Frankly, I've yet to see many Comms make full, practical use of this ability. In fact, the only real occurance that comes to mind would have to be the door leading from outside Marine Start to Main Aft Junction on ns_bast.
lol kill a blinking fade with a door? Sure yeah cos the comm with his super hearing can tell exactly when to close the door on something moving really fast.
So far when I was a comm I have only killed one thing with doors and that was a dumb onos that was waiting for a marine to devour and I closed the door, it didn't even realise the door was closing behind him and next thing squish. - Aliens need to be aware of their surrounds a tad more and another side. You have to freaking aware of the damn noise your making. So many times as a marine I have guessed where an alien is and waited to kill him. Next thing I get accused of using wallhacks when I could clearly hear the alien moving towards me using my headphones.
Now I don't think the ability for the comm to close the doors out balances anything.. IN fact I think it brings some balance back to stop those damn fades and charging onos running through your base, now at least you can trap them and have them killed, with some skill and quick reactions from the comm, its not like its that easy to click the button to open the door and you have to find the damn thing first. (Not easy from the Comm view)
The ability to close doors just adds another skill for a commander, please someone tell me whats the difference between a marine standing at a switch ready to close it who has a DIRECT visual and the commander who has a top down indirect visual (being that they perhaps only sound to guide them when to close the door.)
I think we've thoroughly argued against the original suggestion. Unless somebody comes up with a new argument FOR removing the ability, I would advise all you forum monkeys out there (I know you're out there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) to just ignore this thread and let it slink back through the pages.
I've found out that this aint a game problem, but a map flaw (as someone stated above). The flaw is that the doors on ns_nancy (1 outside ms, 2 outside port) can be spammed by the comm so nothing can get through (and if anything tries, it <i>will</i> be killed).
No one uses this strat anyway... Why not I don't know. Lets say the door is pnematic and really heavy. It might crush a skulk, the fragile lork? Okay. Surly the gorge would be protected my its layers of cuteness, er I mean fat...
The fade and onos? Now way, the door should hit them and grind to a halt. The Kharra chuckles and leaves.
The only map that really has this issue is Nancy. For those of you old enough to remember, it was much, much worse in 1.0x, when skulkies could parasite kill marines passing through the doors to Mess Hall. Crazy moronic early games.
Now, as far as comms messing with doors and doors killing things... T. Ali is mostly correct (to my knowledge), with one notable exception... You can still jam the Nancy doors, though it requires a noble sacrifice of one life (and can be reset with another similar sacrifice).
So, the question I pose is thus: If comms can't do it, does that really solve the problem? Will you feel better if a gorge spits the Mess Hall doors shut on a heavy, or if a crouched marine shuts the Mess Hall door on your 75 res onos?
I think it's FINE as is, except for potential spammage. I definitely think that, if you want to fix it, you should at least leave comm touching alone... It doesn't target the root of your concern, and it messes with other aspects (aliens keep shutting the doors on your gl? Comm to the rescue! Fades keep blinking in, blinking out? Comm shut the door, trap the fade! Skulks chewing the res in Cargo? Open the door and make them check for marines!)
It's possible to flag certain areas as unbuildable correct? So why not just put this zone in all door pathways and all elevators and make it so that they bounce off of players doing very little to no damage. In this scenario the only thing that will truly be blocked is an elevator and with an onos, because you can just jump off the elevator before it is all the way down with any other life form. And who the heck would spend 75 res just to stand underneath an elevator.
It's easy to set doors not to kill, but with elevators they often have a lip around them, so that they can fit flush with the floor. If you don't kill anything under it, then the player will get stuck there, unable to jump out over the lip. So it's better to just smash anything under it so that the player and the elevator aren't permanently stuck.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Sep 25 2004, 12:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Sep 25 2004, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I say get rid of it again, it was removed for a reason in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason it was "removed" before was a bug, it was supposed to stay in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's easy to set doors not to kill, but with elevators they often have a lip around them, so that they can fit flush with the floor. If you don't kill anything under it, then the player will get stuck there, unable to jump out over the lip. So it's better to just smash anything under it so that the player and the elevator aren't permanently stuck. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't func_door's bounce back when they're blocked? If I remember from a test map I rigged up a while ago, the entity would go down, hit my marine, do the set damage, and start doing back up.
