A Request From A South African
FilthyLarry
Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members
Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">needs to be said</div> Hi all,
As a South African citizen I feel I must point something out. I know a few of you have used South Africa as an example of a country guilty of Human rights violations. This I do not have a problem with as long as we all realize government sponsored violations over there are a thing of the past.
The country has sinced moved on and abandoned Apartheid /embraced true democracy for almost a decade now. In fact it is even more of a democracy than the USA because it is solely based on popular vote.
Please do not mention South Africa in the same breath as Iraq under Saddam. This is quite ridiculous and frankly insulting.
And for everyone's information once again: Nelson Mandela, while certainly a great man was not a pacifist as he supported an _armed struggle_.
Now, if we need an example of a Country presently guilty of Human Rights violations my humble suggestion is China: They continue to occupy Tibet, and I suggest we focus on the plight of the people there.
<a href='http://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/' target='_blank'>An ongoing struggle</a>
As a South African citizen I feel I must point something out. I know a few of you have used South Africa as an example of a country guilty of Human rights violations. This I do not have a problem with as long as we all realize government sponsored violations over there are a thing of the past.
The country has sinced moved on and abandoned Apartheid /embraced true democracy for almost a decade now. In fact it is even more of a democracy than the USA because it is solely based on popular vote.
Please do not mention South Africa in the same breath as Iraq under Saddam. This is quite ridiculous and frankly insulting.
And for everyone's information once again: Nelson Mandela, while certainly a great man was not a pacifist as he supported an _armed struggle_.
Now, if we need an example of a Country presently guilty of Human Rights violations my humble suggestion is China: They continue to occupy Tibet, and I suggest we focus on the plight of the people there.
<a href='http://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/' target='_blank'>An ongoing struggle</a>
Comments
Unfortunately for the most part Tibet is ignored. I think it just isn't valuable enough to most people to care about. I don't think it has alot of mineral wealth or any strategic oil reserves for example. In addition, China is quite a formidable force to deal with.
Here is some text from the link I provided.
"China's People's Liberation Army took Tibet by force. When Chairman Mao came to power in 1949, one of the first things he did was send his troops to annex Tibet. Tibet did not have a large or well-equipped army. While there was a determined armed resistance to the Chinese invasion, the relatively small Tibetan army was eventually crushed by the Chinese army. An agreement was imposed on the Tibetan government in May of 1951, acknowledging sovereignty over Tibet but recognizing the Tibetan government's autonomy with respect to Tibet's internal affairs. As the Chinese consolidated their control, they repeatedly violated the treaty and open resistance to their rule grew.
By 1959, the situation had become dire in Tibet. Thousands of Tibetan refugees poured into western Tibet from the east, where Tibetan resistance fighters were engaged in open battle with the Chinese army. Massive demonstrations broke out in Lhasa, Tibet's capital, when rumors that the Dalai Lama's life was in danger began to circulate. Tenzin Gyatso, Tibet's 14th Dalai Lama, is the spiritual and political leader of Tibet. In 1959, he was only 24 years old. On March 10th 1959, hundreds of thousands of Tibetans massed around the Norbulingka Palace, the Dalai Lama's summer residence, to prevent him from attending an event to which the Chinese authorities had invited him. They feared he might be killed secretively. The demonstrators called for Tibetan independence and for Chinese forces to leave Tibet. When the situation became tense, the Dalai Lama fled under cover of darkness on March 17, 1959 to India, where he has lived since. Tens of thousands of Tibetans were killed by Chinese forces who broke up the mass protests.
Since 1959, Tibet has been solely under Chinese rule. The Tibetan people both inside Tibet and in exile long for the Dalai Lama to return to Tibet to resume his rightful place as Tibet's leader.
While the ultimate goal of Students for a Free Tibet is to help Tibetans regain their independent nation, we also work hard to end the atrocious violations of the Tibetan people's political, religious, cultural, social and economic rights by the Chinese government. However, it is important to bear in mind that we work in solidarity with the Tibetan people, who continue to struggle for the restoration of their country Tibet."
<a href='http://www.snowlionpub.com/search.php?in_item_id=566' target='_blank'>Tibetan chants</a>
When people like these are killed we all lose something.
Yes, it certainly is an unearthly sound. Once I listened to them for a while, I found they become quite peaceful.
Here's an interesting fact from "Healing Sounds by Jonathan GoldMan":
"Musicologists later determined that the bass note which the Gyuto monks chant is two octaves below middle C, vibrating at an astounding 75.5 cycles per second. The deepest range of an opera singer is closer to 150 cycles per second, nearly twice as high as the extraordinary bass of these monks."
Seriously though, I've never seen South Africa compared to Iraq under Saddam, especially on these boards. Do you have a link, or a comment/quote, or are you working from a "vibe" of people's understanding of your country?
Don't expect some people to change their perceptions of South Africa too quickly though, there are still people around who think that Australia is a penal colony where everyone says G'day every other minute and we all go wrestle crocs before we sit down to a shrimp from the barbie (funny thing is we don't even call them shrimp in Australia, but that's still the catchphrase...)
I feel your pain.
I'm German, and some people still believe that <a href='http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,325361,00.html' target='_blank'>there are Nazis in Germany</a>.
