Large Games
cysab
Join Date: 2004-02-24 Member: 26857Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2004-02-24 Member: 26857Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">How to win 9v9 or larger games as aliens</div> I know there is an old thread about this, but it is basically about 1.0/2.0.
Do you have any suggestion for aliens that could work in large games in 3.0?
Since res flow is too sloooow in these games I think we should get first the upgrades that benefit skulks and lerks the most: Sensory or Movement first.
SCs at the right spots could help skulks a lot. Cloacking from the SC + Focus and 2 or 3 skilled skulks can hold a marine squad of any number. A single lerk spamming spores at marines can counter the Armor upgrades when they get it. The lerk doesn't need to risk himself, so Scent of Fear is good for him. Focus is also effective for the fade. He doesn't need DCs that much since he can blink in, 1 hit, marine down, blink out. Regen or Carapace wouldn't be so effective against a large number of rines anyway. Taking them down one at a time, with 1 hit is a lot better.
MCs with silence or celerity is much better for skulks then DCs, I can't believe people still prefer DC/MC/SC over MC/DC/SC, but that's another thread. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> Lerks know that adrenaline is a lot more useful than Regen. I think it could work very well in large games, since Fades and Onos will usually show up only when Hive 2 is up.
More important than upgrade order is denying marines the Res. Don't let them build RTs and keep them trying to defend the ones they have. Keep them busy... force them to play defence. Marines lose when playing defence... 90% of the time. Scent of Fear is important because you will know where they are and keep track of those "rambos" trying to sneak into hive and drop PGs, etc.
I haven't tried this before, this is what I think COULD work. It looks better than DC/MC/SC for large games anyway. What do you think about large games strategies for Kharaa? Maybe in some maps a different strategy could be better?
Do you have any suggestion for aliens that could work in large games in 3.0?
Since res flow is too sloooow in these games I think we should get first the upgrades that benefit skulks and lerks the most: Sensory or Movement first.
SCs at the right spots could help skulks a lot. Cloacking from the SC + Focus and 2 or 3 skilled skulks can hold a marine squad of any number. A single lerk spamming spores at marines can counter the Armor upgrades when they get it. The lerk doesn't need to risk himself, so Scent of Fear is good for him. Focus is also effective for the fade. He doesn't need DCs that much since he can blink in, 1 hit, marine down, blink out. Regen or Carapace wouldn't be so effective against a large number of rines anyway. Taking them down one at a time, with 1 hit is a lot better.
MCs with silence or celerity is much better for skulks then DCs, I can't believe people still prefer DC/MC/SC over MC/DC/SC, but that's another thread. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> Lerks know that adrenaline is a lot more useful than Regen. I think it could work very well in large games, since Fades and Onos will usually show up only when Hive 2 is up.
More important than upgrade order is denying marines the Res. Don't let them build RTs and keep them trying to defend the ones they have. Keep them busy... force them to play defence. Marines lose when playing defence... 90% of the time. Scent of Fear is important because you will know where they are and keep track of those "rambos" trying to sneak into hive and drop PGs, etc.
I haven't tried this before, this is what I think COULD work. It looks better than DC/MC/SC for large games anyway. What do you think about large games strategies for Kharaa? Maybe in some maps a different strategy could be better?
Comments
That way you can afford the Hive or some sort of upgrade. Unlike a smaller game, there will be no such thing as a "dedicated gorge". Each player will need to make his kills, gorge, drop structures, skulk, make kills, etc ad infinitum. If there's 3 showboaters who don't contribute to the structures then you're very likely to lose (unless they're exceptionally good, in which case they're NOT showboats but better players).
But it would be Ideally to have
2 lerks
1 DC skulk
2 perm gorges
2 fades
1 hive skulk.
If the lerks stay passive they can help by taking away that early armor 1 with gas spores, provide protection for res nodes, and force marines to generally do what thye don't want to do.
Early lerks and quick second hives are the key to winning large pub games.
