I'm fully aware of what I'm typing and the effects they have on the people who read them. And fyi, I'm not clanning. Nor have I been for 5 months. I am a pubber in every aspect of the word. I merely get **** when I see people who lack basic common sense. There is a difference between horrible players and players who are new.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I try to get long time pubbing friends of mine to join up a clan and play competitively, and they say no, because they don't want to play with people with more pride and attitude than tact<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you sure that's the reason?
I'm not going to beat around the bush or sugar coat everything for some people just so they can sit here lieing to themselves and say they're not bad... It's just not going to happen.
On topic: I agree that if any tweaking is in place, buff them up rather than nerf them. But I don't think changes should be made strictly because people don't understand the game and how to use strategies to overcome obsticles.
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+Jul 15 2004, 06:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo @ Jul 15 2004, 06:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> crap <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Play on a different server... problem solved. I'd invite you to come to my fav server, but it is for mature NS players who want to play the game right. I dont feel you meet the first criteria.
Also... Whining and moaning on the forums DOES NOTHING. Stop crying about it and start TEACHING them. Eventually you'll get a nice crowd of regulars hanging around your favorite server.
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+Jul 15 2004, 07:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo @ Jul 15 2004, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As luck of the draw would have it, 75%+ of average pubbers suck. Ya, who would have guessed, surely not me. They are mentally defective in nearly every aspect imaginable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And the rest of them have a superiority complex, insist that they are the best player on their team and subsequently refuse to cooperate with anyone. Not that that applies to you or anything.
Please don't speak for the majority or the average when you can't possibly have played regularly with more than a fraction of the playerbase. Maybe the majority of the players on your server are newbs(though probably it has more to do with your ego), but that certainly doesn't apply to everywhere. Random pub servers often have a higher newbie concentration since the majority of experienced players have already found a decent server to regular on. If that's actually a problem then try playing somewhere else. Personally, I'd rather play with a complete newbie who's willing to communicate and learn than an arrogant l33t stereotype who thinks he's too good to do anything but rambo and save for Fade.
You complain that there is no teamplay, and in the same post tell us about how you spend the entire game ramboing and being angry at your teammates because they aren't good enough? Has it occurred to you that a lack of teamplay usually has more to do with people like that than actual newbies?
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited July 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jul 15 2004, 10:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jul 15 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+Jul 15 2004, 06:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo @ Jul 15 2004, 06:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> crap <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Play on a different server... problem solved. I'd invite you to come to my fav server, but it is for mature NS players who want to play the game right. I dont feel you meet the first criteria.
Also... Whining and moaning on the forums DOES NOTHING. Stop crying about it and start TEACHING them. Eventually you'll get a nice crowd of regulars hanging around your favorite server. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, now aren't you full of yourself? You have pretty much everything it seems - your little community of 'mature NS players who want to play the game <i>right</i>', your fav. server, and, of course, your big ego.
Instead of writing off a person's post as 'crap' just because you don't possess the analytical ability to understand it, why don't you just not post anything at all? And do you think that you are original in repeating what is now pretty much the cliche "all talk and no action" statement? Go on and be naive about teaching the average NS player, because 'eventually' will be anywhere from several months to several years. The education that is required should be provided in the game by the development team, not through secondary and tertiary sources.
Edit: And FFS, people who think that just because their server is often full of somewhat intelligent players and who then go on to assume that this sample represents the majority of average NS players need to open their eyes. Stop daydreaming about your little utopias and go and actually get a <b>random</b> sample of average NSplayer skill before putting down Harmondo's estimation as being full of crap.
How can you defend someone who thinks 75% of the community are idiotic nubs?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow, now aren't you full of yourself? You have pretty much everything it seems - your little community of 'mature NS players who want to play the game <i>right</i>', your fav. server, and, of course, your big ego. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because on the server i play on... everyone DOES play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Friendly helpful players full to the brim with new and interesting stratigies and tactics. The games we play are dynamic, always new, and fresh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of writing off a person's post as 'crap' just because you don't possess the analytical ability to understand it, why don't you just not post anything at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should re-read the post i replied to before you comment on MY post. Does this mean you confirmed Harmondo's amazing analytical abilities... thus allowing him to make drastic and demeaning comments on a large group of people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And do you think that you are original in repeating what is now pretty much the cliche "all talk and no action" statement? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going for originality... I'm telling him to put up and shut up or do something about it because thats what he needs to do!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Go on and be naive about educating the average NS player, because eventually' will be anywhere from several months to several years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Teaching someone the game doesn't take months! I've just watched someone entirely new to NS join the server I play on and evolve to a mediocre player under the guidence of those on the server within a week. A few answered questions later the server has a new regular!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And FFS, people who think that just because their server is often full of somewhat intelligent players and who then go on to assume that this sample represents the majority of average NS players need to open their eyes.Edit: Stop daydreaming about your little utopias and go and actually get a <b>random</b> sample of average NSplayer skill before putting down Harmondo's estimation as being full of crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh... So the sample of the alleged "idiots" on Harmondo's server was a accurate representation of the NS community?
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jul 15 2004, 11:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jul 15 2004, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How can you defend someone who thinks 75% of the community are idiotic nubs?
Thats because on the server i play on... everyone DOES play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Friendly helpful players full to the brim with new and interesting stratigies and tactics. The games we play are dynamic, always new, and fresh.
Maybe you should re-read the post i replied to before you comment on MY post. Does this mean you confirmed Harmondo's amazing analytical abilities... thus allowing him to make drastic and demeaning comments on a large group of people?
I'm not going for originality... I'm telling him to put up and shut up or do something about it because thats what he needs to do! Teaching someone the game doesn't take months! I've just watched someone entirely new to NS join the server I play on and evolve to a mediocre player under the guidence of those on the server within a week. A few answered questions later the server has a new regular!
Oh... So the sample of the alleged "idiots" on Harmondo's server was a accurate representation of the NS community? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, get your facts straight. Harmondo said that "75%+ of average pubbers suck". He did not call 75% of the community idiotic noobs, which is your false interpretation and, therefore, your problem. In reply to a later portion in your fragmented post, I have actually found a major lacking of common sense in most of the servers that I visited until I quit playing last month. Then there were many instances that went beyond a simple deficiency in common sense. You can only defend the average player to an extent until there are no excuses left. You, however, are biased in this field because you are a regular on a server where there seems to be some order.
Secondly, I am happy that you have a good server and a good community. It doesn't matter what points of reference for 'good' or 'right' that you use to gauge your server and the play on it. However, using these as crutches to put down another player (and I quote you: "I dont feel you meet the first criteria") makes you a bigot in my eyes. So is giving the statement of 'put up or shut up'. Harmondo gave his opinion for discussion of the matter in question, which is one valid use of these forums.
Finally, the basic education of a player that wants to learn is not difficult. What is difficult is to find players willing to learn. They are considerably rare. It is even more difficult to convince these players to hang around the same server, unless you already have an established community. Beyond basic learning is what really matters: i.e. developing good movement, common sense, the ability to think while on one's feet. Some players never learn, while for others it takes anywhere between a few months to more than a year to grasp the concepts of smart play.
