Have you even played alien? Morphing into Fade and Onos cost resources. And any effective team won't need that many resources anyway. Every game I've played to the endgame the winning team has excess resources and the losing team can never get enough. That's just the way all RTS games play. You're whining about a non-issue. Subject = finished.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nimbus+Nov 11 2002, 01:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nimbus @ Nov 11 2002, 01:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it's a great feature but I think it's too strong right now. Think about it, at least half of the resources a team spends is spent on buildings and foundations. Think of all those resources; for the marines there's turrets, armories, research, portals, and all those other buildings. For aliens there's Hives and chambers. Aliens are still building only 3 hives, and marines only need so many buildings. These spendings DON'T increase with the amount of people that are in. So think about this example, say marines normally have 2 resources when player count is low, they spend 1 on buildings and 1 on weapons. Later more people join, now they get resources faster, they still only need to spend 1 on buildings, but now they get to spend <b>3</b> on weapons. Later even more people join, still, the marines only need 1 point for buildings, and now they get <b>5</b> points for weapons. So say a small game was 10 people, medium 20, and large 30. The resource speed scales that way, 10 is 1x, 20 is 2x, and 30 is 3x. My example shows that the budget for weapons goes like this: 10 is 1x, 20 is 3x, and 30 is 5x.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, please respond to this. I have played both sides extensively. I have no problem with the winning team have more resources. I do have a problem with the fact that a team only has to secure a couple nodes to keep resources high when there's a lot of people.
<!--QuoteBegin--(e)kent+Nov 13 2002, 01:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent @ Nov 13 2002, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you even played alien? Morphing into Fade and Onos cost resources. And any effective team won't need that many resources anyway. Every game I've played to the endgame the winning team has excess resources and the losing team can never get enough. That's just the way all RTS games play. You're whining about a non-issue. Subject = finished.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, actually I've played mostly as alien (only 3 times as marine to completion), since everyone seems to love the marines (this isn't as much of a problem NOW, but still is to some extent). It certainly does cost resources to morph into the fade and the onos. Your point is...? My point is that with the amount of resources the marines get in a large game, it is a bit more difficult to get an onos and a fade than a fully/partially equipped marine (about equivalent to the onos and fade). You say that "any effective team won't need that many resources anyway". Ridiculous. I doubt that you're skilled enough to take on a fully upgraded marine (say with an HMG and HA) with a skulk or lerk? How would you know if all the aliens on your team have an excess of resources? Sure, perhaps if you're a marine, then you would know. That's a preposterous comment to make...have *you* ever been an alien? Finally, you say "that's just the way all RTS games play." Are you on crack? (No offense. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) No, that's NOT the way all RTS games play. I'm sorry to say, but RTS games are not completely dependent upon resources. They involve tactical strategy as well. Heck, if the game was ONLy about collecting resources, we'd be playing something like that "LEGO: Rock Raiders" game for 5 year olds (please do not play this agme, it will induce crying - my li'l cousins have it).
And that's my opinion. Sorry if I came across as brash, but you seem a little haughty and overzealous there... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Oooh, I should mention as well, that perhaps my inexperience as a marine has not shown me a side to the marines that has them in a limited-resources environment...
Well first off my post was in response to Nimbus's, but:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->marines in a limited-resources environment... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you stating that marines get more resources than aliens? That's not true. It might seem that way because theirs are pooled and aliens' are divided amongst the team. I don't know your situation but make sure that there aren't too many gorges on your team. Gorges get more resources than the other aliens (because they have to spend more), so if your team is half gorges then your attackers aren't going to get what they need.
The fact that you don't see RTS games as "dependant upon resources" says more to me about how good you are at playing RTS games than anything else <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . Think about it. Any "tactical strategy" (which is a non-concept) in a RTS involves either planning for grabbing resources or planning for denying said resources to the enemy. I personally haven't played more than a couple games on servers over 16 people (I'll try it out tonight), but I have quite a bit of experience as commander and I can tell you, after 1.01, the first 15 minutes of a game are CRITICAL to the marines because of limited-resources.
Actually, after thinking about it, it would seem to be more critical the more resources there are, because it makes it easier for the enemy to build hives quickly. I can't overstate this: when the aliens get three hives, the marines have lost, no matter how long it takes.
No, I'm saying that I've never been in a situation where the marines lack resources for very long (i.e. you can afford everything almost as soon as you need it with a wait of maybe a MINUTE, at max.).
