The different chambers must resemble the type of players your team seems to have. For example, if you have a LOT of guys who can seriously fight and kill 2-3 marines, decent-good marines, then they need the benefit of sensory.
Movement chambers are not really useful in the initial stages because you only have one hive (duhh <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). They are made for serious transport mid-end way through the game.
Defense chambers can really really be helpful. You stick 4 d chambers right by 3-5 o chambers and lmgs can't touch em rofl. So it depends, do you like to stick defense up near resource points and wait till you get ur 2nd hive...do you like to keep the marines locked inside their base without losing 4 skulks in one rush.
Preference and playing style determine which chamber is useful when...which makes this mod very unique, you don't have constant whoring of the same weapon/upgrade over and over and over again.
Will be interesting to see which playing styles evolve and how they are used in the future of competitive play
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Movement chambers are not really useful in the initial stages because you only have one hive (duhh <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). ?They are made for serious transport mid-end way through the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... don't underestimate movement chambers.
I find silence to help me as a sulk much much more than cloaking. Cloaking makes you invisiable and all but when you move to attack the marine that just ran by he's going to hear you. That severly hurts your chances of victory. On the other hand if you can find a few good hiding spots and drop down after the marine passes you can run up to him without any contest and victory will be yours.
So my recommendation is either Movement, Defense, Sensory IF you can assure the second hive quickly or Defense Movement Sensory if it's not a sure.
Well here was my point in the whole discussion. It very well may be true that you have a couple highly skilled players on your team whose talents lie mainly with Sensory upgrades. But on a pub server, you can't really make those assumptions unless perhaps you can a couple of your clan buddies are thinking about taking over a server and you know eachothers play styles and plan to use the Sensory chambers to flex your skills.
But on the whole going DMS is the sensible solution for the elite and the newb alike. If you go this route you won't be punished as harshly for your mistakes. So it's best to use DMS on pub servers and leave pro-Sensory strats to private clan chat rooms.
Besides what if you lose a hive late in the game? I say let it be that last hive you made with the Sensory Chamber data that was the closest to their base. Once the marines get HAs, HMGs, jet packs, and siege cannons, you're gonna wish you had stuck with DMS.
I am not underestimating the usefulness of a movement chamber.
I am merely trying to compare how they can be effectively used in the initial stages of the game.
You look at sensory chambers...the beginning portions of the game really invite the marines to take over a hive...sensory can really be useful there. That with cloaking could really do some damage! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> !
Defense chambers are exceedingly pwnage. There usefulness in the early parts of the game is unmatched for pubs and a playing style which involves picking at the marines (killing 1-3 coming back and healing, and going back). Also a bunch of them would pwn lmgs trying to destroy OC's from far away.
Movement chambers provide excellent upgrades...however without the 2nd, 3rd hives their main function of moving between hives is null in void. Silence is great, but marines tend to fortify their base and get shotguns before you get 3 movement up...plus 3 movement in 1 hive is kind of a waste isn't it? Adrenaline is pwn...except its most useful for onos, fade, lerk w/ umbra/spore.
If you were to use movement relatively early I would suggest going defense > movement > sensory, but imo it isn't really THAT useful of an initial chamber due to one of its main characteristics being useless at that portion of the game
<3 and lots of <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well I don't know about other players but I find silence immensly more helpful than cloaking. Reason being that once you move while having only cloaked the marine is likely to hear you and attack. These maps are built with enough hiding spots that it's easy to not need cloaking.
Also the movement factor is negated by having only 1 hive but it really does make sulks more useful since they can silence or celerity themselves. Both which in my opinion are better than cloaking.
as an advocate of sensory towers first.. i must say this:
"IN A LONG, DRAWN OUT GAME, ALIENS BEST CHANCE FOR A WIN IS DEFENSE, MOVEMENT, SENSORY"...
I admit it..
but.. for me.. i only have fun as skulk... by the time its fade/onus evolution time, and marine base attack time, I usually quit or go gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.... just not as much fun not eating people in the back.