This having been said, IMO more than 75% of the entire NS community play horribly when it comes to actual tactical and strategical play. I would estimate the percentage to be at around 87%. Teaching tactical and strategical play takes lots of time and effort. Often, the average pubber would not even be dedicated enough to want to learn the concepts of advanced play. Harmondo is a hardcore player and, unfortunately, the majority of average pub servers simply lack for such a calibre of play.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jul 15 2004, 11:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jul 15 2004, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh... So the sample of the alleged "idiots" on Harmondo's server was a accurate representation of the NS community?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) I have no server 2) I have played on nearly every [us] server out there that isn't password protected for the past year +. So I feel my "representation" of the NS community is pretty damn good.
And "alleged idiots"? Excuse me? You must be smoking crack because for you to believe they are something other than that would be down right absurd.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You complain that there is no teamplay, and in the same post tell us about how you spend the entire game ramboing and being angry at your teammates because they aren't good enough?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much. Thanks for pointing that out. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has it occurred to you that a lack of teamplay usually has more to do with people like that than actual newbies?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thought had crossed my mind... /me whipes away a trickling tear. But no. I think you're wrong there.
Keep the flames comin guys. There's enough room here for everyone who wants to stray off topic until it inevitably gets locked.
Suffice it to say that when someone becomes so hopelessly pessimistic and bitter that they believe only about 1 out of every 10 players don't "suck," there's no point in arguing with them. I don't know what standard you two are trying to hold people to and how you determine whether or not they meet them, but if 90% of the playerbase are complete retards who aren't capable of intelligent thought then why do you still play with them? More often, I suspect, when people draw those kinds of conclusions it's when a couple of players on their team are newbies, and the rest of them simply don't communicate(maybe they're just as incredibly awesome as Harmondo, but nobody knows since they aren't team players) so the aforementioned player uses his pessimistic imagination to draw a conclusion about the entire playerbase.
Every server has its share of idiots. The difference is how well they're administrated. Servers that don't do anything about these people are going to have a higher concentration of them than those that do; as more players realize this and regular on servers with admins, the worse servers start to have more of the worse players. If you don't like it, pick a server and stick with it. Observations made based only on the conclusions you drew about your teammates on completely random pub servers are NOT an accurate representation of the entire community.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First of all, get your facts straight. Harmondo said that "75%+ of average pubbers suck". He did not call 75% of the community idiotic noobs, which is your false interpretation and, therefore, your problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As luck of the draw would have it, 75%+ of average pubbers suck. Ya, who would have guessed, surely not me. They are mentally defective in nearly every aspect imaginable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well darn... he did say they sucked... Your right. Wait... whats that? The rest of his post!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate playing aliens for the sole reason that I hate having to depend on my team which, as mentioned above, is primarily composed of <b>idiots</b> who don't know how to play the game and <i>have no intentions of ever learning.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because round after round after round I get stuck with the same crap, a team full of children who I feel like I need to baby sit for them to accomplish anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no team when 75% of the players don't know jack about jack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to a new or semi-new player in ns... "wow, those aliens look mighty interesting. Hey, I'ma give 'em a try." I'ts like a giant nub fest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Geee... I wonder where i got my "false interpretation" of Harmondo's post. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Harmondo gave his opinion for discussion of the matter in question, which is one valid use of these forums. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ability to voice an opinion doesn't give a free ticket to bash a large group of people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, the basic education of a player that wants to learn is not difficult. What is difficult is to find players willing to learn. They are considerably rare. It is even more difficult to convince these players to hang around the same server, unless you already have an established community. Beyond basic learning is what really matters: i.e. developing good movement, common sense, the ability to think while on one's feet. Some players never learn, while for others it takes anywhere between a few months to more than a year to grasp the concepts of smart play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea we cant force people to learn... but if they are <i>purposely</i> staying blind to all game mechanics it is usually because their only goal in playing that game is to ruin it for others. Those people are usually delt with by kicking or (if they persist) banning. Keep those interested... keep the rest out. This doesn't mean kicking all whose names are "NSPlayer(X)". It means keeping the atmosphere light hearted and be responsive to any/all questions. Heck, you could provoke questions by simply asking the player "why are you attacking as gorge?" or "why did you just run right at the marine?" And then follow that up with a few hints or tips.
You may call it Egotistical or being a bigot... I call it progress.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 16 2004, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 16 2004, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, it proves that Harmondo called 75% of pub players both "idiots" and "nubs," amongst other things, at some point in his post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what happens when you take quotations out of context. Very convenient.
Harmondo makes some excellent points, but I feel that the failure is more the fault of the developers than the veterans.
Natural Selection has always been a hard game to learn. However, in earlier versions of the mod, the Kharaa usually knew what they were doing more than the marines, because the in game system usually convinced new players to learn marines first.
Kharaa players typically had more experience than marine players, and used their advantages as much as possible. However, as later versions came, the appeal of NS got wider, and the versions got more "noob friendly," meaning that the aliens have been nerfed to allow noob marines to do better AND allow noob aliens to better control their classes.
So, a more noob friendly game means that more noobs are willing to try the various aspects of the game out. The problem is that, in their current state, Kharaa are forced to have an extreme reliance on resources while being forced to work more as a team while having to deal with extensively nerfed abilities. Yes, a good Kharaa team can win, provided that the marine team is equal to or below in skill and team size.
*Edit* Don't forget that the Kharaa have no chance of coming back once they start losing. Most games get decided in the first 5-10 minutes now, and that's an overestimation. So, no fun playing Kharaa in classic.**
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Jul 16 2004, 12:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Jul 16 2004, 12:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 16 2004, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 16 2004, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, it proves that Harmondo called 75% of pub players both "idiots" and "nubs," amongst other things, at some point in his post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what happens when you take quotations out of context. Very convenient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU put THOSE quote in context and make it seem like he isn't calling people idiots and nubs... go ahead, try... I'm watching.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second part appears out of context as it does not refer to the process of learning advanced play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
learning advanced play is up to the player himself. All the community owes them is a introduction to the basics. If the player wants to compete competatively (clans) he would learn himself or join a clan... who would teach the player themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+Jul 15 2004, 06:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo @ Jul 15 2004, 06:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me fill you in on something... Marines are typically "stacked" not because they are actually stacked 90% of the time, but because a single marine with impeccable aim can do more damage than a single uber alien. As luck of the draw would have it, 75%+ of average pubbers suck. Ya, who would have guessed, surely not me. They are mentally defective in nearly every aspect imaginable.
I hate playing aliens for the sole reason that I hate having to depend on my team which, as mentioned above, is primarily composed of idiots who don't know how to play the game and have no intentions of ever learning. They are the ones that cry hacks every time someone can whoop their **** because they don't know how to dodge. Because round after round after round I get stuck with the same crap, a team full of children who I feel like I need to baby sit for them to accomplish anything. Now tell me something, how fun is that? Not very.
