<!--QuoteBegin-|999|Hydralisk+Jul 23 2004, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|999|Hydralisk @ Jul 23 2004, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What I meant is that EEK said that it should do half damage to onos and fades. And that I said its the only thing that holds the marines over. Don't nerf it other then random spread and I'm good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades come about the same time HMGs should - 3 minutes to upgrade armory, maybe a minute or so more you'll see fades. A shotgun as a 'fade counter' available at any time is vast overkill.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
But not everybody upgrades the armory the moment its built. Some people try different paths. HMGs are better counters, yes, but shotties need to be able to take on higher lifeforms or else they will never be used.
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Jul 24 2004, 04:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 24 2004, 04:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But not everybody upgrades the armory the moment its built. Some people try different paths. HMGs are better counters, yes, but shotties need to be able to take on higher lifeforms or else they will never be used. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sometimes aliens won't fade until well past the five minute mark, so shotguns are still overkill then. Make the marines change their strategy.
Also here's what I don't get:
1) You say that HMGs are a better counter to big lifeforms. I only somewhat agree, but they're also great fun to use. I would say that currently the shotgun is better against big lifeforms, simply because you're not only saving yourself the cost of upgrading the armory, but you're saving 10 res per gun as well.
The HMG is good against Onos in particular, since it requires the better part of its magazine to deal most damage - a fade usually won't stick around long for that. The shotgun however, deals its damage in one huge wallop - this means that if you had 3 seconds of firing time before the critter eats you, you're better off with the shotgun since you'll deal more damage in that time. We've tricked onos with pistols more then once, then all drew shotguns and blew him to pieces.
But I digress: You say the HMG is better against large lifeforms, then say that shotguns still should be strong to take on larger lifeforms.
How does that make sense? That's like saying skulks should deal double damage to Heavy Armors since 'sometimes aliens try different paths'. Aliens are almost always stuck in the exact same tech path every single game - I think the marines could survive with their anti-large-lifeform counter requiring SOME investment of resources.
2) I generally see shotguns used just as much in the early game as the late game - the power to instagib skulks and nearly kill gorges is a great ability, and will significantly slow down the aliens advancement. Also considering that should the marines manage to get into the hive undetected (or with minimal resistance) they can just sit there and instagib you as you spawn until they run out of bullets. Hell, they can even turn their guns on the hive and kill it faster then the same resource investment in siege cannons would.
For 10 res, plus 15 or whatever the hell an armory costs, I don't think they should have the power to put down any structure in their way in just a few seconds, or have that same power against nearly every lifeform - that's just too much - Even the HMG that costs twice as much and requires a 3 minute, resource-intensive armory upgrade has a long reload and does poorly against structures, and it's only somewhat better against lifeforms.
The shotgun has no counter whatsoever.
LMGs run out of ammo quickly and aren't the most painful weapon in the world. HMGs don't really do much to structures, chew through ammo quickly, and have a long reload. Grenade launchers have very low ammo, can be difficult to use, and generally won't be too effective trying to peg skulks with it. The siege cannon requires a turret factory to be upgraded, and doesn't target lifeforms.
The shotgun's reload is fast - the fact that it can be interrupted and fired is not a very funny joke - the shotgun is very strong against both lifeforms and structures - the shotgun is the absolute cheapest and most accessible upgraded weapon - the shotgun has the lowest speed penalty for an upgraded weapon - the shotgun. Even the so-called 'range restriction' isn't much of a restriction, since the aliens are, MELEE BASED and have not a single ranged attack that is somewhat effective.
The only possible shotgun counter I can think of lies in it's 'relatively' slow rate of fire, but a twitchy, jumpy marine with a good eye can usually make quick work of even two skulks nipping at his ankles. Unlike the LMG where you stand almost zero chance of killing more then three skulks in a single magazine, the shotgun can easilly (and I've done it, but I'll be the first to say I'm not the greatest aim in the world - I was having a phenomenal day) kill a single skulk for each shell it has chambered. It just takes a good aim and one tap of the mouse. The LMG however requires you to track your aim, not just have the aim at one moment in time, which will usually cause shots to be wasted.
1) Spit can be dodged. 2) OC spikes can be dodged. 3) Parasite paraschmite. 4) Acid Rocket is a joke. 5) Stomp is short range just like the shotgun - no dice there. 6) Spore is good for weakening the marines, but it's not effective against marines on the move. Unless the marines stop to have a tea party or build some stuff, that is. 7) I'm pretty sure I'm missing something else, but I can't think of it. Not bilebomb, since it doesn't hurt marines. Whatever it is, I'm sure it sucks too.
