Let's Get Together And Figure Out The...
jammno
Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25832Members
Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25832Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Optimal number of sieges to use.</div> The purpose of this topic is to figure out what the optimal number of siege turrets to use.
What do I mean by this? Well lets take one siege turret. With a hive with no defense chambers and no healing gorges, how many waves will it take to destroy the hive?
What about for two turrets? Three turrets? Four? (This is if the siege is constantly blasting the hive.)
What I'm trying to do is see how many turrets will take down the hive the fastest. I know more turrets = faster, but I'm trying to get it optimized here.
Lets say (This is an example) that it takes ten blasts to take down a hive. Well if you build nine sieges, thats two waves to take it down, the first wave will critical the hive, the last wave will finish it off. But if you were to build five sieges, it would still take two waves, but you wouldn't have wasted the cash on the extra four sieges.
So here's what I'm proposing we should figure out and discover:
1) A ratio of siege turrets to waves it takes to blast down a hive.
2) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to healing gorges it takes to take down a hive.
3) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to healing gorges with lvl 3 adrenaline it takes to take downa hive.
4) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers around the hive it takes to take down the hive. (Not the defense chambers.)
5) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers to healing gorges it takes to take down a hive.
6) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers to healing gorges with adrenaline it takes to take down a hive.
On 4, 5, and 6 the turrets need to target the hive, and the defense chambers all need to be alive when the hive dies. So the gorge won't die from the siege blast, it should be placed in a safe area or it should be given invincibility.
This is a pretty hard task to fill out, and it will take hours of testing to complete, but I think it can benifit the NS community, both the public level and the professional level.
I planned to test this when tp // gets a server but that won't be for along time. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Once we get the data of 1-6, we can then start determining which is most cost / time effective. Ugh school distress alarm, gotta finish this post!!!
Okay I'm back. >_>. Just auto went off becuase of a shockwave from a lightning blast or somthing.
Anyone willing to test this? Or at least help me test it? I think it would be very benificial to adept commanders and would allow marine teams to take down the hive in optimal time before the aliens can react.
What do I mean by this? Well lets take one siege turret. With a hive with no defense chambers and no healing gorges, how many waves will it take to destroy the hive?
What about for two turrets? Three turrets? Four? (This is if the siege is constantly blasting the hive.)
What I'm trying to do is see how many turrets will take down the hive the fastest. I know more turrets = faster, but I'm trying to get it optimized here.
Lets say (This is an example) that it takes ten blasts to take down a hive. Well if you build nine sieges, thats two waves to take it down, the first wave will critical the hive, the last wave will finish it off. But if you were to build five sieges, it would still take two waves, but you wouldn't have wasted the cash on the extra four sieges.
So here's what I'm proposing we should figure out and discover:
1) A ratio of siege turrets to waves it takes to blast down a hive.
2) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to healing gorges it takes to take down a hive.
3) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to healing gorges with lvl 3 adrenaline it takes to take downa hive.
4) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers around the hive it takes to take down the hive. (Not the defense chambers.)
5) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers to healing gorges it takes to take down a hive.
6) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers to healing gorges with adrenaline it takes to take down a hive.
On 4, 5, and 6 the turrets need to target the hive, and the defense chambers all need to be alive when the hive dies. So the gorge won't die from the siege blast, it should be placed in a safe area or it should be given invincibility.
This is a pretty hard task to fill out, and it will take hours of testing to complete, but I think it can benifit the NS community, both the public level and the professional level.
I planned to test this when tp // gets a server but that won't be for along time. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Once we get the data of 1-6, we can then start determining which is most cost / time effective. Ugh school distress alarm, gotta finish this post!!!
Okay I'm back. >_>. Just auto went off becuase of a shockwave from a lightning blast or somthing.
Anyone willing to test this? Or at least help me test it? I think it would be very benificial to adept commanders and would allow marine teams to take down the hive in optimal time before the aliens can react.
Comments
How about this: The longer you can have your marines hold that position, the fewer turrets you need.
