Would An Off-balance Start Be More Balanced?
Fantasmo
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Aliens get a slight advantage from start</div> Achieving perfect balance is difficult for any game. Structure of NS (FPS/RTS) and the different weapons and abilities of both teams make NS much more difficult to achieve balance in the FPS or the RTS... and when you are kinda both at the same time it is that much more of an ordeal.
I was on the can (where I do my best thinking) and it struck me that maybe instead striving for total perfect team balance NS might try balancing with a slight tilt toward the alien team in the start. That's right, start the game slighty imbalanced toward aliens.
We know there are resource model balance problems in NS, the most significant problem being that the alien res flow is slower then marines. What if the aliens were given a slight advantage in the beginning, and when I say slight I mean not enough for them to formulate an effective "rush tactic" but enough for them to establish themselves on the map a little.
Storywise I don't see a problem.
The resource imbalance can be explained. The Aliens have slower res flow because they have to convert a human energy source to something they can use. The marines have no problem tapping and using the energy source.
The slight advantage given to aliens in the beginning can be explained by the fact that they took over the ship/base and the marines have come to eradicate them. It makes sense to me that the alien infestation would be be more "established" by the time the marines arrive to deal with it.
This doesn't solve all the problems but I thought it might be an interesting idea to leave the resource model as it is but give the marines a slightly more infested problem to deal with.
So an Off-Balance start to achieve a more Balanced middle/end game. It's kind of a bandaid fix, but I think starting the aliens off slightly imbalanced towards them but keeping the resource model slightly imbalanced towards the marines might come together to achieve a balance in the middle/late game...
I was just thinking of a way where the devs can tweak the overall structure of NS but keep as much as possible from the present structure as to reduce the amount of coding, changes, and re-balancing they would have to make for more radical solutions.
Just a few thoughts, feel free to share your own.
I was on the can (where I do my best thinking) and it struck me that maybe instead striving for total perfect team balance NS might try balancing with a slight tilt toward the alien team in the start. That's right, start the game slighty imbalanced toward aliens.
We know there are resource model balance problems in NS, the most significant problem being that the alien res flow is slower then marines. What if the aliens were given a slight advantage in the beginning, and when I say slight I mean not enough for them to formulate an effective "rush tactic" but enough for them to establish themselves on the map a little.
Storywise I don't see a problem.
The resource imbalance can be explained. The Aliens have slower res flow because they have to convert a human energy source to something they can use. The marines have no problem tapping and using the energy source.
The slight advantage given to aliens in the beginning can be explained by the fact that they took over the ship/base and the marines have come to eradicate them. It makes sense to me that the alien infestation would be be more "established" by the time the marines arrive to deal with it.
This doesn't solve all the problems but I thought it might be an interesting idea to leave the resource model as it is but give the marines a slightly more infested problem to deal with.
So an Off-Balance start to achieve a more Balanced middle/end game. It's kind of a bandaid fix, but I think starting the aliens off slightly imbalanced towards them but keeping the resource model slightly imbalanced towards the marines might come together to achieve a balance in the middle/late game...
I was just thinking of a way where the devs can tweak the overall structure of NS but keep as much as possible from the present structure as to reduce the amount of coding, changes, and re-balancing they would have to make for more radical solutions.
Just a few thoughts, feel free to share your own.
Comments
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Maybe I've been away for a while but could you elaborate on this? By alien tech I assume you mean get upgrade chambers, abilities, and bigger evos.
I thought the main resource problem was that the marines gain resources quicker, easier, and with less nodes. Hence the JP Tech Rush problem.
If aliens could tech faster then marines why couldn't aliens evolve enough Fades to counter JP and protect their nodes? Better yet why don't the aliens out tech the JP Tech Rush and push fades and lerks at marine base and kill their protolab or advanced armoury before they get JPs?
I thought the problem was that marines can tech faster to useful gear then aliens can tech to counter them effectively...
Wuzzah?
Maybe I've been away for a while but could you elaborate on this? By alien tech I assume you mean get upgrade chambers, abilities, and bigger evos.
I thought the main resource problem was that the marines gain resources quicker, easier, and with less nodes. Hence the JP Tech Rush problem.
