Unchained Chambers
MEShootHere
Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 6975Members
Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 6975Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Yay or Nay?</div> As with my previous post I shall state that this topic is free to be locked or deleted if it turns into a flame war of any sorts. I shall also state again that if one does not have anything valid to say or anything constructive to add to this conversation I ask of you to refrain from posting.
Recently there has been a lot of talk about unchained chambers and as a result many servers run a plugin that allows the unchained chambers to be used.
But why did such a plugin see the light of day?
My personal opinion is that people are sick of the ever returning DMS order.
As an avid Kharaa player myself I notice that this trend can really make the rounds endlessly similar for the Kharaa and makes every round just a copy of the previous one.
The main problem of why this happens is that (and this is logical) people play to win.
As I stated in a newbie guide quite some time back the DMS order is in most circumstances the ideal way to give marines a nice challenge considering the higher lifeforms almost all need some form of regenration (lerks, fades and oni) and that adrenaline is mostly useful for the lerk and fade. They can both constantly spam their skill, retire if hit and heal themselves only to return and do the same in the hopes of breaking that line of defense the marines put up.
It is a natural consequence of playing a game that a lot of people will pick the best way to victory over a challenge.
I personally play the game to face a nice challenge. And I often opt for SC first when playing aliens. "Why? He must be mad!!" I hear you think.
Well here is why: a lot of people complain that NS has become "boring" and the DMS factor is a major player in that league. A standard formula arises every round as to how the players should act and react. First hive is up, aliens cap some RTs until one generous player goes gorge and drops the hive, second hive comes up and then it's on to a full sized offensive.
The moment this offensive comes along the aliens "need" regeneration of sorts. Any minute lost heading back to a hive or finding a fattay is a minute the marines can spend welding up and reinforcing themselves until the next wave hits them.
Many a time the dev team has stated that they are only out there to fix the game, not fix the players.
DMS is a player problem, not a game balance problem. Zunni has stated time and time again that a lot of players agree to things such as unchained servers because they do not think about the entire balance behind it. All they want to see if finally getting rid of the eternal DMS order.
Unchaining the chambers (IMHO) only causes one thing and that is that getting a new hive becomes more bland. At this point in time a new hive means a new ability, faster spawning and a new form of upgrade. Unchaining the servers removes the latter.
Why rush for that second hive? It becomes less and less important without the potential upgrades tied to it.
This in itself poses a whole new problem to the NS community. New players (and less experienced players) will see less need to pop up a second hive and will save for the higher lifeforms a lot quicker as it doesnt matter if the second hive is there or not (or at least matter a lot less). Sure you can get that second skill but you dont need regen if a DC is near, so you pick adrenaline.
Also gorges being able to build all the chambers early on makes it so that 2 gorges working together to put up a WOL can put a very NASTY WOL up early game.
A few OCs, backed up by 1 or 2 DCs, an SC and an MC while a gorge guards that spot (the MC ensuring that he can heal the chambers continually) will be impassable for early marines and thus create a huge shift in balance.
So personally I like the idea of unchaining chambers and it has its pros and cons I will admit but I have to say NAY. I, and many others, are sick to death of the DMS order because we want to be SC skulks at the first hive too from time to time.
But solving this issue through a solution that basically overhauls the entire game balance might not be as easy as everyone seems to think.
I hate to be a naysayer in this because I would LOVE to see any form of DMS breaking, but without major balance overhaul this isnt gonna happen.
Remember that everything said here is IMHO and I am not stating it is or should be so, I am merely saying I feel it should be so.
My 2c
Recently there has been a lot of talk about unchained chambers and as a result many servers run a plugin that allows the unchained chambers to be used.
But why did such a plugin see the light of day?
My personal opinion is that people are sick of the ever returning DMS order.
As an avid Kharaa player myself I notice that this trend can really make the rounds endlessly similar for the Kharaa and makes every round just a copy of the previous one.
The main problem of why this happens is that (and this is logical) people play to win.
As I stated in a newbie guide quite some time back the DMS order is in most circumstances the ideal way to give marines a nice challenge considering the higher lifeforms almost all need some form of regenration (lerks, fades and oni) and that adrenaline is mostly useful for the lerk and fade. They can both constantly spam their skill, retire if hit and heal themselves only to return and do the same in the hopes of breaking that line of defense the marines put up.
