Game Lacks Essential Rts Aspect
Funkatron
Join Date: 2004-08-12 Member: 30551Members
Join Date: 2004-08-12 Member: 30551Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Expanding</div> I'm a huge RTS fan and since NS is suppose be a hybrid of a FPS and RTS game, I can't help notice one big problem with it. It's simply that a good RTS player will realize the importance of expanding to other parts of the map. An inexperienced player, however, will turtle in their base and hope they can get by with the resources provided at their initial starting location.
Aliens of course have this implemented into their style of playing. In order to get more advanced abilities they require the production of more hives. In which case, this is the way you get to higher tiers in NS as an alien. 1 hive = tier 1; 2 hive = tier 2; 3 hive = tier 3. This is good and I like it very much
However, marines are quite a different story. They have everything they need to get to advanced tiers just by turtling in their base. Not only that, marines are able to get by with far fewer res nodes that aliens. Also commander provides them with better organization.
I remember joining a pub game late into it. Marines had two hives locked down with one hvie as their base; and they had 2 res nodes. Aliens had everything else and were able to go onos quite frequently. The hives were both completely swamped with turrets though and turret factories. All of us having lmgs. Basically, even when aliens stormed in with 8 onos, they were helpless. Because of their large size and trouble getting around all the turrets they couldn't do anything. After a long and bitter stalemate, the commander dropped shotguns and heavies. We rushed their last hive and won.
If the roles were reversed; aliens would never had a chance.
Also, considering the aspect that marines have a commander to order them around; it makes them even more powerful. When an alien hive is under attack, especially when it is still being "built." There is no head alien to notify the aliens of the threat and no one to rally up a good plan. No to tell them from which direction the threat is comin from either.
On a final note... some simple facts relating to many things: military, corporations, etc.
1. Best Situation = Wide Diversity with Strong Leadership.
2. Good Situation = Low Diversity with Strong Leadership.
3. Poor Situation = Low Diversity with No Leadership.
4. Worst Situation = Wide Diversity with No Leadership.
As you can see, marines fall into the top two categories while aliens always fall into the bottom 2 categories.
Marines [2] - Start of game - Have a commander (strong leadership). All equiped with same weapons (low diversity)
Marines [1] - Later in game - Have a commander (strong leadership). Now however, marines can be equipped with different weapons (hmgs, sgs, gls) and different armor (level 3, HA, JPs); (Wide Diversity)
Aliens [3] - Start of game - All skulks and no leader.
Aliens [4] - Late in game - Different types of aliens and no leader.
So basically, I feel that aliens must work much harder to win in a game, especially when it has high amounts of players. 1) They are required to expand. 2) They're game doesn't necessarily become easier with higher tiers/more resources because with more diversity with no leadership causes problems in itself. 3) And, aliens depend on RTs more and really depend on hives... communicating/organizing your team which RT/hive to prioritize without a leader makes things chaotic.
Thanks.
Aliens of course have this implemented into their style of playing. In order to get more advanced abilities they require the production of more hives. In which case, this is the way you get to higher tiers in NS as an alien. 1 hive = tier 1; 2 hive = tier 2; 3 hive = tier 3. This is good and I like it very much
However, marines are quite a different story. They have everything they need to get to advanced tiers just by turtling in their base. Not only that, marines are able to get by with far fewer res nodes that aliens. Also commander provides them with better organization.
I remember joining a pub game late into it. Marines had two hives locked down with one hvie as their base; and they had 2 res nodes. Aliens had everything else and were able to go onos quite frequently. The hives were both completely swamped with turrets though and turret factories. All of us having lmgs. Basically, even when aliens stormed in with 8 onos, they were helpless. Because of their large size and trouble getting around all the turrets they couldn't do anything. After a long and bitter stalemate, the commander dropped shotguns and heavies. We rushed their last hive and won.
If the roles were reversed; aliens would never had a chance.
Also, considering the aspect that marines have a commander to order them around; it makes them even more powerful. When an alien hive is under attack, especially when it is still being "built." There is no head alien to notify the aliens of the threat and no one to rally up a good plan. No to tell them from which direction the threat is comin from either.
On a final note... some simple facts relating to many things: military, corporations, etc.
1. Best Situation = Wide Diversity with Strong Leadership.
2. Good Situation = Low Diversity with Strong Leadership.
3. Poor Situation = Low Diversity with No Leadership.
4. Worst Situation = Wide Diversity with No Leadership.
As you can see, marines fall into the top two categories while aliens always fall into the bottom 2 categories.
Marines [2] - Start of game - Have a commander (strong leadership). All equiped with same weapons (low diversity)
Marines [1] - Later in game - Have a commander (strong leadership). Now however, marines can be equipped with different weapons (hmgs, sgs, gls) and different armor (level 3, HA, JPs); (Wide Diversity)
Aliens [3] - Start of game - All skulks and no leader.