If aliens could tech faster then marines why couldn't aliens evolve enough Fades to counter JP and protect their nodes? Better yet why don't the aliens out tech the JP Tech Rush and push fades and lerks at marine base and kill their protolab or advanced armoury before they get JPs?
I thought the problem was that marines can tech faster to useful gear then aliens can tech to counter them effectively...
Wuzzah? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the reason you see marines tech faster is because they own aliens hard in the early game and kill their nodes.
Unless you have pretty crappy fades on your team, it usually takes atleast armor1/weapon1 + a small squad of shotties to try and take down the fade. Even then it might not be enough if the fade is smart and skilled.
Buffing early game aliens will only decrease the time aliens get the 2nd generation lifeforms, fades and lerks, who will totally own the marines
The problem you're seeing now is aliens not being able to get fades, lerks, 2nd hive before marines get Jetpacks, if that is the case then the blame totally falls on lack of skill on the alien team. Fades and 2nd hive should come in no longer than 5minutes, 6 at most. Anything after 6 minutes then you will lose the game unless the marines have a retarded commander who dropped turrets at base.
because that would effectively remove the alien's reliance on resource nodes - 2.0 was taking the fight back to the resource nodes, 1.04 was a fight for the hives, which worked better? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i don't agree with the original post. the reason being, i don't think the aliens as they are right now are even equal to the marines at start, so trying to balance it to the other extreme would have a lot more effect than you think. this is kind of hard to put into words. we need to get rid of the current imbalance before considering creating another imbalance. else we could easily end up in the same situation we are in now, only reversed...
there are entirely too many threads and ideas on how to make the aliens better earlygame... unfortunately we aren't going to get a new patch every week so to test even the 5 best ideas would take months... i don't know a solution, and that isn't the topic of this thread either way.
So... unless what you think would be an off-balance start in favor of the kharaa is the same as what i think an equal start for both sides is... i'd say no to giving them a clear advantage. also as someone else mentioned, boosting the early game without nerfing the fade would just mean fades showing up faster and having a lot of work already done for them. an off balance start would have an exponential effect, lets stick with small changes.
because that would effectively remove the alien's reliance on resource nodes - 2.0 was taking the fight back to the resource nodes, 1.04 was a fight for the hives, which worked better? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps the fade nerf could simply be yet another cost increase.
Is there anything saying fade and Onos can't cost the same?
Right now the game is very well balanced in my opinion, I see way more alein wins than marine wins. In clan play right now. The thing is, the key to Alein Win is Team Work, and team responsiveness.
For marines its skill. Most marines already have a good shooting skill. that is why there is an off set.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->gecko... one of the big points about each team was that marines had to use teamwork while the aliens relied more on individual skill, NOT the other way around! that right there means something is wrong with the game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually right now I think individual alien skill is emphasized. Not on the fact that if each alien rambos alone, then they would win, that never happens in any team type game. However, the alien team relies on a good fade to win the game, if the fade's individual skill is not up to par, he WILL die and the 50 res will go down the drain, perhaps costing the team the game. Same thing as a lerk, if a lerk dies, the team support is severely hampered especially if marines have pretty good upgrades. AlienA's individual skill might be more focused on fade than lerk, so he'd choose to go fade for the team while AlienB's individual skill might be more focused on skulking, so he'll probably just drop hives/dcs.
For marines, it does require teamwork and squad movement. You see ramboing marines rape on pubs because it's on a pub. If a marine with pretty good aim plays on pubs, usually that means the skills of the aliens aren't up to par so they're getting a beatdown. It usually takes a squad to take down a fade and an onos, there-in lies the teamwork attribute. It definately takes a squad to kill a hive, one lone marine can't kill a hive by himself. The commander position is also a key position, the team relies heavily on the commander to keep them alive and keep them advanced, without this teamwork link, the marines will definately fail.
i just wasnt sure what gecko meant when he said
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing is, the key to Alein Win is Team Work, and team responsiveness. For marines its skill.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i was disagreeing with that statement in my post
i did NOT mean that for aliens to focus more on individual skill was wrong... i'll stop talking now before i confuse this anymore...
Gorge costs to 0-5 (2 prefered), starting res changed to 20, lerk lowered to 25 res to compensate for the lower starting res, and skulk speed buffed.
Should fix early fade, alien early game weakness, and the inability for early game aliens to rebuild