ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
As an onos I can take on two shotgunners with no problem. Run around corner, devour one, gore another. Don't tackle multiple shotgunners unless the terrain is to your advantage. This advice applies to all aliens of course.
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 21 2004, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 21 2004, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't tackle multiple shotgunners unless the terrain is to your advantage. This advice applies to all aliens of course. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Stomp changes this... 2 shotty users are easy as pie (mmmm pie) with stomp. Hive 1 onos should RUN from 2 shotgun users, luck is never on your side as a hive 1 onos.
In my opinion the shotgun should be a way to deliver multiple lmg bullets at the same time. The damage should be (# of pellets) * (LMG bullet dmg at that level).
The number of pellets should of course be increased / decreased as nessasary. However, the curret damage of the shotgun is ridiculous for 1 pt / 10 res. It should do 150 damage at lvl 3.
The spread should also be made more compact and the range increased by a tiny bit.
----------------------------------------
Since the above change would nerf the most powerful weapon in the rine arsenal (its true idiots), I propose the following change to the HMG:
Reduce HMG bullet damage by 20%. HMGs do full damage to structures once again.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
edited July 2004
How compact are we talking about? We still need to be able to kill a non-cara skulk in one shotty blast. Right now, with the current spread it's hard to get more 5 or 6 pellets into a skulk at once. That's barley enough to kill the skulk. What you're suggesting, with 150 damage at level3, means at level0, each pellet only does about 11.5 damage. To kill a skulk at hive 1 with a level0 shotty would require 9 out of 10 those pellets to hit. The spread better be small enough, or the amount of pellets increased, but then, that'd increase the damage beyond 150.
Also, you have to consider what this does to the marines' ability to destroy buildings. GLs usually aren't avaialable until late in the game, and admit it, they're rarely handed out as it is unless under certain strict circumstances. Perhaps make shotties deal 1.5x damage to buildings, or remove the 1/2 penalty that HMGs get against buildings, or marines will have a much harder time in Classic, and never win CO.
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 21 2004, 07:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 21 2004, 07:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How compact are we talking about? We still need to be able to kill a non-cara skulk in one shotty blast. Right now, with the current spread it's hard to get more 5 or 6 pellets into a skulk at once. That's barley enough to kill the skulk. What you're suggesting, with 150 damage at level3, means at level0, each pellet only does about 11.5 damage. To kill a skulk at hive 1 with a level0 shotty would require 9 out of 10 those pellets to hit. The spread better be small enough, or the amount of pellets increased, but then, that'd increase the damage beyond 150. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Right now you can get 3-5 in a skulk at mid range if you have the fixed pellet Xhairs. The "current spread" isn't really something we should go off of since thats the whole problem in the first place (Half of the spread goes to the same spot).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps make shotties deal 1.5x damage to buildings<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns are FINE vs buildings. Remember... they tear up alien lifeforms as well as destroy buildings.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Yes, right NOW they're fine, but the suggested nerf of about 32% damage reduction would make a drastic difference in the SG's abilities to kill buildings.
Who cares about the marines ability to destroy buildings? <b>WHY SHOULD THE MARINES BE THE ONLY ONES ABLE TO DESTROY DEFENSES EARLY GAME? HUH!?</b>
This is freaking idiotic.
Commander can make a turret farm wherever he wishes and it's nearly skulkproof. Gorge waddles around and drops a superexpensive OC that does worse then a turret does and everyone sceams it's unbalanced.
Seriously, what the hell are you thinking? OCs are inferior, utter crap: marines have NO NEED for a way to destroy them - WHAT DO YOU THINK AN LMG DOES - SHOOT SILLY STRING?
A skulk stands no chance at destroying a turret farm. But an LMG marine can destroy a wall of lame given enough ammo and time.
This is RETARDED - There is absolutely NO NEED for the shotguns ability to destroy buildings. Unless you plan on making bilebomb hive 1, that is.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
edited July 2004
I rarely ever drop turrets when I command. They are near useless, and the require a turret factory to function.
If you see a comm drop turrets early game, then you should thank the lucky stars. The comm just won the game for the aliens.