I agree that a good skulk can make many kills without cloak, but against semi-skilled players, you wont be able to kill very many.
My ideal game would be: get cloak, camp marine base with all skulks. Marines never successfully leave base. Gorg's build other 2 hives. Fades + Onos + 1 lerk attack final base. Its cheap... its kinda ghey.. but its fun to do <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Romano's argument is very true. But if marines are able to take + fortify a hive.. then it doesn't matter anyway, cuz the fun has come to an end either way (you'll need fades to retake it, and I dont find fade fun).
Slicing up 3-5 marines without HA in less than 5 seconds as a Fade is not fun? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Large map or map with highly contrasting areas (light to dark instantly, no go-between brightness)
Sensory -> Movement OR Defense then remaining
Sensory w/ enhanced hive sight lets you see the marines in any light level, and not to mention is VERY useful for spotting cloaked teammates, as well. Cloaking can be used to great advantage on such maps as the marines often get lost, or the faster ones go on ahead; also helps to "avoid" a marine seeing you when your in a ambush position! scent of fear lets you track any injured marines, and if you're close enough you can finish the job your teammate failed to do. Can detect enemies and put them on hive sight if they touch the chamebr (parasites), and gives you a aleart that it has detected a marine.
Medium Map with a fair amount of tubes/pipes/vents/etc to esentially make it a large map crumpled up
Movement -> Defence OR Sensory then remaining
Lets you move much faster through the pipes and such with celerity, and also lets you be ultra-stealthy if you ambush (movement sounds 0% if you have 3 movement chambers and silence!). since marines will prolly have phase gates on these maps, adren can help to take out the un-wanted visitors. will move you to the farthest hive from the current location.
Small to medium small
Defence -> Movement -> Sensory
Most of the maps will be very forgiving with this direct "tried and true" method of chambers. the smallest maps need defence chambers to soften the blow done by HA marines that can get from place to place much faster and wont be worn-down as much. Caraspace is the best, as it will let you have a higher armor rating, AND higher damage % absorbtion rate for the armor, as well. redemption is VERY important, saving you 46+ resources if you were a fade, 72+ if you were a onos, though it prolly wont be as good if your a skulk/ gorge/ lerk. regeneration is only really good for a ambush skulk or fade that has cloak, silence (to stop that "glug" sound from being heard and your steps) and ample time to wait while the *very* slow recharge rate of hp/armor raises your HP and Armor amount to max.
thats my total analisys... though, imo defense chamers, movement, sensory is often the best. it just depends on what the majorities' play styles are like: ambush, speed, or a stong body that can take loads of punishment.
I dont know... i sometimes want to cloak because frankly theres spots that the humans look up are lite up so i have to find a different spot to hide... I say Defense - Sensory - Movement. adrenaline is only good once you start going offence with your shiny new onos/fade skin....
guess you've never seen a skulk with celerity.. even heavy armor marines with hmg's have trouble killing you with caraprace and celerity.. you run in like a crazy little **obscenity** in a blur, jaws chomping but your also running circles around him, jumping off of everything and the dude basically cant track you well enough to place enough shots in you.. sure you might die (if he's lucky) but he'll be hurting.. also if your taking the worst of it or low on health you just haul **obscenity** away to the nearest defense node (which your really fast so you get to hit quick) heal up and hit him again .. still i go with the general template.. defense, movement, sensory (btw scent of fear owns for any fade who like using his ranged attacks ... hit em once and you know when they come to the corner or run away.)
imho Movement chambers should only be built with the second hive if your team relies heavily on skulks, not fades. Celerity and Silence are great for skulks, fades and lerks in mid game but Adrenaline gets only interesting once you have bile bombs, spore clouds and Onos. Being able to fire acid rockets faster as a Fade or to Umbra or fly constantly as a Lerk are not good enough reasons to build Movement chambers.