Aliens [4] - Late in game - Different types of aliens and no leader.
So basically, I feel that aliens must work much harder to win in a game, especially when it has high amounts of players. 1) They are required to expand. 2) They're game doesn't necessarily become easier with higher tiers/more resources because with more diversity with no leadership causes problems in itself. 3) And, aliens depend on RTs more and really depend on hives... communicating/organizing your team which RT/hive to prioritize without a leader makes things chaotic.
Thanks.
Comments
Yeah this is mainly a problem with turrets.... and it's definately the worst problem with pubbing NS.
Can't help but to agree.
In Large public servers the most commonly played maps simply become too small (which is why agora is technically an awesome pubmap) - and the amount of RTs aliens need to cap hence encompasses too large a territory. This is assuming something crazy like 12v12 though - in most cases, the reason for horrible alien defeat is lack of a basic understanding of alien objectives (RTs immediately, at least one person saving for chambers and one for a Hive, as well as two Fades). Most people end up playing as permgorge that'll drop his first node 3 minutes into the game, drop a few OCs left and right and maybe **** at the people going Fade - if you're lucky, he'll even complain about the marines overrunning the 2nd hivelocation.
Recommend non-US servers for this reason.
I very much want to see more RTS aspects in the game. Including a larger tech tree for both, longer games with a better chance of comebacks/powershift, and the necessary balance adjustments that will need to be made.
actually some of the best servers are us, and i find myself often playing there because i either got fed up with my fellow euros or couldnt get a slot in the server where i see my e-friends playing.
its not that bad to play across the atlantic, i ping 150-200 and usually have no trouble hitting stuff. + in europe youre lucky if 1 person on the server uses voicecomm. =/
e: sorry for off-topic.
For aliens it's something like node->lerk/gorge/dcs/fade/fade/hive and marines it's cap/kill res until a hive or fade goes up and then switch to working on a hive.
Even small deviations like node->fade instead of straight fade are seen as radical changes because there's such a lack of diversity. How can this game be a RTS/fps if there's only 1 viable strategy and the tech tree goes in a straight line? I'm sure starcraft didn't have 1 viable strategy, I'm sure warcraft 3 doesn't have 1 viable strategy.
Summary: more clanwar viable strategies plz~
Two, I know I only play pubs. And I don't know how much of experience can back this stuff up. I'm sure clan play is definately way more organized, especially for aliens. But I don't feel it's fair to make a game only fun and balanced for clan play. I mean I would like to play in a clan and see the true potential of us this game and all. However, I merely don't have the time to dedicate to such a thing. I'm a full-time undergrad, it's my junior year. Classes are getting pretty difficult now. I also work in a lab 3 to 4 times a week. Graduate students depend on my help and my boss wants me to publish my own research. Plus a girlfriend and social life take up time. I basically play NS if I have some spare time, which is sporadic at best. And I'm sure many other people who play this game have a similar story.
Three, whenever I do play I do far better on the marines team. I usually have a score that's in the top 3 when the game is over. And that's even in situation when clans stack the other team. And I definately understand how to be an effective marine. And I feel I mostly became a good marine player because of
1) I played way too much cs in my past. So I know how to aim well.
2) I've played way too much sc/wc2/wc3 to understand the importance of scouting, teamplay, etc.
3) Most importantly. I listen to the commander and the marines who listen to him as well. This helped a lot in understanding what is important to do as a marine in NS.
However, as an alien it's quite different. Playing as a lerk, fade, and onos is difficult to master. It's also hard to get the chance to get any practice as one. Clearly, if your new, your best off spending your res on RTs, chambers, and hives. Thus leaving your hopefully more experienced teammates to do the fast-fade etc strategies. You don't want to **** 50 res, go fade, and die because of inexperience. Especially now, as games seem to be getting shorter and shorter with each new version. The importance of the fade/onos is going up. If you **** and die as one too fast, your whole team gets upset. As they should be, because now their chance of losing has gone up heavily.
So yeah, in essence my original post is thread is most likely to be talkin about pub games. But I still think this game should be more pub-friendly. Although, I think most people agree that marines are still better than aliens in clan games as well. When I read this forum, it seems many people believe this as well. I can only judge by what others have written for I've never played in a clan game. Thanks.
Totally agree. The ability to show all aliens on your team where the enemies are without parasiting was priceless. Although it was slightly overpowered when it had a spherical AOE, meaning you could run past a doorway and never look at the marine and your mate behind a wall would still see that there is a marine there. Making it limited to LOS would be great.
actually some of the best servers are us, and i find myself often playing there because i either got fed up with my fellow euros or couldnt get a slot in the server where i see my e-friends playing.
its not that bad to play across the atlantic, i ping 150-200 and usually have no trouble hitting stuff. + in europe youre lucky if 1 person on the server uses voicecomm. =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry I should have rephrased that:
Recommend WON non-US servers, but obviously WON is dead.
