While I think Soylent green has got the right of this I believe that since this is not about testing a new medical drug or household appliance, but actually a way to approach your life, "the real deal" isnt really that important. Hell, if this "zen" stuff makes people feel happy, let them.
If someone however starts referring to this post while arguing for this or that change to the game, I will be on that person quicker than Blixt Gordon.
But there’re also another aspects. I see often very good players trapped in their behaviour pattern because they are successful with them. It’s the typical “play to win”-style. If you are caught into such a behaviour pattern its difficult to accept that’s your fault.
A nice text about “play to win” and “play to play”
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Playing to win and playing to learn are often at odds. If you play the game at hand to maximize you chances of winning, then you won’t take the unnecessary risks of trying out new tactics, counters, moves, patterns, or whatever. Playing it straight is the best way to win the game at hand, but at the cost of valuable information about the game that you may need later, and valuable practice to expand your narrow repertoire of moves or tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think of a game as a topological landscape with lots of hills and peaks that represent different tactics/strategies/characters. The higher the peak, the more effective that strategy is. Over time, players explore this landscape, discover more and more the hills and peaks, and climb to higher locations on the known hills and peaks. Players can’t really add height to these peaks; they are only exploring what’s there. The problem is, when you reach the base of a new peak (say, the rock ball trap peak), it can be very hard to know that the pinnacle isn’t very high. It might be really difficult to climb (lots of nuances to learn to do the trap), but in the end, the effectiveness of the tactic is low compared to the monstrous mountains that are out there. You have reached a local maximum, and would do better to exploring for new mountains. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The unlikely moral here is that playing to win is often counter-productive. Those who love the game and play to play will uncover the unusual nuances that might be important in a tournament. Those nuances might never be important, but the “play to play” player doesn’t care. It’s all for fun, and he’s happy to accumulate whatever knowledge he can. The “play to win” player might lock himself into perfecting certain tactics/strategies/character that will eventually be obsolete, as hard as that will be to believe at the moment. Meanwhile, the player who is able to take a step back and mess around will either discover new mountains to climb, or at least take a stab at climbing some other known mountains. The joke’s on you when his mountain turns out to be 10 times higher than yours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Nov 5 2004, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Nov 5 2004, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You’re getting a 100% ACK from me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> About 90% of the population won't get this...
YOU GEEK. GEEEEEEK! GEEEEEEEEK!
*Beats with the 'Geekdom' stick* <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Btw this topics name should be "Using ur brain - thinking for dummies",so dont wonder if some holier-than-you guys like soylent green and me flame the **** out of you *g*.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Btw this topics name should be "Using ur brain - thinking for dummies",so dont wonder if some holier-than-you guys like soylent green and me flame the **** out of you *g*.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Care to point out where I have flamed anyone or did you only intend to get your 'jollies' by quickly insulting the topic creator and me in rapid succession and then ducking out of the thread?
It's just sad that anything but agreement and apraisal(in particular inquiry and any form of disagreement and argument either for or against) are so resented by some.
Gecko was just sharing an insight he had which helped improve his gaming and how he can evolve to be a better gamer. I had arrived at a similiar conclusion and agreed with him that it is a really good insight and it can help improve not just yourself but teamplay in general for NS.
Now if this insight is obvious to you, congratulations, I was wrong and you do know what we are talking about.
But when I read the first line of your post,
<b>Soylent Green</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you are saying is completely and utterly obvious and can be summed up as "do your best".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which later goes on to say,
<b>Soylent Green</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you can dress it up in so many words and call it "mindset", "frame of mind", tell your life story and try to sell me snake oil for all I care, that's all that I see in your post and it's nothing revolutionary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard for me to respect your reply because you seem to be belittling his insight rather then discussing it. I apologize if I took your post the wrong way but that's the impression it gave me.
I don't react well to people belittling other people. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then when you make comments like,
<b>Soylent Green</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunetly, actively trying to do my best has allways failed me...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Soylent Green</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Still don't see it. Being positive IS part of trying your best, giving up and whining is counter productive, do we really need to involve the 'zen' stuff or whatever that is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It gives me the impression that you don't quite understand what Gecko is talking about.
But whatever the case may be lets take it back a few notches and chill out. Gecko was generous enough to take the time and write a thread about something he found helpful to his gaming. He isn't here to complain about NS or whine about the next Update. He's trying to make a contribution in his own little way so let's cut him some slack for that.
I propose we just quit this <i>negative-o</i> back-and-forth shiznit between Soylent and whomever, and lets talk about the topic at hand. You don't have to agree or disagree with Gecko, as long as it is done with respect, it's all good. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So no more hate in a thread that's guilty of nothing more then trying to promote some NS <3.
<b>Scylla</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But there?re also another aspects. I see often very good players trapped in their behaviour pattern because they are successful with them. It?s the typical ?play to win?-style. If you are caught into such a behaviour pattern its difficult to accept that?s your fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I recognize your quotes from www.sirlin.net? The Play-to-Win Articles right? Thanks for reminding me I'm gonna give those a re-read, very excellent and very insightfully written.
<b>sirlin.net</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The unlikely moral here is that playing to win is often counter-productive. Those who love the game and play to play will uncover the unusual nuances that might be important in a tournament.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a <b><i>vital</i></b> insight.
