Combat Hypothetical Scenario
Sarisel
.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">lvl10 situation</div> In NS: Combat:
8 of lvl10 focus fades
face off against
8 of any type tech lvl10 marines
around hive area
Who will win? (Assume that fades know how to blink/slash/blink reasonably well.)
I'll post my solution in a few days, but I'd like to hear others first.
8 of lvl10 focus fades
face off against
8 of any type tech lvl10 marines
around hive area
Who will win? (Assume that fades know how to blink/slash/blink reasonably well.)
I'll post my solution in a few days, but I'd like to hear others first.
Comments
If the marines know what they're doing and have some good lvl 3 shotgunner/hmgers in the group, they should be able to take some of the Fades down. However, given the tendancy of people to empty clips quickly at available targets, it's likely that right when the marines have to start reloading the final few Fades will be amongst them and cause havok.
The only real chance marines have in combat is to either rush hard in the first few minutes and spawn camp or save for jp shotgun and do a sudden hard rush for the hive.
If they're Super Fades, all with 25:2 ratios, the marines are quite likely toast, and won't get near the hive.
An alien team of 8 lvl 10s would probably hold at least one gorge with webs and a lerk with umbra. During these conditions marines wont stand a chance.
If they only have 8 fades though, the marines should be able to quickly finish it with a jp/sg rush (actually, it'd be a race, fades to comm chair or jps to hive).
The ability to mix chamber types, like celerity and adrenaline, or carapace and regeneration as well as access to webs should make aliens unstoppable if they are all at tenth level, regardless of the marine set-up.
Plus webs are vital, not to mention the oft-neglected lerk.
Fades are generally more useful than onos, however...
Also, with aimbot accuracy and focus fire, obviously a group of 8 HMG marines will (even with LA) destroy the 8 fades. HA would simply guarantee that not one marine dies. Let's focus on a reasonable skill level and organization of marines. Same with the fades, don't assume they will all be in the same room at the same time.
As for the map, think of combinations of 2 large rooms and several smaller rooms and corridors (like ulysses).
In this scenario, xenocide/web/primal scream obviously gets left out because they tip the game's balance in any situation overwhelmingly for the aliens. Even umbra is left out.
Here's some stats:
5 focus hits kill a HA, 2 any other marine (provided no welding, but be reasonable with this because how often do you see coordinated welding use?)
31 lvl3 HMG hits kill a lvl3 carapace fade (ROF for HMG is about 13/s)
5 (4?) lvl3 shotgun shells do the same job (2/s)
At the moment, I'm biased in favor of the aliens with Yumosis. I'd break the scenario down into cases, then evaluate the likelyhood of each of those cases. It shouldn't be too complex.
For example... 31 bullets needed... if half of HA's concentrate on 1 fade with a %50 accuracy; 62/5=15 bullets needed to be fired from each HA... which is about 1 seconds of firing... I guess thats a pretty reasonable calculation... If room gets smaller fades are in worst situation in terms of blinking and concentration on one HA...
I vote for HA's... It is worth trying in a server though... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And considering
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's focus on a reasonable skill level and organization of marines. Same with the fades, don't assume they will all be in the same room at the same time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is all the more likely the fades would win. The marine team splits up due to the wrong guy chasing after a fade, one or two follows him, get cut off and strung out on a line blocking each other.
IF the fades attack in groups they might take down a few HA but they will block each others retreat.
IF the fades attack in constant tag-team both teams losses should be about even (the fades will lose 1-3 at first before the reloading starts), and if the fades are able to re-gestate they will win easily. Remember the time it takes to reload a hmg, if the fades keep attacking 2-3 of the marines will be reloading each time.
BUT since we are talking about only reasonable teamwork i'd have to bet on the marines, otherwise it would have been the fades.
Heavy armor would have to be worn by at least half of the marines in order for them to even hold ground, let alone make any progress.
In addition, the marines would have to stay in minimum groups of 3 in order to not get slaughtered by any 2 fades working together. The marines would have to have 6 players in order not to get slaughtered by any 4 fades working together. Even with 8 marines together, it would be difficult to get shots off with such a shortage of space and fades could simply cycle through going in and going out to pick them off.
HA is the only notable counter to the fade and only so if the majority of the marine team wears it.
