Intellectual Property
Infinitum
Anime Encyclopedia Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1111Members, Constellation
Anime Encyclopedia Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1111Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Read before posting models</div> It's still early days for the NS model community and already a few instances of intellectual property infringement have started to propagate themselves in this section. So I'm here to comment and clarify a few things.
Copying someones elses intellectual property is BAD.This is called plagarism and you can go to court and get sued for it.
It does not matter if it is a model, a drawing, a concept, a map, some sounds or anything that someone else has already done, trademarked and copyrighted. You are stealing their hardwork and I personally hate to see someone get ripped off in the mod community.
That said, IF you get clearance from the owner of whatever it is you want to use you are then required to give credit to them and you a free of any legal complications. If you don't get clearance most companies are gonna get pretty ticked off at you and are gonna tell you to stop distrobuting it and/or stop working on it. Need I mention what happened with the Q3 mod Bid For Power when they used Dragonball Z characters without clearance? Funimation stepped in with lawsuit in hand and told them to remove all characters and reference to the DBZ franchised that they had licensed. Rather than get sued the BFP Team complied to the demands of Funimation and the mod continued along its merry way.
No clearance = don't think about releasing it unless your prepared to face a lawsuit.
Think about it, if you created the worlds greatest model, released it and 2 seconds later someone has copied it and claimed it as theirs you'd be pretty **obscenity** off wouldn't you? Even if they did credit you in their release info file and they didn't get clearance I'd still be ticked off that someone has used MY PERSONAL work without permission.
Here is a list of steps you should take before you release your model or whatever:
1.) Contact the original author of whatever it is you want to use. Most corporations will be hard to deal with, but individuals will more often than not be glad to give you clearance. If you don't, don't release it. Play it safe. (This includes reskins, model conversions, totally new models base on existing works, etc)
2.) Don't EVER try selling someone elses work. Instant lawsuit.
3.) Don't claim someone elses work is your own, this is plagarism and you can be sued.
4.) ALWAYS include a text file with your model. If I find a kick arse model I'd like to know the authors name, if he has a website, who else worked with him, etc
5.) Give credit where credit is due. For example if a guy helped you out on your model for even a few minutes just give a "Thanks to Bob for the model help" in the text file.
I of course can't stop you from releasing anything, I am mearly informing you of how a model forum SHOULD work. The Day of Defeat model forum got locked down months ago with a big **obscenity** fight with a lot of plagarising accusations flying around and each individual model release thread was locked down and checked individually for anything that breached someone elses intellectual property. Don't let this forum become a POW camp, play it safe and for gods sake get some clearance!
Don't be making the admins start locking threads left and right guys.
Copying someones elses intellectual property is BAD.This is called plagarism and you can go to court and get sued for it.
It does not matter if it is a model, a drawing, a concept, a map, some sounds or anything that someone else has already done, trademarked and copyrighted. You are stealing their hardwork and I personally hate to see someone get ripped off in the mod community.
That said, IF you get clearance from the owner of whatever it is you want to use you are then required to give credit to them and you a free of any legal complications. If you don't get clearance most companies are gonna get pretty ticked off at you and are gonna tell you to stop distrobuting it and/or stop working on it. Need I mention what happened with the Q3 mod Bid For Power when they used Dragonball Z characters without clearance? Funimation stepped in with lawsuit in hand and told them to remove all characters and reference to the DBZ franchised that they had licensed. Rather than get sued the BFP Team complied to the demands of Funimation and the mod continued along its merry way.
No clearance = don't think about releasing it unless your prepared to face a lawsuit.
Think about it, if you created the worlds greatest model, released it and 2 seconds later someone has copied it and claimed it as theirs you'd be pretty **obscenity** off wouldn't you? Even if they did credit you in their release info file and they didn't get clearance I'd still be ticked off that someone has used MY PERSONAL work without permission.
Here is a list of steps you should take before you release your model or whatever:
1.) Contact the original author of whatever it is you want to use. Most corporations will be hard to deal with, but individuals will more often than not be glad to give you clearance. If you don't, don't release it. Play it safe. (This includes reskins, model conversions, totally new models base on existing works, etc)
2.) Don't EVER try selling someone elses work. Instant lawsuit.
3.) Don't claim someone elses work is your own, this is plagarism and you can be sued.
