I agree, all points have been made. If however Atziluth here can agree to stop throwing in smart **obscenity** comments, I can agree to not further attack him in childish flames.
Atziluth - You cut the holier than thou **obscenity** and I will stop flaming you, deal? If you wish to make a point I will be much more inclined to listen to your argument if you use civil posts rather then "Jeff K" esque sentences.
I guarantee you this thread is not going to hell in a handbasket. It is going there by a bus I'm chartering by posting this monster.
So my friends ask me "You've been playing Natural Selection alot... What's it like?" And I tell them "Well, if you have a tiny peepee and feel the need to boost your ego through hollow victories, then you choose to play as aliens. If you feel like trying your hardest only to meet bitter failure, you can play as the marines." And then I change the subject, as I don't want to fully reccomend a game where victory and defeat lies in which species you choose right now.
Wait, what did I just say? Well, no matter how you look at it, the marines are getting their genitals handed to them in plastic baggies. Anyone who says that they have seen over 2 out of 10 Marine victories is either grossly exaggerating, not playing on public servers, or are playing the most grossly incompetent aliens to grace this great mod.
The way it sounds around here, teamwork is the key to victory for Marines. Teamwork, teamwork, TEAMWORK! "U n00bs lose Bcause U need 2 work 2gether!1!!!" No... wait, I take that back. The way it sounds around here, a good commander is the key to victory. "U n00bs lose Bcause ur commandar is dum!1!!"
Without BOTH those things, the Marines WILL fail. What are the chances you'll see this in a public server. Well, play as a marine and you'll soon find out.
Okay, so the Marines use teamwork, move in squads, one guy has a welder, one guy has the MG, one guy has HA. They stand a chance, right? No. They will be red smears soon. Why? Because the aliens are using teamwork, too. Aliens are intended to work independently, but what happens when they work together? It's been stated before (if you care to peruse this trainwreck of a thread), or you could probably guess correctly.
Another popular Marine fallacy is "You need to keep the aliens from getting their third hive." No problem. I've seen it done tons of times. I've even seen them do that and claim a few extra nozzles. But Marines can't be everywhere at once. And they need to stay in squads of at least two or else they will die. Putting up sentries to guard an area where marines can't constantly patrol is almost a joke now. "Well, you can't just plop down sentries and run away! You need to guard the area!" Yeah, sure. Guard the area. And claim more nozzles. And keep on the offensive. All while working in squads of two or more, or meeting certain death. How many marines do you think there are?
Aliens can plop down offensive towers and defensive towers that heal the offensive towers. In order for a marine to heal a sentry, he has to requisition a welder, move into position, and then heal one sentry at a time. "Well, ask your commander for a welder! That's what he's there for!" Screw you. One welder costs half as much as a resource tower (that he needs to secure in order to upgrade weapons and armor) which will be wiped out because the marines are either spread too thin or are in a squad somewhere else.
Give the marines a fighting chance: -Resource towers should be cheaper. From 22 credits to 18. If a commander wants to invest a billion credits in turreting the hell out of it, fine. But the marines are going to need to leave it behind to press on. It'll soon be wiped out anyway. -The knife should kick alien **obscenity**. Seriously. My P-due does more damage against aliens than my knife. Upgraded aliens get a melee attack that kicks **obscenity** along with a ranged attack. I'm not saying the knife should kill aliens like a masterwork broadsword, but if two bites from a piddly alien can kill a marine, then four knife swipes should take out a piddly alien. Yes, Marines should rely on their stronger ranged weapons, but alien ranged ammo regenerates. Marine ammo requires dedicated attention from a commander. -The commander HUD should have a medic cross above marines that request health, a bullet icon above marines that request ammo, and a question mark above marines when they request orders. When the marines are in a clusterfuck, it's hard to tell who's requesting what. -The commander HUD should have a list of grunts under his command. He can click on the names to select them. The list also shows thier health and ammo, and which gun they're holding. -The Marine grunt minimap should show the positions of close marines on it. It would make it easier for a lone marine to group-up with his comrades.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.