Plus, anybody who's clinically sane should be using func_door's as elevators. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
I love all the elevators and doors that kill stuff. Origin is my favorite map because of this, it's so easy to rape aliens with elevators (HI MUSTANG, HI TITANIUM)
<!--QuoteBegin-Turkey22+Oct 9 2004, 12:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Turkey22 @ Oct 9 2004, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Sep 25 2004, 12:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Sep 25 2004, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I say get rid of it again, it was removed for a reason in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason it was "removed" before was a bug, it was supposed to stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Right you are, I just though it sounded catchy. Or something.
With elevators you can just clip the lip, so the elevator can go through, but the player can't get in there. And all elevators should be made not to stop when someone activates the button again. It's very annoying to be stuck.
I think that this issue should not be removed as it is completely dependant on the map being played, it is not an exploit/problem throughout the whole game.
Speaking as a mapper I would say that a certain amount of common sense comes into this when designing a map.
1. The speed of the door should depend partly on its size and weight.
2. The damage of a door should depend on its speed, size, and weight.
With this in mind you can see why closing doors to kill Aliens should never be considered an exploit, nor should the Commander's ability to manipulate the internal features of an ns_map be removed. This is an interactive element of the game whose removal would only kill NS playability.
The only doors that should be able to move fast enough to successfully do damage to a player should be doors with substantial momentum. Doors that are only 10cm/3" thick and made out of a lightweight metal alloy wouldn't be able to do appreciable damage to a I-don't-know-how-many-ton Onos. It is, however, feasible that a gargantuan steel door designed to hold against high pressure (/extreme impact etc.), while moving at a much slower speed, could trap and maim a player.
I will post these guidelines on the Mapping Forum to limit the occurrance of the reverse happening.
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+Oct 13 2004, 05:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Oct 13 2004, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*vote lock this topic* anyone?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You end your post with something enormously arrogant. Just because you feel this feature is a good one, or you believe you have thought it through more than others, doesnt mean you have the right to decide that the subject is not worth discussing anymore.
Sentences such as "lock this topic please", "I belive this topic should be locked" or "anyone agree that this topic should be locked?" etc shouldnt be allowed on these forums. They are a threat to discussions on any topic and are used all too often by self-righteous community members when someone has suggested something they themselves do not agree with.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
When talking about adding or removing a feature, I ask myself a couple of questions. The first one is "Does this require skill to execute?". The more skill required, the more I want to allow the feature. Not many people can successfully manage to drop an elevator or close a door on an alien. In fact I think I've seen maybe 5 commanders besides myself that do this, and most of those 5 are competitive players. Another question is "Does this ability have a counter?" Abilities that lack counters are generally frowned upon. The counter to this is simple: Don't act retarded as an alien. If you're an onos, don't go below an elevator. If you are near doors that can kill you, be wary of standing in the doorway. I've killed at least 5 onos this week because they stood in the doorways on ns_nancy just a moment too long and I noticed them. Use some intelligence and this won't even be an issue. Plan your escape accordingly in areas that have switch controlled doors and it will be less of an issue. Don't complain about something that requires an almost excessive amount of skill to execute.
Theres no counter other than not playing ns_nancy nubtard Adj. If the same delay as for a marine using the door applied I could see it - but as it doesn't, its pretty easy to catch anything with the doors, down to even gorges. And they have to pass those spots sooner or later to access 70% of the map.
Your ego has finally gone through with you if you think that ns_nancy door kills are difficult to any significant degree. Instant close plus the very forgiving hit detection makes them more like generic deathmunchers than actual doors - I've killed 2 seperate blinking fades with ONE door close for example, although neither of them appeared to still be near it.
Finally, even if ns_nancy weren't so batshit crazy, simply not being there does not consititute a counter. I can see the tactical viability and depth in allowing the commander to open/close things, but its sheer sillyness to add random instagib to that and doesn't add anything but frustration and randomness.