It is a natural consequence of playing a game that a lot of people will pick the best way to victory over a challenge.
I personally play the game to face a nice challenge. And I often opt for SC first when playing aliens. "Why? He must be mad!!" I hear you think.
Well here is why: a lot of people complain that NS has become "boring" and the DMS factor is a major player in that league. A standard formula arises every round as to how the players should act and react. First hive is up, aliens cap some RTs until one generous player goes gorge and drops the hive, second hive comes up and then it's on to a full sized offensive.
The moment this offensive comes along the aliens "need" regeneration of sorts. Any minute lost heading back to a hive or finding a fattay is a minute the marines can spend welding up and reinforcing themselves until the next wave hits them.
Many a time the dev team has stated that they are only out there to fix the game, not fix the players.
DMS is a player problem, not a game balance problem. Zunni has stated time and time again that a lot of players agree to things such as unchained servers because they do not think about the entire balance behind it. All they want to see if finally getting rid of the eternal DMS order.
Unchaining the chambers (IMHO) only causes one thing and that is that getting a new hive becomes more bland. At this point in time a new hive means a new ability, faster spawning and a new form of upgrade. Unchaining the servers removes the latter.
Why rush for that second hive? It becomes less and less important without the potential upgrades tied to it.
This in itself poses a whole new problem to the NS community. New players (and less experienced players) will see less need to pop up a second hive and will save for the higher lifeforms a lot quicker as it doesnt matter if the second hive is there or not (or at least matter a lot less). Sure you can get that second skill but you dont need regen if a DC is near, so you pick adrenaline.
Also gorges being able to build all the chambers early on makes it so that 2 gorges working together to put up a WOL can put a very NASTY WOL up early game.
A few OCs, backed up by 1 or 2 DCs, an SC and an MC while a gorge guards that spot (the MC ensuring that he can heal the chambers continually) will be impassable for early marines and thus create a huge shift in balance.
So personally I like the idea of unchaining chambers and it has its pros and cons I will admit but I have to say NAY. I, and many others, are sick to death of the DMS order because we want to be SC skulks at the first hive too from time to time.
But solving this issue through a solution that basically overhauls the entire game balance might not be as easy as everyone seems to think.
I hate to be a naysayer in this because I would LOVE to see any form of DMS breaking, but without major balance overhaul this isnt gonna happen.
Remember that everything said here is IMHO and I am not stating it is or should be so, I am merely saying I feel it should be so.
My 2c
Comments
There is another reason to get 2 hives with unchained. An onos needs regen <i>and</i> celerity to have much of a chance, and that can't happen with one hive with unchained chambers. Fades also get a big boost from having celerity on top of regen or carapace. On top of that, all of the second hive attacks are huge for the aliens to get. An onos without stomp is useless against upgraded marines, and a skulk without leap is target practice for the marines. It should be quite clear even to new players that the second hive is important. The third hive is put up rarely as it is, so that isn't even related to the issue of unchained chambers.
But this would make hive 1 aliens WAY too powerful and dropping 3 chambers of each type (with a good team) shouldn't be too much of a problem.
As for the siege technique, sure, sieging such a spot is an option (especially with the option to recycle). Allthough time consuming and possibly costly. (including the scanning and all that).
Point made and taken <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Unchaining will break that problem cause by the system but will cause a couple of other problems. For one thing, chambers become MUCH more valuable. Perhaps even moreso than hives. This would happen to be because
a) Chambers cost a lot in large games but VERY little in small games due to the current alien res system
b) Chambers have much more lower health
c) Chambers provide upgrades (quite obviously)
The second problem is more of a problem of putting the second hive up. Like i'm lost said, second hives ARE still important because they provide a secondary upgrade to compliment the first upgrade. In the most obvious case, Movement upgrades are to compliment Defense upgrades (DMS is too much of a real winning combination anyway)
This will STILL give incentive aliens to get the 2nd hive. To get the third hive....I'm not even sure people will want to do that. It IS possible with or without unchaining, but the question will be 'Is it worth it?'
The answer would most probably no to most people because you're getting sensory upgrades. From what I've seen on my local servers, nobody ever gets sensory upgrades except some clanners I know, but the problem is they only get SoF.