My opinion is that the "Play-to-Win" attitute is still important. That drive, determination, and will to succeed has many incredible advantages. I don't think the author tries to dissuade you from "Play-to-Win" but it is clear that,
<b>sirlin.net</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ?play to win? player might lock himself into perfecting certain tactics/strategies/character that will eventually be obsolete, as hard as that will be to believe at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So don't "Play-to-Win" all the time.
I think you should have the instincts of "Play-to-Win" and the soul of "Play-to-Play". Perhaps that razor edge balance is what makes the most dangerous kind of competitor; a player with serious skills and an ever deepening knowledge of the game.
Think games, think business, think sports.
I think Gecko's insight and this subsequent thread, explores the inner feelings and patterns to do with honing a more effective competitor but from the very core which is your thoughts and instincts. Think of some of his ideas as personal psychological tactics and strategies for l337n355. He also points out some pitfalls and set-backs due to certain negative psychological patterns.
Good quotes Scylla. And for those who are interested in the articles: <a href='http://www.sirlin.net/index.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/index.htm</a>
I think what Soylent should have said is that it is a very simple idea. However, simple ideas are not always obvious, especially when there is an alternate that involves saying that we are perfect.
When I play marine (which is all I play these days) I have one thing on my mind:
"Think like an alien."
If I think like an alien when I play marine, I can easily predict alien movement, ambushes, and where their fatties will be at what times. If you're anything like me, after a few months of play with this mindset, you will be a great marine, however your alien play will be completely shot as you will have no confidence.
I used to be a good alien. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As alien my mindset is "OMGLOL SHOTGUNS WHERE ARE OUR FADES WTH WHY DONT WE HAVE A SECOND HIVE WE'RE LOSING OUR NODES OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!!!"
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Nov 5 2004, 11:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Nov 5 2004, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Soylent Green</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you are saying is completely and utterly obvious and can be summed up as "do your best".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which later goes on to say,
<b>Soylent Green</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you can dress it up in so many words and call it "mindset", "frame of mind", tell your life story and try to sell me snake oil for all I care, that's all that I see in your post and it's nothing revolutionary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard for me to respect your reply because you seem to be belittling his insight rather then discussing it. I apologize if I took your post the wrong way but that's the impression it gave me.
I don't react well to people belittling other people. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe it was actually not an attempt to belittle, but an attempt to point out that personal experience is the worst for of proof there is, and that anywhere when someone tries to get a "discovery" known by giving examples of personal experiences and comes up with meta-physical phrases to describe a phenomenon, you should be extra careful with what that person has to say.
This is not disrespectful in any way, but only a stating of the belief that has grown in the scientifical world to become a paradigm during the last couple of hundred years.
I for one believe that the original poster has a point in what he says, and that he has identified some of the key points for personal develoment. I also believe Soylent green is right when he points out that it has been written in a way which in many people would inspire a nearly religion-like beliefe and in others a deep scepticism due to the former, and that a better way of presenting this information would have been to crisply write down the different important points and explaining them in relation to the human psyche.
Radical scepticism is the only accepted approach in the paradigm of today.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Nov 6 2004, 02:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Nov 6 2004, 02:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe it was actually not an attempt to belittle, but an attempt to point out that personal experience is the worst for of proof there is, and that anywhere when someone tries to get a "discovery" known by giving examples of personal experiences and comes up with meta-physical phrases to describe a phenomenon, you should be extra careful with what that person has to say.
This is not disrespectful in any way, but only a stating of the belief that has grown in the scientifical world to become a paradigm during the last couple of hundred years.
I for one believe that the original poster has a point in what he says, and that he has identified some of the key points for personal develoment. I also believe Soylent green is right when he points out that it has been written in a way which in many people would inspire a nearly religion-like beliefe and in others a deep scepticism due to the former, and that a better way of presenting this information would have been to crisply write down the different important points and explaining them in relation to the human psyche.
Radical scepticism is the only accepted approach in the paradigm of today. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Scientific paradigm? Radical Scepticism?
How is any of this applicable to Gecko's post?
It's <b><i>free</i> advice</b> based on his <i>experiences</i>, not a paper for peer review in a scientific journal.
Am I crazy? or did you just totally way over-analyze this thing or what...?
And what's that about inspiring "...a nearly religion-like belief..." from Gecko's post...? I mean it was a good post but inspire a religious-like belief? Do you mean like it would inspire religous like belief or it is written like religion or Gecko wants to convert our religion... or what?
I don't really know how to respond to this really...
With "a nearly religion-like belief" I mean the fact that you dont, for even a second, stop to think things through and actually question what he wrote and as soon as someone argues against it you start talking of belittling.
How is any of this applicable to Gecko's post? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe it is applicable in all circumstances. Just because it doesnt have a nice cover or that it is on an internet forum for an obscure game doesnt mean you should stop thinking. Take that stuff you were tought in school and apply it in real life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I crazy? or did you just totally way over-analyze this thing or what...? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh I'm known to do this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[QUOTE]I think you should have the instincts of "Play-to-Win" and the soul of "Play-to-Play". Perhaps that razor edge balance is what makes the most dangerous kind of competitor; a player with serious skills and an ever deepening knowledge of the game. QUOTE] I am trying to advicate a "Play-to-Learn" type style.. in doing so youll win more games. Another good style is "Play-to-be-Challenged"
(you are right some people would get more out of this if I explained the human psycology and stuff behind it. but...I dont know all of it. all I know is what I went through personaly and I tried my best to explain it. If someone would be willing to take the main points and turn it into a more scientific means I would love to see it, for unfornitatly I am unable to do so at this current time.)