They have all responded to your point in case you haven't noticed, and to add to the reasons i will only state this: Resources scale not only depending on how many players you have, but also depending on how many players you DONT have.
Sounds crazy doesnt it? NS has a neat little feature where the team with the least amount of people gets a bonus of RPs depending on how many people they have less compared to the other team. This gives people on the uneven team a fighting chance to still beat the opposing team.
Now, i might be wrong, perhaps there is a bug, but it seems to me that if youre playing ona big server and have uneven teams, thats gonna get you a lot of resources...
Yeah I've seen +4 - and +3 pop up quite a few times. I thought it was just an upgrade on the resource...or...something. It was my team, so I wasn't complaining.
my response: I like medium paced games <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
but anyways.... I feel its pretty well balanced. I jsut played as a marine we were always short on resources (of course we were constantly building) but anyways... This game is pretty dammn even, Ive been on winning teams on both sides numerous times. Complaining about resources, towers, guns will not make this game better. which ever team demonstrates better teamwork should win.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nimbus+Nov 13 2002, 08:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nimbus @ Nov 13 2002, 08:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Nimbus+Nov 11 2002, 01:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nimbus @ Nov 11 2002, 01:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it's a great feature but I think it's too strong right now. Think about it, at least half of the resources a team spends is spent on buildings and foundations. Think of all those resources; for the marines there's turrets, armories, research, portals, and all those other buildings. For aliens there's Hives and chambers. Aliens are still building only 3 hives, and marines only need so many buildings. These spendings DON'T increase with the amount of people that are in. So think about this example, say marines normally have 2 resources when player count is low, they spend 1 on buildings and 1 on weapons. Later more people join, now they get resources faster, they still only need to spend 1 on buildings, but now they get to spend <b>3</b> on weapons. Later even more people join, still, the marines only need 1 point for buildings, and now they get <b>5</b> points for weapons. So say a small game was 10 people, medium 20, and large 30. The resource speed scales that way, 10 is 1x, 20 is 2x, and 30 is 3x. My example shows that the budget for weapons goes like this: 10 is 1x, 20 is 3x, and 30 is 5x.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, please respond to this. I have played both sides extensively. I have no problem with the winning team have more resources. I do have a problem with the fact that a team only has to secure a couple nodes to keep resources high when there's a lot of people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, so the marines don't have enough RP's to deck out their entire quad. The aliens, on the other hand, are all well contented.
Lets test this out. Lets say there's a 10 node map. Each team has 5 nodes, and there are 20 people playing.
Now, 5 nodes, with 20 people. Under your system, each team is getting 5*3, every 10 seconds. Thats 90 RP's every minute. That's enough for 2 Shotguns and 2 sets of Heavy Armor, nevermind building. This is every minute, mind you.
Ok, now the aliens get 90 RP's a minute, with, say, 2 Gorges. That's 14 shares, which means that the normal player is getting about 6 RP's a minute, and gorges are getting 18. That's one OT a minute, for each builder, or a hive every 4.5 minutes.
At 6 RP's a minute, you're giving each person on their team a lerk every 5.5 minutes. Now, in that same 5.5 minutes, the marines can drop 11 HA/Boomstick combos. Considering the average longevity of a HA marine is well over 5:30, any RP's after this purchase go right to the stockpile for the next raid. The aliens, on the other hand, have 8 lerks, 2 gorges, and 2 hives building. Any fool knows that a lerk team against 9 HA marines with shotguns stands the chance of a snowball in hell. And not a normal snowball either. Rather, one of those sloppy ones you pull out of the road, the kind that never ever freeze. Marines win.
Anyway, so marines pwn aliens. Lets have the same scenario under the current scaling.
5*2=10 RP's, 60 RP's a minute for either team. That means that with 2 builders, either one can set up a hive every 7 minutes. A lerk every 8:15. Tha marines, on the other hand, if they wanna deck out all 9 members with HA and a Boomstick, that's 45 RP's per marine, which comes out to 405 RP's, which takes 6:45 between when you can deck out the squad. 8.25-6.75=Marines win by 1:30. Under your system, this decreased to marines winning the RP race by 1:00 even. A bit more even at first glance, marines only get a 1:00 head start, but WAIT! The hives are also getting started much quicker. In fact, 2:30 quicker, under your system. Welcome to Xenocide hell. Alien pwnage.