Yes, the comm can make a turret farm whenever he wants to lose the game for the marines.
OCs and Turrets are balanced because they are both equally useless. If you don't understand this, you need to try commanding against good aliens.
EDIT: A skulk, given regeneration/gorge healing support, and given enough time, can destory a turret farm. Turret farms/OC farms aren't designed to defend places by themselves. Do you understand this concept? Add a skulk or two to help the OCs, and suddenly the marine isn't scary anymore. Same thing wiutht he aliens. Turret farms, no matter how well placed and how many turrets there are, will get taken down if left alone.
<!--QuoteBegin-Psi57+Jul 22 2004, 07:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psi57 @ Jul 22 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Getting back to the main point:
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The current (220 damage uber cannon) shotgun is total ****!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The shotgun cant do less damage... It's main point is it's stopping power. If you nerf the shotgun's damage anymore, it becomes a crappy inaccurate LMG.
<!--QuoteBegin-Psi57+Jul 22 2004, 07:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psi57 @ Jul 22 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Getting back to the main point:
<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>The current (220 damage uber cannon) shotgun is total ****!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's lv. 3 weapons
SG is fine, it's useful but not overpowered over the GL (spash damage) or HMG (Range, raw power and huge clip), yet is better than the two in individual ways as it can be used in both situations, and is cheap, but has limited range and can only hit one structure at a time.
the only thing that needs to be changed to make the shotgun a bit more likeable (from a balance standpoint anyways) in my opinion is the randomized shot pattern being random, pack in two more pellets, and increase skulk armor. I am actually of the opinion that the skulk should not be killed in one hit with the shotty when carapace is on (except for the case of a full load in the face). Currently a little over half of the pellets hitting their mark is lethal and only a few more for a carapaced skulk to die. Not to mention that the number is further decreased as shotty approaches lvl 3.
Basically I want the shotty to be about as lethal close range as a skulk would be and about as lethal at long range as the skulk would be. The shotty can still be the uber cheap structure killer (especially with two more pellets in each shot) but because of the randomized spray (and very possibly a widening of the cone) would make people think twice before using it against a fade or onos. That's what the HMG was supposed to be for, right?.
<!--QuoteBegin-Psi57+Jul 23 2004, 10:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Psi57 @ Jul 23 2004, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 10 res and 2 shells (free) to kill a 50 res lifeform is not "fine". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why it takes 3-4, and up to 5 direct hits depending on both sides upgrages.
1 sg, lv 1 weps,? 10 for the shotty, 10 for the armory, 25 for the arms lab, 20 for the upgrade.. 65 res to get that first shotty out, which will not be able to trade hits and win against a half decent player who's gone fade.
Try this crazy thing I like to call "blink," it works wonders.
Blink is **** nowadays and you know it - it's hardly an evasion method anymore since all it is is a slightly nerfed 'leap'.
MY solution to the shotgun is and always will be the same:
Make it do 'light' damage.
Make it do 'piercing' damage.
That means it'll do half damage to onos and structures, and still be effective against smaller lifeforms. Seriously, even if I had all day it'd take an eternity to destroy a truck with a shotgun: Buckshot has absolutely no piercing qualities at all.
I even think it should do 'light' damage to fades as well - it's really funny how no one really uses HMGs anymore since a marine team that can aim will do more damage with shotguns that cost half as much. I was in cargo room on Tanith and killed nine skulks in a row with a shotgun (damn lucky I was though).
As for whomever said anything about some critters randomly doing half damage to HAs - You ever see skulks take on an HA train? It's not pretty.
The shotgun could use a randomized spread. Also the shotgun is what holds the marine team over until the HMG's come out. Nerf it againt fades to half damage and it makes early fades even more deadly.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-|999|Hydralisk+Jul 23 2004, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|999|Hydralisk @ Jul 23 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The shotgun could use a randomized spread. Also the shotgun is what holds the marine team over until the HMG's come out. Nerf it againt fades to half damage and it makes early fades even more deadly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> are you joking? thats like taking marines their pants of <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What I meant is that EEK said that it should do half damage to onos and fades. And that I said its the only thing that holds the marines over. Don't nerf it other then random spread and I'm good.