All of this is assuming that both marines and aliens can play reasonably well. However, in the average game, this is not the case. The marines and the aliens are spread out evenly throughout the map. This means more room for the fades to move in and less average firepower for the marines. Focus fades dominate both in the average and advanced levels of combat games.
Following your complete scenario requirements, though, marines don't stand a chance.
You also said "In NS:Combat." So yes, killing the hive does amount to winning. And fades will not stop a jp from getting into the hive. The marines don't even have to damage the fades at all to win (other than the ones who wander into MS).
What you didn't say was that each player only gets one life. If that's the case, then everything is quite different. The suicidal JP rush doesn't apply, for all its typical power.
And I think that a bunch of fully upgraded LA marines have a slightly better chance than HA marines with 2 fewer upgrades. Welding LA is much faster, plus you still get 3 focus swipes. More time shooting, plus you can more easily get w3/hmg. Remember that the spore immunity doesn't come into play here.
What you didn't say was that each player only gets one life. If that's the case, then everything is quite different. The suicidal JP rush doesn't apply, for all its typical power.
And I think that a bunch of fully upgraded LA marines have a slightly better chance than HA marines with 2 fewer upgrades. Welding LA is much faster, plus you still get 3 focus swipes. More time shooting, plus you can more easily get w3/hmg. Remember that the spore immunity doesn't come into play here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you like bending the rules, don't you? The whole point of this scenario is to focus on the fighting outside of the hive, not the fight for the hive itself - getting to the hive, not killing the hive. I specifically stated that in my scenario. Obviously, in a real NS:Combat map, you will have gorges, lerks, and skulks - not all fades, although descent fades could easily match the JPs assuming they all don't clump in the same area of the map.
I know that bending the rules might seem like something to signify that you think 'outside the box', but it really is tacky in this case.
Before the HA can even reach the hive the CC is dead.
The obvious solution to this problem is to make it so the CC is invulerable unless 2/3's of the team marine team is dead.
a lvl 3 hmg owns a fade, and that level 3 hmg is only likely to have at max lvl 3 armour without HA or lvl 2 armour with ha(but lacking in resupply). Aim, fire, 30 shots later(or less), dead fade. he wont have a chance to hit you twice with his swipes. Ah if only every single ns player possessed the slightest bit of skill, we wouldnt have to put up with these stupid topics.
a lvl 3 hmg owns a fade, and that level 3 hmg is only likely to have at max lvl 3 armour without HA or lvl 2 armour with ha(but lacking in resupply). Aim, fire, 30 shots later(or less), dead fade. he wont have a chance to hit you twice with his swipes. Ah if only every single ns player possessed the slightest bit of skill, we wouldnt have to put up with these stupid topics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're another elitist trying to sound almighty. The fades don't have to attack one by one. The fades don't have to fight until they die. Marines don't have aimbots. You would have picked all of this up if you just read the topic. If only you would have thought about it for longer than the minute or so it took for you to coin a useless reply.
Often, there is much more complexity to something that you'd so easily write off as being stupid.
But hey, you felt smart right? Even if only for a moment. Live and learn.
btw fades arent always going to attack from infront of a marine... so how are you going to get 31 shots off on a fade that only needs less than a second to blink out?
unless if the marines have a decent space inbetween each exit/entrance the fades will run circles around the marines. assuming the fades have meta and know how to silence their blink. given the fades have decent skill theyll know how to blink <b>upwards</b>. which results in 8 confused marines looking around possibly wasting ammo. Of course the marines would have to be close to the fade for this to work since their pov will be focused mainly on whats on their level of ground..
Also aliens are alot more powerful in b5 given the fact that there is reduced knockback. even more so with HA.
but thats just me and my 2 cents. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A. They move faster.
B. They can Solo marine spawn at fade and above (3 levels compared to 4 with marines)
C. They can choose all 3 chamber upgrades cara regen is reidiculous with hive2 and celer.
I agree with what has been stated so far that basically the only option is to go for the hive itself (which you ruled out.) This leaves the marines with no chance as you cant kill the fades fast enough because of cara regen and they can then run exceptionally fast with celer and heal quickly with regen+hive2. As was previously stated marines can really only win within 4:00 with spawn camp or they all save for a big sg jp rush and pray that there isnt an umbra lerk and a gorge with webs.