If marines are doing pretty well, but the kharaa have a massive OC farm, then you can take your time. Get two. After all the chambers are dead you can have some people shoot at the hive to help it along.
Now, let's say you are trying to take down a hive, ninja style. There are 2 fades and an onos roaming the map, and you want the hive down before they come and bring the hurt. Drop 4, maybe even 5 sieges. That hive needs to go down quickly. Don't bother with turrets if you don't plan on holding it long, just stuff the area full of sieges. Drop heavy weapons too, those will help far more than a turret ever will.
Don't get fewer than two. You spent the time and res to upgrade the TF, you might as well make it worthwhile and cut your time in half with a second cannon.
When you're done sieging, recycle all but one (unless you're getting rid of the tf too, or don't feel like defending it) so you can ping a build-happy gorge in the area. You don't need a ton laying around for that purpose, so recover some of your costs.
If you aren't killing a hive or 6-8 dcs (you often see this above the ladder from mess hall in nancy), then two is definately plenty.
This is based on:
1. The 3 sieges get built before any fire, then they fire all at once.
2. The commanders view is always directly on the hive (you get 1 more round of siege blasts if you scan then keep your view on the hive)
3. Presuming obs @ 100 energy you use your first scan to see all structures. You can then use the other 3 scan to ensure the siege just hit the hive (i.e you scan so the scan circles go over the hive but not the RT/OCs etc). If the obs isnt at 100 then a marine spots the hive (again, just looking at the hive, not other structures).
Public play tends to be quite random so ive no comment.
Regards,
Jez.
and 2 packs of mines.
1) A ratio of siege turrets to waves it takes to blast down a hive.
2) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to healing gorges it takes to take down a hive.
3) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to healing gorges with lvl 3 adrenaline it takes to take downa hive.
4) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers around the hive it takes to take down the hive. (Not the defense chambers.)
5) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers to healing gorges it takes to take down a hive.
6) A ratio of siege turrets to waves to defense chambers to healing gorges with adrenaline it takes to take down a hive.
On 4, 5, and 6 the turrets need to target the hive, and the defense chambers all need to be alive when the hive dies. So the gorge won't die from the siege blast, it should be placed in a safe area or it should be given invincibility. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you start a listen server yourself and try it out.
sv_cheats 1
spawnhive
givepoints
All useful commands. Another question I might add:
7) Does the effective armor boost to alien lifeforms at 2+ hives apply to the hive too? Test this by sieging a hive with 1 hive in existance, 2 hives, then three.
On 4, 5, 6, I would argue that it is a pretty unrealistic situation, but to do it, find the healing radius of defense chambers (in 1-mississippi, 2-mississippis) (use a turret to hurt yourself?) then place them that far from the hive so that the hive is in between the siege and the DCs. Sieges always target the closest building first.
Get your clan to help... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit] Another thing I might add, the "ratio" will have to factor in hive healing, as well, so you may find that if 9 sieges kill the hive in 2 shots, 5 may not. (Assuming sieges do 10% 5 do 50%, then the hive heals a percent, then they do 50% again bringing the hive down to 1%. Not dead, but close.)
They do 330 damage with each hit.
The hive has 7000 hp.
With 2 sieges, it would take 11 volleys (including hive heal, not including nearby DCs or gorges) to take it out.
With 3 sieges, it would take 8 volleys.
With 4 sieges, it would take 6 volleys.
Three sieges is the optimal amount. Each scan allows sieges to fire twice.
I'm going to have to try that one out. I wasn't aware.
Now, keep in mind that the most cost-effective solution might not be optimal. That might not be your goal.
If you have no gorges, no dcs, and no OCs in a hive chamber (or anything else that would cause the sieges to not hit the hive itself, like the rt), then 3 is the most cost effective. But if that's the case, then why don't you forget the siege altogether, get a phase get up and shotty rush the hive? It'll go down at least as fast, plus you get shotties out of it. The only problem is that you'll have to fight within hive healing range, and the kharaa will be harder to kill, but if you're quick about it they won't be able to make good use of the opportunity.