The secret in unchaining the chambers lies in the fact that it adds MUCH more versatility in alien strategies, like many other say. Marines are able to counter this with this and that with that, so why shouldn't the aliens? I don't see why they have to have a restricted tree based on hives which easily die, while marines have a central base which can be well-guarded, or poorly defended.
And as we all know, it is MUCH more easier to defend the marine base than aliens. Let's take a look why :
- Long-ranged weaponry
- Instant support from the commander (meds and cats)
- Permanent upgrades
- Versatile range of weaponry that can be accessed at <i>any time</i> the commander gives it.
Why I point this out is mainly because of commanders handing out equipment. A good commander will usually equip marines with a diverse set of weaponry (SGs for close range, HMGs for long, GLS for indirect fire)
Yet when we look at aliens, they are ONLY stuck to what they have at the moment. Apart from lifeforms, which are sort of like weapons, aliens do not have as much diversity in terms of upgrades.
While a newbie marine will die easily, they will die LESS often than newbie aliens, because aliens lack the diversity and benefits the marines have.
You can't win with just one hive and 3 of each chamber. Marines get shotguns (for fades) and upgrades (for everything else). If you dont have a second hive... that means they have it... and all the res nodes that go with it. Without the territorial control that comes with the 2nd hive location, you are looking at heavy armor and heavy weapons... and without a built hive you are loking at no bile bomb, leap or stomp. <-- Neccesary upgrades. You still need the hive.
In large games (~9v9+) there is just not enough res for aliens to even think about early WOL. In small games, they're possible, but that's not any more or less of a problem than it already is (assuming the commander knows how to scan or build siege). Also many times when people try to make a WOL with sensory, MC, etc. they find lose the upgrades soon as soon as the wall falls. Its unlikely you'll have 3 upgrade chambers at the hive <i>and more extra chambers</i> for the WOL (If you do, the game is probably already decided since that's over 90 res). If you dont have safe chambers in your hive, building upgrade chambers at a WOL can be very risky for the whole team.
As the WOL's i will say the following:
It usually takes a bit for a commander to decide to take down a WOL with brute force.
In the mean time usually 3 or 4 marines dropped due to carelessness and provided the gorge with needed res to potentially put up a chamber or two of a certain upgrade up at a hive.
Of course the problem of people thinking "Hey we have 3 mcs! Lets not drop any more" is once again a player mentality issue as I always make sure as a gorge that each hive has at least 3 of each chamber (one hive goes down, one doesnt lose the upgrades at least).
As for hives becoming less important I didn't say that putting up a second hive is a waste of 40 res but just makes the impact of that second hive going up less of an actual impact. Each hive should symbolize a boost in a power. By removing one of the added effects (by allowing almost any upgrade and not giving the ability to drop a new type of chamber because its already out there) removes quite a thrill from having a second hive up (or so I felt, anyway).
Although I did not notice the following during the games I played doesn't the potential ammount of chambers at a first hive (SC,MC and DCs) make the first hive a LOT tougher?
Because taking down a hive that is cloaked, has MCs up for gorges to keep healing and DCs to heal at a greater range and keep the hive up in the health department seems a lot harder to me than just a hive with one upgrade.
As I said, that last statement is mostly based on speculation as my experience with unchained chambers is limited.
And I do like the fact that finally these topics can be discussed in a decent manner without fanboys going apepoop over everyone who does not agree with them.
GG! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not necessarily.
The 2nd hive is up mainly for armor absorption and a second upgrade, and that's about it XD
Though I'll admit that I like being handicapped by having chained chambers, it sort of detracts from gameplay with the current res system and general pub player mentality (OMG we ned to win! DMS FTW!)
Prior to second hive, skulks usually have to wait for conflict to come to them, but with the second hive it allows the skulk to go offensive because it can close the gap much more effectively.
Not to mention lerks get umbra, gorges get bile bomb, fades get metabolize and the onos gets stomp.
On the unchained server I played on (Fr31ns) balance wasn't thrown too much out of whack, because if the aliens were spending too much res on chambers, they wouldn't have enough for higher lifeforms against the marine tech.
I think it should be tested, but it probably won't.
I've played at servers with the unchained mod and i <3 it.