<b>Not</b> simply because skulks suck.
Now to address the rambo-ing: 95% of the time I play, I rambo. Why? Because I can accomplish more by myself, than having to baby sit 2 or 3 marines who wish to stalk me around the map. All they do is get in the way. Ever time I try to dodge, BOOM! there's a teammate in my way. So I die. Every time I call for ammo, there's another marine there to take it even though he's one clip short of being full. Or taking a medpack even though he has 92 health after being parasited. And don't you just love trying to bite a marine only to have another skulk who couldn't aim to save his life tries desperately to get in your way and get the kill, only to block you from killing that marine, and inevitably get both of you killed? This list could go on forever.
Yes, some can argue that NS is a "team" based game. I say that's a crock, especially on pubs. There <i>is</i> no "team". There is no team when 75% of the players don't know jack about jack. If you really want to solve this problem -- <b>EDUCATE THE AVERAGE NS PLAYER!!!!!!!!! </b>
Sorry to have to break this to you, but the average NSPlayer doesn't know a hive under attack from a chair turned upside down with the legs high in the air that he sat on to help himself get off. They don't know how to ambush; they don't know how to dodge; hell... they don't even know not to get upgrades every time they die as a skulk, but they do it anyway.
That is the reason a single rambo can do so much damage to a team. None of the aliens know what's going on. And to a new or semi-new player in ns... "wow, those aliens look mighty interesting. Hey, I'ma give 'em a try." I'ts like a giant nub fest. Even in cs, the average player can grasp the basics of the game. Yes there are a few stray hairs here and there. But the majority know what's going on. CS: plant the bomb as t, try to defuse the bomb as ct, don't use dualies if you don't want to get your **** beat, etc... NS: kill the marines, protect the hives/cc, put up hives/res/structures, kill the cc/hive. There are positives and negatives to all classes and weapons in NS. That is why it's a RTS. People need to learn how to play the game.
Maybe I'm just the loan ranger here and am the only one who feels this way... but I doubt it.
And as Forlorn mentioned, much of it also has to do with the current maps in rotation. Half of them are complete jokes, both for competitive play and pubs.
*There are plenty of dead ends and redundant sentences in this thread... don't strain yourself in trying to figure them out. Just skip past them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is precisely why I only play combat nowadays
No teamwork, and the balance is pretty close to regular NS in terms of balance, and way more fun.
Don't try to pin the blame on the developers now. Call me a nub, noob, fanboi, whatever you want, but up until recently there has always been the resources to learn. They still have the frontiersmen manual posted on the front page, which is the very resource I used to get started on the right foot, and they still host the strategies and new players forums. Admittedly, it is out of date now, but this is a beta test, not necessarily intended for new players (but made it to them anyway).
When I joined my first 1.02 game, sure, I knew very little about tactics and strategies in the game. My first command win came in the late era of 2.01, long after my first games. However, in my first games, I did had a grasp of my role on the battlefield. I knew to follow waypoints, to build structures, and defend otherwise emptied posts (with my sad inability to aim). As an alien, I stuck with the big boys and saw how they played. And that laid the foundation for how I currently play NS as a strategic operation. I know that not every NS player is going to be like me, but can we pretty please use that little example as a model of how things COULD work (whether you believe that I started this way or not)?
I think the problem is the pessimistic attitude among certain people. It's OK to admit that many people on pubs are noobs. But venturing to bash them as complete idiots and them give up on them is the wrong thing to do. The developers are working hard on their end of the job, the resources are out there to get started. Let's get started on our end of the deal.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Jul 16 2004, 01:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Jul 16 2004, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> learning advanced play is up to the player himself. All the community owes them is a introduction to the basics. If the player wants to compete competatively (clans) he would learn himself or join a clan... who would teach the player themselves. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well that's just the issue, isn't it? If you are a top-notch player and play in a public server where advanced play (which is what makes a difference between winning and losing) is almost non-existent, then you may get quite frustrated. This is where Harmondo is coming from.
In my honest opinion, regardless to what value you may wish to place on it, the main reason why rambo/lone marines are so darn devestating is due to the fact that if they are given a chance and some time, they can bring the entire team to a position without the kharaa even being aware of it. Since that position is usually a typical siege spot, with the Hive as the main target. There is no equivalent to this strategy in the kahraa's arsenal except for one or two fades attacking marine spawn, which is then quickly remidied by an emergancy beacon or a few phase throughs and a light scattering of shotguns. Don't go off saying that this should happen as there is a greater investment in the phase network, a beacon or the shotguns to counter the costs of the Fades since 1 kharaa res != 1 marine res. Marine res is pooled, and thus, has a lower value than the individually siphoned kharaa res. What good is 60 res in a kharaa team when they are spread in 10 res allotments? A gorge or maybe a few rapid deaths with an upgrade as a skulk. What good is 60 marine res? 30 med packs, 6 shotguns, an upgrade or two, motion tracking, a small phase outpost, 4 HMGs or even perhaps one or two fully equipped members of a HA train, which is the bare minimum for a self-sufficient squad mind you, just to mention a few options.
Ever since 1.0x, the main advantage and flaw of the Hive sight was determined to be the fact that it only responds to enemy attacks. Ninja sieges became rather common as the entire marine team minus one goes around raising a ruckus on the hive sight while letting one marine slip by since it's just 'background noise'. Loosing a hive is a MASSIVE blow and it can be achieved in litterally 5 seconds after the first 'Hive is under attack' signal. May the powers that be help the kharaa team if that rambo marine sneaking around, placing forward positions has ungodly aim, since he could pick off skulks with a quick 5 bullet barrage from the pistol.
This leads to my second main gripe. Marines can attack by using an 'offensive defense', mainly, the siege turrets. Hold and defend a position long enough and you will be able to attack with absolute safety. The kharaa already have the dodgy end of the stick when it comes to base breaking, and this offensive defense ability makes them have to use their weakness. Gorge Bilebomb when the gorge is taken out like crazy, Onos which is only really powerful when it has stomp but gets taken down by a pack of shotguns and HMGs which arrive at around the same time as it does, and the fact that it has to attack a DEFENSIVE POSITION, which is often enclosed, easy to guard and full of flying pieces of metal. Needless to say, the skulks needs blessings from the pope to be able to contribute much since they can no long ambush, as so many people have quickly responded as their specialty when others complain that the marines own the skulks.
No meaning to offend anyone but you have to think about this problem. You set in your mind that the Skulk is a scout unit, and is thus not supposed to be relied upon for assaults, yet, as they are the base unit it would appear logical that they would have to be able to be fairly well rounded when it comes to their tasks. When it comes to the crunch and the hive is being seiged, you don't have the time to pop into an egg for 10-15 seconds and pop out as a Fade. Nor would you necessarily have the resources to do such a thing. What do you do then? Attack the second you get the opportunity to do so, as a SKULK, a SCOUT UNIT. Sure, you could grab carapace that gives you, 40-50 more effective HP but what does that matter when a 10 res shotgun that is avaliable from the beginning of the game blasts you to bits with a direct bullseye as you close in for the attack? Sure, if it was the 2nd complete hive that was being attacked, you're in a better position to be wielding perhaps 2-3 Fades and maybe a few lerks as well. But by the same token, they would also have HMGs, grenade launchers and the HA is in the works.