DEFENSE (for regen) then MOVEMENT (for adrenaline).... I love being a lerk and just using my continuous spike shoot to take down both marines and their coveted turret factories. The regen allows u to peek at a sentry and shoot at it for a while before u have to move back.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--guagle+Nov 11 2002, 02:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (guagle @ Nov 11 2002, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->imho Movement chambers should only be built with the second hive if your team relies heavily on skulks, not fades. Celerity and Silence are great for skulks, fades and lerks in mid game but Adrenaline gets only interesting once you have bile bombs, spore clouds and Onos. Being able to fire acid rockets faster as a Fade or to Umbra or fly constantly as a Lerk are not good enough reasons to build Movement chambers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I beg to differ. A Fade empties his energy in no time fireing that cannon of his. With adrenaline, he can splatter marines until the cows come home. Also, the power of an adrenilized Lerk is hard to overestimate. Just swoop down on that TF, hit the umbra, take out the turret that covers the TF, then get into the dead angle and kill it. About 30 sec to make a 120 RP marine nest dead in the water. Or support a fade with continuous umbras as he walks around and slays marines, impervious to almost anything except grenade launchers - or knives.
<!--QuoteBegin--padijun+Nov 8 2002, 09:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (padijun @ Nov 8 2002, 09:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Getting adrenaline early means you can fight harder, and warping hive to hive is a good bonus. I say defense -> movement -> sensory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is my theorum. Reasons?
Before two hives, all you have are weak pathetic aliens. Getting Carapce for them only adds 20 or so armor and does not in any effective way enhance your lifespan. Instead, get Celerity. Or as a Gorge, Adrenaline, Lerks as well need Adrenaline. A 3x Celerity skulk is a force to be reconned with. It moves so fast that I sometimes have trouble controling it and end up with 5 dead marines and no idea how they got that way. The icons say I bit them.. but it was just a blur.
Once you get two hives, you have Fades which can take advantage of the Carapace and Redemption upgrades a lot better than the tiny Skulks Lerks and Gorges. The only counter-argument I see to this is that when building offence towers and other fortifications Gorges like to put Def towers to heal them. And this makes sense. It really depends on the map. For *shudder* eclipse I'd go Celerity. For bast I'd take defence first.
Sensory is kind of all useless upgrades. If you're sneaky and good you don't need cloaking and those other abilities are a joke. Hurt marines? The commander can drop health packs on them. And then you can't see them. Enhanced sight? You see fine as it is!
Sensory is expendable in my opinion. It's fun with level 3 cloak, but that won't help you seige a marine spawn point.
<!--QuoteBegin--guagle+Nov 11 2002, 07:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (guagle @ Nov 11 2002, 07:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->imho Movement chambers should only be built with the second hive if your team relies heavily on skulks, not fades. Celerity and Silence are great for skulks, fades and lerks in mid game but Adrenaline gets only interesting once you have bile bombs, spore clouds and Onos. Being able to fire acid rockets faster as a Fade or to Umbra or fly constantly as a Lerk are not good enough reasons to build Movement chambers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh this is entirely wrong, btw.
Fades use energy like no one's business. try playing one with 3x Adrenaline, then try one with no adrenaline.
You can do SO MUCH damage with a 3x adrenaline 3x carapce Fade it's not even funny. Maybe a bit overpowered! *GASP*
I've been suspecting this since I started going 66-0 and 45-2 and so on and so forth as demonstrated <a href='http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/gibby/' target='_blank'>here.</a> They are just so incredibly awesome now. Not a complaint, just something to watch.
Comments
Def > Sen > Mov
Works as well.
If 2nd hive is set up fast and the marines don't have HA/HMG yet.
A skilled Fade with level 3 Cloaking can take down an entire squad of marines(maybe not as skilled as the Fade).
Movement chambers are not really useful in the initial stages because you only have one hive (duhh <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). They are made for serious transport mid-end way through the game.
Defense chambers can really really be helpful. You stick 4 d chambers right by 3-5 o chambers and lmgs can't touch em rofl. So it depends, do you like to stick defense up near resource points and wait till you get ur 2nd hive...do you like to keep the marines locked inside their base without losing 4 skulks in one rush.
Preference and playing style determine which chamber is useful when...which makes this mod very unique, you don't have constant whoring of the same weapon/upgrade over and over and over again.
