Is Combat Alien Dominance?

ScyllaScylla Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18942Members
<div class="IPBDescription">… Or I am wrong?</div> having a own 20 slot server I don’t see very much marine wins … only if marines are much better or alien just make some big mistakes like not healing the hive or getting no web gorge as counter to jetpackers.

Especially with the new Beta 5 it seem to me that alien even got more power. Marines have to deal with a lot of un-counter able threats while aliens always have a counter to marine threats.

1. Xenocide
With xenocide you can deliver a high amount of damage and can gain easy kills. Also you won’t give any experience to the marines. It’s nearly impossible to counter a good xeno-leap. SoF makes the job even easier and if you want be sure you don’t get killed while leaping take Cara. Another plus is even if you don’t kill a marine within the blast area their armour will get highly decreased and they are much easier to kill.

2. The new Uberonos
Onos costs only 4 experience points and so they will show up earlier and they have 5 points left for upgrades or hive abilities. It’s not fun to deal with a Carapace-Redemption-Adrenaline-Celerity-Stomp-Onos. Also carapace is now a very benefiting upgrade for Onos and Redemption got also a boost.

3. Webs
With webs you’re able to secure the hive very easy against jetpacker. So as jetpacker you have to deal with xeno-exploding skulks and focus-aliens while trying to manoeuvre through all these webs. Forget about welding while you are in the hive. Ok the grenade launcher is a good and easy way to get rid of these webs. But even if you get the entire web off as jetpacker with grenade launcher a good web-gorge webs it in some seconds while you have to wait till your grenade launcher is reloaded.

4. Focus
Focus is an easy counter on resuply. A xeno-attack, some spores or after getting hit while fighting an alien and you’re ready for the single-hit-kill with focus. Focus makes also hit&run very effective way getting kills and even if you don’t kill a marine his armour is lost anyways. If your team gets some welders you loose points in offensive or defensive (long life) techs.

5. Marines can’t tech to their max
While alien can get Uber-Skulks, Uber-Lerks, Uber-Fades, Uber-Onos the marines can’t even tech to a HA/HMG/Welder/WU3.

6. Marines cant change their tech tree
Alien are able to react on threats by evolving into the best counter alien life form while marines are stucked in their selected techs.

7. Marines need more teamwork
Alien can operate alone as spore-ing focus-lerk, hit&run focus-fade or as Uber-Onos. And if you operate in groups you will be a nice target for xeno-skulks.

Just my 0.02 EUR.
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Comments

  • ZunniZunni The best thing to happen to I&amp;S in a long while Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 10016Members
    This is fascinating, and certainly a contrast to the people who have been posting everywhere else that aliens just can't win for any reason.

    Compiling actual number stats may be useful. For what it's worth, I find the games split pretty evenly, in large games if marines can get enough aliens dead and rush the hive before respawn they can generally do a significant amount of damage to the hive before respawn and can have "some" success in spawn-camping. However, if the aliens play smart, and don't just simply rush the marines, or work from co-ordinated rushes, they can have sucess with attacking the chair.

    This also depends on what roles people feel like playing, if no-one gorges/welds the chair, then that side generally loses.

    So this is a refreshing perspective, but I suspect your conclusions may differ from others perceptions..
  • Diablo_fxDiablo_fx Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13793Members
    Note the i haven't played since 4a, combat is heawyly alien based, tbh aliens allways wins if they don't die in the first 3 mins.
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    dont post your opinios or experiences from a build u havent played :DADADAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    ... and as i havent played b5 CO either, no comment.
  • RaVeRaVe Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17538Members
    Those statistics are quite weird as experienced marines with jetpacks decimate hives in a few seconds.

    Maybe you have dedicated alien players?