But with your 5x scaling, it turns into 150 RP's a minute with 30 people on the server. Thus, marine team decked out in 3:20, and all the aliens can be lerks in 3:20 seconds as well. They both tie the RP race... except for the fact that the Aliens now have 2 hives building at the end of those same 3:20. Hello spore cloud, and xenocide hell. Aliens win again. The system you put out to help the marines, only bites them in the rear.
Well that's all fine and well legionared and rico, but you still aren't understanding my point.
Here, let me restate it for you since quoting what I said before isn't helping.
How much money would you say you spend on buildings? 2/3? half? 1/3? Each one of those is quite a signifigant amount.
Now, how many armory's do you need at the marine spawn in a small game? One. In a big game? One
How many infantry portals do you need in a small game? Usually two, maybe three. In a big game? Usually two or three.
How many prototype labs, and arms labs do you need in a small game? One of each. In a big game? One of each. How many times do you need to research equipment in a small game? One time per research. In a big game? One time per research.
How many turret factories, resource nodes, phase gates, and whatnot do you need at each outpost. One of each in both small and big games.
Even with turrets, the need for buildings doesn't really increase with the player count. This may be more subjective, but I believe that 25 turrets in an outpost will accomplish just as much as 6. As long as the turrets are placed intelligently it doesn't matter. If the aliens assault with fades that base is going down regardless of the turret amount if it doesn't have marine backup.
Now for aliens it's even more clear. You can only get 3 hives, and you can only have a certain amount of chambers in a given area REGARDLESS of the amount of players.
Now the cost of building all these buildings is quite substantial. It's very balanced in small games when resources nodes give +1.
But as I showed above, building costs don't nescessarily increase with playercount. So this gives an improportional amount of resources in larger games. Go look at my previous post and see this.
300 resources? forget it. I played on a game (as marines) where our team had <b>~6000</b> resources at the end. It was crazy. Admitted, we did control most of resource nodes, but still. Oh, and the server said it was 1.1.
And by the way Legionarred, I never said it was <b>MY</b> system, I said that that was the way it was in game, and I didn't say it was X resources every 10 seconds, I said it was X resources every 4 seconds, I don't know where you got those crazy ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nimbus+Nov 14 2002, 12:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nimbus @ Nov 14 2002, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well that's all fine and well legionared and rico, but you still aren't understanding my point.
Here, let me restate it for you since quoting what I said before isn't helping.
How much money would you say you spend on buildings? 2/3? half? 1/3? Each one of those is quite a signifigant amount.
Now, how many armory's do you need at the marine spawn in a small game? One. In a big game? One
How many infantry portals do you need in a small game? Usually two, maybe three. In a big game? Usually two or three.
How many prototype labs, and arms labs do you need in a small game? One of each. In a big game? One of each. How many times do you need to research equipment in a small game? One time per research. In a big game? One time per research.
How many turret factories, resource nodes, phase gates, and whatnot do you need at each outpost. One of each in both small and big games.
Even with turrets, the need for buildings doesn't really increase with the player count. This may be more subjective, but I believe that 25 turrets in an outpost will accomplish just as much as 6. As long as the turrets are placed intelligently it doesn't matter. If the aliens assault with fades that base is going down regardless of the turret amount if it doesn't have marine backup.
Now for aliens it's even more clear. You can only get 3 hives, and you can only have a certain amount of chambers in a given area REGARDLESS of the amount of players.
Now the cost of building all these buildings is quite substantial. It's very balanced in small games when resources nodes give +1.
But as I showed above, building costs don't nescessarily increase with playercount. So this gives an improportional amount of resources in larger games. Go look at my previous post and see this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What exactly are you trying to say? Both teams will spend X and Y on building resources, no matter the number of players (maybe different with regard to turrets, that's too variable to consider).
After that both teams stockpile resources for upgrades/evolving or equipment.
So what is the argument again? I don't really know if you are trying to say one side is having it harder than the other or not...
The argument is that this gives too many resources to larger games.
The game is balanced on the amount of resources the teams get. If both teams got a billion resources per tick per node, would you say that was balanced because it was even for both teams? Of course not, too many resources unbalances the economy. It trivializes the loss of equipment and buildings as you can easily replace them with the large amount of resources you have.
There are many arguments how extra resources could give one team the advantage. It could be said that this gives marines the advantage since they have better control of their resources (all in one pool).