Totally agree. The ability to show all aliens on your team where the enemies are without parasiting was priceless. Although it was slightly overpowered when it had a spherical AOE, meaning you could run past a doorway and never look at the marine and your mate behind a wall would still see that there is a marine there. Making it limited to LOS would be great. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't just that though. You can't even tell WHICH resource tower is under attack now unless you're close enough to hear it anyway. Where your teammates are--who knows.
(This is especially obvious in NS maps--CO maps are far smaller.)
Yes. Please restore hive sight.
4. Worst Situation = Wide Diversity with No Leadership.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have those mixed up.
The Intel corporation is a great example of this.
BILE BOMB. Cover behind commrades, got alot of res? PERFECT. OCwalls, I did not read they had sieges.
Solves more issues than you may think.
Nevertheless, I would wish turrets would stay like that and not turn like the ones in TFC -useless pieces of crap.
IMO, it works pretty well now if you exclude how nerfed aliens are and how weak aliens are at one hive -even if they controlled everything else but the hives. I think this is because their armor "level" is tied to the amount of hives, so making it dependant of, say; RTs or time might be the solution here.
As to the lack of focus, that could be fixed by making the warnings more intuitive. Marines spotted at a hive and it is taking damage? Easy: turn view to pinkish, turn the volume to max, and yell: "SAVE THE GODDAMN HIVE!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
co_ 85% res from kills
ns_ 100% res from RT if you are marine, about 50/50 if you are aliens and not gorge (gorges get 100% res from RTs as well)
I'm not to sure about those numbers but it does make sense that marines shouldn't get res from kills in ns_ maps. It will end the era of being able to camp in the base until you tech up enough to pwn the aliens. Aliens of course eat the marines so they always get some res from kills which is an incentive to move out and hunt the marines.
This also solves the "lacks essential RTS aspect" that is becomming a little to true.
NS = 50/50 FPS:RTS
NS != Team Deathmatch, just with aliens and marines and different weapons
PS: a bigger tech tree wouldn't hurt either
Leap makes skulks capable of killing anything.
Metabolise makes the fade twice as effective. (Well for me yeah)
Umbra helps the team more than anything.
Stomp makes the onos actually worth something.
Bile bomb is THE strongest base killer. (Especially with new mc range)
And i just get so angry hearing people even THINKING of upgrading the aliens cause
1. Right now marines SUCKS, your usually dopeweak and never have a good commander enough to get heavier stuff, and whoo its so fun to get owned by onos TIME UPON TIME UPON TIME UPON TIME!
2. Aliens are 3x faster, 5x stronger, and can walk on walls etc etc, and walking in a group doesent really save you from anything, one skul is enough to send a whole squad running, cause he runs around in a mad frenzy and we with our megaweak LMGs have increadible fun trying to kill him by making 1 dmg to him and he makes 40 to us per bite. woohoo.
Err.. well, that was about what i wanted to say, but seriously, how fun is it to be rine when they A) Upgrade SOO much faster. B) Do SOO much more damage, C) Are SOO much faster..
And about speed, really, when u cant even outrun a onos in normal armor and with LMG, like WTH..
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And where the heck are you people playing if marines win?? Happens like 1 time on a thousand public.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) how long have you been playing this game?
2) how many bullets does it usually take you to kill a skulk at the start of the game (first 3 minutes)
3) how many servers have you played on? also, is the map name beginning with ns_ or co_ ? you mentioned the commander so i'll take you've played the ns (classic) game mode.
4) what is your usual server like? how many players for example? i cant be bothered to ask the server name since theres only about 2-3 US servers that i frequent. and only about 2-3 euro servers as well. but the general player skill level can vary quite much between servers.
Ranger marines vs. melee aliens, that was the goal.
oooooohhhhhhhh pick meeeeeee i know the answer to #2!!
(keep in mind these are pub-player skulks)
I for one, also prefer a jetpack over a heavy any day. The jetpack honestly outmanuevers any alien right now. Throw in a shotgun and onos are just basically free kills with a JP.
Unless your good at bunny-hopping or use a script. Skulks either need to attack in groups or ambush. however, motion tracking immediately makes ambushing pretty useless. I for one feel motion-tracking is a bit too powerful. Don't want it removed or anything; just how I feel.
All in all, marines are more powerful early in game I think.
aliens need alot more teamwork to win, they gotta get things sorted right from the beggining, about whos doing what and were if they wanna win. on the other hand, rines are basicly led by the nose, its mostly down to the skill of the com.