    All I know is that jetpacks are almost back to 1.04 maneuverability IIRC.
  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    edited September 2004
    Contrary to popular belief, aliens have a massive advantage in combat that is exploited by non-<span style='color:white'>Kindly find yourself a new swearword.</span> skulks that don't rush out and die en masse as soon as they spawn. I swear many pubbers have a mentality that the skulk can just run up to marines and kill them, and that's something the Guide program is focused on right now and will hopefully begin affecting as early as next week (training program is being beta'd right now). The people saying aliens blow and never win either classic or combat are the ones that usually don't understand the mechanics of the alien side. While I think early game skulks suck and third hive abilities for onos and fade need a buff, if you can survive early game and get a second hive up as aliens you stand a good chance of winning. A good fade and/or lerk can normally hold the game on their own at that point, so it doesn't matter how retarded the skulks are.
  • crisanocrisano Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31152Members
    As Adj has stated, I also believe that the aliens have the bigger advantage in combat games if the alien players are smart, not mindless fodder feeder for the marines. It's all about the early game, whichever team feeds the other team first loses, simple as that. It's really hard to counter SGs when you have 90% skulks and it's really hard to counter focus skulks or early fades when half your team have armor 0. Teamwork and being smart play very important roles in these types of games, it's just sad that in pubs you don't see it too often, thus people start whining and screaming about unbalance.
  • ScyllaScylla Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18942Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is fascinating, and certainly a contrast to the people who have been posting everywhere else that aliens just can't win for any reason.

    Compiling actual number stats may be useful..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I wrote an own statistics tool pumping the log-files into a SQL-database so I’m able to mine that data. With Beta 4a we had over 80% alien wins. In some weeks I’m able to deliver rationality results for Beta 5.
    A reason is for sure that my server has a very large base of regular players who knows how to play as alien. For example currently are 15 regulars on my 20 slot server.

    <!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For what it's worth, I find the games split pretty evenly, in large games if marines can get enough aliens dead and rush the hive before respawn they can generally do a significant amount of damage to the hive before respawn and can have "some" success in spawn-camping. However, if the aliens play smart, and don't just simply rush the marines, or work from co-ordinated rushes, they can have sucess with attacking the chair. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    From my observation it’s not possible to rush the hive and spawn-camp with a good amount of regulars in the alien team. And if you’re able to reach the hive you can be sure they just about to attacking the cc and spawn-camp at the marine start getting their share of experience.

    <!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This also depends on what roles people feel like playing, if no-one gorges/welds the chair, then that side generally loses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I excluded especially these games one side make a big mistake like not welding the command chair or healing the hive or not webbing if there are jetpack marines.

    <!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->…, but I suspect your conclusions may differ from others perceptions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I try to estimate based on my observations and the conclusions of it and not based on my perceptions. And yea ... the games on my server changed the perceptions of some players out there.

    To describe it a typical combat game out of my perspective:

    As marine I usually choose Resuply, AU1, WU1 and Shotgun as my first upgrades. The order may different based on my experience gain and threats I face. Afterwards I’m always under-tech’ed to handle alien threats. In the worst cases I have to face an Onos with no upgrades or a Fade with one upgrade and don’t forget xenocide skulks. After Level 5 and same skills the odds are badly against marines.

    As alien just don’t rush and gain some experience. If you got 3 experience points just go Fade gain also some experience and afterwards it don’t matter what you do. Get focus and do the hit&run game or go Onos and choose upgrades you like most (carapace and redemption are very effective). The only thing you also need is a web/healing-gorge. If marines don’t have many HA’s you can also go out for the xenocide SoF skulk. That’s sound too easy for me.


    What would be a solution for balance?

    One interesting idea would be if the alien are the attacking team. This way marines have a clear objective and could go out for offensive techs to kill alien most efficient.

    Another way would be a faster and cheaper tech’ing after level 5. Welder should be always possible to select without losing experience points (maybe as default additional to jetpack or HA).

    That are only ideas and I know how difficult it is to balance it.
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    I recall an amusing incident on this week, as the new reserved slot server got up.. Anyhows, rines got heavy and stuff.. then after awhile 1 marine said, think it was MtMe's Afr..

    "OMG, a welding heavy team, OMG"


    <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • Ryse_SladeRyse_Slade Germany Join Date: 2002-12-22 Member: 11349Members, Constellation
    Most servers have a crazy time limit (20 or 30 minutes) so marine players are used to having very much time. They start camping their base or a good spot and don't even try to attack the hive until they get JP or SG. That mentality kills the game for marines because they don't start attacking until 10 minutes into the game. By this time aliens have some higher evolutions (if not they are going to lose) and win the game whatever the time limit is. Marines HAVE to win in early game or they lose.