If the aliens posed a threat at range, the shotgun would be a more risky weapon to use - You'd get close-range power but you'd be a snack for <Lifeform with ranged attack>, the exact same way onos are (supposedly) a nightmare once they're in your face, but would be suicidal to charge headfirst into concentrated HMG fire: The onos is an infighter, and the HMGs strength lies in putting all the bullets in the onos before he can eat you.
Even spikes weren't the most phenomenal weapon since they didn't do very impressive damage for how long you needed to use them on a marine - most places on NS maps just weren't big enough for a concentrated spike attack (There were places where lerk could perch and reap spike kills, but look at a map like Veil, where the hallways are usually short - spike attacks wouldn't be too effective there).
It just has little place in the game for where it's at in the tech tree. If it required the armory to be upgraded to work? Sure, that's fine. If it required an arms lab upgrade to be powerful against structures? Great. But for being bottom-tier super-cheap, there's little justification for that much power in such a miserable little package - That's like giving gorges bilebomb at hive one - that also damages marines the way it did in 1.04. In fact, that's exactly what it's like.
the shotgun should be made to behave like a shotgun should behave. Massive damage when up close. If you are less than 2 feet away from a fade, it should die in 2-4 blasts(depending on weapons upgrades). If you are medium range away from a skulk(around 10 feet away), it should kill a skulk if you aim directly at them. If you are at long range, a full well aim blast should do the equivalent of a lmg bullet or two(basically not much damage).
I dont care where the pellets go if it worked like this, and as long as you if you aim where the crosshairs are, you will hit soemthing. I dont like how the shotgun now is offcentered so you have to use a different crosshair to be accurate(and how the shotgun acts like a railgun).
You can't compare res costs. Equal amounts of res are worth differnt things to differnt teams.
The shotgun definatly needs a nerf. The way it is now any noob can take it and multiply thier scoes. I suggest nerfing to about halfway where the 1.04 shotgun was and where it is now. That keeps the shotgun deadly, but takes enough of the user friendlyness away to allow skulks to have a chance if the marines miss.
<!--QuoteBegin-bigjangin+Jul 24 2004, 05:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bigjangin @ Jul 24 2004, 05:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the shotgun should be made to behave like a shotgun should behave. Massive damage when up close. If you are less than 2 feet away from a fade, it should die in 2-4 blasts(depending on weapons upgrades). If you are medium range away from a skulk(around 10 feet away), it should kill a skulk if you aim directly at them. If you are at long range, a full well aim blast should do the equivalent of a lmg bullet or two(basically not much damage).
I dont care where the pellets go if it worked like this, and as long as you if you aim where the crosshairs are, you will hit soemthing. I dont like how the shotgun now is offcentered so you have to use a different crosshair to be accurate(and how the shotgun acts like a railgun). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually if it behaved anything at all like a shotgun in real life, the choke on the barrel would be fairly tight and it wouldn't be unrealistic to hit an onos-sized target at long range with almost the entire pattern.
EEK, you can say all the garbage in the world about how SG's are supposedly better than HMG's at killing larger lifeforms, but I know from just too much gameplay that it simply isn't true.
Especially if they have onos, you need HMG's. SG's suck at killing onos, because an HMG's range is much bigger than that of an onos and it has a large clip. An onos can make you waste half of your SG clip before it needs to regen while a fade comes in to mop up. Throw in a skulk and you are generally talking screwed.
HMG's, by the way, deal dmg approx. .2 seconds slower than a SG does, if both are started at the same time.
However, if you factor in the HMG's range, you gain about 1.2 seconds of pure firing time that the SG will not be able to connect in the meantime. For this reason HMG's are much better than SG's at killing players.
When I play as fade in a match, if I see 2 SG's I call for a lerk and maybe a skulk. If I see 2 HMG's I ask for the entire team to come down to help me, with the very least of another fade and lerk.
HMG's are twice as good as SG's at killing players than the SG is, not to mention, while it has a slow reload, it makes up for it with an enmourous first punch, so that way an onos or multiple smaller lifeforms cannot push you around.
Also, HMG's vs. SG's at killing onos. When I see SG's as an onos, I know that I can scrape by even if I lose all of my armor, because once I am out of their effect range, they will be able to pistol me, at best in an attempt to finish me off. This makes devour especially easy, and I can make them waste a ton of ammo on me and be unable to kill me, leaving room for smaller lifeforms to clean it all up.
When I see HMG's, I know that if I run after losing all of my armor, I'm probably screwed.
Next, GL's are better than SG's at killing scrutures simply because of the GL's huge splash range. SG's are better at killing lone structures, however. The GL is a specilized weapon, and should stay that way. Spam weapons suck.