There's a <i>very</i> simple reason marines have a huge stockpile of resources in the end. Ok, picture this, semi-late in the game, aliens have 3 hives and marines are fully researched. If an alien what to upgrade himself, to an Onos for example, that's 76 resources. Not just 76 resources, but 76 resources <i>whenever he feels like upgrading himself</i>, or, in other words, everytime he respawns if he has enough resources. Even if he chooses to be a Fade, that 50 resources. Marines on the other hand, would require only 43 resources (I hope, don't play comm much because of low FPS) per player for HMG + HA. Not only that, but thay have to wait for the comm to give it to them, if at all. When I play marine I'm running out to attack with LMG more often then anything else even if the team can afford better weapons, better to be out fighting with something then base camping and complaining. So both teams get equal resources, but the aliens spend more per player more often.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Nov 11 2002, 06:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Nov 11 2002, 06:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The resources scale to the number of players. The more players on your team, the more resources you'll get from each "tick" from a resource node. I would expect to see +2 from each node when there are 5-10 players, and +3 with more then 10 players. This is especially needed so aliens have options, but also so the commander has points to supply ammo, health and weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tell me this, then. Is the entire marine team supposed to have HA and HMGs, and tons of turrets?
If it's not supposed to have those things I have screenshots (about 30) of evidence that can point to something still being broken. Because they DO all have HA and HMG and lots and lots and lots of turrets.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gibby+Nov 15 2002, 10:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gibby @ Nov 15 2002, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Nov 11 2002, 06:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Nov 11 2002, 06:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The resources scale to the number of players. The more players on your team, the more resources you'll get from each "tick" from a resource node. I would expect to see +2 from each node when there are 5-10 players, and +3 with more then 10 players. This is especially needed so aliens have options, but also so the commander has points to supply ammo, health and weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tell me this, then. Is the entire marine team supposed to have HA and HMGs, and tons of turrets?
If it's not supposed to have those things I have screenshots (about 30) of evidence that can point to something still being broken. Because they DO all have HA and HMG and lots and lots and lots of turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're just not resource controlling then.
And, why is all HA & lots of turrets a problem? :/ Turret clusters can be neutralised with skulks, it's a walkover with Fades and dozens of turrets can be cleared with just 1 Onos. Where's the issue?
EDIT - just because an entire team has HA, doesn't mean they have lots of resources. I played a private 5 on 5 just tonight in which we the Marines had only 2 resource nodes. At one point we had 5 HA's, 3 with HMGs, 1 shotgun and 1 GL, all 5 of us with Welders (we would attack without a commander to max firepower). It just took time to get there, build one HA, protect & harass to draw off the aliens, build another 2 minutes later, and so on.
An alien team with the individual resources could evolve 5 Fades in far less time, Fades being far far superior to the 4 LA's we still had at the time. So again, where's the problem?
I actually think the resource balance is somewhat in the Aliens favour, not the Marines. If Marines hold 3 res points, the commanders pool gets 3 res per tick iirc? If there are 5 aliens and they get 3 res points, that's 15 collective res per tick. The pro's and con's of individual vs pool are arguable until the sun goes down, but when lots of res are available it's definately in Aliens favour.
<!--QuoteBegin--Petru+Nov 15 2002, 10:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Petru @ Nov 15 2002, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I actually think the resource balance is somewhat in the Aliens favour, not the Marines. If Marines hold 3 res points, the commanders pool gets 3 res per tick iirc? If there are 5 aliens and they get 3 res points, that's 15 collective res per tick. The pro's and con's of individual vs pool are arguable until the sun goes down, but when lots of res are available it's definately in Aliens favour.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The res points are divided amoung the aliens, not multiplied by them. In your example 3 of the 5 aliens would each get 1 RP, next tick the other 2 would each get 1 and one the the first 3 would get another. Aliens seem to gain resources very slowly compared to marines.