If there's enough stuff in the hive room to actually justify a sieging, then you probably want four of them. Unless you can wait all day, in which case you can cheap out on it.
I'm trying to maximize time here. Resources isn't an issue when it comes to winning >_>.
Adj, for you, all you have to do is JP/lmg rush the hive for seven minute gg. >_>
I normally don't siege either, but sometimes in crowded pubs, it's the only way.
I still want ratio's.
Have my clan do it? They're all new, most are CS'ers and could care less <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
:D
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crazy mofo.
Pretty much, if your scared of the aliens, and are pretty much keeping them at bay, drop 3 sieges and make damn well sure you have 100 energy in that obs (or close enough to it), because your going to have to ping 4 times.
But if your barely holding on to it, or there are gorges healing that hive, build 4. That 4th siege does wonders.
Anything above 4 is, tbh, a waste of res.
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_view_page.php?bug_id=0000465' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_vi...?bug_id=0000465</a>
It was 12 minutes into the game and I was shot by a turret (with one hive) and it did the normal 67/6 damage.
3 sieges will spend 1 ping obliterating the RT and any chambers in the way, and spend the last 3 pings killing the hive.
2 sieges will not kill the hive in 4 pings, usually due to the RT or chambers absorbing some shots.
A siege turret does 365 damage, a hive has 7000 hp.
That's 19.18 shots to kill a hive.
A scan lasts 10 seconds, a siege turret has a RoF of... <5 seconds?
So by these calculations, 4 scans will net you 8 shots from 1 siege turret. 16 shots from 2 siege turrets. 24 shots from 3 siege turrets.
However, if you chain your pings one after the other, you can get even more shots off. Perhaps an additional 3 salvos. This is as the siege turret spins around and only locks on when it points at the hive. Once it is locked on it keeps firing, and constant pinging means it keeps firing. If you stop pinging, it'll rotate away from the hive and takes time to re-acquire the target.
This is siege. it does 165 dmg and has a ROF of 4.
#define kSiegeDamage 165
#define kSiegeROF 4
This is hive. it heals with 0.15%, has 7000 health and I think the last one means a interval of 2.
#define kHiveRegenerationPercentage 0.15
#define kHiveHealth 7000
#define kHiveRegenerationAmount 2
The is DC, it has a interval of 2, range of 400 and it heals 10health at a time.
#define kDefenseChamberThinkInterval 2
#define kDefensiveChamberHealRange 400
#define kDefensiveChamberRegenAmount 10
you get 0.10 more armor a hive.
#define kArmorAbsorptionPerExtraHive 0.10
Healspray has a scalar of 5, w/e that means. It heals @ 4% for players. costs 0.15 energy and has a ROF of 1.60
#define kHealingSprayBuildableScalar 5
#define kHealingSprayPlayerPercent 4
#define kHealingSprayEnergyCost 0.15
#define kHealingSprayROF 1.60
adren gives you 0.33 energy% per lvl.
#define kAdrenalineEnergyPercentPerLevel 0.33
energy rate is 0.08
#define kAlienEnergyRate 0.08
===
So in 4 seconds a siege does 165 dmg
A hive heals 0.15% in 2 seconds. Itself means: 10.5 hp, thats 21 in 4 seconds.
A DC heals 10 in 2 seconds, thats 20 in 4 seconds.
energy is 1. Meaning after 6 sprays you are on 0.10.
Spray costs 1.60, times 6 is 9.6 seconds.
Spray gives you 4% each spray. thats 280 for a hive. 280*6= 1680 hp in 9.6 seconds.
Within 9.4 seconds a siege has done 330dmg (8 seconds)
So if we look at 9.6 seconds you lose 330, gain 42 by hive (2 times 4 secs), gain 40 by DC (2 times 4 secs) and gain 1680 by 9.6 seconds. (the second heal tick kicks in on 10 seconds from hive and DC)
So without forge we have a hive on 6752 in 9.6 seconds, a gorge keeps it a healthy 7000 fort he FIRST 9.6 seconds. After that a gorge needs energy.