Really, the SG's best counter? Nothing in NS has a really good hard counter, but most weapons have soft counters.
For SG's, it's a lot of structures, spores, and a lot of HP (fades and esp. onos).
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
EEK, just because HMGs are a better counter, doesn't mean the marines can't have a weaker counter as well. Onos counter HA well (and acutally, their stomp range is freakin ridiculous) but Fades can do the same, just slightly less well. HMGs make the Fade call for a lot of backup. Shotguns make the fade call for less backup, but the point is the Fade still won't want to take on those shotgunners alone Sometimes HMGs just aren't available, and marines need something to scare off the stuff bigger than a Lerk.
Actually, I'm really, really for beefing the damage of the shotgun while reducing its rate of fire.
OK, this went on for long enough. Take note that while I only suspended one user, this does not mean others didn't get close. That someone behaves like a jerk does not oblige you to respond in kind.
Comments
Fades come about the same time HMGs should - 3 minutes to upgrade armory, maybe a minute or so more you'll see fades. A shotgun as a 'fade counter' available at any time is vast overkill.
Sometimes aliens won't fade until well past the five minute mark, so shotguns are still overkill then. Make the marines change their strategy.
Also here's what I don't get:
1) You say that HMGs are a better counter to big lifeforms. I only somewhat agree, but they're also great fun to use. I would say that currently the shotgun is better against big lifeforms, simply because you're not only saving yourself the cost of upgrading the armory, but you're saving 10 res per gun as well.
The HMG is good against Onos in particular, since it requires the better part of its magazine to deal most damage - a fade usually won't stick around long for that. The shotgun however, deals its damage in one huge wallop - this means that if you had 3 seconds of firing time before the critter eats you, you're better off with the shotgun since you'll deal more damage in that time. We've tricked onos with pistols more then once, then all drew shotguns and blew him to pieces.
But I digress: You say the HMG is better against large lifeforms, then say that shotguns still should be strong to take on larger lifeforms.
How does that make sense? That's like saying skulks should deal double damage to Heavy Armors since 'sometimes aliens try different paths'. Aliens are almost always stuck in the exact same tech path every single game - I think the marines could survive with their anti-large-lifeform counter requiring SOME investment of resources.
2) I generally see shotguns used just as much in the early game as the late game - the power to instagib skulks and nearly kill gorges is a great ability, and will significantly slow down the aliens advancement. Also considering that should the marines manage to get into the hive undetected (or with minimal resistance) they can just sit there and instagib you as you spawn until they run out of bullets. Hell, they can even turn their guns on the hive and kill it faster then the same resource investment in siege cannons would.
For 10 res, plus 15 or whatever the hell an armory costs, I don't think they should have the power to put down any structure in their way in just a few seconds, or have that same power against nearly every lifeform - that's just too much - Even the HMG that costs twice as much and requires a 3 minute, resource-intensive armory upgrade has a long reload and does poorly against structures, and it's only somewhat better against lifeforms.
The shotgun has no counter whatsoever.
LMGs run out of ammo quickly and aren't the most painful weapon in the world. HMGs don't really do much to structures, chew through ammo quickly, and have a long reload. Grenade launchers have very low ammo, can be difficult to use, and generally won't be too effective trying to peg skulks with it. The siege cannon requires a turret factory to be upgraded, and doesn't target lifeforms.
The shotgun's reload is fast - the fact that it can be interrupted and fired is not a very funny joke - the shotgun is very strong against both lifeforms and structures - the shotgun is the absolute cheapest and most accessible upgraded weapon - the shotgun has the lowest speed penalty for an upgraded weapon - the shotgun. Even the so-called 'range restriction' isn't much of a restriction, since the aliens are, MELEE BASED and have not a single ranged attack that is somewhat effective.
The only possible shotgun counter I can think of lies in it's 'relatively' slow rate of fire, but a twitchy, jumpy marine with a good eye can usually make quick work of even two skulks nipping at his ankles. Unlike the LMG where you stand almost zero chance of killing more then three skulks in a single magazine, the shotgun can easilly (and I've done it, but I'll be the first to say I'm not the greatest aim in the world - I was having a phenomenal day) kill a single skulk for each shell it has chambered. It just takes a good aim and one tap of the mouse. The LMG however requires you to track your aim, not just have the aim at one moment in time, which will usually cause shots to be wasted.
1) Spit can be dodged.
2) OC spikes can be dodged.
3) Parasite paraschmite.
4) Acid Rocket is a joke.
5) Stomp is short range just like the shotgun - no dice there.
6) Spore is good for weakening the marines, but it's not effective against marines on the move. Unless the marines stop to have a tea party or build some stuff, that is.
