<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkell+Nov 7 2002, 04:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkell @ Nov 7 2002, 04:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So before peeps start saying, oh just use teamplay better or etc. remeber that a lot of people on servers simply wont, they are just looking to shoot stuff, and they usually go marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a teamplay mod. Not a deathmatch. I know there are those who don't realize that, but it's the truth. None of the Developers are going to change it to affix the players who don't understand.
In short, I recommend finding a Clan so you can experience real teamplay.
Since the patch, I havn't seen a single Marine victory. The resources we put into holding _A_ resource node takes almost the whole team (3 people out of 4-5) has to defend the node, and by the time we have ONE up and defended, they seem to have 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shifty Eyes+Nov 7 2002, 04:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shifty Eyes @ Nov 7 2002, 04:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since the patch, I havn't seen a single Marine victory. The resources we put into holding _A_ resource node takes almost the whole team (3 people out of 4-5) has to defend the node, and by the time we have ONE up and defended, they seem to have 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I just won a game as marine, so there you go. "I haven't seen a marine victory" is a pointless argument with no real statistics backing it up. I have never seen a real, living octupus before, but I still think they exist.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gnacox+Nov 7 2002, 05:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gnacox @ Nov 7 2002, 05:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have never seen a real, living octupus before, but I still think they exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats because you're gullible, everyone knows Octopi are just a diversion to keep attention away from the evil squid plot to take over the world.
you forget the fact that this game is also an RTS. manage your resources better. learn the map choke points, and defend those, instead of trying to turret farm every single random node you come across.
also, a lot of people playing marines are retards. your parasited, uh... what are you doing thinking your stealthy slowly strafing near a doorway trying to pick apart a skulk or two? we can see you, and we run much faster. fast enough to kill you, take a few hits from turrets and run back that is.
also, there is no reason for the whole marine team to be standing in view of a doorway when trying to fortify their 2nd base. just because your not an alien doesn't mean you can't crouch in a few corners and lure them in. even sacrifice a few bites on the resource module so u can snipe at the alien or two thinking it's a free lunch.
from all the marine games i've played, i've rarely seen good commanders who knew how to properly manage resources. remember, before they get their 2nd hive up (10-15 minutes into the game) there is absolutely no reason for the marines not to be able to hold back a few skulks with some LMGs. to fight skulks you need lmgs and travel in groups checking ambush spots, to fight lerks and fades you need shotties and an HMG and HA on your best marine (yes, not all marines are created equal... people do suck, and it's up to you to decide who's worthy to spend resources on). how do you fight onos and bile bombs? hmgs and grenade launchers of course. 2 hives takes some time to conquer, getting 3 hives takes an eternity. save your resources and there's no reason why you should be resource starved.
i just realized it now, maybe because it's taken this long for people to learn how to play alien properly... 2 hive vs. marines holed up in 1 hive is pretty damn even. even pre-patch. a few days into the game we say players playing as skulks with the 2nd hive up for christs sake. hell, i did this a few times myself, partly because playing skulk is a lot more fun... but in the long run not very effective. people are starting to learn this , and are doing more lerk+fade combos, which are pretty **obscenity** devastating. get a gorg to back you up with healing sprays and defensive towers around the corner, with a lerk and fade pestering a chokepoint and wasting marine ammo, and you've just bought yourselves enough time maybe for a 3rd hive rush.
if one thing is to change, it's that fades last a little bit too long now. with proper gorg backup support and a lerk they are walking tanks and can stand up head to head with some HA-HMGs. maybe tone that down a bit. to the skulks base rushing at the start, and setting up parasites and ambushes, once second hive comes up, 44 resources aren't much of a problem for all of em. once people start learning to lerk/fade defend... it's going to be a huge pain in the **obscenity** for the marines to advance anywhere on the map, even more so than it is right now. that's the balance problem i see at the moment... though i'm pretty sure give it a week or two and marines will start devising better tactics to counter it.