<b>tjosan</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I crazy? or did you just totally way over-analyze this thing or what...?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeh I'm known to do this<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can tell you are an over-analyzer... and a little presumptuous too.
Are you accusing me of Zealotry? You better have some good evidence for this because I don't take being called a zealot very well... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>tjosan</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean the fact that you dont, for even a second, stop to think things through and actually question what he wrote<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this the evidence for supporting your accusation? When did <b><i>presumption</i></b> become <b><i>fact</i></b>? You <b><i>assumed</i></b> I didn't think about what Gecko's post but you have no evidence but your own conjecture.
I have no problem over-analysis or a little presumptuousness, but when you start using your <b><i>assumptions</i></b> as <u><b>facts</b></u> I have a major problem with that.
If you take another look at how this thread unfolded I clearly stated that I discovered some of the same concepts he relates to NS in real life. In fact from my reply (below) I expanded on the idea of perspective, self-imposed limitations, and that I discovered these insights not in NS but in everyday life.
<b>Fantasmo</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know what "game" I figured this out for?
Life!
Your perspective (frame of mind) often matters the most in life. Some people spend their whole lives making excuses or blaming others... trapped in a mental jail of their own making.
It's a valuable lesson... freedom from self-imposed limitations.
And people say you can't learn anything from playing games... kudos buddy!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You accuse of me of not thinking about his post, not questioning his post, and agreeing with him with "a nearly religion-like belief." <u>Have you considered that I didn't <i>need</i> to think or question his post because I <b>already know</b> much of what he posted from my own personal experience?</u>
I expect an apology for accusing me a Zealot tjosan. You have provided no proof, made assumptions and came to a faulty conclusion. Hardly rational and more of a witchhunt don't you think?
<b>tjosan</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->as soon as someone argues against it you start talking of belittling.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read Soylent's post, I detected a few belittling statements and I called him on it. I made it clear in my reply (which he has not responded too) that it is <i><b>my opinion</i></b> that I thought he was belitting on these two lines;
<b>Soylent Green</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you are saying is completely and utterly obvious and can be summed up as "do your best".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you can dress it up in so many words and call it "mindset", "frame of mind", tell your life story and try to sell me snake oil for all I care, that's all that I see in your post and it's nothing revolutionary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't agree or disagree with what he had to say, I just disagreed with <i>how</i> he said it. But this particular exchange is between me and Soylent. I accused him of belittling, if he wishes to sort the matter out, I will be happy to discuss it with him respectfully.
Now regarding "scientific paradigms" and "radical scepticism;"
<b>tjosan</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe it is applicable in all circumstances. Just because it doesnt have a nice cover or that it is on an internet forum for an obscure game doesnt mean you should stop thinking. Take that stuff you were tought in school and apply it in real life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how and why you would apply these things to Gecko's <b><u>advice</b></u>. Start by defining the two concepts. I don't think you've really thought this through but instead of assuming I will ask you to demonstrate that you understand what you are talking about.
I warn you in advance, I have some background in science so don't try to blow a smokescreen of multisyllabic words and complex pseudoscience rationalizations.
<b>Gecko</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you are right some people would get more out of this if I explained the human psycology and stuff behind it. but...I dont know all of it. all I know is what I went through personaly and I tried my best to explain it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you should have to provide scientific explainations for your <u>personal experiences</u>.
Don't get me wrong your advice can definately be related to ideas and developments in human psychology (very interesting ones too!) but my feeling was your purpose was just to share some personal insights and experiences. You stated right from the get-go that this post/advice is based off of your personal experiences, you aren't trying to prove anything.
What is the point of subjecting your personal experience to rigorous scientific inquiry?
You posted personal experiences in the form of advice and invited other people to share their own perspective on the matter. I found your subject to be quite refreshing... until it went all off-topic.
I figured a little dramma may happen, due to the fact that when you enter the realm of beliefs and mind sets a sorta "religion" type thing comes into play. Thats why I stated above no flaming. and all and all. im glade to see everyone keeping it simple.
If anyone else wants to share some personal experiances that they went through around mental mind frames. feel free to post.
When I think about it, it would be hard to bring scientific proof around this since its more a mental thing around opensis and thinking positive. etc. the only thing I can say is. Belive it, try it, if it doesn't work for a week or help. Throw it out no harm done. I work a job that requirse the same type of mindset I use for NS. I have to anylze what I did and didn't do right every day.
NS was really urging for something like this. I think, on a community-wide basis, we all need to adapt to this philosophy**.
Your statement is absolutely true. No game, no matter what the hacker state or such, there needs to be a level of decency** and respect. We need to help each other or try to improve if we think they're hacking. If you think they are, try to improve as much as you possibly can and try and meet their standard with no hacking whatsoever. Then, you will never accuse anyone of hacking again. It takes a noble person to un-balance the teams, and that person has to be you. Upon reading this, I challenge all you NS pubbers out there to take on these philosophies** and do what Gecko did. Adjust your mental mindframes, and you'll find, games are much much more enjoyable than they are currently.