Simply put : If somethings standing in the way of a door/elevator, it should reverse direction. End of story.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited October 2004
I used nancy as a blatant example of where this would apply, nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't about ego at all. It was about aliens who simply aren't aware of their surroundings and got killed because of it. Onos would literally stand in the doorways and I'd gib them with the doors when I realized something was in the doorway, I didn't catch them running or anything, they were just SITTING there. That constitutes really bad judgement. Origin is similar, many of the elevators are quite hazardous to everyone's health if you're below them when they close. The cargo elevators are quite dangerous (hi apollo and mustang), and gib anything below them.
My point was that being killed by elevators and doors is usually do to poor decision making and intelligent commanding, not an exploitive function of the commander interface.
Yeah, starting with biodome hive on origin or playing nancy at all are really bad alien decisions.
Sorry, but saying "you have to make the smart decision to walk a wide circle around those danger-zones" doesn't constitute good gameplay. And in the case of nancy, the frequency of those spots makes the map fairly unsuited for competitive play.
And saying "OLO BUT THE CORNMANDOR NEEDS TO HIT THE FADE TO KILL IT" doesn't make it any better. All those actions are absolutely free, so whenever a fade is in the area you simply roll the dice until you get a kill - seeing as you win while expending nearly nothing both ways (either block an escape or get an instagib). So sure a fade can pass from industrial to double - but it is a gamble for all or nothing on the fades side, and a casual mouseclick on the commanders side.
Elevator and door kills are stupid and biased against aliens because their life-forms tend to be more concentrated meaning a single death can have a far far greater impact on the game than for marines (telefragging is in the same boat but I guess thats for another thread).
However, removing the commander's ability to interact with the map would be a worse impact to the game in general than leaving door kills in. The ability for the commander to interact with the environment is one of the many small things that makes ns such a unique and fascinating game, if anything we should be suggesting ways to increase that interaction not remove it.
I think a policy of removing the ability of doors to cut through aliens like a scythe through wheat would be an infinitely better solution to this issue than to remove the commander's ability to use the doors. Even if you locked out the commander the marines on the ground could still do it manually which is even more dangerous from the point of view that they are there to bait the aliens into the door and block.
Comments
So far when I was a comm I have only killed one thing with doors and that was a dumb onos that was waiting for a marine to devour and I closed the door, it didn't even realise the door was closing behind him and next thing squish. - Aliens need to be aware of their surrounds a tad more and another side. You have to freaking aware of the damn noise your making. So many times as a marine I have guessed where an alien is and waited to kill him. Next thing I get accused of using wallhacks when I could clearly hear the alien moving towards me using my headphones.
Now I don't think the ability for the comm to close the doors out balances anything.. IN fact I think it brings some balance back to stop those damn fades and charging onos running through your base, now at least you can trap them and have them killed, with some skill and quick reactions from the comm, its not like its that easy to click the button to open the door and you have to find the damn thing first. (Not easy from the Comm view)
The ability to close doors just adds another skill for a commander, please someone tell me whats the difference between a marine standing at a switch ready to close it who has a DIRECT visual and the commander who has a top down indirect visual (being that they perhaps only sound to guide them when to close the door.)
The fade and onos? Now way, the door should hit them and grind to a halt. The Kharra chuckles and leaves.
That's like saying "because this disease is so rare, we should not treat it at all, even though all we need to do is give the patient antibiotics".
Now, as far as comms messing with doors and doors killing things... T. Ali is mostly correct (to my knowledge), with one notable exception... You can still jam the Nancy doors, though it requires a noble sacrifice of one life (and can be reset with another similar sacrifice).
So, the question I pose is thus: If comms can't do it, does that really solve the problem? Will you feel better if a gorge spits the Mess Hall doors shut on a heavy, or if a crouched marine shuts the Mess Hall door on your 75 res onos?
I think it's FINE as is, except for potential spammage. I definitely think that, if you want to fix it, you should at least leave comm touching alone... It doesn't target the root of your concern, and it messes with other aspects (aliens keep shutting the doors on your gl? Comm to the rescue! Fades keep blinking in, blinking out? Comm shut the door, trap the fade! Skulks chewing the res in Cargo? Open the door and make them check for marines!)