There are a lot of inexperinced marine players out there right now. The commander has to be on the ball. That's required. No ifs, ands or buts. Period. That's the most important thing. Secondly, and though not equally as important it's a very close second, comes teamwork.
The marines have a lot of advantages if they play the way they're supposed to. Likewise the aliens. I can honestly say that from the games I've been playing, that the sides genuinely feel more or less balanced. Remember, even though this is a game you can pick up, play, and put down, it's a lot more complex than any other mod out there right now.
It's a casual game for the most part, but perhaps not as friendly to the casual gamer as other mods. You have to take the time to learn it, understand it, and be open to different strategies and ideas.
Me? I love this kind of stuff. But it has had its occasionally frustrating moments during the learning curve.
here are some of the things i see happen EVERY GAME when i play marine:
#1 i have never been in a game that the marines lost where there weren't at least a few marines exploring the map solo. you go solo, you dead. you join the marines if you want to work with a team. when im on the marines im always yelling for people to stick together and they straggle anyway.
#2 everyone wants to be commander. everyone thinks their individual needs are more important. everyone thinks they need a hmg when we only have 20 rps and then they go out and get themselves killed with an expensive weapon which disappears off the floor after 10 seconds.
#3 people don't bother to carry a welder so you got all these guys with slow-moving 0-protection armor.
#4 everybody thinks the commander should drop everything when they find an empty resource spot when they could have saved a group of marines who got slaughtered by a single skulk somewhere else because they had no lookout while they were building the commanders ordered resource tower.
#5 people are quick to kick a commander who is doing perfectly fine! i was in this one game where some hothead kicked our commander and then our commander spent the rest of the game teaching some noob how to command!
i don't have to worry about any of this stuff when im an alien because that level of teamwork is not as important. i mean teamwork is important to aliens but its crucial to marines. so before you start blaming all your troubles on supposedly beefed-up aliens, check yourself and see if any of the above scenarios look familiar.
<!--QuoteBegin--[DSY]Stauf+Nov 8 2002, 01:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([DSY]Stauf @ Nov 8 2002, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I suppose it's all perspective, isn't it? Anyone who suggests that marines have a disadvantage is not necessarily a whiner.
I mean, look at the beginning of your own post. I could call you a whiner by the same logic!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was sort of my point.. both sides have things they **obscenity** about.
I think it sort of evens out.
I will concede, however, that my marine time is limited. It's sort of funny -- I join a server, and even though everyone's complaining about teh ub4r al13n 0wnage, the teams are still Marines: 10, Aliens: 7 when I join, and all I can do is go alien. I choose "random team" at the start of the round, and get alien. I manually choose marine, and the round looks like it starts, but the server chooses to change maps instead of actually start.
Maybe I'm just not meant to be a marine.... <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hammer: The pic is showing me that you missed all 4 shots. If they were DIRECT hits, then they WOULD NOT leave scortch marks. How do I know this? Well in TFC if you are a sold/pyro then and you shoot a rocket and it scores a DIRECT hit then it will explode and leave NO scortch mark.
Also you marines are complaining about aliens building D and O chambers outside your base. Well, heres my solution, GET A FREAKING SIEGE TURRENT OR TWO. It does about 300 dmg PER SHOT and can kill almost any alien in 3-4 shots (only if they are near a building that is being attacked). Seriously, I have played so many games of NS before and after the patch. My total siege turrent sightings, FOUR! FOUR! FOUR! FOUR! I have only seen FOUR siege turrents since Halloween. (Not including my LAN games with those bots <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) GET THOSE SIEGES UP! <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also commanders need to get better. I've played Comm about 5 times now (only for about 10 min each cause my computer gets 4 fps after about 5 min in "the chair") and I've learned that if a turrent starts to shoot it sends a message. You commanders have to send marines out to go check it out, or use your scanner sweep, or upgrade motion tracking.