<!--QuoteBegin--XipeTotec+Nov 7 2002, 05:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XipeTotec @ Nov 7 2002, 05:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Gnacox+Nov 7 2002, 05:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gnacox @ Nov 7 2002, 05:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have never seen a real, living octupus before, but I still think they exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats because you're gullible, everyone knows Octopi are just a diversion to keep attention away from the evil squid plot to take over the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh give me a break. I, for one, can tell you with no doubt what-so-ever that there is <b>no</b> evil squid plot to take over the world. That just ridiculous. There's a perfectly good explanation for this-
HEY LOOK AN <a href='http://www.scu.edu.au/staff_pages/dbucher/Octopus/Ocy1.html' target='_blank'>OCTOPUS</a>!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--[DSY]Stauf+Nov 7 2002, 05:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([DSY]Stauf @ Nov 7 2002, 05:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--XipeTotec+Nov 7 2002, 05:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XipeTotec @ Nov 7 2002, 05:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Gnacox+Nov 7 2002, 05:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gnacox @ Nov 7 2002, 05:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have never seen a real, living octupus before, but I still think they exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats because you're gullible, everyone knows Octopi are just a diversion to keep attention away from the evil squid plot to take over the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh give me a break. I, for one, can tell you with no doubt what-so-ever that there is <b>no</b> evil squid plot to take over the world. That just ridiculous. There's a perfectly good explanation for this-
HEY LOOK AN <a href='http://www.scu.edu.au/staff_pages/dbucher/Octopus/Ocy1.html' target='_blank'>OCTOPUS</a>!!!
*Runs away*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LIES! IT'S ALL LIES!
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--GravitonSurge+Nov 6 2002, 09:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GravitonSurge @ Nov 6 2002, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I play small games, (4v4 or less) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's your problem right there. 4v4 was perfectly balanced pre-patch (I _think_ that's the size used for playtesting). However the larger the teams, the more of an advantage the marines got due to the resource model used.
What the patch did in nerfing the marines was to move the sweet spot up. From my limited testing, it seems 8v8 games is about balanced. Smaller games means the marines has it tougher (and 4v4 is just about a lost cause given good Kharaa), larger means the Kharaa gets the shaft (I belive; I haven't played in any 12v12 game from the start).
I think that in the end, the resource model will need to be adjusted to up the marine income per player in small games and decrease it in large games. The Kharaa will probably need to cut some resources in large games as well, to avoid too much turret spamming...
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited November 2002
Ok, a few things.
1) 4v4 is the bare minimum for a playable game of NS, and on Caged or Nancy, 5v5 or 6v6 will be better. Most PTs will tell you that the ideal game is 7-10 per side.
2) Aliens spend more RPs than marines, always. Marines ought to be able to win even a long game with no more than 3 or 4 nodes; they are more effective with the RPs they do get. So don't complain that aliens get more nodes than marines do.
3) The marines have to use teamwork. Flay beefed the aliens up after watching several high-power clan matches, in which effective marine teamwork decimated even well-coordinated alien teams. Pubs will have to adjust; if anything can teach teamplay, NS will.
4) Yes, turrets are only a temporary wall against aliens, especially once Fades start to show up. Phase Gates can help commanders protect valuable expansions.
5) No one believed me when I said people would start whining about the aliens as soon as 1.01 was released. Heh.
Relax peeps, this game is new. Soon marines will learn to aim and commanders will learn how to command!
You cant tell me that you've had more bad games than good games... not in this lifetime. If yes, just keep playing until you can play properly. Or whine at the forums.
"a few days into the game we say players playing as skulks with the 2nd hive up for christs sake. hell, i did this a few times myself, partly because playing skulk is a lot more fun... but in the long run not very effective."
I disagree. I play Skulk all the way up until the marines get HA, and then I only switch because it's very tough to kill HA with a Skulk. Maybe you haven't been playing Skulk right, I can usually do pretty well. It's so easy to rip up LA marines in 2 bites. I've taken out 5 at once before, and 3 at once without being hit (using buildings as cover). Skulks are EXTREMELY effective until Marines get HA. Then I go Fade or Onos. Usually Fade, I love getting Celerity, Carapace, and Cloak, running real fast, teleporting and meleeing. I love Blink <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: And you have Acid Rockets for those pesky jetpack marines <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Exactly as stated above. People come on servers to shoot stuff. They run off solo and whine to the comm when they get killed. Now it seems aliens like to stick in packs more, roaming the hallways. If marines did that, they'd 0wnz0r every alien. And also, the LMG *IS* good, it can easily take down a skulk. Fade is a different story, but they're too slow to do anything anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Mines. You know, those cheap, effective weapons that commanders never drop unless you beg for them? Yeah, those.
Place those around your expansion, and on the floor around your turret factories. Put a phase gate there too, so marines can come repair.
I played two long games last night where marines won. And both teams were playing well.
Good commanders kick booty. Teammates who follow orders kick more booty. Welders for at least half of your assault marines kick booty too (better than Defense chambers).