<!--QuoteBegin-ModChaosControl+Nov 8 2004, 06:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl @ Nov 8 2004, 06:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...there needs to be a level of decency** and respect. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There was a lot of that going on in the beginning... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ...are we too far gone to regain it?
Maybe it was the newness of the game, but one of the things I was geniunely impressed with about NS was how everyone helped each other out and teams were generally more cohesive.
It made things more exciting and wins (and loses) more satisfying. Like having a feeling of time well spent.
Sorry I've been gone for so long I see alot has happened. Alot of people can't seem to take any sort of criticism without reenterpreting it to be an insult on their persona, others can.
I did not intend to insult anyone, nor am I easily offended. If I'm the least bit angry I <i>don't</i> talk to people, forums or otherwise, nothing good will come of it.
I never understood this phobia towards analysing("overanalysing") ideas. What possible benefit could come from me telling you my ideas if I didn't wan't you to take them as either a joke(in which case it's pretty obvious that's what it is) if it is appropiate or as something which isn't just so much hot air that it cannot stand up to any inquiry. In my mind criticism is much better than just a kind word without much afterthought, if someone criticises my ideas(and it is valid critisism without to much vitriol, but it's good just to be brought up for discussion all the same) that means that someone thought through my idea and has more to bring to the table for discussion, that's more flattering than just a kind word or some 'anecdotal evidence'* in my eyes. I'm treating you like I would like to be treated(unless I'm directly insulted without even a blind stab at an argument).
*it's been proven again and again and again how little faith you should put into someones experiences. Humans are simply not capable of judging for themselves what works and what doesn't unless the effects are orders of magnitude better than a placebo. For example, acupuncture works well for all sort of problems and specifically releiving all sorts of discomfort, but it turns out to work just as well if you stick the needles randomly in a single blind study.(it's impossible for he or she who is administering the 'treatment' to not know wheter they are doing it correctly or not. Likewise you cannot even do a single blind study when it comes to some treatments where the patient will notice if the treatment was done or not). I'm going to be very skeptical about ideas like this because most of it is obvious and a bit of it, such as staying positive(and not just steering clear of counter productive behaviour) is so darned difficult to verify. There's literally thousands of examples like this strewn all over medical science and it's one of the biggest(and least discussed) paradigms shifts in the last century in our understanding of our selves and how medical science and anything dealing with ourselves should preceed.
There's a very real risk that we reinterpret things differently when doing something we think might somehow help us, or we are in a nice mood and forgetting loses more easily because we did not fret over them. Accepting blame might not do anything more than make us accept losses easier instead of "notifying team mates that it's all their fault" and thereby wasting an opertunity to learn.
If you want an idea to be taken as seriously as it should be you will need to define it as non-ambigously as possible. If you mean mood or behaviour or any combination of them don't call it 'mindset'(which is ill defined), or at least tell us what you specifically mean by mindset.
If you're just fishing for some <span style='color:red'><3</span> don't hide it in the guise of an idea you really want to tell us about, there's no reason you can't create a thread where everyone finds something to complement the person above with or something similar, unless one of the admins is heartless enough to enforce the no spam rule.
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+Nov 10 2004, 08:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Nov 10 2004, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you're just fishing for some <span style='color:red'><3</span> don't hide it in the guise of an idea you really want to tell us about, there's no reason you can't create a thread where everyone finds something to complement the person above with or something similar, unless one of the admins is heartless enough to enforce the no spam rule. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent idea, I think at this point we could use a bit of mending/huggles <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Would you care to start said thread?
<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Nov 5 2004, 08:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Nov 5 2004, 08:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Nov 5 2004, 02:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Nov 5 2004, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You’re getting a 100% ACK from me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> About 90% of the population won't get this...
YOU GEEK. GEEEEEEK! GEEEEEEEEK!
*Beats with the 'Geekdom' stick* <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry … I thought that acronym is quite common <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ACK = acknowledged
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Nov 5 2004, 11:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Nov 5 2004, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think I recognize your quotes from www.sirlin.net? The Play-to-Win Articles right? Thanks for reminding me I'm gonna give those a re-read, very excellent and very insightfully written.
…snipped...
I think you should have the instincts of "Play-to-Win" and the soul of "Play-to-Play". Perhaps that razor edge balance is what makes the most dangerous kind of competitor; a player with serious skills and an ever deepening knowledge of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The writer of the articles „play to win“came to the same conclusion that you need the drive of “play to win” but also should take your time to mess around with the game (“play to play”) so you’re able to gather knowledge about the game.
These articles helped me to “categorize” my own (and others) current playing style. Especially as commander I was sometimes also stucked in “play to win” pattern and wasn’t able to take the proper actions on special situations. More efforts in gaining knowledge helped me out of some “stalemate”-situations as commander by using a know solution to this special situation or by trying a new solution.
Whatever the round get won or lost – at least I gained knowledge.