Will be interesting to see which playing styles evolve and how they are used in the future of competitive play
-TAU|TheOMeGa <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> !
No... don't underestimate movement chambers.
I find silence to help me as a sulk much much more than cloaking. Cloaking makes you invisiable and all but when you move to attack the marine that just ran by he's going to hear you. That severly hurts your chances of victory. On the other hand if you can find a few good hiding spots and drop down after the marine passes you can run up to him without any contest and victory will be yours.
So my recommendation is either Movement, Defense, Sensory IF you can assure the second hive quickly or Defense Movement Sensory if it's not a sure.
Def > Sen > Mov
<b>IF</b>
- marines have not upgraded Heavy Armor / Heavy Machine Gun
- skilled stealthy Kharaa players are on the team
Why? Because Fades with Cloaking can kill an entire squad of Marines without Heavy Armor.
On the other hand, if they have Heavy Armor, Fades will need the Aderlaine to be able to spam enuf Acid Rockets at the HA/HMG marines from a distance.
But on the whole going DMS is the sensible solution for the elite and the newb alike. If you go this route you won't be punished as harshly for your mistakes. So it's best to use DMS on pub servers and leave pro-Sensory strats to private clan chat rooms.
Besides what if you lose a hive late in the game? I say let it be that last hive you made with the Sensory Chamber data that was the closest to their base. Once the marines get HAs, HMGs, jet packs, and siege cannons, you're gonna wish you had stuck with DMS.
I am merely trying to compare how they can be effectively used in the initial stages of the game.
You look at sensory chambers...the beginning portions of the game really invite the marines to take over a hive...sensory can really be useful there. That with cloaking could really do some damage! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> !
Defense chambers are exceedingly pwnage. There usefulness in the early parts of the game is unmatched for pubs and a playing style which involves picking at the marines (killing 1-3 coming back and healing, and going back). Also a bunch of them would pwn lmgs trying to destroy OC's from far away.
Movement chambers provide excellent upgrades...however without the 2nd, 3rd hives their main function of moving between hives is null in void. Silence is great, but marines tend to fortify their base and get shotguns before you get 3 movement up...plus 3 movement in 1 hive is kind of a waste isn't it? Adrenaline is pwn...except its most useful for onos, fade, lerk w/ umbra/spore.
If you were to use movement relatively early I would suggest going defense > movement > sensory, but imo it isn't really THAT useful of an initial chamber due to one of its main characteristics being useless at that portion of the game
<3 and lots of <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
-TAU|TheOMeGa
Useful if Hive is under attack.
Also the movement factor is negated by having only 1 hive but it really does make sulks more useful since they can silence or celerity themselves. Both which in my opinion are better than cloaking.
"IN A LONG, DRAWN OUT GAME, ALIENS BEST CHANCE FOR A WIN IS DEFENSE, MOVEMENT, SENSORY"...
I admit it..
but.. for me.. i only have fun as skulk... by the time its fade/onus evolution time, and marine base attack time, I usually quit or go gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.... just not as much fun not eating people in the back.
I agree that a good skulk can make many kills without cloak, but against semi-skilled players, you wont be able to kill very many.
My ideal game would be: get cloak, camp marine base with all skulks. Marines never successfully leave base. Gorg's build other 2 hives. Fades + Onos + 1 lerk attack final base. Its cheap... its kinda ghey.. but its fun to do <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Romano's argument is very true. But if marines are able to take + fortify a hive.. then it doesn't matter anyway, cuz the fun has come to an end either way (you'll need fades to retake it, and I dont find fade fun).
Duff
This is what my friend told me after I told him how hard of a time I had dodge-shooting his chambers.
------------
Edit:
Someone else says he was wrong. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Large map or map with highly contrasting areas (light to dark instantly, no go-between brightness)
Sensory -> Movement OR Defense then remaining
Sensory w/ enhanced hive sight lets you see the marines in any light level, and not to mention is VERY useful for spotting cloaked teammates, as well. Cloaking can be used to great advantage on such maps as the marines often get lost, or the faster ones go on ahead; also helps to "avoid" a marine seeing you when your in a ambush position! scent of fear lets you track any injured marines, and if you're close enough you can finish the job your teammate failed to do. Can detect enemies and put them on hive sight if they touch the chamebr (parasites), and gives you a aleart that it has detected a marine.