The total amount of resources both teams get will always be equal if they have the same number of nodes and players.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Nov 11 2002, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Nov 11 2002, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The resources scale to the number of players. The more players on your team, the more resources you'll get from each "tick" from a resource node. I would expect to see +2 from each node when there are 5-10 players, and +3 with more then 10 players. This is especially needed so aliens have options, but also so the commander has points to supply ammo, health and weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> awesome stuff,and i was worried that the more player the more poorer + the more stretched the res will be for a team <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nimbus+Nov 16 2002, 12:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nimbus @ Nov 16 2002, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ugh... It seems that almost everyone that replies doesn't listen to the topic but instead goes off on their own little tangent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> to respond to you Nimbus, I don't think there's any problem with resources. You always have to little in the beginning and tons in the end, works the same way in Starcraft and you don't see people complaining about that. The aliens could have a couple 'k resources at the end of a long game, it's just that the game doesn't display a 'team total resources' for them.
As long as both teams get a fair (equal if teams are equal and have equal nodes) and reasonably reasonable (ie. not 50 per tick or anything) then it's fine, which is how it is now. As far as marines having all their resources in one pool, that's a good point, and I think it would be good if the aliens could transfer resources amoungst themselves, limited like you have to be right near the person to do it. After all, there's no reason for units in a hive collective to be greedy.
The resources are currently working properly. The amount of resources you get from a node depends on how big your team is. The more players on your team, the more resources you draw from the node. This has to be done to make the game's pace right for big games.
Comments
Once again, please respond to this. I have played both sides extensively. I have no problem with the winning team have more resources. I do have a problem with the fact that a team only has to secure a couple nodes to keep resources high when there's a lot of people.
Yes, actually I've played mostly as alien (only 3 times as marine to completion), since everyone seems to love the marines (this isn't as much of a problem NOW, but still is to some extent). It certainly does cost resources to morph into the fade and the onos. Your point is...? My point is that with the amount of resources the marines get in a large game, it is a bit more difficult to get an onos and a fade than a fully/partially equipped marine (about equivalent to the onos and fade). You say that "any effective team won't need that many resources anyway". Ridiculous. I doubt that you're skilled enough to take on a fully upgraded marine (say with an HMG and HA) with a skulk or lerk? How would you know if all the aliens on your team have an excess of resources? Sure, perhaps if you're a marine, then you would know. That's a preposterous comment to make...have *you* ever been an alien? Finally, you say "that's just the way all RTS games play." Are you on crack? (No offense. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) No, that's NOT the way all RTS games play. I'm sorry to say, but RTS games are not completely dependent upon resources. They involve tactical strategy as well. Heck, if the game was ONLy about collecting resources, we'd be playing something like that "LEGO: Rock Raiders" game for 5 year olds (please do not play this agme, it will induce crying - my li'l cousins have it).
And that's my opinion. Sorry if I came across as brash, but you seem a little haughty and overzealous there... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Oooh, I should mention as well, that perhaps my inexperience as a marine has not shown me a side to the marines that has them in a limited-resources environment...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->marines in a limited-resources environment... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you stating that marines get more resources than aliens? That's not true. It might seem that way because theirs are pooled and aliens' are divided amongst the team. I don't know your situation but make sure that there aren't too many gorges on your team. Gorges get more resources than the other aliens (because they have to spend more), so if your team is half gorges then your attackers aren't going to get what they need.
The fact that you don't see RTS games as "dependant upon resources" says more to me about how good you are at playing RTS games than anything else <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . Think about it. Any "tactical strategy" (which is a non-concept) in a RTS involves either planning for grabbing resources or planning for denying said resources to the enemy. I personally haven't played more than a couple games on servers over 16 people (I'll try it out tonight), but I have quite a bit of experience as commander and I can tell you, after 1.01, the first 15 minutes of a game are CRITICAL to the marines because of limited-resources.
Actually, after thinking about it, it would seem to be more critical the more resources there are, because it makes it easier for the enemy to build hives quickly. I can't overstate this: when the aliens get three hives, the marines have lost, no matter how long it takes.
<a href='http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?tactics' target='_blank'>tactics</a>
<a href='http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?strategy' target='_blank'>strategy</a>
Sounds crazy doesnt it? NS has a neat little feature where the team with the least amount of people gets a bonus of RPs depending on how many people they have less compared to the other team. This gives people on the uneven team a fighting chance to still beat the opposing team.
Now, i might be wrong, perhaps there is a bug, but it seems to me that if youre playing ona big server and have uneven teams, thats gonna get you a lot of resources...
my response: I like medium paced games <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
but anyways.... I feel its pretty well balanced. I jsut played as a marine we were always short on resources (of course we were constantly building) but anyways... This game is pretty dammn even, Ive been on winning teams on both sides numerous times. Complaining about resources, towers, guns will not make this game better. which ever team demonstrates better teamwork should win.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Once again, please respond to this. I have played both sides extensively. I have no problem with the winning team have more resources. I do have a problem with the fact that a team only has to secure a couple nodes to keep resources high when there's a lot of people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so the marines don't have enough RP's to deck out their entire quad. The aliens, on the other hand, are all well contented.