I also highly suggest reading them – they helped me to changing my mind set as I’m now able to categorize my current playing style (as I’m even more the “play to play” style player).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skill and knowledge in the game are obsolete - if you’re not able to change them in case of doubt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
by mental mind sets, im also refering to something similar to having a mental program. even though humans are random and consious. patterns do exsist with in behaviors, as im sure you could agree with. Soylent green
For example a self blocking mind set could be.
(If player kills me figure out resion why I was killed.) and thats usulay it for alot of people.
So what would happen is that for example
If player kills me, figure resion why. Player had Jetpack. How come I can't kill him. Because im new.
that could be a possible newbie start thing. now lets say its happened over a period of 2 months.
If player kills me, figure resion why. player had jetpack. how come I can't kill him. because im new I'm not new because I have played for 2 months, in fact im good. figure new resion why I can't kill him. Jetpacks over powered.
Now what im saying is by staying positive and open minded. and reviewing all your mental programing and watching your own thoughts while playing the game, you should start asking yourself good questions. for example
If player kills me, figure resion why player had jetpack how come I can't kill him because I dont know how. <-- Notice the difrance between new, and dont know Figure out how to counter jps. <--- This path way opens up ideas for new learning
this is what I refer to. I know that this probrably isn't the most scientificaly accurate anylisis, but this is just my own. from my own experiances and a few others I know.
Comments
If someone however starts referring to this post while arguing for this or that change to the game, I will be on that person quicker than Blixt Gordon.
But there’re also another aspects. I see often very good players trapped in their behaviour pattern because they are successful with them. It’s the typical “play to win”-style. If you are caught into such a behaviour pattern its difficult to accept that’s your fault.
A nice text about “play to win” and “play to play”
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Playing to win and playing to learn are often at odds. If you play the game at hand to maximize you chances of winning, then you won’t take the unnecessary risks of trying out new tactics, counters, moves, patterns, or whatever. Playing it straight is the best way to win the game at hand, but at the cost of valuable information about the game that you may need later, and valuable practice to expand your narrow repertoire of moves or tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think of a game as a topological landscape with lots of hills and peaks that represent different tactics/strategies/characters. The higher the peak, the more effective that strategy is. Over time, players explore this landscape, discover more and more the hills and peaks, and climb to higher locations on the known hills and peaks. Players can’t really add height to these peaks; they are only exploring what’s there. The problem is, when you reach the base of a new peak (say, the rock ball trap peak), it can be very hard to know that the pinnacle isn’t very high. It might be really difficult to climb (lots of nuances to learn to do the trap), but in the end, the effectiveness of the tactic is low compared to the monstrous mountains that are out there. You have reached a local maximum, and would do better to exploring for new mountains. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The unlikely moral here is that playing to win is often counter-productive. Those who love the game and play to play will uncover the unusual nuances that might be important in a tournament. Those nuances might never be important, but the “play to play” player doesn’t care. It’s all for fun, and he’s happy to accumulate whatever knowledge he can. The “play to win” player might lock himself into perfecting certain tactics/strategies/character that will eventually be obsolete, as hard as that will be to believe at the moment. Meanwhile, the player who is able to take a step back and mess around will either discover new mountains to climb, or at least take a stab at climbing some other known mountains. The joke’s on you when his mountain turns out to be 10 times higher than yours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
About 90% of the population won't get this...
YOU GEEK. GEEEEEEK! GEEEEEEEEK!
*Beats with the 'Geekdom' stick* <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
Btw this topics name should be "Using ur brain - thinking for dummies",so dont wonder if some holier-than-you guys like soylent green and me flame the **** out of you *g*.
Care to point out where I have flamed anyone or did you only intend to get your 'jollies' by quickly insulting the topic creator and me in rapid succession and then ducking out of the thread?
It's just sad that anything but agreement and apraisal(in particular inquiry and any form of disagreement and argument either for or against) are so resented by some.
Gecko was just sharing an insight he had which helped improve his gaming and how he can evolve to be a better gamer. I had arrived at a similiar conclusion and agreed with him that it is a really good insight and it can help improve not just yourself but teamplay in general for NS.
Now if this insight is obvious to you, congratulations, I was wrong and you do know what we are talking about.
But when I read the first line of your post,
<b>Soylent Green</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you are saying is completely and utterly obvious and can be summed up as "do your best".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which later goes on to say,
<b>Soylent Green</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you can dress it up in so many words and call it "mindset", "frame of mind", tell your life story and try to sell me snake oil for all I care, that's all that I see in your post and it's nothing revolutionary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard for me to respect your reply because you seem to be belittling his insight rather then discussing it. I apologize if I took your post the wrong way but that's the impression it gave me.
I don't react well to people belittling other people. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then when you make comments like,
<b>Soylent Green</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunetly, actively trying to do my best has allways failed me...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Soylent Green</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Still don't see it. Being positive IS part of trying your best, giving up and whining is counter productive, do we really need to involve the 'zen' stuff or whatever that is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It gives me the impression that you don't quite understand what Gecko is talking about.
But whatever the case may be lets take it back a few notches and chill out. Gecko was generous enough to take the time and write a thread about something he found helpful to his gaming. He isn't here to complain about NS or whine about the next Update. He's trying to make a contribution in his own little way so let's cut him some slack for that.