But, what I find weird is that the first chamber ALWAYS dropped is SC. Also good point, I am bored of DMS... It's always the same. With unchained it's alot more fun because you can be cloaked with Carapace in the first 5 minutes..
I'm really surprised when the entire alien team agrees on MCs or SCs first. Dropping SC or MC first without discussion isn't a good thing, but when everyone agrees to do it, you know you probably have a pretty decent team going. Marines aren't expecting cloaked units on the first hive. Most good players play with their ears, and silence removes that factor.
Good players will use the default DMS to their advantage. Every few games, someone should suggest "let's go MC first" and everyone should agree. Now we have a bunch of silent or celerity skulks running around, which the marine team doesn't expect. Marines have to adjust their early game strategy.
Unchaining the chambers removes this surprise factor. Now anyone can at any point have any single upgrade. A cloaked skulk can appear at any point in the game. Marines run around expecting a silent skulk to fall on them from anywhere.
It's hard to explain my problems with unchained chambers... It makes NS a completely difference experience...
Yes, if the alien team agrees to go MC or SC, it can be a very enjoyable experience. But the vast majority of the time non-DC games are initiated when some **** drops an SC in a hideously obvious location, at which point half the team F4s and the rest lack the skill/experience to force their unasked-for advantage.
Contrast this with unchained, where (in my experience) the first chambers dropped are 1-2 SC and 3 DC. Suprise, suprise. MCs never really get dropped until about the time of the second hive, when their teleporting ability and additional upgrade begin to outweigh the need for heavy lifeforms/RTs.
All unchaining really does is allow lifeforms that greatly benefit from cloaking and SC upgrades to do so without throwing the game for the rest of the team. I can guarantee you it is more balanced than some of you are making out - them chambers ain't cheap, after all. All it does is give the alien team more options, and give the rines a harder choice - suddenly MT starts to look very, very attractive in every game - but can you spare the res? End result? More strategy, not less.
I mean, i LOVE friendly fire now, but back in the day, i couldn't stand it. It's all just a preference. Let servers decide how they want NS played.
I will say that, despite the creator of this topic says, the 2nd hive is THE MOST important hive. Leap, Bile bomb, umbra, metabolize, and stomp. Those are THE MOST importand and useful abilities in the game. Dropping hive 2 is never just to get another chamber. You can live without hive2 chambers, you can't live very long without hive2 abilities.
Hive 3 is important, but in no way near hive2. Xenocide drops heavies, webs drop jetpacks, primal scream is nifty, but not used enough (and should have a longer duration and nrg cost), acid rocket is kinda useless at the moment, and whatever the hell the last onos ability is(i don't onos much) is so useless. I remember in 2.0 the damage was "incredible" (or something like that). And even then it sucked.
I'll retract my previous statement that unchained chambers don't have as much strategy... It's a DIFFERENT strategy.
Well, we could go back to 1.0x style, where fades were locked to hive 2 and onos to hive 3. That would make the hives essential.
In case it wasn't obvious, that was a joke. My point is that making the hives a little less important isn't necessarily a bad thing, and in this case it wouldn't be. The second hive is still essential, and the third hive doesn't lose much of the importance that it currently has.
what EXACTLY does unchained mean?
a) all upgrades are allways avaliable?
b) one upgrade per hive is availiable?
c) all upgrades at one lvl per hive are availiable?
d) this question is dumb <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
only one chamber upgrade can be selected per hive. ie: cant have regen and focus with just 1 hive, need 2.
yeah thats about it.
what EXACTLY does unchained mean?
a) all upgrades are allways avaliable?
b) one upgrade per hive is availiable?
c) all upgrades at one lvl per hive are availiable?
d) this question is dumb <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) You can choose any upgrade, provided the chamber(s) supporting the ability exist. All of the chambers can be built at any time during the game.
b) Yes, as stated before.
c) No; provided three of the upgrade chambers of your choice exist, you can choose a lvl 3 ability at any time. Number of hives only impacts how many upgrades you can purchase at one time (e.g., two hives will allow you to take both Celerity and Carapace, and provided that three MCs and DCs exist, they will be at lvl 3).
d) <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
See my sig. Cheating-Death (cheating-death.com) is required.
and YES for ANTI-DMS