<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Sep 5 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Sep 5 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's funny because pre v3 everyone hated those features. I love how suddenly when they're gone you all decided to have a little cry and whine about it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> well said
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Sep 5 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Sep 5 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's funny because pre v3 everyone hated those features. I love how suddenly when they're gone you all decided to have a little cry and whine about it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I don't know who "everyone" is, but it's been my experience that "everyone" is usually a bad thing to listen to, and in most cases has no idea what it's talking about.
We have enough "fair" NS maps, I think we need a few more "fun" NS maps, and bast had been one of them.
Mr.Ben, you have an uncomparable flair for words <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I didnt ever like Bast (well, after i stopped caring about athmosphere and started caring about gameplay anyway), and I still dont like it now, but I dont go crucify the people who at least try to make it halfway playable <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Mendasp has done a GREAT job with bast... one more than one level!
Bast did not only have gameplay issues but also performance problems (a reason why a couple of admins took the map out of rotation in previous versions). Mendasp managed to get rid of a whole lot of entities (for non mappers: things that do stuff... including causing lags) and replace problematic parts of the map with new areas that allow players to move without any problems.
The fact that Marines can access more areas more quickly is not a bad thing as some people seem to think. I allows more flexible movement and therefore more interessting gameplay. If the new layout puts Marines in a situation where building a base at MS and not doing the "Standard" relocate to double is more attractive, this is definitly a good change for me... think about it. Also keep in mind that not only Marines can access more areas faster than before; the new vents allow aliens to scout the map very fast and react in time to Marine Movement.
Engine being quite a lot closer to Marine Start than the other hives definitly is not what more mappers aim for, however it's by far not an instant loss for Aliens if they start there. MS being close to a Hive is not a one-sided situation in favour fr Marines.. especially not on Bast, where Aliens have a lot of cover and vents they can abush from and/or launch a quick attack on the Marine Base. Currently a lot of Commanders send their troops directly to Engine because they think it's an easy to attack or easy to secure hive (and a locked down a hive early in the game can really make the game a lot easier). anyway knowing this Aliens can try to take advantage of the situation and attack/secure other important locations before the Marines get there.
Ah yes, the revolving door and the MS elevator... I know a whole lot of people are very angry those two elements are gone. Especially the revolving door, wich was the "symbol" of bast... like holoroom is for hera or the phasegates are on daimos. However there are very good reasons they have been removed (And trust me, Mendasp had a very hard time making this descision):
- Performance. As said before, bast (next to hera) is a map wich has a lot of entities and therefore is very demanding when it comes to server resources. This results in higher pings and lags (or even crashes), things neither players nor admins like. So a whole lot of entities had to be modified, exchanged or removed. The revolving door, to give you an example, is not only a rotating platform... because of the geometry a couple of additional entities are required just to make sure players don't get squished while using the door (wich happened from time to time anyway). When every entity counts, removing a single element with a total of around 10 entities is a very welcome pick.
- Gameplay. Yes, the revolving door and the elevator added to the "feeling", the ambience of the map, however they caused some negative effects on the gameflow wich I won't miss a bit. The Marine Start was seperated from the rest of the map. You either had to use the revolving door or the elevator (or ladder) to get out. Using any of those things slowed Marines down quite a lot and gave nearby Aliens a very nice warning signal. Because Main Aft Juction is a very accessable Area for Aliens during almost the whole game, chances were quite good that a Marine would use the door just to find himself in fromt of a nice WoL... with no way to escape... and no way to use greandes to clear them from around the corner. Last but not least both elevator and revolving door dragged out the endgame quite a lot if Aliens were winning the round, because Oni (and Gorges with Bile Bomb) had a much harder time to get in, hit the base and then get out to regenerate than on other maps. Bast had a lot more "get in and do as many damage as you can before you die" end-games than I've seen on other maps. People get bored of such situations quite fast and we see the "omg let's f4" again and again.
So... those are my two cents on the bast changes. Some of you might agree, a lot of you might not. But I hope that at least some of you might understand that there are more reasons for the bast changes than simply to give people stuff to complain about. I hope people will try around a bit and see the positive effects the changes brought and give mendasp the credit he deserves for his hard work.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Once again, Bast, due to the new changes, is my favorite map. I used to think bast was ok, but the new changes made bast AWESOME. You people saying "OMG the map sux" and you havn't even tried it, then go try it. It is definitely 4 x better than it used to be.
<!--QuoteBegin-NolSinkler+Sep 5 2004, 11:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NolSinkler @ Sep 5 2004, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Once again, Bast, due to the new changes, is my favorite map. I used to think bast was ok, but the new changes made bast AWESOME. You people saying "OMG the map sux" and you havn't even tried it, then go try it. It is definitely 4 x better than it used to be.
Good job Mendasp and Mr. Ben!
BAST FTW <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There were other people on the bast team you know, these guys took the leadership and PR roles... GJ all bast RM peoples <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The ladder didn't really slow you down, not unless you'd a camper, and even then you could hop to the opposite ladder. GG.