<!--QuoteBegin-|999|Hydralisk+Jul 23 2004, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|999|Hydralisk @ Jul 23 2004, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What I meant is that EEK said that it should do half damage to onos and fades. And that I said its the only thing that holds the marines over. Don't nerf it other then random spread and I'm good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually if the SG had a randomized spread it wouldn't be quite as good against onos so that might be all the nerfing it ever needed.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
edited July 2004
EEK, I hate to say this, but you don't know what you're talking about, at all. Why don't you go practice blinking for a few months and then come back? I die more to LMGs and HMGs than I do to shotguns. Blink = GODLY
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 22 2004, 10:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 22 2004, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Agreed. However, how do you feel about either lowering its rte of fire a bit, or making it cost a bit more resources? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ROF yes... cost more no.
A slower ROF would mean actual shot placement occurs... and that a few skulks actually could take the shotgunner if he is alone (one skulk taking the first shot, the other getting the kill) and would encourage even shotgunners to stay in packs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crappy old+ outdated NS manual--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crappy old @ outdated NS manual)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"One marine is at a disadvantage against one alien. But a Frontiersman is rarely alone."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Jul 23 2004, 06:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Jul 23 2004, 06:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> shotguns can die to skulks but fade dont die to lmgs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your comparing a 50 (alien) res creature with a 10 res marine weapon.
Perhaps the shotgun could have a damage modifier based on range:
10 feet or less = 100% damage* 10-20 Feet = 75% damage* 20+ feet = 50% damage *
That way skulks have the ability to get close to the shotgunner (and have a chance to catch him between shots) without dying. It would also reflect the shotgun's deadliness at close range.
*These are just ideas. All numbers subject to major adjustment.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Well that other person's point is that it's reasonable for a 0 res lifeforms to have a chance at killing a 10 res marine while it is less reasonable for a 0 res marine to take on a 50 res fade and win by himself.
Comments
Stomp changes this... 2 shotty users are easy as pie (mmmm pie) with stomp. Hive 1 onos should RUN from 2 shotgun users, luck is never on your side as a hive 1 onos.
The number of pellets should of course be increased / decreased as nessasary. However, the curret damage of the shotgun is ridiculous for 1 pt / 10 res. It should do 150 damage at lvl 3.
The spread should also be made more compact and the range increased by a tiny bit.
----------------------------------------
Since the above change would nerf the most powerful weapon in the rine arsenal (its true idiots), I propose the following change to the HMG:
Reduce HMG bullet damage by 20%.
HMGs do full damage to structures once again.
----------------------------------------
Problems solved.
Also, you have to consider what this does to the marines' ability to destroy buildings. GLs usually aren't avaialable until late in the game, and admit it, they're rarely handed out as it is unless under certain strict circumstances. Perhaps make shotties deal 1.5x damage to buildings, or remove the 1/2 penalty that HMGs get against buildings, or marines will have a much harder time in Classic, and never win CO.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right now you can get 3-5 in a skulk at mid range if you have the fixed pellet Xhairs. The "current spread" isn't really something we should go off of since thats the whole problem in the first place (Half of the spread goes to the same spot).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Perhaps make shotties deal 1.5x damage to buildings<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns are FINE vs buildings. Remember... they tear up alien lifeforms as well as destroy buildings.
Anyhow, I also support having a random spread.
This is freaking idiotic.
Commander can make a turret farm wherever he wishes and it's nearly skulkproof. Gorge waddles around and drops a superexpensive OC that does worse then a turret does and everyone sceams it's unbalanced.
Seriously, what the hell are you thinking? OCs are inferior, utter crap: marines have NO NEED for a way to destroy them - WHAT DO YOU THINK AN LMG DOES - SHOOT SILLY STRING?
A skulk stands no chance at destroying a turret farm. But an LMG marine can destroy a wall of lame given enough ammo and time.