I propose we just quit this <i>negative-o</i> back-and-forth shiznit between Soylent and whomever, and lets talk about the topic at hand. You don't have to agree or disagree with Gecko, as long as it is done with respect, it's all good. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So no more hate in a thread that's guilty of nothing more then trying to promote some NS <3.
<b>Scylla</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But there?re also another aspects. I see often very good players trapped in their behaviour pattern because they are successful with them. It?s the typical ?play to win?-style. If you are caught into such a behaviour pattern its difficult to accept that?s your fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I recognize your quotes from www.sirlin.net? The Play-to-Win Articles right? Thanks for reminding me I'm gonna give those a re-read, very excellent and very insightfully written.
<b>sirlin.net</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The unlikely moral here is that playing to win is often counter-productive. Those who love the game and play to play will uncover the unusual nuances that might be important in a tournament.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a <b><i>vital</i></b> insight.
My opinion is that the "Play-to-Win" attitute is still important. That drive, determination, and will to succeed has many incredible advantages. I don't think the author tries to dissuade you from "Play-to-Win" but it is clear that,
<b>sirlin.net</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ?play to win? player might lock himself into perfecting certain tactics/strategies/character that will eventually be obsolete, as hard as that will be to believe at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So don't "Play-to-Win" all the time.
I think you should have the instincts of "Play-to-Win" and the soul of "Play-to-Play". Perhaps that razor edge balance is what makes the most dangerous kind of competitor; a player with serious skills and an ever deepening knowledge of the game.
Think games, think business, think sports.
I think Gecko's insight and this subsequent thread, explores the inner feelings and patterns to do with honing a more effective competitor but from the very core which is your thoughts and instincts. Think of some of his ideas as personal psychological tactics and strategies for l337n355. He also points out some pitfalls and set-backs due to certain negative psychological patterns.
Good quotes Scylla. And for those who are interested in the articles:
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/index.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/index.htm</a>
Give them a read, highly suggested!
EDiT: TyPoS
Anyway, good post.
"Think like an alien."
If I think like an alien when I play marine, I can easily predict alien movement, ambushes, and where their fatties will be at what times. If you're anything like me, after a few months of play with this mindset, you will be a great marine, however your alien play will be completely shot as you will have no confidence.
I used to be a good alien. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As alien my mindset is "OMGLOL SHOTGUNS WHERE ARE OUR FADES WTH WHY DONT WE HAVE A SECOND HIVE WE'RE LOSING OUR NODES OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!!!"
Yeah...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you are saying is completely and utterly obvious and can be summed up as "do your best".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which later goes on to say,
<b>Soylent Green</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you can dress it up in so many words and call it "mindset", "frame of mind", tell your life story and try to sell me snake oil for all I care, that's all that I see in your post and it's nothing revolutionary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard for me to respect your reply because you seem to be belittling his insight rather then discussing it. I apologize if I took your post the wrong way but that's the impression it gave me.
I don't react well to people belittling other people. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe it was actually not an attempt to belittle, but an attempt to point out that personal experience is the worst for of proof there is, and that anywhere when someone tries to get a "discovery" known by giving examples of personal experiences and comes up with meta-physical phrases to describe a phenomenon, you should be extra careful with what that person has to say.
This is not disrespectful in any way, but only a stating of the belief that has grown in the scientifical world to become a paradigm during the last couple of hundred years.
I for one believe that the original poster has a point in what he says, and that he has identified some of the key points for personal develoment. I also believe Soylent green is right when he points out that it has been written in a way which in many people would inspire a nearly religion-like beliefe and in others a deep scepticism due to the former, and that a better way of presenting this information would have been to crisply write down the different important points and explaining them in relation to the human psyche.
Radical scepticism is the only accepted approach in the paradigm of today.
This is not disrespectful in any way, but only a stating of the belief that has grown in the scientifical world to become a paradigm during the last couple of hundred years.
I for one believe that the original poster has a point in what he says, and that he has identified some of the key points for personal develoment. I also believe Soylent green is right when he points out that it has been written in a way which in many people would inspire a nearly religion-like beliefe and in others a deep scepticism due to the former, and that a better way of presenting this information would have been to crisply write down the different important points and explaining them in relation to the human psyche.
Radical scepticism is the only accepted approach in the paradigm of today. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scientific paradigm?
Radical Scepticism?
How is any of this applicable to Gecko's post?
It's <b><i>free</i> advice</b> based on his <i>experiences</i>, not a paper for peer review in a scientific journal.
Am I crazy? or did you just totally way over-analyze this thing or what...?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And what's that about inspiring "...a nearly religion-like belief..." from Gecko's post...? I mean it was a good post but inspire a religious-like belief? Do you mean like it would inspire religous like belief or it is written like religion or Gecko wants to convert our religion... or what?
I don't really know how to respond to this really...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scientific paradigm?
Radical Scepticism?