Find a clan, get the most out of your expereince with teamplay in NS, check out www.caleague.com and go to the the NS division and see the clans already signed up, most of em have info about where to find em, like #thetheory on irc.gamesnet.net
As Aliens, the Gorges are the backbone of the team
If a Gorge starts yelling for help, don't continue with your plan to rush the Marine Base, or sack an expansion, or anything, drop what you are doing and treat that gorge like a Commander Chair or an Infantry Portal, he is the reason you will ever get a 2nd hive or a single resource nozzle to evolve or upgrade AT ALL, get to the fat boy who can't run away
this new patch makes everything fine. I was commander and we owned the aliens. Because we secure the hives, and we protected our buildings. We kept progressing thru the map and until we finally won.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->90% of the time while building the marine dies to a skulk who he can't hear because of the bzzt sound from building, and if he doesn't, he dies during a fight, even while I'm dropping life on him.. most marine players have no aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, what were you doing building a RT alone? It's SUPEREASY as a skulk to take out building Marines cause you can hear the welder sounds. Thats why the marines travel in packs so one covers the builder.
Comments
This is a teamplay mod. Not a deathmatch. I know there are those who don't realize that, but it's the truth. None of the Developers are going to change it to affix the players who don't understand.
In short, I recommend finding a Clan so you can experience real teamplay.
The resources we put into holding _A_ resource node takes almost the whole team (3 people out of 4-5) has to defend the node, and by the time we have ONE up and defended, they seem to have 3.
The resources we put into holding _A_ resource node takes almost the whole team (3 people out of 4-5) has to defend the node, and by the time we have ONE up and defended, they seem to have 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I just won a game as marine, so there you go.
"I haven't seen a marine victory" is a pointless argument with no real statistics backing it up. I have never seen a real, living octupus before, but I still think they exist.
Thats because you're gullible, everyone knows Octopi are just a diversion to keep attention away from the evil squid plot to take over the world.
also, a lot of people playing marines are retards. your parasited, uh... what are you doing thinking your stealthy slowly strafing near a doorway trying to pick apart a skulk or two? we can see you, and we run much faster. fast enough to kill you, take a few hits from turrets and run back that is.
also, there is no reason for the whole marine team to be standing in view of a doorway when trying to fortify their 2nd base. just because your not an alien doesn't mean you can't crouch in a few corners and lure them in. even sacrifice a few bites on the resource module so u can snipe at the alien or two thinking it's a free lunch.
from all the marine games i've played, i've rarely seen good commanders who knew how to properly manage resources. remember, before they get their 2nd hive up (10-15 minutes into the game) there is absolutely no reason for the marines not to be able to hold back a few skulks with some LMGs. to fight skulks you need lmgs and travel in groups checking ambush spots, to fight lerks and fades you need shotties and an HMG and HA on your best marine (yes, not all marines are created equal... people do suck, and it's up to you to decide who's worthy to spend resources on). how do you fight onos and bile bombs? hmgs and grenade launchers of course. 2 hives takes some time to conquer, getting 3 hives takes an eternity. save your resources and there's no reason why you should be resource starved.
i just realized it now, maybe because it's taken this long for people to learn how to play alien properly... 2 hive vs. marines holed up in 1 hive is pretty damn even. even pre-patch. a few days into the game we say players playing as skulks with the 2nd hive up for christs sake. hell, i did this a few times myself, partly because playing skulk is a lot more fun... but in the long run not very effective. people are starting to learn this , and are doing more lerk+fade combos, which are pretty **obscenity** devastating. get a gorg to back you up with healing sprays and defensive towers around the corner, with a lerk and fade pestering a chokepoint and wasting marine ammo, and you've just bought yourselves enough time maybe for a 3rd hive rush.
if one thing is to change, it's that fades last a little bit too long now. with proper gorg backup support and a lerk they are walking tanks and can stand up head to head with some HA-HMGs. maybe tone that down a bit. to the skulks base rushing at the start, and setting up parasites and ambushes, once second hive comes up, 44 resources aren't much of a problem for all of em. once people start learning to lerk/fade defend... it's going to be a huge pain in the **obscenity** for the marines to advance anywhere on the map, even more so than it is right now. that's the balance problem i see at the moment... though i'm pretty sure give it a week or two and marines will start devising better tactics to counter it.