I've rambled and ranted long enough. The marine rambo itself is not the main problem.. Rather, it's a sign of a much larger problem.
Sigh...like I said before, it's the players that are broken not the game. Just look at the last 2 pages of this thread =\
Watch exigent play aliens and you'll think aliens are overpowered. Then watch them play marines and you'll think marines are overpowered <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Public servers are just that, public. Anyone with an internet connection and a half-life cd key can play on them. Teamwork is more or less nonexistent on every single public server in the world. Would you go to a billiards hall and watch random people playing pool (and missing many shots) and say "omg the pockets should be bigger"? No, I would hope not. For real stop whining about ns balance based on public servers. I dare someone to go to a bunch of public servers and ask people on them which side is stronger <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think balancing is the only thing that Starcraft really shined in.
3 different races, but still very much balanced. You have more than your fair share of morons on battle net, but Starcraft is still healthy for both competitive play and 'pubbing'
No, the players aren't broken, the game is. While it's much harder to try and balance 2 completely different races on an FPS game, it's still possible.
In the end, it's really not about balancing, it's about having fun. And pubbing on aliens is not fun.
It's very easy to blame a development team for mistakes that are made that become alarmingly obvious in public play. When many clan matches end up in ties because both teams own as marines and get owned as aliens, that makes the problem that much more glaring. People want more teamplay for the Kharaa when the Kharaa are not designed to be played with teamplay in mind. Just look at the res system. The Kharaa is all about "me" and "I." When "I" get res, "I" go gorge, "I" go fade. There is very little "we" there. People choose what they want to do. There is little to no unity.
The marines do not choose. The commander is the marine backbone. They trust and expect the commander to give them upgrades, armor, weapons, health, ammo, and a common goal. The marines work as a unit because of the commander. There is quite a bit of unity.
The only thing that gave the Kharaa counter-balance was the sheer power of the individual unit. A good Onos could saunter in to a marine outpost, kill the marines, and take the whole base down. He would have 1-2 units helping him out, but he'd be doing the real work, taking the brunt of the bullets and killing the most in return. Then, he was nerfed. He was downgraded to a "hit and run" unit, something that realistically does not work.
Pub alien play doesn't work. There is no unity and there is not enough sheer force behind any alien class (except fade) to allow a rambo alien to turn the tide. This is the developer's fault. They've made a great game, and then they made a mistake in this version. That's fine...I'm sure that things like BUS and some good patches could resolve much of this.
Go fade on a pub and come back telling me its not fun being alien, kill a Ha as a skulk or kill the upragrading armory. Pub mean fun win or loose mean nothing. The player make the biggest part of the balance when ppl see a vet icon they stack the team not just marine team but alien too...
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jul 16 2004, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jul 16 2004, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think balancing is the only thing that Starcraft really shined in.
3 different races, but still very much balanced. You have more than your fair share of morons on battle net, but Starcraft is still healthy for both competitive play and 'pubbing'
No, the players aren't broken, the game is. While it's much harder to try and balance 2 completely different races on an FPS game, it's still possible.
In the end, it's really not about balancing, it's about having fun. And pubbing on aliens is not fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not fun if it doesn't have a half-decent balance
la grande parche, fun for one, frustrating for everybody else.
You're forgetting that only a few people can fade on a pub. When those fades die within the minute, it makes the players who dropped the DCs and RTs pretty frustrated.
I'm not blaming the developers for the balance; it would be unfair and unjust as they have made a great game. However, based on from what I've heard (I'm relatively new to NS, joined in 3.0) is that there are very little recourse for balancing since:
Maps have quite a long period for development and map design becomes a balance issue when you scale the number of players on the server.
Clan and Public play unit stats stay the same.
Basically, to 'balance' NS, you have to either sacrifice public or clan play assuming that the two facts above stay constant, since the vast majority of public servers have very little coordination and hence, many srategies and conveniences can be impossible to realize.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jul 16 2004, 03:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jul 16 2004, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're forgetting that only a few people can fade on a pub. When those fades die within the minute, it makes the players who dropped the DCs and RTs pretty frustrated. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ironic no? usually those players forced to build could have taken that fade to the end of the game, but asshats decide "We dont need no none res nodes!"
Here comes a defence for the pubs... i think its fair to say it needs a decent one lately.
Considering 75% of the pubbers noobs or idiots is an egregious overstatement of the fact. The fact is that 75% of pubbers display skill that would seem laughable when compared to the skill of say.... a hardened regular clanner in pugs and tourneys. In these competitive games it is obvious that everyone's main goal is to do everything in their power to ensure victory. This simply isn't the case on the majority of pubs. It is almost a different game. Sure everyone there want's to win... its nice to win... it feels good... but no one there is going to bend over backwards to try and ensure that it happens. They are focusing more on having a fun game than having a winning game.
To think that a hardcore competitor might get agitated at the lack of enthusiasm or displayed skill is a huge understatement. To assume that these pubs are going to provide any kind of sustenance for their competitive thirst is outright laughable. Just about every pubber I have ever met knows that if you want the competitive experience you join up with a clan or visit in pugs and play there... it seems the only people that don't seem to grasp that concept are the hardcore competitors. IT DOESN"T WORK THE OTHER WAY AROUND SO STOP TRYING!!!
Or you could at least just recognize that you will be playing a different game when you do join up on a pub and play accordingly. To do otherwise will not only ruin your experience there, but also those around you... and as everybody knows (i hope) "THEY" are more important that "YOU". At least that's how the law of "majority rules" worked last time i checked.
I don't mean to downplay the pub experience too much though. On rare occasions you will actually get enough experience people on the server that you can start a semi-serious game and its fun (as long as everyone knows this at the outset). I'm sure if you were patient enough you would find that there are an enormous number of really good players out there on pubs... but very few of them actually care to play at their full potential all the time. NS is our PLAY time not our WORK time. If you find that statement offensive then you really need to get a life outside the game(s) you play.
In defense of pubbers: I just commanded a game of nancy. We lost, partially because there were plenty of server regulars on the alien team (including a pair of clan members). However, we all had fun and I was able to help the new players feel at home... I felt like a shepard, kinda herding the marines into the hives I wanted to control and the resource towers we needed. While we didn't display much tactical finesse, we teched up and fought tooth and nail, losing ground only inch-by-inch and fighting every step of the way.