Oh wait...
Seriously though, I've never seen South Africa compared to Iraq under Saddam, especially on these boards. Do you have a link, or a comment/quote, or are you working from a "vibe" of people's understanding of your country?
Don't expect some people to change their perceptions of South Africa too quickly though, there are still people around who think that Australia is a penal colony where everyone says G'day every other minute and we all go wrestle crocs before we sit down to a shrimp from the barbie (funny thing is we don't even call them shrimp in Australia, but that's still the catchphrase...)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Economic Sanctions were one thing...but no cricket...that was just evil on your part <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Never been the same since Hansie Cronje though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's mostly just a vibe. But then there is the odd quote like this here and there:
I saw a reference to a quote in this post:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=84668&view=findpost&p=1317114' target='_blank'>second hand quote of dr d</a>
I suppose you are right about people's perceptions not changing overnight so to speak. You mean to tell me you've never even just thought about wrestling a croc though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ?
I feel your pain.
I'm German, and some people still believe that <a href='http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,325361,00.html' target='_blank'>there are Nazis in Germany</a>.
Oh wait... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are lunatics like neo-Nazi's in every country. I used to know some around here. Some of the smallest, most pathetic people I've ever met. However, in some countries they are more numerous than in others. I know that in Europe there is a decent sized underground movement that is very neo-Naziesque in its beliefs. It's by no means a majority, but it certainly isn't tiny either. I think it has to do with the fairly large Muslim immigration problem that France and Germany have, wherein the poor Muslim populations have increased dramatically over the past 5-7 years, resulting in the youth of native and immigrant communities to become hateful towards one another.
I feel your pain.
I'm German, and some people still believe that <a href='http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,325361,00.html' target='_blank'>there are Nazis in Germany</a>.
Oh wait... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Es tut mir leid <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Appreciate you voicing similar frustration about perceptions of your Country.
You're saying this isn't true? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> dreams... shattering...
There are no government mandated "white only" areas/establishments anymore. Those are a relic of the past. A restaurant owner can't declare his/her restaurant "white only" - it is illegal to do so now.
There used to be plenty of "slegs blankes" (which are the afrikaans words for "only whites") areas under apartheid. Black people were not allowed to live in white cities and had to have special work permits in order to work in a white city.
Those days are gone though. Here's a link to Nelson Mandela's inaugural address.
<a href='http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_2/mandela.html' target='_blank'>here</a>
He was the first black president of South Africa.
Now, having said all of this, the right wing still exists in South Africa. There could be some areas that are "whites only" in the sense that the inhabitants may not be exactly friendly towards black people.
I imagine this situation though is to be found in most countries in one form or another.
Apartheid is over. It is dead. It almost resulted in civil war but it is most certainly gone.
P.S. here's a link to some tourist type highlights from my birth-city of Pretoria.
<a href='http://www.virtualtourist.com/vt/21d613/4/' target='_blank'>Pretoria, South Africa</a>
"<a href='http://www.safrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/constitution/constitution.htm' target='_blank'>South African Constitution</a>
And an excerpt:
"The Constitution of South Africa
The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, was the result of a remarkably long, detailed and inclusive negotiation, difficult but determined, carried out with an acute awareness of the injustices of the country’s non-democratic past.
It is widely regarded as the most progressive constitution in the world, with a Bill of Rights second to none. "
Here's part of the bill of rights:
"
Equality
9. (1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.
(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.
<b>(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.
(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.</b>
(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair. "
You're saying this isn't true? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> dreams... shattering... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, OK, maybe it's just the shrimp being called something else over here. The other stuff is still true to an extent ->
I had prawns from a bbq just last night BUT DAMMIT IT WAS A SPECIAL OCCASION!
I'm sure some people still do wrestle crocs, one example being steve irwin.
I do actually say G'day every so often, so that's not too much of a myth.
We're not a penal colony anymore. We're a constitutional monarch... we promise...
<.<
>.>
Political apartheid is over, yes. However, the economic divide between black and white South Africans is still as wide as it was before 1994 and the recent market deregulations the ANC has put South Africa through has intensified this problem. Political equality was just the first step towards healing for black South Africans. Apartheid may be dead, but its effects will be felt for a long time.
Plus: What's up with neo-nazis being skinheads? I never got that. Have you seen 1 Nazi from WW2 without hair? Maybe you had new recruit haircuts like that, but pffft, last I checked Himmler and Hitler both had hair.
Plus: What's up with neo-nazis being skinheads? I never got that. Have you seen 1 Nazi from WW2 without hair? Maybe you had new recruit haircuts like that, but pffft, last I checked Himmler and Hitler both had hair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's a good link on <a href='http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/africa/lesotho/history.htm' target='_blank'>Lesotho</a>
Also, see this one about South Africa creating "<a href='http://www.worldstatesmen.org/South_African_homelands.html' target='_blank'>homelands</a>"
Political apartheid is over, yes. However, the economic divide between black and white South Africans is still as wide as it was before 1994 and the recent market deregulations the ANC has put South Africa through has intensified this problem. Political equality was just the first step towards healing for black South Africans. Apartheid may be dead, but its effects will be felt for a long time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed