Impact Of Knockback Reduction In Recent Beta?
Fantasmo
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Vets Argued Removal = Marines Owned</div> I recall many hard lines drawn on the Knockback (KB) Issue whenever an occational thread or suggestion was made that KB should be removed.
Many supported the idea of total KB removal but the vets argued that total removal will equal marines get owned. This was supported by a Beta release that was experimented with for only about a couple months.* A compromise was obviously struck on the latest beta, which is nice to see, and a reduction of KB was implimented.
*<i>Occured in a 2.0x Public Beta I think</i>
Since there was a significant reduction KB in the latest version has it affected marine survivabiliy at all?
The last time I checked (servers that display stats) the Marine/Alien wins in Classic were still around 50/50 (Pubs)... although the JPs in the latest Beta seemed to be bring back some 1.04-action which may swing things toward Marines.
The fact that there is a known Hitbox Issue which give the aliens <i>a little edge</i> combined with the latest reduction of KB you would think things should swing a little towards aliens wins... but that hasn't really happened from the posts I've read.
Has the reduction of KB affected marine survivability like the Vets claim or is it negligible so far?
Many supported the idea of total KB removal but the vets argued that total removal will equal marines get owned. This was supported by a Beta release that was experimented with for only about a couple months.* A compromise was obviously struck on the latest beta, which is nice to see, and a reduction of KB was implimented.
*<i>Occured in a 2.0x Public Beta I think</i>
Since there was a significant reduction KB in the latest version has it affected marine survivabiliy at all?
The last time I checked (servers that display stats) the Marine/Alien wins in Classic were still around 50/50 (Pubs)... although the JPs in the latest Beta seemed to be bring back some 1.04-action which may swing things toward Marines.
The fact that there is a known Hitbox Issue which give the aliens <i>a little edge</i> combined with the latest reduction of KB you would think things should swing a little towards aliens wins... but that hasn't really happened from the posts I've read.
Has the reduction of KB affected marine survivability like the Vets claim or is it negligible so far?
Comments
vv i didn't evade anything so it isn't my fault the board didn't sensor it?
<span style='color:orange'>No, it's <i>our</i> fault for not putting that word in the swearfilter. But it's still <i>your</i> fault for using such language to begin with.</span>
If I were to predict anything, I would say that it PROBABLY would allow alien rushes to a bit tighter and more decisive at endgame.
Second, consider marines had a few boosts (dropping carried ammo for one) and the win rate is still about 50/50 then I consider that a result........ 50/50 is goooood..
now THAT would be fun!
now THAT would be fun! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And make onos even weaker then the hideously huge meatshields that they already are? No thanks.
vv i didn't evade anything so it isn't my fault the board didn't sensor it?
<span style='color:orange'>No, it's <i>our</i> fault for not putting that word in the swearfilter. But it's still <i>your</i> fault for using such language to begin with.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because saying an adult thing in a game rated mature is evil, hahahaha.
If I were to predict anything, I would say that it PROBABLY would allow alien rushes to a bit tighter and more decisive at endgame.
Second, consider marines had a few boosts (dropping carried ammo for one) and the win rate is still about 50/50 then I consider that a result........ 50/50 is goooood.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trying to see things from both sides I think your prediction may be a problem... (EDiT: Clarify, I don't mean your prediction was wrong, just that your prediction may lead to problems with removing KB entirely... which is a valid observation)
An early mass skulk rush on an unprepared, fragmented team (like everyone runs off and leaves 2 guys to build and defend the initial buildings) and it could mean an early victory... but this could happen with KB so maybe it is irrelevent.
However this may slow marines expansion just a bit by forcing more of the team to defend the base in the beginning. It may also reduce the success rate of sending solo marines in every direction to cap nodes and quickly... two-three man teams may be a necessity instead. Remember there is a resource model imbalance leaning toward the marines so if they were slowed down a bit in the beginning it wouldn't be fatal I think.
I think 50/50 is good too... but one thing the statistics don't tell you was how the game was won. What if a majority of the 50% alien wins were initial skulk rushes or due to a fatally bad/n00b COMM? What if a majority of the 50% marine wins were JP rushes or opening game hive rushes?
The problem with statistics is it doesn't tell you hard-fought, even battles or one-sided messes...
I think the 50/50 can be misleading, because if the win ratio dictated the balance then NS was balanced since about v2. The win ratio has never favored anyone drastically since the JP Tech Rush of v1.04. The ratios have swung at most around 60/40 for marines but on most version I see the stats at around 50/50 or 55/45. People scream the aliens have been nerfed in every new version but I've seen 60/40 for aliens too.
I don't think the win ratio can tell all... an indication of that is it just doesn't match the level of "satifaction" regarding balance on these forums expressed by both pubbers and clanner...
vv i didn't evade anything so it isn't my fault the board didn't sensor it?
<span style='color:orange'>No, it's <i>our</i> fault for not putting that word in the swearfilter. But it's still <i>your</i> fault for using such language to begin with.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because saying an adult thing in a game rated mature is evil, hahahaha. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS isnt rated mature though. the thing that entirely blows my mind though is in games that allow voice comm, and censor out typed swearing. for instance, SOCOM on playstation. you cant even say KFC because they are afraid of racial comments. seriously. but of course you can yell profanities into your mic.
There has been none... (EDiT: Since the new version) and that is exactly my point...