1 gorge has to put up 3 dcs. you NEED dcs. Your fades need to be able to take on electricity and turrets.
The second hive HAS to have a couple skulks hanging around it at all times.
You have to have a good fade on your team, it helps to have 2.
Hope that thier com doesn't get phases early, or that the marines are the kind that don't phase.
Skulks have to be constantly biting marine rts.
Basically, if you can get the second hive up and finished by no more than 10 mins into the game, and the marines are limited to no more than 4 rts most of the time, you have a very good chance of winning.
The second hive is VITAL here. It means you can bile-bomb lockdowns. Fades get metabolize, so they can stay out in the field much longer, and can do more owning. Skulks get leap, which helps even out the score against the arms lab. Lerks get umbra, and that doubles everything's life. Onos get celerity and stomp. which means you can deal with Ha. And most importantly, you have half the spawn time.
I find lerks less important than second hive and fades. You need the 5-6 minute fades to get the elec'd stuff and the turret farms. You need them to use up res on shotties, then kill the shotguning rambos.
A good group of wolfpacking skulks will force the marines to spend ALOT of money in building D that they will never use. It also makes marines more paranoid and stay close to their own structures, which makes it difficult for them to kill your expensive gorges, res nodes, and chambers. A paranoid marine takes much more time to travel accross the map as well. When Im thinking about what's around every corner im spending about 25% more time to get from point A to point B.
But Wolfpacking, however, needs to be used when needed. You team must have the ability to wolfpack quickly, and scout EVERYTHING AND OFTEN when not assembled. 75% or more of games can be won if your team scouts and wolfpacks effectively.
I still find MCs more viable in large games (since it's always pub) as it makes the whole team with skulks more effective rather than just the fades. Also (this is evil) it almost forces the res****s to put up a hive instead of fading. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Afterall it usually is the long spawn-queues that eventually eats up the khaaraa from inside-out. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Who gets more kills, the Skulk with cloacking and focus or the Fade with regeneration? In most servers I play the top fragger is usually a skulk who decided to get focus first. Focus Fade is even better, since it can take a whole squad of LMGs in a few seconds. Regen will keep the Fade longer in the field, but he can always go back to hive or find a gorge for healing.
I know it's different in NS, strategy is more important than kills, but maybe in large games it IS important after all. Keeping marines away from RNs and in base.
Skulks again: in Combat, Focus skulks still own even when marines have Armor, Shotguns and lots of upgrades. In NS, focus will cost you only 2 res points but shotguns cost 10 for marines and they wont get one automagically when they respawn.
Don't you think Sensory first IS viable in large games? Good positioned sensories can even counter Motion Tracking.
DC dependent Fades can't be that good after all. You must know how to play Fade without those DCs first if you want to be a good Fade. Even if you have Regen you should fallback for healing everytime. It's not a big difference if you need to fallback to hive (ok... it's different, but not that much). The only lifeform that will suffer from lack of DCs in early game is the Onos. The others can do just fine without them.
Two Hives lock down may be a problem for sensory first, but you can always use sensories to assault a fortified position. The problem is... if you let marines lockdown 2 hives, isn't the game partially lost anyway? The whole point of Sensories here is to keep Marines from expanding. Cutting reinforcements, keeping them busy trying to LEAVE base when aliens are expanding, surprising them, fast 1 hit kills, whatever.
I know most pubbers won't try this... but they are going to lose anyway. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not necesarrily with regen, but fades in general as skulks are nothing but free res most of the time vs the evil ranged weapons. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> However we're talking a large server where you'll only have 1-2 fades with 9 players team. What you would want them is probably to activate the other 7 skulks to do something useful by getting some chamber that benefits skulks first. Besides a celerity Fade is not bad at all, you just need to heal at a hive.
Yesterday I played in a server with 25 slots and it was full most of the time. I played like 7 or 8 NS matches and aliens won ALL of them (and I played alien all the time, to check their strategy and to play in the "weak" side of a large game). The strategy used was DMC... all games, with 1 or 2 Fades, 1 skulk that saved for dropping all 3 DCs when enough res BUT... lots, LOTS of gorges OC Spamming everywhere. (Well, mostly chokepoints anyway) Surprisely it worked in all games.