Lets test this out. Lets say there's a 10 node map. Each team has 5 nodes, and there are 20 people playing.
Now, 5 nodes, with 20 people. Under your system, each team is getting 5*3, every 10 seconds. Thats 90 RP's every minute. That's enough for 2 Shotguns and 2 sets of Heavy Armor, nevermind building. This is every minute, mind you.
Ok, now the aliens get 90 RP's a minute, with, say, 2 Gorges. That's 14 shares, which means that the normal player is getting about 6 RP's a minute, and gorges are getting 18. That's one OT a minute, for each builder, or a hive every 4.5 minutes.
At 6 RP's a minute, you're giving each person on their team a lerk every 5.5 minutes. Now, in that same 5.5 minutes, the marines can drop 11 HA/Boomstick combos. Considering the average longevity of a HA marine is well over 5:30, any RP's after this purchase go right to the stockpile for the next raid. The aliens, on the other hand, have 8 lerks, 2 gorges, and 2 hives building. Any fool knows that a lerk team against 9 HA marines with shotguns stands the chance of a snowball in hell. And not a normal snowball either. Rather, one of those sloppy ones you pull out of the road, the kind that never ever freeze. Marines win.
Anyway, so marines pwn aliens. Lets have the same scenario under the current scaling.
5*2=10 RP's, 60 RP's a minute for either team. That means that with 2 builders, either one can set up a hive every 7 minutes. A lerk every 8:15.
Tha marines, on the other hand, if they wanna deck out all 9 members with HA and a Boomstick, that's 45 RP's per marine, which comes out to 405 RP's, which takes 6:45 between when you can deck out the squad. 8.25-6.75=Marines win by 1:30. Under your system, this decreased to marines winning the RP race by 1:00 even. A bit more even at first glance, marines only get a 1:00 head start, but WAIT! The hives are also getting started much quicker. In fact, 2:30 quicker, under your system. Welcome to Xenocide hell. Alien pwnage.
But with your 5x scaling, it turns into 150 RP's a minute with 30 people on the server. Thus, marine team decked out in 3:20, and all the aliens can be lerks in 3:20 seconds as well. They both tie the RP race... except for the fact that the Aliens now have 2 hives building at the end of those same 3:20. Hello spore cloud, and xenocide hell. Aliens win again. The system you put out to help the marines, only bites them in the rear.
Bottom line... It's fine.
Here, let me restate it for you since quoting what I said before isn't helping.
How much money would you say you spend on buildings? 2/3? half? 1/3? Each one of those is quite a signifigant amount.
Now, how many armory's do you need at the marine spawn in a small game? One. In a big game? One
How many infantry portals do you need in a small game? Usually two, maybe three. In a big game? Usually two or three.
How many prototype labs, and arms labs do you need in a small game? One of each. In a big game? One of each. How many times do you need to research equipment in a small game? One time per research. In a big game? One time per research.
How many turret factories, resource nodes, phase gates, and whatnot do you need at each outpost. One of each in both small and big games.
Even with turrets, the need for buildings doesn't really increase with the player count. This may be more subjective, but I believe that 25 turrets in an outpost will accomplish just as much as 6. As long as the turrets are placed intelligently it doesn't matter. If the aliens assault with fades that base is going down regardless of the turret amount if it doesn't have marine backup.
Now for aliens it's even more clear. You can only get 3 hives, and you can only have a certain amount of chambers in a given area REGARDLESS of the amount of players.
Now the cost of building all these buildings is quite substantial. It's very balanced in small games when resources nodes give +1.
But as I showed above, building costs don't nescessarily increase with playercount. So this gives an improportional amount of resources in larger games. Go look at my previous post and see this.
Here, let me restate it for you since quoting what I said before isn't helping.
How much money would you say you spend on buildings? 2/3? half? 1/3? Each one of those is quite a signifigant amount.
Now, how many armory's do you need at the marine spawn in a small game? One. In a big game? One
How many infantry portals do you need in a small game? Usually two, maybe three. In a big game? Usually two or three.