    I haven't played many combat games lately because my favourite server provider dropped most of its NS servers but from those ~20 games (on random servers) I played, marines won around 50% (and 99% of those in early game).
  • MrGunnerMrGunner Join Date: 2003-01-03 Member: 11757Members, Constellation
    As for the comment on good jetpackers being able to take down a hive part : That only happens in the first 10 minutes or if the alien team is stupid. After that you have 2 or more gorges healing and webbing the hive and uber fades/lerks defending. And do you know how hard it is to hit a hive in some of the hive rooms when you have a large onos in there? Some of the hive rooms are damn small.
  • Fog_cartoonsFog_cartoons Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20658Members
    It really just matter on the players on each side and the map.

    So many people just say, "GAR OVERPOWERED, PHAAAAAROAR" when actually the maps create a huge difference in play, I think Combat is quite alright at the moment.
  • JamlJaml Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9054Members
    If the aliens evolve early and have a webgorge they have an easy time with the marines. Luckily on pubs the aliens go for upgrades not noticing that you can have all the upgrades you want but a sg will still kill you in one blast. Marines only dominate if aliens dont put their higher lifeforms to good use.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Sep 10 2004, 07:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Sep 10 2004, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> having a own 20 slot server I don’t see very much marine wins … only if marines are much better or alien just make some big mistakes like not healing the hive or getting no web gorge as counter to jetpackers.

    Especially with the new Beta 5 it seem to me that alien even got more power. Marines have to deal with a lot of un-counter able threats while aliens always have a counter to marine threats.

    1. Xenocide
    With xenocide you can deliver a high amount of damage and can gain easy kills. Also you won’t give any experience to the marines. It’s nearly impossible to counter a good xeno-leap. SoF makes the job even easier and if you want be sure you don’t get killed while leaping take Cara. Another plus is even if you don’t kill a marine within the blast area their armour will get highly decreased and they are much easier to kill.

    2. The new Uberonos
    Onos costs only 4 experience points and so they will show up earlier and they have 5 points left for upgrades or hive abilities. It’s not fun to deal with a Carapace-Redemption-Adrenaline-Celerity-Stomp-Onos. Also carapace is now a very benefiting upgrade for Onos and Redemption got also a boost.

    3. Webs
    With webs you’re able to secure the hive very easy against jetpacker. So as jetpacker you have to deal with xeno-exploding skulks and focus-aliens while trying to manoeuvre through all these webs. Forget about welding while you are in the hive. Ok the grenade launcher is a good and easy way to get rid of these webs. But even if you get the entire web off as jetpacker with grenade launcher a good web-gorge webs it in some seconds while you have to wait till your grenade launcher is reloaded.

    4. Focus
    Focus is an easy counter on resuply. A xeno-attack, some spores or after getting hit while fighting an alien and you’re ready for the single-hit-kill with focus. Focus makes also hit&run very effective way getting kills and even if you don’t kill a marine his armour is lost anyways. If your team gets some welders you loose points in offensive or defensive (long life) techs.

    5. Marines can’t tech to their max
    While alien can get Uber-Skulks, Uber-Lerks, Uber-Fades, Uber-Onos the marines can’t even tech to a HA/HMG/Welder/WU3.

    6. Marines cant change their tech tree
    Alien are able to react on threats by evolving into the best counter alien life form while marines are stucked in their selected techs.

    7. Marines need more teamwork
    Alien can operate alone as spore-ing focus-lerk, hit&run focus-fade or as Uber-Onos. And if you operate in groups you will be a nice target for xeno-skulks.

    Just my 0.02 EUR. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I do believe clanners who have complained about combat have brought this up for over 6 months now, but with more people catching on there is one thing you need to understand:

    <b> Xeno</b> is the easily most dominating attack early on, possible to get since it's right before leap. Remove xeno and marines have a much stronger fighting chance.

    [b]webs[b] are the next worst thing about combat, not only because it's the strongest ability in the game... but follows the second strongest ability in the game, xeno.