My 2 dinarii.
I say get rid of it again, it was removed for a reason in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it was "removed" before was a bug, it was supposed to stay in.
Don't func_door's bounce back when they're blocked? If I remember from a test map I rigged up a while ago, the entity would go down, hit my marine, do the set damage, and start doing back up.
Plus, anybody who's clinically sane should be using func_door's as elevators. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I say get rid of it again, it was removed for a reason in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it was "removed" before was a bug, it was supposed to stay in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right you are, I just though it sounded catchy. Or something.
Speaking as a mapper I would say that a certain amount of common sense comes into this when designing a map.
1. The speed of the door should depend partly on its size and weight.
2. The damage of a door should depend on its speed, size, and weight.
With this in mind you can see why closing doors to kill Aliens should never be considered an exploit, nor should the Commander's ability to manipulate the internal features of an ns_map be removed. This is an interactive element of the game whose removal would only kill NS playability.
The only doors that should be able to move fast enough to successfully do damage to a player should be doors with substantial momentum. Doors that are only 10cm/3" thick and made out of a lightweight metal alloy wouldn't be able to do appreciable damage to a I-don't-know-how-many-ton Onos. It is, however, feasible that a gargantuan steel door designed to hold against high pressure (/extreme impact etc.), while moving at a much slower speed, could trap and maim a player.
I will post these guidelines on the Mapping Forum to limit the occurrance of the reverse happening.
<b>1.</b> I lobbied for <s>this idea</s> (more specifically) the ability of the commander to trigger events, and it's a good one
<b>2.</b> You cannot blame bad map design or player stupidity on the source code, period.
*vote lock this topic* anyone?
Fun to scare aliens, and helps your squad move quicker.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You end your post with something enormously arrogant. Just because you feel this feature is a good one, or you believe you have thought it through more than others, doesnt mean you have the right to decide that the subject is not worth discussing anymore.
Sentences such as "lock this topic please", "I belive this topic should be locked" or "anyone agree that this topic should be locked?" etc shouldnt be allowed on these forums. They are a threat to discussions on any topic and are used all too often by self-righteous community members when someone has suggested something they themselves do not agree with.
<i>Carthago delenda est!</i>
Your ego has finally gone through with you if you think that ns_nancy door kills are difficult to any significant degree. Instant close plus the very forgiving hit detection makes them more like generic deathmunchers than actual doors - I've killed 2 seperate blinking fades with ONE door close for example, although neither of them appeared to still be near it.
Finally, even if ns_nancy weren't so batshit crazy, simply not being there does not consititute a counter. I can see the tactical viability and depth in allowing the commander to open/close things, but its sheer sillyness to add random instagib to that and doesn't add anything but frustration and randomness.
Simply put : If somethings standing in the way of a door/elevator, it should reverse direction. End of story.
My point was that being killed by elevators and doors is usually do to poor decision making and intelligent commanding, not an exploitive function of the commander interface.
Sorry, but saying "you have to make the smart decision to walk a wide circle around those danger-zones" doesn't constitute good gameplay. And in the case of nancy, the frequency of those spots makes the map fairly unsuited for competitive play.
And saying "OLO BUT THE CORNMANDOR NEEDS TO HIT THE FADE TO KILL IT" doesn't make it any better. All those actions are absolutely free, so whenever a fade is in the area you simply roll the dice until you get a kill - seeing as you win while expending nearly nothing both ways (either block an escape or get an instagib). So sure a fade can pass from industrial to double - but it is a gamble for all or nothing on the fades side, and a casual mouseclick on the commanders side.
However, removing the commander's ability to interact with the map would be a worse impact to the game in general than leaving door kills in. The ability for the commander to interact with the environment is one of the many small things that makes ns such a unique and fascinating game, if anything we should be suggesting ways to increase that interaction not remove it.
I think a policy of removing the ability of doors to cut through aliens like a scythe through wheat would be an infinitely better solution to this issue than to remove the commander's ability to use the doors. Even if you locked out the commander the marines on the ground could still do it manually which is even more dangerous from the point of view that they are there to bait the aliens into the door and block.