The few <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> that showed up died in a few seconds so the game was practically decided by a few Fades, some Skulks and a lot of Gorges. Except at the end of the game, with all 3 hives and chambers and all RNs... then 4-5 Onos where used to strike the marine base.
But the problem is: Marine team wasn't much skilled. They had a few good players and in the last game I played it had more good players than alien team, but not a very good Comm. So this strategy may work in some maps when teams are not stacked and there are both skilled and less skilled players on both sides. (That's the case in most large games, problem is... they usually stack marines <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I remember we played ns_agora, ns_metal, ns_eclipse and ns_caged. Most games played for 10-20 minutes and the last in caged was 30-35 min. Can't remember if we played other maps.
Edited:
... and ns_bast. But ns_bast is half-victory for aliens anyway. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
you can own the marines in 2 mins by focus rushing them.
But the problem with MCs and Sens is still this:
after 3-4 mins, any com who knows what he's doing in a massive game will have turrets/elec in the hives and set up PGs.
Even if you hold the second hive, if thier com sets up a seige base, it is nearly impossible to take them out without DCs.
Yet another reason you want DCs is because you want your fades surviving. In massive games, res comes slow. The first few fades you get will usually come from RFK and teh starting 25. If they die, it's nearly impossible for them to re-fade anytime soon. they're missing the starting 25, and the marines probably have some upgrades by now, making skulks that much weaker.
In massive games, skulks are more useless. Marines benefit form combining thier fire. In massive games, rines can stick in groups of 4 or more, and can kill skulks just like that. Ambushing becomes the only viable tactic, but once they get MT, they will slaughter you.
Basically, fades make or break massive games. The only viable tactic against a large group of marines is hit and run, you can't kill 4 marines at once. Onos are too slow before celerity, and too weak before regen. Which means they're purely 2nd hive creatures. Skulks are too weak. Lerks as well. The best a lerk can do is gas, but 1 good shotgun blast and a couple of lucky lmg bullets will kill a lerk reallly quickly.
Aliens basically try thier best to delay marines until thier second hive goes up. Fades are the best at doing this, as they can break up a larger group of marines so the skulks are actualyl useful in the face of upgrades. Lerks are useful until the weapons upgrades roll in. then they're just too weak.
OCs are good for delaying marines at points, and distracting the marines. nothing's harder than trying to fight an oc and a skulk at the same time. Though if teh marines were travelling in a large group, they should brush by any minor outpost very quickly, and thier com should be seiging the larger ones.
If anything, lerks in the first two minutes hounding the marines with gas in a few key spots will keep the marines busy while the rest of your team goes unmolested. The reason you think lerks are weak is because a lot of pub lerkers are REALLY REALLY DUMB, and they think lerk bite is meant for killing marines. SILLY. Spore is for killing marines, <b>bite is for killing buildings,</b> since none of your other attacks hurt marine structures. plz wise up. Smart lerks are a very nice item to have in massive games, depending on the map of course. If the map is already good for lerking, massive games make it even more so, as long as you play like a big chicken.
Saving your own res tower is more important than taking down your enemies.
Parasite when you can. Only engage if you know you can kill 1+ marine, and only if your team is almost all alive. Dying means you have to wait to respawn, you give them res, and if you're defending an area, it is now open to attack. Use structures to your advantage, learn how to use the hitbox of RTs so that when a marine sees you chompin on it, he wont hit you, and proceed to empty the rest of his clip into you at no avail, or move in to get a different angle. Keep moving around that node until he gets into striking range and go for the kill.
Use your teamates, they're usualy good bait, a skulk parasiting a marine from a distance can get them anoyed and make them charge after them. When they move past you, come down for the kill. A gorge can do the same, but make sure they're at a safe distance because they're alot more fragile and cost res to evolve.