Medium Map with a fair amount of tubes/pipes/vents/etc to esentially make it a large map crumpled up
Movement -> Defence OR Sensory then remaining
Lets you move much faster through the pipes and such with celerity, and also lets you be ultra-stealthy if you ambush (movement sounds 0% if you have 3 movement chambers and silence!). since marines will prolly have phase gates on these maps, adren can help to take out the un-wanted visitors. will move you to the farthest hive from the current location.
Small to medium small
Defence -> Movement -> Sensory
Most of the maps will be very forgiving with this direct "tried and true" method of chambers. the smallest maps need defence chambers to soften the blow done by HA marines that can get from place to place much faster and wont be worn-down as much. Caraspace is the best, as it will let you have a higher armor rating, AND higher damage % absorbtion rate for the armor, as well. redemption is VERY important, saving you 46+ resources if you were a fade, 72+ if you were a onos, though it prolly wont be as good if your a skulk/ gorge/ lerk. regeneration is only really good for a ambush skulk or fade that has cloak, silence (to stop that "glug" sound from being heard and your steps) and ample time to wait while the *very* slow recharge rate of hp/armor raises your HP and Armor amount to max.
thats my total analisys... though, imo defense chamers, movement, sensory is often the best. it just depends on what the majorities' play styles are like: ambush, speed, or a stong body that can take loads of punishment.
on a 24 person server then def might be the best first option
but
on a 12 person server you should be able to get away with sensory to start.
although i do like to admit that droping in on some unsuspecting marines from a cloaked position is freakin hilarious.
It does splash damage.
Fires in a straight line.
I beg to differ. A Fade empties his energy in no time fireing that cannon of his. With adrenaline, he can splatter marines until the cows come home. Also, the power of an adrenilized Lerk is hard to overestimate. Just swoop down on that TF, hit the umbra, take out the turret that covers the TF, then get into the dead angle and kill it. About 30 sec to make a 120 RP marine nest dead in the water. Or support a fade with continuous umbras as he walks around and slays marines, impervious to almost anything except grenade launchers - or knives.
This is my theorum. Reasons?
Before two hives, all you have are weak pathetic aliens. Getting Carapce for them only adds 20 or so armor and does not in any effective way enhance your lifespan. Instead, get Celerity. Or as a Gorge, Adrenaline, Lerks as well need Adrenaline. A 3x Celerity skulk is a force to be reconned with. It moves so fast that I sometimes have trouble controling it and end up with 5 dead marines and no idea how they got that way. The icons say I bit them.. but it was just a blur.
Once you get two hives, you have Fades which can take advantage of the Carapace and Redemption upgrades a lot better than the tiny Skulks Lerks and Gorges. The only counter-argument I see to this is that when building offence towers and other fortifications Gorges like to put Def towers to heal them. And this makes sense. It really depends on the map. For *shudder* eclipse I'd go Celerity. For bast I'd take defence first.
Sensory is kind of all useless upgrades. If you're sneaky and good you don't need cloaking and those other abilities are a joke. Hurt marines? The commander can drop health packs on them. And then you can't see them. Enhanced sight? You see fine as it is!
Sensory is expendable in my opinion. It's fun with level 3 cloak, but that won't help you seige a marine spawn point.
Oh this is entirely wrong, btw.
Fades use energy like no one's business. try playing one with 3x Adrenaline, then try one with no adrenaline.
You can do SO MUCH damage with a 3x adrenaline 3x carapce Fade it's not even funny. Maybe a bit overpowered! *GASP*
I've been suspecting this since I started going 66-0 and 45-2 and so on and so forth as demonstrated <a href='http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/gibby/' target='_blank'>here.</a> They are just so incredibly awesome now. Not a complaint, just something to watch.