And no, the rines were not nubs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are only two possibilities:
a) The player was using speedhack.
b) The marines were nubs.
Unless you're saying the marines couldn't land a shot on them, which could be hitbox related. But no, <b>no script</b> will achieve a score of 40/3. No script can make that much of a difference.
I have to say that Sarisel's post is dead on, nice job Sarisel. Very well put <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sure I could use the mousewheel, but that is bound to slot1 and slot2 so I can easily blink and swipe as fade.
Don't say scripting doesn't give you an advantage, because it clearly does. Even if it is just for convenience, it still makes the game easier for you than it would if you couldn't use scripts.
People could always macro outside of the game, or buy 'better' hardware suited for the purpose, but don't make easy for them by allowing scripts to be used. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So learn how to streamline your controls in other ways if you don't want to use mousewheel?
jeez, did you read <b>a sentence</b> by anyone else?
You could still bind +jump to the spacebar and mouse2 and another key if you wanted help with jumping.
Finally we will see all those nasty scripts disappear. I have to admit, I once was an evil scripter myself, but after reading this thread, I realized my faults:
Script #1:
<i>alias demo demo_01
alias demo_01 "record demo01 ; alias demo stop_01 ; developer 1; echo Record Demo 1; developer 0"
alias stop_01 "stop ; alias demo demo_02 ; developer 1; echo Demo stoped; developer 0"</i>
etc ...
This gave my a huge advantage over my opponents in scrims or clanwars. While the enemy players were still typing the name of the demo, I could get to the choke points and prepare my ambush, so that I could then slaughter the whole team. I was accused as a scripter often, and yes, I was one.
Script #2:
<i>bind "F1" "jointeamone; exec config/marine.cfg"
bind "F2" "jointeamtwo; exec config/alien.cfg"</i>
This was probably the worst script I used, it gave me even a bigger advantage than the first script. Basically ALL I had to do was hit F1 / F2. Not only was I exploiting the game majorly by not using the "Join Team" portals, which were clearly designed for joining the teams, no, I didn't even have to adjust every single setting by typing it in the console! Now, that's what I would call a huge exploit, if not even cheating :/
I could go on and on, with different configs for each of the alien classes, the evil bunnyhop script which runs and jumps for you, or the pistol script that makes you aim better, but I think I made my point. I'm just glad I made the right decision, and I'm looking forward to the variable being fixed.
Sure I could use the mousewheel, but that is bound to slot1 and slot2 so I can easily blink and swipe as fade.
Don't say scripting doesn't give you an advantage, because it clearly does. Even if it is just for convenience, it still makes the game easier for you than it would if you couldn't use scripts.
People could always macro outside of the game, or buy 'better' hardware suited for the purpose, but don't make easy for them by allowing scripts to be used. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So learn how to streamline your controls in other ways if you don't want to use mousewheel?
jeez, did you read <b>a sentence</b> by anyone else?
You could still bind +jump to the spacebar and mouse2 and another key if you wanted help with jumping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get over yourself.
Scripting just makes it easier to exploit the system. That's a FACT.
Scripting just makes it easier to exploit the system. That's a FACT. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same goes for carrying pencils for their use as weapons, let's ban them from being used at all for any reason. Seriously, you should get over <i>yourself</i> and your shortcomings first.
I don't know why you act like it is.