How is any of this applicable to Gecko's post?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe it is applicable in all circumstances. Just because it doesnt have a nice cover or that it is on an internet forum for an obscure game doesnt mean you should stop thinking. Take that stuff you were tought in school and apply it in real life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I crazy? or did you just totally way over-analyze this thing or what...?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh I'm known to do this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
QUOTE]
I am trying to advicate a "Play-to-Learn" type style.. in doing so youll win more games. Another good style is "Play-to-be-Challenged"
(you are right some people would get more out of this if I explained the human psycology and stuff behind it. but...I dont know all of it. all I know is what I went through personaly and I tried my best to explain it. If someone would be willing to take the main points and turn it into a more scientific means I would love to see it, for unfornitatly I am unable to do so at this current time.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I crazy? or did you just totally way over-analyze this thing or what...?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh I'm known to do this<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can tell you are an over-analyzer... and a little presumptuous too.
<b>tjosan</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With "a nearly religion-like belief"....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you accusing me of Zealotry? You better have some good evidence for this because I don't take being called a zealot very well... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>tjosan</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean the fact that you dont, for even a second, stop to think things through and actually question what he wrote<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this the evidence for supporting your accusation? When did <b><i>presumption</i></b> become <b><i>fact</i></b>? You <b><i>assumed</i></b> I didn't think about what Gecko's post but you have no evidence but your own conjecture.
I have no problem over-analysis or a little presumptuousness, but when you start using your <b><i>assumptions</i></b> as <u><b>facts</b></u> I have a major problem with that.
If you take another look at how this thread unfolded I clearly stated that I discovered some of the same concepts he relates to NS in real life. In fact from my reply (below) I expanded on the idea of perspective, self-imposed limitations, and that I discovered these insights not in NS but in everyday life.
<b>Fantasmo</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know what "game" I figured this out for?
Life!
Your perspective (frame of mind) often matters the most in life. Some people spend their whole lives making excuses or blaming others... trapped in a mental jail of their own making.
It's a valuable lesson... freedom from self-imposed limitations.
And people say you can't learn anything from playing games... kudos buddy!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You accuse of me of not thinking about his post, not questioning his post, and agreeing with him with "a nearly religion-like belief." <u>Have you considered that I didn't <i>need</i> to think or question his post because I <b>already know</b> much of what he posted from my own personal experience?</u>
I expect an apology for accusing me a Zealot tjosan. You have provided no proof, made assumptions and came to a faulty conclusion. Hardly rational and more of a witchhunt don't you think?
<b>tjosan</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->as soon as someone argues against it you start talking of belittling.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read Soylent's post, I detected a few belittling statements and I called him on it. I made it clear in my reply (which he has not responded too) that it is <i><b>my opinion</i></b> that I thought he was belitting on these two lines;
<b>Soylent Green</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you are saying is completely and utterly obvious and can be summed up as "do your best".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then you can dress it up in so many words and call it "mindset", "frame of mind", tell your life story and try to sell me snake oil for all I care, that's all that I see in your post and it's nothing revolutionary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't agree or disagree with what he had to say, I just disagreed with <i>how</i> he said it. But this particular exchange is between me and Soylent. I accused him of belittling, if he wishes to sort the matter out, I will be happy to discuss it with him respectfully.
Now regarding "scientific paradigms" and "radical scepticism;"
<b>tjosan</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe it is applicable in all circumstances. Just because it doesnt have a nice cover or that it is on an internet forum for an obscure game doesnt mean you should stop thinking. Take that stuff you were tought in school and apply it in real life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how and why you would apply these things to Gecko's <b><u>advice</b></u>. Start by defining the two concepts. I don't think you've really thought this through but instead of assuming I will ask you to demonstrate that you understand what you are talking about.
I warn you in advance, I have some background in science so don't try to blow a smokescreen of multisyllabic words and complex pseudoscience rationalizations.
<b>Gecko</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you are right some people would get more out of this if I explained the human psycology and stuff behind it. but...I dont know all of it. all I know is what I went through personaly and I tried my best to explain it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you should have to provide scientific explainations for your <u>personal experiences</u>.
Don't get me wrong your advice can definately be related to ideas and developments in human psychology (very interesting ones too!) but my feeling was your purpose was just to share some personal insights and experiences. You stated right from the get-go that this post/advice is based off of your personal experiences, you aren't trying to prove anything.
What is the point of subjecting your personal experience to rigorous scientific inquiry?
You posted personal experiences in the form of advice and invited other people to share their own perspective on the matter. I found your subject to be quite refreshing... until it went all off-topic.
EDiT: FiX [Qoutes]
If anyone else wants to share some personal experiances that they went through around mental mind frames. feel free to post.
When I think about it, it would be hard to bring scientific proof around this since its more a mental thing around opensis and thinking positive. etc. the only thing I can say is. Belive it, try it, if it doesn't work for a week or help. Throw it out no harm done.
I work a job that requirse the same type of mindset I use for NS. I have to anylze what I did and didn't do right every day.
Your statement is absolutely true. No game, no matter what the hacker state or such, there needs to be a level of decency** and respect. We need to help each other or try to improve if we think they're hacking. If you think they are, try to improve as much as you possibly can and try and meet their standard with no hacking whatsoever. Then, you will never accuse anyone of hacking again. It takes a noble person to un-balance the teams, and that person has to be you. Upon reading this, I challenge all you NS pubbers out there to take on these philosophies** and do what Gecko did. Adjust your mental mindframes, and you'll find, games are much much more enjoyable than they are currently.
**Spelling Error Probably.
There was a lot of that going on in the beginning... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
...are we too far gone to regain it?