So hive only with 1 siege dies in: 196 seconds which is 3,267 minutes.
0 <span style='color:red'>7000</span>
4 <span style='color:red'>6856</span>
8 <span style='color:red'>6712</span>
12 <span style='color:red'>6568</span>
16 <span style='color:red'>6424</span>
20 <span style='color:red'>6280</span>
24 <span style='color:red'>6136</span>
28 <span style='color:red'>5992</span>
32 <span style='color:red'>5848</span>
36 <span style='color:red'>5704</span>
40 <span style='color:red'>5560</span>
44 <span style='color:red'>5416</span>
48 <span style='color:red'>5272</span>
52 <span style='color:red'>5128</span>
56 <span style='color:red'>4984</span>
60 <span style='color:red'>4840</span>
64 <span style='color:red'>4696</span>
68 <span style='color:red'>4552</span>
72 <span style='color:red'>4408</span>
76 <span style='color:red'>4264</span>
80 <span style='color:red'>4120</span>
84 <span style='color:red'>3976</span>
88 <span style='color:red'>3832</span>
92 <span style='color:red'>3688</span>
96 <span style='color:red'>3544</span>
100 <span style='color:red'>3400</span>
104 <span style='color:red'>3256</span>
108 <span style='color:red'>3112</span>
112 <span style='color:red'>2968</span>
116 <span style='color:red'>2824</span>
120 <span style='color:red'>2680</span>
124 <span style='color:red'>2536</span>
128 <span style='color:red'>2392</span>
132 <span style='color:red'>2248</span>
136 <span style='color:red'>2104</span>
140 <span style='color:red'>1960</span>
144 <span style='color:red'>1816</span>
148 <span style='color:red'>1672</span>
152 <span style='color:red'>1528</span>
156 <span style='color:red'>1384</span>
160 <span style='color:red'>1240</span>
164 <span style='color:red'>1096</span>
168 <span style='color:red'>952</span>
172 <span style='color:red'>808</span>
176 <span style='color:red'>664</span>
180 <span style='color:red'>520</span>
184 <span style='color:red'>376</span>
188 <span style='color:red'>232</span>
192 <span style='color:red'>88</span>
196 <span style='color:red'>-56</span>
2 sieges:
0 <span style='color:red'>7000</span>
4 <span style='color:red'>6691</span>
8 <span style='color:red'>6382</span>
12 <span style='color:red'>6073</span>
16 <span style='color:red'>5764</span>
20 <span style='color:red'>5455</span>
24 <span style='color:red'>5146</span>
28 <span style='color:red'>4837</span>
32 <span style='color:red'>4528</span>
36 <span style='color:red'>4219</span>
40 <span style='color:red'>3910</span>
44 <span style='color:red'>3601</span>
48 <span style='color:red'>3292</span>
52 <span style='color:red'>2983</span>
56 <span style='color:red'>2674</span>
60 <span style='color:red'>2365</span>
64 <span style='color:red'>2056</span>
68 <span style='color:red'>1747</span>
72 <span style='color:red'>1438</span>
76 <span style='color:red'>1129</span>
80 <span style='color:red'>820</span>
84 <span style='color:red'>511</span>
88 <span style='color:red'>202</span>
92 <span style='color:red'>-107</span>
3 sieges:
0 <span style='color:red'>7000</span>
4 <span style='color:red'>6526</span>
8 <span style='color:red'>6052</span>
12 <span style='color:red'>5578</span>
16 <span style='color:red'>5104</span>
20 <span style='color:red'>4630</span>
24 <span style='color:red'>4156</span>
28 <span style='color:red'>3682</span>
32 <span style='color:red'>3208</span>
36 <span style='color:red'>2734</span>
40 <span style='color:red'>2260</span>
44 <span style='color:red'>1786</span>
48 <span style='color:red'>1312</span>
52 <span style='color:red'>838</span>
56 <span style='color:red'>364</span>
60 <span style='color:red'>-110</span>
And finally 4 sieges:
0 <span style='color:red'>7000</span>
4 <span style='color:red'>6361</span>
8 <span style='color:red'>5722</span>
12 <span style='color:red'>5083</span>
16 <span style='color:red'>4444</span>
20 <span style='color:red'>3805</span>
24 <span style='color:red'>3166</span>
28 <span style='color:red'>2527</span>
32 <span style='color:red'>1888</span>
36 <span style='color:red'>1249</span>
40 <span style='color:red'>610</span>
44 <span style='color:red'>-29</span>
Thinks I can go wrong on:
---------
I can not find the amount of energy
I can not find the amount of energy a second is gained without adren. (with probably 99% with 3 chambers)
I asume the values mean seconds
+++++++++
Now of course I can also put in the values for 1 DC, 2 DC etc. Since I lack info I can not calculate spray.