As for "omgftw door early alarm system", it swang both ways. Anything coming through instantly alerted the other side. Also, it was a fantastic deathtrap if you pinned anything near it... no quick escapes for mr hit and run onos. Marines knew something was incoming, and aliens would know they were about to have company in main aft.
No server I ever played on removed it from the cycle, and I've been here since 2.0 and I've always had nothing but bigbig love for Bast.
Mappers prerogative, and its their stuff so they can change what they like (hello George Lucas) and the map DOES flow faster... but it just feels like the guts of what made Bast "Bast" have been ripped out.
Doesn't mean I hate the new map, I just miss the old flow. Make sense?
Well to be honest, now that I have played it more, it certainly does make the map play much more smoothly, however I still think the changes took away allot of the fun, and most certainly took away basts defining features.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Sep 4 2004, 11:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Sep 4 2004, 11:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why couldn't you guys just leave bast alone? I thought it was perfect the way it was.
Now it's missing the revolving door, that little sprite was like a kick in the jaw! The marine spawn is to close to the engine hive, the elevator is gone, everything just connects too easily! It's horrible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree reasa. I miss the door.
It was really funny when you killed an enemy by turning the door. Especially if it was an onos. Then we all be like "dude u r da onos killar machien!!1"
My funniest experience with the door: I was part of a skulk ambush-assault party and we were about to go though that door into MS. I pressed the door lever to send it arround once with none of us in it and then turned it again. We had a WoL on our side of the door. Anyways we went arround but what we didn't know is that some marines had jumped in the other half, effectively makking a circle-jerk like situation. The only reason we knew that soem rines were on the other side in the door as we were rotating ws that we heard the OC firing and saw the marine deaths on the display.
<!--QuoteBegin-CF-Insane+Sep 7 2004, 06:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CF-Insane @ Sep 7 2004, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i personally think that the current marine spawn is a good place for a hive while refinary is a good marine spawn <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bizzare suggestion but with some texture editing it might work.
I like it! I lick it. I lick it a lot. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bast is one of the most beautiful maps and is best with a few people.
I liked the old bast much better, however, there is a stroke of genius I must say overcame feedwater -> tram tunnel. That vent system you added that comes from Feedwater to 3 or 4 exits into Tram Tunnel gave me chills! Stall was right behind me, and I turned and said "I'll take left, you go right" and we turned our flashlights on and crouched through the vents, ever waiting for a skulk to appear. It was dark, sinister, scary, and kept me active until I saw the end of the vent into tunnel. I was like "Yo, comm, see where I am? Drop me a med as soon as I drop"
Soon enough, we landed square into tram tunnel, and saved a Phase Gate/Turret Factory outpost under attack. The team phased in and we took out the hive shortly afterwards. Just thought I would add that comment.
The changes are all good, MS is no longer the most turtle-friendly spot in the world and engine has 2 exits (even if it is a little too accessible from MS)
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj`+Sep 5 2004, 05:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Sep 5 2004, 05:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance > Atmophere. Who cares how it looks, ns_bast was by far the most unbalanced and unplayable map in the game. Mendasp and Co rebuilt it so that maybe it will be playable in competitive play with some more changes. Who cares if "the lift was cool", it along with the elevator made MS impossible to leave as marines, yet impossible to enter as aliens. Well, you could enter, but you damn well wouldn't get out alive. It was terribly made in terms of balance, and it was corrected. Kudos to Mendasp and the rest of the team for understanding what needed to be done, ignore the naysayers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> let's not use it competitively then. might as well just design a new map
I rather enjoy the new Bast. I think once the issues with hive proximity are fixed (I mean really, you can jog to engine in no time at all from MS), it'll be better than the old Bast. Marine start seems easier to enter as a skulk now, but also easier to leave as a marine, so I don't have any issues with it. I'm liking the layout, and cover for both marines and skulks. The map has plenty of great ambushing spots, but seems to keep them far enough apart so that aliens have plenty of options all over the map. I have noticed that marine start seems to be a bit laggy, when I don't have troubles with the rest of the map, though. All in all, I like it more than all of the old Basts.
Comments
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
well said
Well I don't know who "everyone" is, but it's been my experience that "everyone" is usually a bad thing to listen to, and in most cases has no idea what it's talking about.
We have enough "fair" NS maps, I think we need a few more "fun" NS maps, and bast had been one of them.
Bast did not only have gameplay issues but also performance problems (a reason why a couple of admins took the map out of rotation in previous versions). Mendasp managed to get rid of a whole lot of entities (for non mappers: things that do stuff... including causing lags) and replace problematic parts of the map with new areas that allow players to move without any problems.
The fact that Marines can access more areas more quickly is not a bad thing as some people seem to think. I allows more flexible movement and therefore more interessting gameplay. If the new layout puts Marines in a situation where building a base at MS and not doing the "Standard" relocate to double is more attractive, this is definitly a good change for me... think about it.
Also keep in mind that not only Marines can access more areas faster than before; the new vents allow aliens to scout the map very fast and react in time to Marine Movement.