Maybe it was the newness of the game, but one of the things I was geniunely impressed with about NS was how everyone helped each other out and teams were generally more cohesive.
It made things more exciting and wins (and loses) more satisfying. Like having a feeling of time well spent.
I did not intend to insult anyone, nor am I easily offended. If I'm the least bit angry I <i>don't</i> talk to people, forums or otherwise, nothing good will come of it.
I never understood this phobia towards analysing("overanalysing") ideas. What possible benefit could come from me telling you my ideas if I didn't wan't you to take them as either a joke(in which case it's pretty obvious that's what it is) if it is appropiate or as something which isn't just so much hot air that it cannot stand up to any inquiry. In my mind criticism is much better than just a kind word without much afterthought, if someone criticises my ideas(and it is valid critisism without to much vitriol, but it's good just to be brought up for discussion all the same) that means that someone thought through my idea and has more to bring to the table for discussion, that's more flattering than just a kind word or some 'anecdotal evidence'* in my eyes. I'm treating you like I would like to be treated(unless I'm directly insulted without even a blind stab at an argument).
*it's been proven again and again and again how little faith you should put into someones experiences. Humans are simply not capable of judging for themselves what works and what doesn't unless the effects are orders of magnitude better than a placebo. For example, acupuncture works well for all sort of problems and specifically releiving all sorts of discomfort, but it turns out to work just as well if you stick the needles randomly in a single blind study.(it's impossible for he or she who is administering the 'treatment' to not know wheter they are doing it correctly or not. Likewise you cannot even do a single blind study when it comes to some treatments where the patient will notice if the treatment was done or not). I'm going to be very skeptical about ideas like this because most of it is obvious and a bit of it, such as staying positive(and not just steering clear of counter productive behaviour) is so darned difficult to verify. There's literally thousands of examples like this strewn all over medical science and it's one of the biggest(and least discussed) paradigms shifts in the last century in our understanding of our selves and how medical science and anything dealing with ourselves should preceed.
There's a very real risk that we reinterpret things differently when doing something we think might somehow help us, or we are in a nice mood and forgetting loses more easily because we did not fret over them. Accepting blame might not do anything more than make us accept losses easier instead of "notifying team mates that it's all their fault" and thereby wasting an opertunity to learn.
If you want an idea to be taken as seriously as it should be you will need to define it as non-ambigously as possible. If you mean mood or behaviour or any combination of them don't call it 'mindset'(which is ill defined), or at least tell us what you specifically mean by mindset.
If you're just fishing for some <span style='color:red'><3</span> don't hide it in the guise of an idea you really want to tell us about, there's no reason you can't create a thread where everyone finds something to complement the person above with or something similar, unless one of the admins is heartless enough to enforce the no spam rule.
Excellent idea, I think at this point we could use a bit of mending/huggles <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Would you care to start said thread?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About 90% of the population won't get this...
YOU GEEK. GEEEEEEK! GEEEEEEEEK!
*Beats with the 'Geekdom' stick* <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry … I thought that acronym is quite common <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ACK = acknowledged
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Nov 5 2004, 11:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Nov 5 2004, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I think I recognize your quotes from www.sirlin.net? The Play-to-Win Articles right? Thanks for reminding me I'm gonna give those a re-read, very excellent and very insightfully written.
…snipped...
I think you should have the instincts of "Play-to-Win" and the soul of "Play-to-Play". Perhaps that razor edge balance is what makes the most dangerous kind of competitor; a player with serious skills and an ever deepening knowledge of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The writer of the articles „play to win“came to the same conclusion that you need the drive of “play to win” but also should take your time to mess around with the game (“play to play”) so you’re able to gather knowledge about the game.
These articles helped me to “categorize” my own (and others) current playing style. Especially as commander I was sometimes also stucked in “play to win” pattern and wasn’t able to take the proper actions on special situations. More efforts in gaining knowledge helped me out of some “stalemate”-situations as commander by using a know solution to this special situation or by trying a new solution.
Whatever the round get won or lost – at least I gained knowledge.
I also highly suggest reading them – they helped me to changing my mind set as I’m now able to categorize my current playing style (as I’m even more the “play to play” style player).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Skill and knowledge in the game are obsolete - if you’re not able to change them in case of doubt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For example a self blocking mind set could be.
(If player kills me figure out resion why I was killed.)
and thats usulay it for alot of people.
So what would happen is that for example
If player kills me, figure resion why.
Player had Jetpack.
How come I can't kill him.
Because im new.
that could be a possible newbie start thing. now lets say its happened over a period of 2 months.
If player kills me, figure resion why.
player had jetpack.
how come I can't kill him.
because im new
I'm not new because I have played for 2 months, in fact im good. figure new resion why I can't kill him.
Jetpacks over powered.
Now what im saying is by staying positive and open minded. and reviewing all your mental programing and watching your own thoughts while playing the game, you should start asking yourself good questions. for example
If player kills me, figure resion why
player had jetpack
how come I can't kill him
because I dont know how. <-- Notice the difrance between new, and dont know
Figure out how to counter jps. <--- This path way opens up ideas for new learning
this is what I refer to. I know that this probrably isn't the most scientificaly accurate anylisis, but this is just my own. from my own experiances and a few others I know.