    As long as about 1/4 of your team does this you are invincible:

    - Leap
    - Xeno (keep doing this till you get another 2 levels)
    - Then you go gorge, and get adren.
    - Good game marines

    When I suggested to Flay combat changes he should havefor b5, I didn't want to fundamentally change the game while allowing skilled marines who focus on slaughtering aliens to gain the advantage by sending aliens back into respawn as skulks.

    The uberonos, while much better now, is still easy to kill as he must be away from the hive. Futhermore he's extreamlly suspectable to hmgs, and esp. jetpacks. The onos is good but definately counterable.

    Also, focus is really good, but focus is nessesary to kill jetpackers.

    And while marines cannot tech to their max, aliens cannot either - they are always stuck at one hive, meaning their armor is only at hive 1 effectiveness.

    Marines don't need to change their tech tree, because they weren't diverse to begain with. And really against a good marine team aliens need more teamwork to beat it, it's just once aliens have the teamwork in place marines are never going to win in the current beta.



    Changes I'd like to see to combat right now:

    - Xeno removed
    - Webbing removed

    With these removed I'd believe combat would be nearly 100% balanced -

    If that STILL isn't enough nerfs to the alien class then what you need to do is make it so marines start with 1 level, so they can push really hard at the start.
  • rennexrennex Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2688Members
    On a pub, an excellent marine will dominate an entire alien team and win the game. On a server with a decent skill level or a clan match, aliens will win. Focus fades are unstoppable.
  • KaMiKaZe1KaMiKaZe1 Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9196Members
    ...And then we remember that this is combat we are talking about.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    edited September 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On a pub, an excellent marine will dominate an entire alien team and win the game. On a server with a decent skill level or a clan match, aliens will win. Focus fades are unstoppable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is only because the crappy alien players feed the good marine who then gets jetpack in 6 min and ends the game.


    I love to pub on combat, and when I do I always realize it's basically a race against time -


    I have to go out there and kill more marines and get to the fade before the pubbers feed the marines unto too much tech for me to handle.

    It's guinely harder to win when your entire alien team sucks, as opposed to your entire marine team sucking they can just get GL's or something.


    Or if your pubbers are smart and get xeno... then you are all set. But generally as an alien I need to bhop out really fast and get kills before the marines get to lv. 8 and stomp the hive with a jetpack, by the time jetpacks roll around you need fade and focus, and most likely carapace too if they have a lot of HMG's. (or good aim)


    When i play marine, I hate it how some guys just camp because they know they are gonna get fed with skulk-exp... I always rush as a marine, otherwise you aren't challenging yourself and aren't getting better as a player, you are simply wasting your time.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...And then we remember that this is combat we are talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    In my oppinion, pub combat is supperior to pub NS because pubbing ns sucks with people who don't know what they are doing. Basically on a pub NS, all you do is get kills, so why not play combat instead, where you can keep your weapons, play with the bigger lifeforms, and be in constant action, and lack of terrible commanders?

    Sorry but I've been spoiled by clan play.
  • JojoshuaJojoshua NS Guide Professor Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5233Members
    edited September 2004
    Well, it depends on one thing if the aliens dominate. Gorges and web. This alone can make a very skilled and strong marine team loose when they should win. I'd love to see webs gone.

    edit: Combat owns.
  • wallerwaller Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28281Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->by the time jetpacks roll around you need fade and focus, and most likely carapace too if they have a lot of HMG's. (or good aim)
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Good aim <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> We're talking about the pub where the pistol is used for spraying.
  • ThardinThardin Join Date: 2004-01-05 Member: 25081Members
    Well, maybe xeno and web do need to be removed even though it'd screw over skulks and gorges for battle purposes.
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-Thardin+Sep 11 2004, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thardin @ Sep 11 2004, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, maybe xeno and web do need to be removed even though it'd screw over skulks and gorges for battle purposes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well gorges without webbing would be a lot more limited,

    You still have leap/bite as skulk, which is really good on it's own. The main thing which kills battle skulks IMO is the GL, takes no aim, no talent, and wipes the floor with skulks.

    This alone wouldn't be so bad if GL's actually killed everything.