Some claimed (mostly vets) any reduction of KB and especially the removal of KB would mean marines get totally owned. Since KB was reduced on this version I wondered if their dire predictions were correct. And if they weren't right about the results of reducing KB are we so sure their assertion that removing KB would swing things totally to the alien side.
Search up some KB Threads Squishy you'll find them, this issue was a rager in the past. I believe there is a big poll on KB removal too, probably the one that concinced the devs to reduce KB in the first place. There was quite a bit of support of removing KB in general.
The common counter was that it was tried on a 2.0x beta version... what many don't include was it was tried for only a few months if that.
There has been none... (EDiT: Since the new version) and that is exactly my point...
Some claimed (mostly vets) any reduction of KB and especially the removal of KB would mean marines get totally owned. Since KB was reduced on this version I wondered if their dire predictions were correct. And if they weren't right about the results of reducing KB are we so sure their assertion that removing KB would swing things totally to the alien side.
Search up some KB Threads Squishy you'll find them, this issue was a rager in the past. I believe there is a big poll on KB removal too, probably the one that concinced the devs to reduce KB in the first place. There was quite a bit of support of removing KB in general.
The common counter was that it was tried on a 2.0x beta version... what many don't include was it was tried for only a few months if that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but your thread was killed in the first reply
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They didnt remove knockback totally, just halved the big fly across cargo style knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They didnt remove knockback totally, just halved the big fly across cargo style knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only that but I can't really tell how much the kb removal with the horrible hit registration problems I've been having in b5 recently, although I would say it has been a nerf overall for marines.
And fades can do aireal juggles on marines now, so it's not like it's all bad, this new type of "juggle" knockback can leave the marines completely helpless to bigger creatures like fades and onos.
And fades can do aireal juggles on marines now, so it's not like it's all bad, this new type of "juggle" knockback can leave the marines completely helpless to bigger creatures like fades and onos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too bad about the hit registration problems... I guess it's really hard to assess the impact of KB reduction with that problem around...
Even the KB in prior version was never a huge problem with bigger evos like Fades (*Marine KB* Blink and Swipe *Dead Marine*) and Onos (Except for those Onos gore KBs that sends a marine flying out of your range). I believe most anti-KBer agreed that bigger evos <i>should</i> have some degree of KB but skulks should not cause KB.
I'm interested to know how no KB would affect skulk vs marine battles and what affect it will have on NS.
KB proponents predicted total alien domination... I'm not so sure.
same can go for marines, i just got out of a game where i juggled an onos with my knife till a fade came at me. i think i came pretty close to killing the onos since once it got off me it ran away. i was just a LA with LMG also.
Removing KB entirely would be a tad unrealistic, and would only encourage button mashing rushes from poor players.
On the 50/50 front, I am of course assuming a DECENT game.
Goring something with a big horn, yeah, I can see that. But when something is bitten its pulled, not pushed.
Knife 'knockback' is ludicrous right now, also.
As a skulk I'm too used to being able to hit a marine at full speed and having him move in the same direction as I'm going to land the 2nd/3rd bite. Now I hit him at full speed and by the time the 2nd bite comes I'm 5 feet past him. I also can't bite marines sending them flying into the ooze at powersilo or off a high ledge.
The new knockback also makes it uber easy as a lerk because you bite so fast you can pin a marine in one spot and he won't be able to move.
All in all I'd like to see it being a little higher then it is now but maybe not as high as it was in 4(a).
The new knife knockback is funny. You can push skulks outside of their bite range with it, and of course, Onos Tossing. I should also point out that the new "juggle" melee physics makes it like a first person Capcom fighter. I feel like shouting 4 HIT COMBO every time I bite some lvl2 light armor guy to death. I'm still not sure how to get the juggle to work. Do you have to knife or bite upwards, and hit anywhere, or do you actually have to be able to hit them on their underside or feet?
I'd like a location-specific knockback for marines. Bite them in the leg and they use their other leg to jump backwards or push away like a stuntman for the massive Beta4-style knockback. Bite them in the arms or chest and they get B5 weak knockback, bite them in the upper body or head and they have no knockback at all. Of course, I'd also be enthusiastic if they included orientation-specific damage, such as +25~50% dmg for a melee attack from behind, but that's just because I like CS and TFC style throat slitting.
Wowow stop right there; who said this? Several vets don't constitute all vets. Its no secret skulks get raped early game, they needed a boost like this.
----------------------------
I also had hit registration problems, but then I learned to aim
god just stop making these arguments. if you dont realise that shots that appear to hit the alien can in reality "miss" and not register damage then good for you, obviously youre one of the lucky ones who dont have that problem.
I also had hit registration problems, but then I learned to aim
god just stop making these arguments. if you dont realise that shots that appear to hit the alien can in reality "miss" and not register damage then good for you, obviously youre one of the lucky ones who dont have that problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I hate when ppl are unware that the games has hitbox regestering flaws.
I seriously know ppl that say have no bugs at all, like never ever happened. I'm not of the lucky ones either.
You can still get a large knockback though if you do a bhop jump to the side or back as marine, though to do this you lose your aim on the skulk.
I guess the implementation of reduced knockback has 2 effects. In pub it has influenced the balance causing a 50/50 win ratio, unfortunately what works for one doesn't work for the other casuing 80/20 win ratio in favour of aliens for pracs.