Engine being quite a lot closer to Marine Start than the other hives definitly is not what more mappers aim for, however it's by far not an instant loss for Aliens if they start there. MS being close to a Hive is not a one-sided situation in favour fr Marines.. especially not on Bast, where Aliens have a lot of cover and vents they can abush from and/or launch a quick attack on the Marine Base. Currently a lot of Commanders send their troops directly to Engine because they think it's an easy to attack or easy to secure hive (and a locked down a hive early in the game can really make the game a lot easier). anyway knowing this Aliens can try to take advantage of the situation and attack/secure other important locations before the Marines get there.
Ah yes, the revolving door and the MS elevator... I know a whole lot of people are very angry those two elements are gone. Especially the revolving door, wich was the "symbol" of bast... like holoroom is for hera or the phasegates are on daimos. However there are very good reasons they have been removed (And trust me, Mendasp had a very hard time making this descision):
- Performance. As said before, bast (next to hera) is a map wich has a lot of entities and therefore is very demanding when it comes to server resources. This results in higher pings and lags (or even crashes), things neither players nor admins like. So a whole lot of entities had to be modified, exchanged or removed.
The revolving door, to give you an example, is not only a rotating platform... because of the geometry a couple of additional entities are required just to make sure players don't get squished while using the door (wich happened from time to time anyway). When every entity counts, removing a single element with a total of around 10 entities is a very welcome pick.
- Gameplay. Yes, the revolving door and the elevator added to the "feeling", the ambience of the map, however they caused some negative effects on the gameflow wich I won't miss a bit. The Marine Start was seperated from the rest of the map. You either had to use the revolving door or the elevator (or ladder) to get out. Using any of those things slowed Marines down quite a lot and gave nearby Aliens a very nice warning signal. Because Main Aft Juction is a very accessable Area for Aliens during almost the whole game, chances were quite good that a Marine would use the door just to find himself in fromt of a nice WoL... with no way to escape... and no way to use greandes to clear them from around the corner.
Last but not least both elevator and revolving door dragged out the endgame quite a lot if Aliens were winning the round, because Oni (and Gorges with Bile Bomb) had a much harder time to get in, hit the base and then get out to regenerate than on other maps. Bast had a lot more "get in and do as many damage as you can before you die" end-games than I've seen on other maps. People get bored of such situations quite fast and we see the "omg let's f4" again and again.
So... those are my two cents on the bast changes. Some of you might agree, a lot of you might not. But I hope that at least some of you might understand that there are more reasons for the bast changes than simply to give people stuff to complain about. I hope people will try around a bit and see the positive effects the changes brought and give mendasp the credit he deserves for his hard work.
Flame on, Garth.
/Hyper
Good job Mendasp and Mr. Ben!
BAST FTW
Good job Mendasp and Mr. Ben!
BAST FTW <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There were other people on the bast team you know, these guys took the leadership and PR roles... GJ all bast RM peoples <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for "omgftw door early alarm system", it swang both ways. Anything coming through instantly alerted the other side. Also, it was a fantastic deathtrap if you pinned anything near it... no quick escapes for mr hit and run onos. Marines knew something was incoming, and aliens would know they were about to have company in main aft.
No server I ever played on removed it from the cycle, and I've been here since 2.0 and I've always had nothing but bigbig love for Bast.
Mappers prerogative, and its their stuff so they can change what they like (hello George Lucas) and the map DOES flow faster... but it just feels like the guts of what made Bast "Bast" have been ripped out.
Doesn't mean I hate the new map, I just miss the old flow. Make sense?
Ballance dosen't always equal fun.
That being said, the only problems I have with the map is:
The broken door...it dosen't look that good using brushes. Better if it was removed and replaced with a model.
The short drop off where the big elevator use to be looks tacky. Just personal opinion, it works ok for gameplay.
Be honest?
Meh nothing I can do anyway.
Now it's missing the revolving door, that little sprite was like a kick in the jaw!
The marine spawn is to close to the engine hive, the elevator is gone, everything just connects too easily! It's horrible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree reasa. I miss the door.
It was really funny when you killed an enemy by turning the door. Especially if it was an onos. Then we all be like "dude u r da onos killar machien!!1"
My funniest experience with the door:
I was part of a skulk ambush-assault party and we were about to go though that door into MS. I pressed the door lever to send it arround once with none of us in it and then turned it again. We had a WoL on our side of the door. Anyways we went arround but what we didn't know is that some marines had jumped in the other half, effectively makking a circle-jerk like situation. The only reason we knew that soem rines were on the other side in the door as we were rotating ws that we heard the OC firing and saw the marine deaths on the display.
Bizzare suggestion but with some texture editing it might work.
I like it! I lick it. I lick it a lot. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bast is one of the most beautiful maps and is best with a few people.
Soon enough, we landed square into tram tunnel, and saved a Phase Gate/Turret Factory outpost under attack. The team phased in and we took out the hive shortly afterwards. Just thought I would add that comment.
any1 else see the hologram on the revolving door in bast?
let's not use it competitively then. might as well just design a new map