Just give it a rest with this stupid flame war on the speices. Half of you are n00bs to NS and the forums and don't know how exactly how to fight correctly. Give it a month and the games should be 50/50 and hopefully last 30min-1hour (or if its a really good match 4 hours. Yes, I've played a 4 hour match before. We [the aliens after the patch] eventually LOST.)
I agree that the primary reason marines are losing right now is lack of teamwork/skill/map knowledge. in fact, i have a perfect example. playing ns_bast, things were looking pretty bad. aliens had 3 hives, and were coming at us pretty hard.
solution?
take out one of the hives.
so i ask the commander to supply a buddy and I with hmg's or grenade launchers (over 200 rp's available at the time) so i could take the ducts down to the engine room hive (which was woefully unguarded for anything other than a full-frontal attack)...
nobody (besides my friend, who was aware that i knew the map really well) believed that there was any way to get there... i tried explaining about the ducts, but they just continued saying it was impossible.
now anybody that knows bast, knows that you can take the ducts next to the cargo elevator from the marine base right to the engine room hive.
so, i went there with nothing but a lmg and pistol, while all our resources were **obscenity** away on turrets... needless to say, all i did was alert the aliens to a possible attack from the vent, so they reinforced that approach like crazy.
moral of the story?
MARINES NEED TO LEARN THE MAPS!
_understand_ the ductwork. both for your own use, and for the prevention of alien incursion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Atziluth+Nov 8 2002, 04:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Atziluth @ Nov 8 2002, 04:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Gnacox+Nov 8 2002, 02:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gnacox @ Nov 8 2002, 02:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am currently plaing marines for a change, and I must say they got the shaft. Fades are pretty much unstoppable becuse they have very long range and is faster than HA marines, which make them deadly at hit and run tactics. Not to mention that offensive chambers have pretty damn effective now. You can't really outstrafe them with HMG and it takes more than half a clip to take out one single off. tower. The grenade launcher suck now, it takes a whole clip to take out one turret. I just hand the fun experience of having 4 HA marines with grenade launchers, HMG, and welders be outmatched by one fade and a bunch of offensive towers and defensive chambers. Something is wrong with that picture. And no we didn't suck, we had a competent commander and worked as a team. It was a very coordinated attack and yet we got butchered. Conclusion: The roles have been reversed, ie. aliens >>> marines instead of marines >>> aliens (pre-patch).
And no, it isn't because the aliens had to learn or die pre-patch. The game is imbalanced. Done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find this funny as offensive chambers were not majorly changed... the price by 2 points and 100 extra health... yet now they own you? BTW hvy arm was not changed other then a few points to the price... so you are saying although the mechanics did not change you get owned now? something does not add up... Also if your welder was doing his job you could have torn through 1 fade easy... without carapace fades go down in 40 hvy mg bullets... with carapce it takes about 60... point blank that is what? 3 seconds... and there were 4 of you? This does not add up... I play both sides and never encountered a lone fade 2 hvy marines could not take out with accurate shooting. hvy arm absorbs 95% dmg directly to armor... this means you can take 5 shots easy by a fade rocket or 4 swings from their arms before hvy arm gives out. Fades can only shoot 5 rockets even with adreniline before they are tapped out... so if a fade is lucky... he can rocket one hvy marine before the second ganks him... since points are about even I see no issue with this...
the GL does 180 dmg per hit double against buildings... so your clip of 4 does 180x2x4 = 1440 dmg in 4 seconds... since the offensive chamber only has 1200 hp... your math does not add up... you can cut through 5 or 6 offensive chambers in 4 seconds if they are grouped together... 4 seconds! and the GL sucks? You can also dish out 720 to any alien... only thing that MIGHT have a chance (if not a direct hit) is an ono... everything else is putty... Please... look at facts before making broad and speculative statements. I have seen 3 GL marines take out an entire hive (offensive and defensive chambers too) in less then 2 minutes... that is hundreds of resources taken out before aliens can run across the map...