That was a fun game, despite the fact that we lost. I felt proud of my soldiers, as they didn't seem like the kind of group that would listen to orders... but I was wrong. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Palin, what you've stated is true. What you need to realize, is that when competitive good players join a public server, the get harrassed because of their "hacks" and frankly it just gets old. Hell half the time you don't get the chance to argue before you're banned. When this happens, you move on to the next server and get the same thing. There are probably 5-6 public servers that good players are welcome on, and they are all competitive clan servers, I guarantee you. You can't even PLAY on the FAT server if you have a vet icon, at least that's the way it was last time I checked, but I'm banned from there now.
There is such a humongous skill difference between the pubber and the competitive player that it is ridiculous, but half the reason is because the pubber will always learn from the player who is talking to him, no matter who it be, instead of stopping by nsguides or nslearn to actually learn from GOOD players, it's pubbers passing down their traits. They never want to learn from the rambo, because the admin or the idiots that spec him accuse him of hacking, but of course, they are usually just some pubbers who can swear they see an aimbot because he killed a skulk in <20 bullets.
After so much, it just gets old, and you don't care. I very seldom play NS in pubs, because it's ridiculous. I only pub co, unless I have friends on ventrilo who want to pub some NS, but that's usually turns into a who gets banned first, and when I DO pub co, I have the server muted the majority of the time, and saytext disabled.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering 75% of the pubbers noobs or idiots is an aggregious overstatement of the fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The word is "egregious". =\
Yeah Prodigy I do the same thing... There's just no point to playing ns maps on public servers. It's one thing to "play for fun". It's quite another to be completely clueless and ignore people who try to help you learn the game. Think about it this way (I hate having to use this kind of analogy but just about everyone has playd this game and would understand what I mean...) some noob joins a CS server and asks "how do I buy guns". So you kindly help him out and mr noob only ever saves money and buys para. You try to give him advice but he just tells you to shut up. There are a DISTURBING number of ns pubbers who are very much like this when they're playing. People who res **** for fade and don't even use blink, or even worse go onos and try to walk in to marine start and just get torn apart. People who don't listen to their commander AT ALL. My favorites are the guys that go lerk after they've pulled in 5 res and the team doesn't even have DC's yet =\
It just got too frustrating playing on the pub I was a reg on and any time I played alien I had to gorge because all the non-regs would be whoring for higher life forms.
people who dont think this regen overflow is going to be SERIOUSLY HUGE need to get their head examined, it practically trivialises armour <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I shall explain one of the reasons in a short simple manner: If an alien has no armour and regen and is shot by the odd stray bullet its armour will not regenerate thus keeping it out of combat until it goes to heal, if the amour overflows the aliens will be healing their armour also and be able to come back into the action as much as 6 times faster than before, ph33r.
Comments
And fyi, I'm not clanning. Nor have I been for 5 months. I am a pubber in every aspect of the word. I merely get **** when I see people who lack basic common sense. There is a difference between horrible players and players who are new.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I try to get long time pubbing friends of mine to join up a clan and play competitively, and they say no, because they don't want to play with people with more pride and attitude than tact<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you sure that's the reason?
I'm not going to beat around the bush or sugar coat everything for some people just so they can sit here lieing to themselves and say they're not bad... It's just not going to happen.
On topic: I agree that if any tweaking is in place, buff them up rather than nerf them. But I don't think changes should be made strictly because people don't understand the game and how to use strategies to overcome obsticles.
Play on a different server... problem solved. I'd invite you to come to my fav server, but it is for mature NS players who want to play the game right. I dont feel you meet the first criteria.
Also... Whining and moaning on the forums DOES NOTHING. Stop crying about it and start TEACHING them. Eventually you'll get a nice crowd of regulars hanging around your favorite server.
And the rest of them have a superiority complex, insist that they are the best player on their team and subsequently refuse to cooperate with anyone. Not that that applies to you or anything.
Please don't speak for the majority or the average when you can't possibly have played regularly with more than a fraction of the playerbase. Maybe the majority of the players on your server are newbs(though probably it has more to do with your ego), but that certainly doesn't apply to everywhere. Random pub servers often have a higher newbie concentration since the majority of experienced players have already found a decent server to regular on. If that's actually a problem then try playing somewhere else. Personally, I'd rather play with a complete newbie who's willing to communicate and learn than an arrogant l33t stereotype who thinks he's too good to do anything but rambo and save for Fade.
You complain that there is no teamplay, and in the same post tell us about how you spend the entire game ramboing and being angry at your teammates because they aren't good enough? Has it occurred to you that a lack of teamplay usually has more to do with people like that than actual newbies?
Play on a different server... problem solved. I'd invite you to come to my fav server, but it is for mature NS players who want to play the game right. I dont feel you meet the first criteria.
Also... Whining and moaning on the forums DOES NOTHING. Stop crying about it and start TEACHING them. Eventually you'll get a nice crowd of regulars hanging around your favorite server. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, now aren't you full of yourself? You have pretty much everything it seems - your little community of 'mature NS players who want to play the game <i>right</i>', your fav. server, and, of course, your big ego.
Instead of writing off a person's post as 'crap' just because you don't possess the analytical ability to understand it, why don't you just not post anything at all? And do you think that you are original in repeating what is now pretty much the cliche "all talk and no action" statement? Go on and be naive about teaching the average NS player, because 'eventually' will be anywhere from several months to several years. The education that is required should be provided in the game by the development team, not through secondary and tertiary sources.
Edit: And FFS, people who think that just because their server is often full of somewhat intelligent players and who then go on to assume that this sample represents the majority of average NS players need to open their eyes. Stop daydreaming about your little utopias and go and actually get a <b>random</b> sample of average NSplayer skill before putting down Harmondo's estimation as being full of crap.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow, now aren't you full of yourself? You have pretty much everything it seems - your little community of 'mature NS players who want to play the game <i>right</i>', your fav. server, and, of course, your big ego. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because on the server i play on... everyone DOES play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Friendly helpful players full to the brim with new and interesting stratigies and tactics. The games we play are dynamic, always new, and fresh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of writing off a person's post as 'crap' just because you don't possess the analytical ability to understand it, why don't you just not post anything at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should re-read the post i replied to before you comment on MY post. Does this mean you confirmed Harmondo's amazing analytical abilities... thus allowing him to make drastic and demeaning comments on a large group of people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And do you think that you are original in repeating what is now pretty much the cliche "all talk and no action" statement? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going for originality... I'm telling him to put up and shut up or do something about it because thats what he needs to do!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Go on and be naive about educating the average NS player, because eventually' will be anywhere from several months to several years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Teaching someone the game doesn't take months! I've just watched someone entirely new to NS join the server I play on and evolve to a mediocre player under the guidence of those on the server within a week. A few answered questions later the server has a new regular!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And FFS, people who think that just because their server is often full of somewhat intelligent players and who then go on to assume that this sample represents the majority of average NS players need to open their eyes.Edit: Stop daydreaming about your little utopias and go and actually get a <b>random</b> sample of average NSplayer skill before putting down Harmondo's estimation as being full of crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh... So the sample of the alleged "idiots" on Harmondo's server was a accurate representation of the NS community?