    There's nothing worse than seeing a "safety zone" for marines because they walk inside of GL spam. It's downright overpowered and silly.

    What should be done is to make it so mirror damage is on for GL users... so that if they spam their team-mates, the GL user recieves all the damage he's dealt to his teammates back to him.

    In clan games, the GL is much more limited because it kills not only little skulks, but your teammates armor as well if you spray it casually, which can really screw you over in a fight.

    But obviously if GL's hurt your teammates llamas would abuse it. That's why it should hurt the GL user, as then the GL user wouldn't spam his teammates with it (unless he wants to die).
  • DelphiDelphi Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15134Members, Constellation
    edited September 2004
    I've been on pubs and pugs, and not once have I seen a game that aliens won (after three minutes had elapsed) where aliens killed the CC. I've seen them rush inexorably fast and obliterate the marine team in a minute or two, then spend the rest of the time spawncamping while one guy *coughmecough* munches the chair to oblivion, but most alien wins I've seen are by time.

    Alien win/loss ratios are HEAVILY dependant on time. A 10 minute game is near always an alien win, just because the marine team has to pull together somewhat and hit that hive HARD. A 25 minute game is near (NEAR! I've seen alien wins with 25 min timers) impossible for aliens to win, unless THEY pull together, ambush, and DEFEND THE HIVE, instead of ramboing off as a fade trying to get in one or two utterly and pathetically useless swipes off on the comm chair. Slivers of a level notwithstanding.

    People have to treat b5 entirely different from any other version of NS now, considering the amount of bugfixes that went in. The playing community is slowly starting to realize that, and aliens are winning more and more.

    Damn, I missed my 666th post. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    I have reason to believe 15 min is the most balance time for combat.
  • ScyllaScylla Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18942Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-HA|Striker+Sep 11 2004, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HA|Striker @ Sep 11 2004, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most servers have a crazy time limit (20 or 30 minutes) so marine players are used to having very much time. They start camping their base or a good spot and don't even try to attack the hive until they get JP or SG. That mentality kills the game for marines because they don't start attacking until 10 minutes into the game. By this time aliens have some higher evolutions (if not they are going to lose) and win the game whatever the time limit is. Marines HAVE to win in early game or they lose.

    I haven't played many combat games lately because my favourite server provider dropped most of its NS servers but from those ~20 games (on random servers) I played, marines won around 50% (and 99% of those in early game). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hi Atlas,

    That’s surly a good point but you must remember it’s not that hard to reach level. 5 in some minutes and imho it’s the point in the game alien start to getting a big advantage. So as marines you have to try to kill the hive within 3-4 minutes.

    Even if it the gameplay was meant that kind it isn’t satisfying for both teams. If marines are on the winning streak alien will get spawn-camped early and as marines if you don’t kill the hive in the first 3-4 minutes you have a hard time till the end of the game.

    And even as the most rounds are carried out offensive by the marine team on my server i see much more alien wins.
  • ScyllaScylla Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18942Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b> Xeno</b> is the easily most dominating attack early on, possible to get since it's right before leap.  Remove xeno and marines have a much stronger fighting chance.

    [b]webs[b] are the next worst thing about combat, not only because it's the strongest ability in the game... but follows the second strongest ability in the game, xeno.

    As long as about 1/4 of your team does this you are invincible:

    -  Leap
    -  Xeno (keep doing this till you get another 2 levels)
    -  Then you go gorge, and get adren.
    -  Good game marines
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    100% ACK.


    <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The uberonos, while much better now, is still easy to kill as he must be away from the hive.  Futhermore he's extreamlly suspectable to hmgs, and esp. jetpacks.  The onos is good but definately counterable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Personally I have an easy time as alien if I go out for Onos -> Redemption -> Carapace -> Celertity. With that upgrades I have games I never get killed as Onos because Redemption saves me. And the second upgrade gives me a extra time for Redemption to work and the third Celerity too as I can hide behind a corner covering me from fire while I wait till Redemption works.