The GL was a cheese weapon and still IS a cheese weapon... nothing on the alien side can compare... the closest is the ono charge that can do around 500 dmg in perfect circumstances and is not area of affect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Offensive turrets are very, very good now because of the ROF, before it was easy to dodge shots from an offensive tower even with HA. Now it is practically impossible with HA. The main reason we couldnt kill the fade was that he kept dodging out of our view, and if we hunted him we would be met with 10 offensive towers on the other side of the door.
Comments
Atziluth - You cut the holier than thou **obscenity** and I will stop flaming you, deal? If you wish to make a point I will be much more inclined to listen to your argument if you use civil posts rather then "Jeff K" esque sentences.
Chill out, people.
So my friends ask me "You've been playing Natural Selection alot... What's it like?" And I tell them "Well, if you have a tiny peepee and feel the need to boost your ego through hollow victories, then you choose to play as aliens. If you feel like trying your hardest only to meet bitter failure, you can play as the marines." And then I change the subject, as I don't want to fully reccomend a game where victory and defeat lies in which species you choose right now.
Wait, what did I just say? Well, no matter how you look at it, the marines are getting their genitals handed to them in plastic baggies. Anyone who says that they have seen over 2 out of 10 Marine victories is either grossly exaggerating, not playing on public servers, or are playing the most grossly incompetent aliens to grace this great mod.
The way it sounds around here, teamwork is the key to victory for Marines. Teamwork, teamwork, TEAMWORK! "U n00bs lose Bcause U need 2 work 2gether!1!!!" No... wait, I take that back. The way it sounds around here, a good commander is the key to victory. "U n00bs lose Bcause ur commandar is dum!1!!"
Without BOTH those things, the Marines WILL fail. What are the chances you'll see this in a public server. Well, play as a marine and you'll soon find out.
Okay, so the Marines use teamwork, move in squads, one guy has a welder, one guy has the MG, one guy has HA. They stand a chance, right? No. They will be red smears soon. Why? Because the aliens are using teamwork, too. Aliens are intended to work independently, but what happens when they work together? It's been stated before (if you care to peruse this trainwreck of a thread), or you could probably guess correctly.
Another popular Marine fallacy is "You need to keep the aliens from getting their third hive." No problem. I've seen it done tons of times. I've even seen them do that and claim a few extra nozzles. But Marines can't be everywhere at once. And they need to stay in squads of at least two or else they will die. Putting up sentries to guard an area where marines can't constantly patrol is almost a joke now.
"Well, you can't just plop down sentries and run away! You need to guard the area!" Yeah, sure. Guard the area. And claim more nozzles. And keep on the offensive. All while working in squads of two or more, or meeting certain death. How many marines do you think there are?
Aliens can plop down offensive towers and defensive towers that heal the offensive towers. In order for a marine to heal a sentry, he has to requisition a welder, move into position, and then heal one sentry at a time. "Well, ask your commander for a welder! That's what he's there for!" Screw you. One welder costs half as much as a resource tower (that he needs to secure in order to upgrade weapons and armor) which will be wiped out because the marines are either spread too thin or are in a squad somewhere else.
Give the marines a fighting chance:
-Resource towers should be cheaper. From 22 credits to 18. If a commander wants to invest a billion credits in turreting the hell out of it, fine. But the marines are going to need to leave it behind to press on. It'll soon be wiped out anyway.
-The knife should kick alien **obscenity**. Seriously. My P-due does more damage against aliens than my knife. Upgraded aliens get a melee attack that kicks **obscenity** along with a ranged attack. I'm not saying the knife should kill aliens like a masterwork broadsword, but if two bites from a piddly alien can kill a marine, then four knife swipes should take out a piddly alien. Yes, Marines should rely on their stronger ranged weapons, but alien ranged ammo regenerates. Marine ammo requires dedicated attention from a commander.