This is RETARDED - There is absolutely NO NEED for the shotguns ability to destroy buildings. Unless you plan on making bilebomb hive 1, that is.
If you see a comm drop turrets early game, then you should thank the lucky stars. The comm just won the game for the aliens.
Yes, the comm can make a turret farm whenever he wants to lose the game for the marines.
OCs and Turrets are balanced because they are both equally useless. If you don't understand this, you need to try commanding against good aliens.
EDIT: A skulk, given regeneration/gorge healing support, and given enough time, can destory a turret farm. Turret farms/OC farms aren't designed to defend places by themselves. Do you understand this concept? Add a skulk or two to help the OCs, and suddenly the marine isn't scary anymore. Same thing wiutht he aliens. Turret farms, no matter how well placed and how many turrets there are, will get taken down if left alone.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The current (220 damage uber cannon) shotgun is total ****!</span>
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The current (220 damage uber cannon) shotgun is total ****!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun cant do less damage... It's main point is it's stopping power. If you nerf the shotgun's damage anymore, it becomes a crappy inaccurate LMG.
<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>The current (220 damage uber cannon) shotgun is total ****!</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's lv. 3 weapons
SG is fine, it's useful but not overpowered over the GL (spash damage) or HMG (Range, raw power and huge clip), yet is better than the two in individual ways as it can be used in both situations, and is cheap, but has limited range and can only hit one structure at a time.
Basically I want the shotty to be about as lethal close range as a skulk would be and about as lethal at long range as the skulk would be. The shotty can still be the uber cheap structure killer (especially with two more pellets in each shot) but because of the randomized spray (and very possibly a widening of the cone) would make people think twice before using it against a fade or onos. That's what the HMG was supposed to be for, right?.
That's why it takes 3-4, and up to 5 direct hits depending on both sides upgrages.
1 sg, lv 1 weps,? 10 for the shotty, 10 for the armory, 25 for the arms lab, 20 for the upgrade.. 65 res to get that first shotty out, which will not be able to trade hits and win against a half decent player who's gone fade.
Try this crazy thing I like to call "blink," it works wonders.
MY solution to the shotgun is and always will be the same:
Make it do 'light' damage.
Make it do 'piercing' damage.
That means it'll do half damage to onos and structures, and still be effective against smaller lifeforms. Seriously, even if I had all day it'd take an eternity to destroy a truck with a shotgun: Buckshot has absolutely no piercing qualities at all.
I even think it should do 'light' damage to fades as well - it's really funny how no one really uses HMGs anymore since a marine team that can aim will do more damage with shotguns that cost half as much. I was in cargo room on Tanith and killed nine skulks in a row with a shotgun (damn lucky I was though).
As for whomever said anything about some critters randomly doing half damage to HAs - You ever see skulks take on an HA train? It's not pretty.
Also the shotgun is what holds the marine team over until the HMG's come out. Nerf it againt fades to half damage and it makes early fades even more deadly.
Also the shotgun is what holds the marine team over until the HMG's come out. Nerf it againt fades to half damage and it makes early fades even more deadly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you joking? thats like taking marines their pants of <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
but half-damage against onos is still a good idea
Actually if the SG had a randomized spread it wouldn't be quite as good against onos so that might be all the nerfing it ever needed.
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
I guess not.
Random spread would be good, damage alterations not so good.
ROF yes... cost more no.
A slower ROF would mean actual shot placement occurs... and that a few skulks actually could take the shotgunner if he is alone (one skulk taking the first shot, the other getting the kill) and would encourage even shotgunners to stay in packs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crappy old+ outdated NS manual--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crappy old @ outdated NS manual)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"One marine is at a disadvantage against one alien. But a Frontiersman is rarely alone."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your comparing a 50 (alien) res creature with a 10 res marine weapon.
<span style='color:white'>Cut the drama.</span>
10 feet or less = 100% damage*
10-20 Feet = 75% damage*
20+ feet = 50% damage *
That way skulks have the ability to get close to the shotgunner (and have a chance to catch him between shots) without dying. It would also reflect the shotgun's deadliness at close range.
*These are just ideas. All numbers subject to major adjustment.