    <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, focus is really good, but focus is nessesary to kill jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That’s rights. You need focus to kill jetpack marines with resuply but it’s a factor to alien dominance.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Sep 12 2004, 12:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Sep 12 2004, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, focus is really good, but focus is nessesary to kill jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That’s rights. You need focus to kill jetpack marines with resuply but it’s a factor to alien dominance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'd think a good thing would be making jetpacks with resupply have resupply only work once they touch the ground. They'd still hear the medpack/ammo drop when they're in the air, but only get it the instant they touch the ground. That would also simulate real coms who aren't exactly able to put 5 medpacks exactly on a jetpacking marine, especially since you can't put them directly on the marine anymore.
  • Commie_SpyCommie_Spy Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31627Members
    edited September 2004
    it all depends on the players... like always... end of story...

    this is the only new trend that i am really seeing... now that you have to evolve eeeevery siiingle tiiime into a higher lifeform... im seing alot less fades and alot more skulks. xenociding leap focus skulks is the new shiznite. and for some god unknown reason, alot of tricked out skulks are somehow superior to alot of tricked out rines w/ lvl 3 hmgs and whatnot.

    <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    [edit]

    spelling im dumb
  • Ryse_SladeRyse_Slade Germany Join Date: 2002-12-22 Member: 11349Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it all depends on the players... like always... end of story...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Agreed!

    Since combat was first released I always knew there is no way to balance combat with unlimited lifeforms (but I am NOT a friend of limited alien lifeforms). Obviously the playtesters never played combat in its extreme. Example given ALL aliens evolve to lerk (or fade or onos or gorge). Think about a whole alien team going fade. They would slaugther the marine team.
    Yes, it all depends on the players... if they (aliens) all evolve to higher lifeforms there is no way marines could ever win a game.

    I hardly ever get resupply + JP but it's incredible how much most marines rely on that upgrade. It does not only give you full health all the time you get ammo too. But the most important advantage is: When you are under attack you just have to dodge for a second and every alien not using focus can't kill you.

    IMHO the time limit should be hard coded to 15 minutes and the marine team should get 11 (!) levels. That way games would not depend on server admins (time limit) and marines would become stronger in late game.
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-HA|Striker+Sep 11 2004, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HA|Striker @ Sep 11 2004, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines HAVE to win in early game or they lose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have played multiple combat games where marines won on the last minute(15-20min servers), and each time it had involved higher lifeforms, jp'er, heavys with gl's, and healing gorges. I recall them like i played them yesterday cause it was so cool. And unfortinally, those kind of victories are getting rarer and rarer :I..

    As for the timelimits, i'd vouch for setting it to 15min and not being able to change it. Theres so many servers out there nowdays with +30 min timelimit and i cant stress enough how they suck.
  • kabuumkabuum Join Date: 2004-07-25 Member: 30108Members
    edited September 2004
    <span style='color:white'>Stay on topic.</span>
  • DantemssDantemss Join Date: 2003-12-13 Member: 24305Members
    edited September 2004
    Talking seriously I think the problem is not simple. What happens right now on marine wins are almost always this:

    1- Marines get out of spawn and walk in a group. Normally that group would end after a few mindless skulk rushes, but...
    2- Wave spawn kicks in and sends another group.
    3- Mindless skulks keep feeding the rines.
    4- Marines get shotgun at level 3. (they laugh at focus because of the cost)
    5- The new crosshair allows even a newbie to kill anything with a shotgun.
    6- Marines level up and get JPs 3-6min into the game, due to more mindless rushing.
    7- People prefer to play as focus skulks or to go fade and die to 5 marines with shotgun that are walking together due to wave spawn. Respawn, regestate and repeat.
    8- If there are webs, a single GL or someone with a welder takes care of the webs.
    9(optional)- The admin decides games must be longer and sets the time limit to 20 minutes.
    10- GG aliens.

    Considering balanced teams, failing to do any of the above (except number 9) results in an alien win. The problem is getting pubbers not to do mindless rushing on the marines. And even if you ambush, how can you kill 3+ marines as a skulk? You need help ambushing and you usually don't get that in pubs.

    And where is combat usually played? In pubs. A good alien team stack may win, of course, but the "Pros" prefer to stack marines, since it's easier.

    If aliens keep winning on your server, I may go in and see what they do <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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