-The commander HUD should have a medic cross above marines that request health, a bullet icon above marines that request ammo, and a question mark above marines when they request orders. When the marines are in a clusterfuck, it's hard to tell who's requesting what.
-The commander HUD should have a list of grunts under his command. He can click on the names to select them. The list also shows thier health and ammo, and which gun they're holding.
-The Marine grunt minimap should show the positions of close marines on it. It would make it easier for a lone marine to group-up with his comrades.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.
There are a lot of inexperinced marine players out there right now. The commander has to be on the ball. That's required. No ifs, ands or buts. Period. That's the most important thing. Secondly, and though not equally as important it's a very close second, comes teamwork.
The marines have a lot of advantages if they play the way they're supposed to. Likewise the aliens. I can honestly say that from the games I've been playing, that the sides genuinely feel more or less balanced. Remember, even though this is a game you can pick up, play, and put down, it's a lot more complex than any other mod out there right now.
It's a casual game for the most part, but perhaps not as friendly to the casual gamer as other mods. You have to take the time to learn it, understand it, and be open to different strategies and ideas.
Me? I love this kind of stuff. But it has had its occasionally frustrating moments during the learning curve.
-Durandal
#1 i have never been in a game that the marines lost where there weren't at least a few marines exploring the map solo. you go solo, you dead. you join the marines if you want to work with a team. when im on the marines im always yelling for people to stick together and they straggle anyway.
#2 everyone wants to be commander. everyone thinks their individual needs are more important. everyone thinks they need a hmg when we only have 20 rps and then they go out and get themselves killed with an expensive weapon which disappears off the floor after 10 seconds.
#3 people don't bother to carry a welder so you got all these guys with slow-moving 0-protection armor.
#4 everybody thinks the commander should drop everything when they find an empty resource spot when they could have saved a group of marines who got slaughtered by a single skulk somewhere else because they had no lookout while they were building the commanders ordered resource tower.
#5 people are quick to kick a commander who is doing perfectly fine! i was in this one game where some hothead kicked our commander and then our commander spent the rest of the game teaching some noob how to command!
i don't have to worry about any of this stuff when im an alien because that level of teamwork is not as important. i mean teamwork is important to aliens but its crucial to marines. so before you start blaming all your troubles on supposedly beefed-up aliens, check yourself and see if any of the above scenarios look familiar.
-Durandal
I mean, look at the beginning of your own post. I could call you a whiner by the same logic!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was sort of my point.. both sides have things they **obscenity** about.
I think it sort of evens out.
I will concede, however, that my marine time is limited.
It's sort of funny -- I join a server, and even though everyone's complaining about teh ub4r al13n 0wnage, the teams are still Marines: 10, Aliens: 7 when I join, and all I can do is go alien. I choose "random team" at the start of the round, and get alien. I manually choose marine, and the round looks like it starts, but the server chooses to change maps instead of actually start.
Maybe I'm just not meant to be a marine....
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Brew
Hammer: The pic is showing me that you missed all 4 shots. If they were DIRECT hits, then they WOULD NOT leave scortch marks. How do I know this? Well in TFC if you are a sold/pyro then and you shoot a rocket and it scores a DIRECT hit then it will explode and leave NO scortch mark.
Also you marines are complaining about aliens building D and O chambers outside your base. Well, heres my solution, GET A FREAKING SIEGE TURRENT OR TWO. It does about 300 dmg PER SHOT and can kill almost any alien in 3-4 shots (only if they are near a building that is being attacked). Seriously, I have played so many games of NS before and after the patch. My total siege turrent sightings, FOUR! FOUR! FOUR! FOUR! I have only seen FOUR siege turrents since Halloween. (Not including my LAN games with those bots <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) GET THOSE SIEGES UP! <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also commanders need to get better. I've played Comm about 5 times now (only for about 10 min each cause my computer gets 4 fps after about 5 min in "the chair") and I've learned that if a turrent starts to shoot it sends a message. You commanders have to send marines out to go check it out, or use your scanner sweep, or upgrade motion tracking.