Thats because you're gullible, everyone knows Octopi are just a diversion to keep attention away from the evil squid plot to take over the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh give me a break. I, for one, can tell you with no doubt what-so-ever that there is <b>no</b> evil squid plot to take over the world. That just ridiculous. There's a perfectly good explanation for this-
HEY LOOK AN <a href='http://www.scu.edu.au/staff_pages/dbucher/Octopus/Ocy1.html' target='_blank'>OCTOPUS</a>!!!
*Runs away*
Thats because you're gullible, everyone knows Octopi are just a diversion to keep attention away from the evil squid plot to take over the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh give me a break. I, for one, can tell you with no doubt what-so-ever that there is <b>no</b> evil squid plot to take over the world. That just ridiculous. There's a perfectly good explanation for this-
HEY LOOK AN <a href='http://www.scu.edu.au/staff_pages/dbucher/Octopus/Ocy1.html' target='_blank'>OCTOPUS</a>!!!
*Runs away*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LIES! IT'S ALL LIES!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's your problem right there. 4v4 was perfectly balanced pre-patch (I _think_ that's the size used for playtesting). However the larger the teams, the more of an advantage the marines got due to the resource model used.
What the patch did in nerfing the marines was to move the sweet spot up. From my limited testing, it seems 8v8 games is about balanced. Smaller games means the marines has it tougher (and 4v4 is just about a lost cause given good Kharaa), larger means the Kharaa gets the shaft (I belive; I haven't played in any 12v12 game from the start).
I think that in the end, the resource model will need to be adjusted to up the marine income per player in small games and decrease it in large games. The Kharaa will probably need to cut some resources in large games as well, to avoid too much turret spamming...
1) 4v4 is the bare minimum for a playable game of NS, and on Caged or Nancy, 5v5 or 6v6 will be better. Most PTs will tell you that the ideal game is 7-10 per side.
2) Aliens spend more RPs than marines, always. Marines ought to be able to win even a long game with no more than 3 or 4 nodes; they are more effective with the RPs they do get. So don't complain that aliens get more nodes than marines do.
3) The marines have to use teamwork. Flay beefed the aliens up after watching several high-power clan matches, in which effective marine teamwork decimated even well-coordinated alien teams. Pubs will have to adjust; if anything can teach teamplay, NS will.
4) Yes, turrets are only a temporary wall against aliens, especially once Fades start to show up. Phase Gates can help commanders protect valuable expansions.
5) No one believed me when I said people would start whining about the aliens as soon as 1.01 was released. Heh.
You cant tell me that you've had more bad games than good games... not in this lifetime. If yes, just keep playing until you can play properly. Or whine at the forums.
I disagree. I play Skulk all the way up until the marines get HA, and then I only switch because it's very tough to kill HA with a Skulk. Maybe you haven't been playing Skulk right, I can usually do pretty well. It's so easy to rip up LA marines in 2 bites. I've taken out 5 at once before, and 3 at once without being hit (using buildings as cover). Skulks are EXTREMELY effective until Marines get HA. Then I go Fade or Onos. Usually Fade, I love getting Celerity, Carapace, and Cloak, running real fast, teleporting and meleeing. I love Blink <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: And you have Acid Rockets for those pesky jetpack marines <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
People come on servers to shoot stuff. They run off solo and whine to the comm when they get killed.
Now it seems aliens like to stick in packs more, roaming the hallways. If marines did that, they'd 0wnz0r every alien.
And also, the LMG *IS* good, it can easily take down a skulk. Fade is a different story, but they're too slow to do anything anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Place those around your expansion, and on the floor around your turret factories. Put a phase gate there too, so marines can come repair.
I played two long games last night where marines won. And both teams were playing well.
Good commanders kick booty.
Teammates who follow orders kick more booty.
Welders for at least half of your assault marines kick booty too (better than Defense chambers).
Commander's are required
Find a clan, get the most out of your expereince with teamplay in NS, check out www.caleague.com and go to the the NS division and see the clans already signed up, most of em have info about where to find em, like #thetheory on irc.gamesnet.net
As Aliens, the Gorges are the backbone of the team
If a Gorge starts yelling for help, don't continue with your plan to rush the Marine Base, or sack an expansion, or anything, drop what you are doing and treat that gorge like a Commander Chair or an Infantry Portal, he is the reason you will ever get a 2nd hive or a single resource nozzle to evolve or upgrade AT ALL, get to the fat boy who can't run away
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
um, what were you doing building a RT alone? It's SUPEREASY as a skulk to take out building Marines cause you can hear the welder sounds. Thats why the marines travel in packs so one covers the builder.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> builds <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> as <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> shoots <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->