>edit. put color in since damn thing eats my tabs.
edit for a detected severe typo<
I'm also going to check on turret damage and see if it does indeed scale with weapons levels as the bugtracker states later, I've been too lazy to confirm it.
This is siege. it does 165 dmg and has a ROF of 4.
#define kSiegeDamage 165
#define kSiegeROF 4
This is hive. it heals with 0.15%, has 7000 health and I think the last one means a interval of 2.
#define kHiveRegenerationPercentage 0.15
#define kHiveHealth 7000
#define kHiveRegenerationAmount 2
The is DC, it has a interval of 2, range of 400 and it heals 10health at a time.
#define kDefenseChamberThinkInterval 2
#define kDefensiveChamberHealRange 400
#define kDefensiveChamberRegenAmount 10
you get 0.10 more armor a hive.
#define kArmorAbsorptionPerExtraHive 0.10
Healspray has a scalar of 5, w/e that means. It heals @ 4% for players. costs 0.15 energy and has a ROF of 1.60
#define kHealingSprayBuildableScalar 5
#define kHealingSprayPlayerPercent 4
#define kHealingSprayEnergyCost 0.15
#define kHealingSprayROF 1.60
adren gives you 0.33 energy% per lvl.
#define kAdrenalineEnergyPercentPerLevel 0.33
energy rate is 0.08
#define kAlienEnergyRate 0.08 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of your assumptions are wrong <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
at least as far as I know:
Hive heals 15% on PLAYERS, not *.15%* on itself. I don't know how much the hive heals buildings, might be 20. Dunno. I'm fairly sure its not .15% though.
Scalar of 5 for healspray: I'm pretty sure that this means that healspray is multiplied by 5 for buildings. Back when it was 16 per heal (80 on a hive), it healed about 1% per heal, which makes sense with 80. So I'm guessing it's either 80 or 85 (13 + 4 = 17) now...
Other than that, seems fine.
You never know how many DCs are around the hive.
Some DCs well be destroyed before the hive goes down.
The number of gorges healing the hive might differ.
Sieges might decide to fire at the rt or other chambers first.
But in general: The more chambers are near the hive area, the more sieges i let my rines built. If you wanne surprise them take care that you have 5 sieges and that they are all finished the same moment. Send in some SG as well and you have the hive dowin in less than 20 sec.
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_view_page.php?bug_id=0000465' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/bt/bug_vi...?bug_id=0000465</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if it's fixed than there is still the bug of the correct sound not playing.
Flayra personally said that upgrades should never affect sieges. Evar.
why would these values be wrong?
When someone knows starting energy lvl, energy restore values etc it starts to get easy.
If I know all needed variables its easy to put together a little excel file which can calculate what we want, with 1 dc, or 4.
Of course, some get destroyed, but lets always think of worst case. Al stay up till hive is down.
So lets do it like this. I made a list of variables yes? If you think a variable is wrong, put the entire list in your post, put the NEW variable under the old one with a short explenation why I was wrong.
If you got a new variable say how you got it and what it does. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Put under the list with one open inbetween.