Fades need to stay alive, a dead fade, is a useless fade, if something risky, like taking down a small base, or armory at marine start, bring a skulk with you, he can quicken your job, and gives the marines another target, a skulk would gladly die if it ment a fade would live. Usualy having a skulk with the fade at all times is a great thing, fades are bigger targets, and a skulk with him adds another target for marines, and more damage to them. Fades should leave non-electrified RTs alone, skulks can handle them, just let your team know where, and let a skulk take care of it.
Lerks also need to stay alive, they have a much easier job than fades do, the only time you should attack a marine as a lerk, is when he's alone, or when he's building a phase outside ur hive. Stoping him from putting up a phase, or delaying him for a second so another skulk can stop him is worth your death.
Depending on the res flow, an OC or two in a hive is always a plus, it can stop/slow a rush on your hive by quite a bit, it makes marines uneasy when they're being attacked, even if its not a strong hit.
Use OCs to your advantage, they're not strong, but when a marine empties his clip into it, he's dead, cause he wont be able to switch to his pistol, and get 5 shots on you when you're chompin on him.
If marines are occupied by something else on the other side of the map, bring a friend and take down their armory. Stoping that armory from upgrading stops them from getting advanced weapons, and if they dont have a protolab up, delays that even more.
Big games with one hive, aliens are sure to lose. Of course, keep your gorges safe and save your res towers!
Lerk rush is very good too if your carefull, but nothing beats more hives in big games.
I don't even understand how come no one figured that out.
Oh and ocs suck
Killed 3 JPers useing 3 differnt OC farm locations on Eclipse during 1 match.
but yes spore does own, muhaha
i spored constaly with adrenaline for like 7-10 minutes because the rines coulnt get to me cause i would spore them from distance then shoot 2-3 spores where the choke was that they had to come kill me, it was so funny.... that and i had 3 places to shoot from and the place to shoot me with gun missed if i jumped, givin 6 places to spore, spore is so funny muhahaha
bite is good to but only when you really need to fly in fora kill, jsut pretend your a skulk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you attack from multiple vectors, then you won't run into problems with either marines missing your bud and hitting you, nor blocking each other's way. Particularly important with onos, because you simply can't have 4 onos rush in the same door and expect all of them to live. Someone will get trapped, and die.
You will almost certainly need a fade early as well, but again, play conservatively until you have upgrades and hives on your side.
Of course, none of this means your whole team should evolve into fighters. If anything, it becomes more important for the good (or specialized) players to become lerks and fades, as you cannot really afford the lives-for-30-seconds fade.
If anything, lerks in the first two minutes hounding the marines with gas in a few key spots will keep the marines busy while the rest of your team goes unmolested. The reason you think lerks are weak is because a lot of pub lerkers are REALLY REALLY DUMB, and they think lerk bite is meant for killing marines. SILLY. Spore is for killing marines, [b]bite is for killing buildings
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I could luv this guy ppl are always drooling about fades 2 lerks come much faster and do more than 3 fades.....
Eg. eclipse ms is meant to spore 1 lerk from start there ruins marines morale and if the comm wants to keep his rines alive he spends 25% of his res to medpacks.....
second lerk scouts places and spams spore everywhere....
Pubbers need to to understand 2 things.....
1. LERK IS NOT FOR KILLING, just weakening
2. KEEP YOU SELF SUCCESFULL IF ALL RINES SAY: FFS CHICKEN LORK!!!111oneoneone
I have ruin quite a few rine bases by constant spore....
rines with no team work have those rambos
aliens with no team work dont have even 1 dc.....
MCs with silence or celerity is much better for skulks then DCs, I can't believe people still prefer DC/MC/SC over MC/DC/SC, but that's another thread. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I am one of the few that agree with you.
We are higher life forms obviously <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only rine stucture worth a para is an elect rt.
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Too bad most fades will ignore the lecced as they are either needed elsewhere or can't afford using the time in killing the lecced ones. Gorges with BB are much better for this task IMO.