Thats because on the server i play on... everyone DOES play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Friendly helpful players full to the brim with new and interesting stratigies and tactics. The games we play are dynamic, always new, and fresh.
Maybe you should re-read the post i replied to before you comment on MY post. Does this mean you confirmed Harmondo's amazing analytical abilities... thus allowing him to make drastic and demeaning comments on a large group of people?
I'm not going for originality... I'm telling him to put up and shut up or do something about it because thats what he needs to do!
Teaching someone the game doesn't take months! I've just watched someone entirely new to NS join the server I play on and evolve to a mediocre player under the guidence of those on the server within a week. A few answered questions later the server has a new regular!
Oh... So the sample of the alleged "idiots" on Harmondo's server was a accurate representation of the NS community? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, get your facts straight. Harmondo said that "75%+ of average pubbers suck". He did not call 75% of the community idiotic noobs, which is your false interpretation and, therefore, your problem. In reply to a later portion in your fragmented post, I have actually found a major lacking of common sense in most of the servers that I visited until I quit playing last month. Then there were many instances that went beyond a simple deficiency in common sense. You can only defend the average player to an extent until there are no excuses left. You, however, are biased in this field because you are a regular on a server where there seems to be some order.
Secondly, I am happy that you have a good server and a good community. It doesn't matter what points of reference for 'good' or 'right' that you use to gauge your server and the play on it. However, using these as crutches to put down another player (and I quote you: "I dont feel you meet the first criteria") makes you a bigot in my eyes. So is giving the statement of 'put up or shut up'. Harmondo gave his opinion for discussion of the matter in question, which is one valid use of these forums.
Finally, the basic education of a player that wants to learn is not difficult. What is difficult is to find players willing to learn. They are considerably rare. It is even more difficult to convince these players to hang around the same server, unless you already have an established community. Beyond basic learning is what really matters: i.e. developing good movement, common sense, the ability to think while on one's feet. Some players never learn, while for others it takes anywhere between a few months to more than a year to grasp the concepts of smart play.
This having been said, IMO more than 75% of the entire NS community play horribly when it comes to actual tactical and strategical play. I would estimate the percentage to be at around 87%. Teaching tactical and strategical play takes lots of time and effort. Often, the average pubber would not even be dedicated enough to want to learn the concepts of advanced play. Harmondo is a hardcore player and, unfortunately, the majority of average pub servers simply lack for such a calibre of play.
1) I have no server
2) I have played on nearly every [us] server out there that isn't password protected for the past year +. So I feel my "representation" of the NS community is pretty damn good.
And "alleged idiots"? Excuse me?
You must be smoking crack because for you to believe they are something other than that would be down right absurd.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You complain that there is no teamplay, and in the same post tell us about how you spend the entire game ramboing and being angry at your teammates because they aren't good enough?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much. Thanks for pointing that out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has it occurred to you that a lack of teamplay usually has more to do with people like that than actual newbies?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thought had crossed my mind... /me whipes away a trickling tear. But no. I think you're wrong there.
Keep the flames comin guys. There's enough room here for everyone who wants to stray off topic until it inevitably gets locked.
edit* to quote a wise man: "drama++" "gg I win"
Every server has its share of idiots. The difference is how well they're administrated. Servers that don't do anything about these people are going to have a higher concentration of them than those that do; as more players realize this and regular on servers with admins, the worse servers start to have more of the worse players. If you don't like it, pick a server and stick with it. Observations made based only on the conclusions you drew about your teammates on completely random pub servers are NOT an accurate representation of the entire community.
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As luck of the draw would have it, 75%+ of average pubbers suck. Ya, who would have guessed, surely not me. They are mentally defective in nearly every aspect imaginable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well darn... he did say they sucked... Your right. Wait... whats that? The rest of his post!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate playing aliens for the sole reason that I hate having to depend on my team which, as mentioned above, is primarily composed of <b>idiots</b> who don't know how to play the game and <i>have no intentions of ever learning.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because round after round after round I get stuck with the same crap, a team full of children who I feel like I need to baby sit for them to accomplish anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no team when 75% of the players don't know jack about jack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harmondo+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harmondo)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And to a new or semi-new player in ns... "wow, those aliens look mighty interesting. Hey, I'ma give 'em a try." I'ts like a giant nub fest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Geee... I wonder where i got my "false interpretation" of Harmondo's post. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Harmondo gave his opinion for discussion of the matter in question, which is one valid use of these forums. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ability to voice an opinion doesn't give a free ticket to bash a large group of people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, the basic education of a player that wants to learn is not difficult. What is difficult is to find players willing to learn. They are considerably rare. It is even more difficult to convince these players to hang around the same server, unless you already have an established community. Beyond basic learning is what really matters: i.e. developing good movement, common sense, the ability to think while on one's feet. Some players never learn, while for others it takes anywhere between a few months to more than a year to grasp the concepts of smart play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea we cant force people to learn... but if they are <i>purposely</i> staying blind to all game mechanics it is usually because their only goal in playing that game is to ruin it for others. Those people are usually delt with by kicking or (if they persist) banning. Keep those interested... keep the rest out. This doesn't mean kicking all whose names are "NSPlayer(X)". It means keeping the atmosphere light hearted and be responsive to any/all questions. Heck, you could provoke questions by simply asking the player "why are you attacking as gorge?" or "why did you just run right at the marine?" And then follow that up with a few hints or tips.
You may call it Egotistical or being a bigot... I call it progress.
The second part appears out of context as it does not refer to the process of learning advanced play.
That's what happens when you take quotations out of context. Very convenient.
Natural Selection has always been a hard game to learn. However, in earlier versions of the mod, the Kharaa usually knew what they were doing more than the marines, because the in game system usually convinced new players to learn marines first.
Kharaa players typically had more experience than marine players, and used their advantages as much as possible. However, as later versions came, the appeal of NS got wider, and the versions got more "noob friendly," meaning that the aliens have been nerfed to allow noob marines to do better AND allow noob aliens to better control their classes.
So, a more noob friendly game means that more noobs are willing to try the various aspects of the game out. The problem is that, in their current state, Kharaa are forced to have an extreme reliance on resources while being forced to work more as a team while having to deal with extensively nerfed abilities. Yes, a good Kharaa team can win, provided that the marine team is equal to or below in skill and team size.
*Edit* Don't forget that the Kharaa have no chance of coming back once they start losing. Most games get decided in the first 5-10 minutes now, and that's an overestimation. So, no fun playing Kharaa in classic.**
That's what happens when you take quotations out of context. Very convenient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YOU put THOSE quote in context and make it seem like he isn't calling people idiots and nubs... go ahead, try... I'm watching.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second part appears out of context as it does not refer to the process of learning advanced play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
learning advanced play is up to the player himself. All the community owes them is a introduction to the basics. If the player wants to compete competatively (clans) he would learn himself or join a clan... who would teach the player themselves.