7) I'm pretty sure I'm missing something else, but I can't think of it. Not bilebomb, since it doesn't hurt marines. Whatever it is, I'm sure it sucks too.
If the aliens posed a threat at range, the shotgun would be a more risky weapon to use - You'd get close-range power but you'd be a snack for <Lifeform with ranged attack>, the exact same way onos are (supposedly) a nightmare once they're in your face, but would be suicidal to charge headfirst into concentrated HMG fire: The onos is an infighter, and the HMGs strength lies in putting all the bullets in the onos before he can eat you.
Even spikes weren't the most phenomenal weapon since they didn't do very impressive damage for how long you needed to use them on a marine - most places on NS maps just weren't big enough for a concentrated spike attack (There were places where lerk could perch and reap spike kills, but look at a map like Veil, where the hallways are usually short - spike attacks wouldn't be too effective there).
It just has little place in the game for where it's at in the tech tree. If it required the armory to be upgraded to work? Sure, that's fine. If it required an arms lab upgrade to be powerful against structures? Great. But for being bottom-tier super-cheap, there's little justification for that much power in such a miserable little package - That's like giving gorges bilebomb at hive one - that also damages marines the way it did in 1.04. In fact, that's exactly what it's like.
I dont care where the pellets go if it worked like this, and as long as you if you aim where the crosshairs are, you will hit soemthing. I dont like how the shotgun now is offcentered so you have to use a different crosshair to be accurate(and how the shotgun acts like a railgun).
The shotgun definatly needs a nerf. The way it is now any noob can take it and multiply thier scoes. I suggest nerfing to about halfway where the 1.04 shotgun was and where it is now. That keeps the shotgun deadly, but takes enough of the user friendlyness away to allow skulks to have a chance if the marines miss.
I dont care where the pellets go if it worked like this, and as long as you if you aim where the crosshairs are, you will hit soemthing. I dont like how the shotgun now is offcentered so you have to use a different crosshair to be accurate(and how the shotgun acts like a railgun). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually if it behaved anything at all like a shotgun in real life, the choke on the barrel would be fairly tight and it wouldn't be unrealistic to hit an onos-sized target at long range with almost the entire pattern.
EEK, you can say all the garbage in the world about how SG's are supposedly better than HMG's at killing larger lifeforms, but I know from just too much gameplay that it simply isn't true.
Especially if they have onos, you need HMG's. SG's suck at killing onos, because an HMG's range is much bigger than that of an onos and it has a large clip. An onos can make you waste half of your SG clip before it needs to regen while a fade comes in to mop up. Throw in a skulk and you are generally talking screwed.
HMG's, by the way, deal dmg approx. .2 seconds slower than a SG does, if both are started at the same time.
However, if you factor in the HMG's range, you gain about 1.2 seconds of pure firing time that the SG will not be able to connect in the meantime. For this reason HMG's are much better than SG's at killing players.
When I play as fade in a match, if I see 2 SG's I call for a lerk and maybe a skulk. If I see 2 HMG's I ask for the entire team to come down to help me, with the very least of another fade and lerk.
HMG's are twice as good as SG's at killing players than the SG is, not to mention, while it has a slow reload, it makes up for it with an enmourous first punch, so that way an onos or multiple smaller lifeforms cannot push you around.
Also, HMG's vs. SG's at killing onos. When I see SG's as an onos, I know that I can scrape by even if I lose all of my armor, because once I am out of their effect range, they will be able to pistol me, at best in an attempt to finish me off. This makes devour especially easy, and I can make them waste a ton of ammo on me and be unable to kill me, leaving room for smaller lifeforms to clean it all up.
When I see HMG's, I know that if I run after losing all of my armor, I'm probably screwed.
Next, GL's are better than SG's at killing scrutures simply because of the GL's huge splash range. SG's are better at killing lone structures, however. The GL is a specilized weapon, and should stay that way. Spam weapons suck.
Really, the SG's best counter? Nothing in NS has a really good hard counter, but most weapons have soft counters.
For SG's, it's a lot of structures, spores, and a lot of HP (fades and esp. onos).
Anyway, the shotgun should be reduced to a maximum (lvl 3) dmg of about 135-150.
It's as simple as that.
Actually, I'm really, really for beefing the damage of the shotgun while reducing its rate of fire.
...
Well, actually I DO care, but "balancing" things is hard. I would be happy if the damage of the shotgun was simply reduced.
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And yes NGE, I am always right. Especially about SG IS TEH MOOB.
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Perhaps the true answer to my anger is finally integrating VAC into NS... (*30 angry threads about being VAC banned*)
<span style='color:red'>***Locked.***</span>