Just give it a rest with this stupid flame war on the speices. Half of you are n00bs to NS and the forums and don't know how exactly how to fight correctly. Give it a month and the games should be 50/50 and hopefully last 30min-1hour (or if its a really good match 4 hours. Yes, I've played a 4 hour match before. We [the aliens after the patch] eventually LOST.)
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
solution?
take out one of the hives.
so i ask the commander to supply a buddy and I with hmg's or grenade launchers (over 200 rp's available at the time) so i could take the ducts down to the engine room hive (which was woefully unguarded for anything other than a full-frontal attack)...
nobody (besides my friend, who was aware that i knew the map really well) believed that there was any way to get there... i tried explaining about the ducts, but they just continued saying it was impossible.
now anybody that knows bast, knows that you can take the ducts next to the cargo elevator from the marine base right to the engine room hive.
so, i went there with nothing but a lmg and pistol, while all our resources were **obscenity** away on turrets... needless to say, all i did was alert the aliens to a possible attack from the vent, so they reinforced that approach like crazy.
moral of the story?
MARINES NEED TO LEARN THE MAPS!
_understand_ the ductwork. both for your own use, and for the prevention of alien incursion.
Tenaku Out.
Not to mention that offensive chambers have pretty damn effective now. You can't really outstrafe them with HMG and it takes more than half a clip to take out one single off. tower. The grenade launcher suck now, it takes a whole clip to take out one turret.
I just hand the fun experience of having 4 HA marines with grenade launchers, HMG, and welders be outmatched by one fade and a bunch of offensive towers and defensive chambers. Something is wrong with that picture. And no we didn't suck, we had a competent commander and worked as a team. It was a very coordinated attack and yet we got butchered.
Conclusion: The roles have been reversed, ie. aliens >>> marines instead of marines >>> aliens (pre-patch).
And no, it isn't because the aliens had to learn or die pre-patch. The game is imbalanced. Done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find this funny as offensive chambers were not majorly changed... the price by 2 points and 100 extra health... yet now they own you? BTW hvy arm was not changed other then a few points to the price... so you are saying although the mechanics did not change you get owned now? something does not add up... Also if your welder was doing his job you could have torn through 1 fade easy... without carapace fades go down in 40 hvy mg bullets... with carapce it takes about 60... point blank that is what? 3 seconds... and there were 4 of you? This does not add up... I play both sides and never encountered a lone fade 2 hvy marines could not take out with accurate shooting. hvy arm absorbs 95% dmg directly to armor... this means you can take 5 shots easy by a fade rocket or 4 swings from their arms before hvy arm gives out. Fades can only shoot 5 rockets even with adreniline before they are tapped out... so if a fade is lucky... he can rocket one hvy marine before the second ganks him... since points are about even I see no issue with this...
the GL does 180 dmg per hit double against buildings... so your clip of 4 does 180x2x4 = 1440 dmg in 4 seconds... since the offensive chamber only has 1200 hp... your math does not add up... you can cut through 5 or 6 offensive chambers in 4 seconds if they are grouped together... 4 seconds! and the GL sucks? You can also dish out 720 to any alien... only thing that MIGHT have a chance (if not a direct hit) is an ono... everything else is putty... Please... look at facts before making broad and speculative statements. I have seen 3 GL marines take out an entire hive (offensive and defensive chambers too) in less then 2 minutes... that is hundreds of resources taken out before aliens can run across the map...
The GL was a cheese weapon and still IS a cheese weapon... nothing on the alien side can compare... the closest is the ono charge that can do around 500 dmg in perfect circumstances and is not area of affect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Offensive turrets are very, very good now because of the ROF, before it was easy to dodge shots from an offensive tower even with HA. Now it is practically impossible with HA. The main reason we couldnt kill the fade was that he kept dodging out of our view, and if we hunted him we would be met with 10 offensive towers on the other side of the door.