I hate playing aliens for the sole reason that I hate having to depend on my team which, as mentioned above, is primarily composed of idiots who don't know how to play the game and have no intentions of ever learning. They are the ones that cry hacks every time someone can whoop their **** because they don't know how to dodge. Because round after round after round I get stuck with the same crap, a team full of children who I feel like I need to baby sit for them to accomplish anything. Now tell me something, how fun is that? Not very.
<b>Not</b> simply because skulks suck.
Now to address the rambo-ing: 95% of the time I play, I rambo. Why? Because I can accomplish more by myself, than having to baby sit 2 or 3 marines who wish to stalk me around the map. All they do is get in the way. Ever time I try to dodge, BOOM! there's a teammate in my way. So I die. Every time I call for ammo, there's another marine there to take it even though he's one clip short of being full. Or taking a medpack even though he has 92 health after being parasited. And don't you just love trying to bite a marine only to have another skulk who couldn't aim to save his life tries desperately to get in your way and get the kill, only to block you from killing that marine, and inevitably get both of you killed? This list could go on forever.
Yes, some can argue that NS is a "team" based game. I say that's a crock, especially on pubs. There <i>is</i> no "team". There is no team when 75% of the players don't know jack about jack. If you really want to solve this problem -- <b>EDUCATE THE AVERAGE NS PLAYER!!!!!!!!! </b>
Sorry to have to break this to you, but the average NSPlayer doesn't know a hive under attack from a chair turned upside down with the legs high in the air that he sat on to help himself get off. They don't know how to ambush; they don't know how to dodge; hell... they don't even know not to get upgrades every time they die as a skulk, but they do it anyway.
That is the reason a single rambo can do so much damage to a team. None of the aliens know what's going on. And to a new or semi-new player in ns... "wow, those aliens look mighty interesting. Hey, I'ma give 'em a try." I'ts like a giant nub fest. Even in cs, the average player can grasp the basics of the game. Yes there are a few stray hairs here and there. But the majority know what's going on. CS: plant the bomb as t, try to defuse the bomb as ct, don't use dualies if you don't want to get your **** beat, etc... NS: kill the marines, protect the hives/cc, put up hives/res/structures, kill the cc/hive. There are positives and negatives to all classes and weapons in NS. That is why it's a RTS. People need to learn how to play the game.
Maybe I'm just the loan ranger here and am the only one who feels this way... but I doubt it.
And as Forlorn mentioned, much of it also has to do with the current maps in rotation. Half of them are complete jokes, both for competitive play and pubs.
*There are plenty of dead ends and redundant sentences in this thread... don't strain yourself in trying to figure them out. Just skip past them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is precisely why I only play combat nowadays
No teamwork, and the balance is pretty close to regular NS in terms of balance, and way more fun.
When I joined my first 1.02 game, sure, I knew very little about tactics and strategies in the game. My first command win came in the late era of 2.01, long after my first games. However, in my first games, I did had a grasp of my role on the battlefield. I knew to follow waypoints, to build structures, and defend otherwise emptied posts (with my sad inability to aim). As an alien, I stuck with the big boys and saw how they played. And that laid the foundation for how I currently play NS as a strategic operation. I know that not every NS player is going to be like me, but can we pretty please use that little example as a model of how things COULD work (whether you believe that I started this way or not)?
I think the problem is the pessimistic attitude among certain people. It's OK to admit that many people on pubs are noobs. But venturing to bash them as complete idiots and them give up on them is the wrong thing to do. The developers are working hard on their end of the job, the resources are out there to get started. Let's get started on our end of the deal.
Well that's just the issue, isn't it? If you are a top-notch player and play in a public server where advanced play (which is what makes a difference between winning and losing) is almost non-existent, then you may get quite frustrated. This is where Harmondo is coming from.
Don't go off saying that this should happen as there is a greater investment in the phase network, a beacon or the shotguns to counter the costs of the Fades since 1 kharaa res != 1 marine res. Marine res is pooled, and thus, has a lower value than the individually siphoned kharaa res. What good is 60 res in a kharaa team when they are spread in 10 res allotments? A gorge or maybe a few rapid deaths with an upgrade as a skulk. What good is 60 marine res? 30 med packs, 6 shotguns, an upgrade or two, motion tracking, a small phase outpost, 4 HMGs or even perhaps one or two fully equipped members of a HA train, which is the bare minimum for a self-sufficient squad mind you, just to mention a few options.
Ever since 1.0x, the main advantage and flaw of the Hive sight was determined to be the fact that it only responds to enemy attacks. Ninja sieges became rather common as the entire marine team minus one goes around raising a ruckus on the hive sight while letting one marine slip by since it's just 'background noise'. Loosing a hive is a MASSIVE blow and it can be achieved in litterally 5 seconds after the first 'Hive is under attack' signal.
May the powers that be help the kharaa team if that rambo marine sneaking around, placing forward positions has ungodly aim, since he could pick off skulks with a quick 5 bullet barrage from the pistol.
This leads to my second main gripe. Marines can attack by using an 'offensive defense', mainly, the siege turrets. Hold and defend a position long enough and you will be able to attack with absolute safety. The kharaa already have the dodgy end of the stick when it comes to base breaking, and this offensive defense ability makes them have to use their weakness. Gorge Bilebomb when the gorge is taken out like crazy, Onos which is only really powerful when it has stomp but gets taken down by a pack of shotguns and HMGs which arrive at around the same time as it does, and the fact that it has to attack a DEFENSIVE POSITION, which is often enclosed, easy to guard and full of flying pieces of metal. Needless to say, the skulks needs blessings from the pope to be able to contribute much since they can no long ambush, as so many people have quickly responded as their specialty when others complain that the marines own the skulks.
No meaning to offend anyone but you have to think about this problem. You set in your mind that the Skulk is a scout unit, and is thus not supposed to be relied upon for assaults, yet, as they are the base unit it would appear logical that they would have to be able to be fairly well rounded when it comes to their tasks.
When it comes to the crunch and the hive is being seiged, you don't have the time to pop into an egg for 10-15 seconds and pop out as a Fade. Nor would you necessarily have the resources to do such a thing. What do you do then? Attack the second you get the opportunity to do so, as a SKULK, a SCOUT UNIT. Sure, you could grab carapace that gives you, 40-50 more effective HP but what does that matter when a 10 res shotgun that is avaliable from the beginning of the game blasts you to bits with a direct bullseye as you close in for the attack?
Sure, if it was the 2nd complete hive that was being attacked, you're in a better position to be wielding perhaps 2-3 Fades and maybe a few lerks as well. But by the same token, they would also have HMGs, grenade launchers and the HA is in the works.
I've rambled and ranted long enough.
The marine rambo itself is not the main problem.. Rather, it's a sign of a much larger problem.