How many prototype labs, and arms labs do you need in a small game? One of each. In a big game? One of each. How many times do you need to research equipment in a small game? One time per research. In a big game? One time per research.
How many turret factories, resource nodes, phase gates, and whatnot do you need at each outpost. One of each in both small and big games.
Even with turrets, the need for buildings doesn't really increase with the player count. This may be more subjective, but I believe that 25 turrets in an outpost will accomplish just as much as 6. As long as the turrets are placed intelligently it doesn't matter. If the aliens assault with fades that base is going down regardless of the turret amount if it doesn't have marine backup.
Now for aliens it's even more clear. You can only get 3 hives, and you can only have a certain amount of chambers in a given area REGARDLESS of the amount of players.
Now the cost of building all these buildings is quite substantial. It's very balanced in small games when resources nodes give +1.
But as I showed above, building costs don't nescessarily increase with playercount. So this gives an improportional amount of resources in larger games. Go look at my previous post and see this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What exactly are you trying to say? Both teams will spend X and Y on building resources, no matter the number of players (maybe different with regard to turrets, that's too variable to consider).
After that both teams stockpile resources for upgrades/evolving or equipment.
So what is the argument again? I don't really know if you are trying to say one side is having it harder than the other or not...
The game is balanced on the amount of resources the teams get. If both teams got a billion resources per tick per node, would you say that was balanced because it was even for both teams? Of course not, too many resources unbalances the economy. It trivializes the loss of equipment and buildings as you can easily replace them with the large amount of resources you have.
There are many arguments how extra resources could give one team the advantage. It could be said that this gives marines the advantage since they have better control of their resources (all in one pool).
Tell me this, then. Is the entire marine team supposed to have HA and HMGs, and tons of turrets?
If it's not supposed to have those things I have screenshots (about 30) of evidence that can point to something still being broken. Because they DO all have HA and HMG and lots and lots and lots of turrets.
Tell me this, then. Is the entire marine team supposed to have HA and HMGs, and tons of turrets?
If it's not supposed to have those things I have screenshots (about 30) of evidence that can point to something still being broken. Because they DO all have HA and HMG and lots and lots and lots of turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're just not resource controlling then.
And, why is all HA & lots of turrets a problem? :/ Turret clusters can be neutralised with skulks, it's a walkover with Fades and dozens of turrets can be cleared with just 1 Onos. Where's the issue?
EDIT - just because an entire team has HA, doesn't mean they have lots of resources. I played a private 5 on 5 just tonight in which we the Marines had only 2 resource nodes. At one point we had 5 HA's, 3 with HMGs, 1 shotgun and 1 GL, all 5 of us with Welders (we would attack without a commander to max firepower). It just took time to get there, build one HA, protect & harass to draw off the aliens, build another 2 minutes later, and so on.
An alien team with the individual resources could evolve 5 Fades in far less time, Fades being far far superior to the 4 LA's we still had at the time. So again, where's the problem?
I actually think the resource balance is somewhat in the Aliens favour, not the Marines. If Marines hold 3 res points, the commanders pool gets 3 res per tick iirc? If there are 5 aliens and they get 3 res points, that's 15 collective res per tick. The pro's and con's of individual vs pool are arguable until the sun goes down, but when lots of res are available it's definately in Aliens favour.
The res points are divided amoung the aliens, not multiplied by them. In your example 3 of the 5 aliens would each get 1 RP, next tick the other 2 would each get 1 and one the the first 3 would get another. Aliens seem to gain resources very slowly compared to marines.
The total amount of resources both teams get will always be equal if they have the same number of nodes and players.
awesome stuff,and i was worried that the more player the more poorer + the more stretched the res will be for a team <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
to respond to you Nimbus, I don't think there's any problem with resources. You always have to little in the beginning and tons in the end, works the same way in Starcraft and you don't see people complaining about that. The aliens could have a couple 'k resources at the end of a long game, it's just that the game doesn't display a 'team total resources' for them.
As long as both teams get a fair (equal if teams are equal and have equal nodes) and reasonably reasonable (ie. not 50 per tick or anything) then it's fine, which is how it is now. As far as marines having all their resources in one pool, that's a good point, and I think it would be good if the aliens could transfer resources amoungst themselves, limited like you have to be right near the person to do it. After all, there's no reason for units in a hive collective to be greedy.