Watch exigent play aliens and you'll think aliens are overpowered. Then watch them play marines and you'll think marines are overpowered <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Public servers are just that, public. Anyone with an internet connection and a half-life cd key can play on them. Teamwork is more or less nonexistent on every single public server in the world. Would you go to a billiards hall and watch random people playing pool (and missing many shots) and say "omg the pockets should be bigger"? No, I would hope not. For real stop whining about ns balance based on public servers. I dare someone to go to a bunch of public servers and ask people on them which side is stronger <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
3 different races, but still very much balanced. You have more than your fair share of morons on battle net, but Starcraft is still healthy for both competitive play and 'pubbing'
No, the players aren't broken, the game is. While it's much harder to try and balance 2 completely different races on an FPS game, it's still possible.
In the end, it's really not about balancing, it's about having fun. And pubbing on aliens is not fun.
The marines do not choose. The commander is the marine backbone. They trust and expect the commander to give them upgrades, armor, weapons, health, ammo, and a common goal. The marines work as a unit because of the commander. There is quite a bit of unity.
The only thing that gave the Kharaa counter-balance was the sheer power of the individual unit. A good Onos could saunter in to a marine outpost, kill the marines, and take the whole base down. He would have 1-2 units helping him out, but he'd be doing the real work, taking the brunt of the bullets and killing the most in return. Then, he was nerfed. He was downgraded to a "hit and run" unit, something that realistically does not work.
Pub alien play doesn't work. There is no unity and there is not enough sheer force behind any alien class (except fade) to allow a rambo alien to turn the tide. This is the developer's fault. They've made a great game, and then they made a mistake in this version. That's fine...I'm sure that things like BUS and some good patches could resolve much of this.
The player make the biggest part of the balance when ppl see a vet icon they stack the team not just marine team but alien too...
3 different races, but still very much balanced. You have more than your fair share of morons on battle net, but Starcraft is still healthy for both competitive play and 'pubbing'
No, the players aren't broken, the game is. While it's much harder to try and balance 2 completely different races on an FPS game, it's still possible.
In the end, it's really not about balancing, it's about having fun. And pubbing on aliens is not fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not fun if it doesn't have a half-decent balance
You're forgetting that only a few people can fade on a pub. When those fades die within the minute, it makes the players who dropped the DCs and RTs pretty frustrated.
I'm not blaming the developers for the balance; it would be unfair and unjust as they have made a great game. However, based on from what I've heard (I'm relatively new to NS, joined in 3.0) is that there are very little recourse for balancing since:
Maps have quite a long period for development and map design becomes a balance issue when you scale the number of players on the server.
Clan and Public play unit stats stay the same.
Basically, to 'balance' NS, you have to either sacrifice public or clan play assuming that the two facts above stay constant, since the vast majority of public servers have very little coordination and hence, many srategies and conveniences can be impossible to realize.
Ironic no? usually those players forced to build could have taken that fade to the end of the game, but asshats decide "We dont need no none res nodes!"
Considering 75% of the pubbers noobs or idiots is an egregious overstatement of the fact. The fact is that 75% of pubbers display skill that would seem laughable when compared to the skill of say.... a hardened regular clanner in pugs and tourneys. In these competitive games it is obvious that everyone's main goal is to do everything in their power to ensure victory. This simply isn't the case on the majority of pubs. It is almost a different game. Sure everyone there want's to win... its nice to win... it feels good... but no one there is going to bend over backwards to try and ensure that it happens. They are focusing more on having a fun game than having a winning game.
To think that a hardcore competitor might get agitated at the lack of enthusiasm or displayed skill is a huge understatement. To assume that these pubs are going to provide any kind of sustenance for their competitive thirst is outright laughable. Just about every pubber I have ever met knows that if you want the competitive experience you join up with a clan or visit in pugs and play there... it seems the only people that don't seem to grasp that concept are the hardcore competitors. IT DOESN"T WORK THE OTHER WAY AROUND SO STOP TRYING!!!
Or you could at least just recognize that you will be playing a different game when you do join up on a pub and play accordingly. To do otherwise will not only ruin your experience there, but also those around you... and as everybody knows (i hope) "THEY" are more important that "YOU". At least that's how the law of "majority rules" worked last time i checked.
I don't mean to downplay the pub experience too much though. On rare occasions you will actually get enough experience people on the server that you can start a semi-serious game and its fun (as long as everyone knows this at the outset). I'm sure if you were patient enough you would find that there are an enormous number of really good players out there on pubs... but very few of them actually care to play at their full potential all the time. NS is our PLAY time not our WORK time. If you find that statement offensive then you really need to get a life outside the game(s) you play.
EDIT: sp. Thanks altairian.
That was a fun game, despite the fact that we lost. I felt proud of my soldiers, as they didn't seem like the kind of group that would listen to orders... but I was wrong. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Palin, what you've stated is true. What you need to realize, is that when competitive good players join a public server, the get harrassed because of their "hacks" and frankly it just gets old. Hell half the time you don't get the chance to argue before you're banned. When this happens, you move on to the next server and get the same thing. There are probably 5-6 public servers that good players are welcome on, and they are all competitive clan servers, I guarantee you. You can't even PLAY on the FAT server if you have a vet icon, at least that's the way it was last time I checked, but I'm banned from there now.
There is such a humongous skill difference between the pubber and the competitive player that it is ridiculous, but half the reason is because the pubber will always learn from the player who is talking to him, no matter who it be, instead of stopping by nsguides or nslearn to actually learn from GOOD players, it's pubbers passing down their traits. They never want to learn from the rambo, because the admin or the idiots that spec him accuse him of hacking, but of course, they are usually just some pubbers who can swear they see an aimbot because he killed a skulk in <20 bullets.
After so much, it just gets old, and you don't care. I very seldom play NS in pubs, because it's ridiculous. I only pub co, unless I have friends on ventrilo who want to pub some NS, but that's usually turns into a who gets banned first, and when I DO pub co, I have the server muted the majority of the time, and saytext disabled.
The word is "egregious". =\
Yeah Prodigy I do the same thing... There's just no point to playing ns maps on public servers.
It's one thing to "play for fun". It's quite another to be completely clueless and ignore people who try to help you learn the game. Think about it this way (I hate having to use this kind of analogy but just about everyone has playd this game and would understand what I mean...) some noob joins a CS server and asks "how do I buy guns". So you kindly help him out and mr noob only ever saves money and buys para. You try to give him advice but he just tells you to shut up. There are a DISTURBING number of ns pubbers who are very much like this when they're playing. People who res **** for fade and don't even use blink, or even worse go onos and try to walk in to marine start and just get torn apart. People who don't listen to their commander AT ALL. My favorites are the guys that go lerk after they've pulled in 5 res and the team doesn't even have DC's yet =\
It just got too frustrating playing on the pub I was a reg on and any time I played alien I had to gorge because all the non-regs would be whoring for higher life forms.
I shall explain one of the reasons in a short simple manner: If an alien has no armour and regen and is shot by the odd stray bullet its armour will not regenerate thus keeping it out of combat until it goes to heal, if the amour overflows the aliens will be healing their armour also and be able to come back into the action as much as 6 times faster than before, ph33r.