4.) ALWAYS include a text file with your model. If I find a kick arse model I'd like to know the authors name, if he has a website, who else worked with him, etc
5.) Give credit where credit is due. For example if a guy helped you out on your model for even a few minutes just give a "Thanks to Bob for the model help" in the text file.
I of course can't stop you from releasing anything, I am mearly informing you of how a model forum SHOULD work. The Day of Defeat model forum got locked down months ago with a big **obscenity** fight with a lot of plagarising accusations flying around and each individual model release thread was locked down and checked individually for anything that breached someone elses intellectual property. Don't let this forum become a POW camp, play it safe and for gods sake get some clearance!
Don't be making the admins start locking threads left and right guys.
Comments
people know what is right and what is wrong. their is no community at this point. only people.
There's also no reason this shouldn't be here, it's a warning, he hasn't really expresesd any opinions here, so don't go assuming anything.
Besides, he's right.
I'm only stating the law and what happens when you plagarise someones elses work. I obviously can't stop anyone from releasing anything they want, I've mearly drawn the proverbial line in the sand so model makers know if they've crossed it.
I'm all for custom models, I just don't like seeing people getting ripped off for their hard work.
This is the very very early days of the model making community and I'm just posting this so people know whats going on straight off the bat. If you dislike me because I'm mearly giving you information that may stop you getting in trouble with gaming companies, so be it. Stay ignorant and see how you'll fair when you push that line a little too far.
People are making custom things for the benefit and enjoyment of video gamers (custom things as, artwork, map, models, skins, etc.) What do they get for releasing that _______? I dunno, maybe a little thanks, a little congratulations for all your hard work. Money? AHHAHAHAH, I laugh at that thought.
I think many people would realize what custom model or art work, etc. originated from. I'm pretty sure that you could post a picture of something, and at least one person would know where it came from.
The people of Funimation are greedy cowards who were too scared about the possiblities of the BFP mod and made rash decisions.
Giving thanks and noting the source for your inspiration is a good thing. But who here will ever read a "ReadMe" file with a list of thanks? Simply put: no one cares...
Just shutup about this IP **obscenity** and stop trying to be a doo-gooder.
Lets take this too the extreme then shall we. For my example, the Mona Lisa. It is an extremely popular piece of art work.
What happens when I make a copy of it? I now have an exact copy of the Mona Lisa hanging in my room, now what happens when I open up my room to the public and claim it to be the Mona Lisa? I made it even more popular, so I must be doing the right thing! One person who came to look at my copy of the Mona Lisa happened to own the original (This is an example alright...) I get asked to remove it, but why should I remove it? I'm making it even more popular for him! Heaven forbid I charge $1 a look at it! I would be slapped with a lawsuit quicker than I could nade a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO Funimation was a little quick to throw in the law suit. But thats just my opinion. They weren't making a profit out of the mod were they? As far as my knowledge goes, no: they did not.
The people of Funimation are greedy cowards who were too scared about the possiblities of the BFP mod and made rash decisions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funimation were well within their rights to request the removal of the DBZ characters from the BFP mod. They obtained the license legally for it and are legally entitled to do everything within their power to protect their investment. Sure it was a free mod, but if I'm getting access to something that another company owns and I'm using it without permission for free and the company isn't seeing any royalties from its usage, I would take steps to get it removed. Of course they are greedy, it's all about money to begin with. Someone just giving away a game of characters that THEY have licensed and not seeing one cent of royalty fees would be stupid. They did the right thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People are making custom things for the benefit and enjoyment of video gamers (custom things as, artwork, map, models, skins, etc.) What do they get for releasing that _______? I dunno, maybe a little thanks, a little congratulations for all your hard work. Money? AHHAHAHAH, I laugh at that thought. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see what is so funny. Mappers who worked on CS maps are now employed by VALVe and are working on Condition Zero. They are now getting paid to do new maps for some older works they did. From doing those maps they get industry kudos/recognition and now they are employed. So what happens when I rip them off hmm? More power to them for getting hired for their free work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think many people would realize what custom model or art work, etc. originated from. I'm pretty sure that you could post a picture of something, and at least one person would know where it came from.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course most people will, what happens when one of those people looking at this new model happens to work for the video game company Modeller X just ripped off by not getting proper clearance? I'm sure he would be contacted pretty soon to remove the model.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Giving thanks and noting the source for your inspiration is a good thing. But who here will ever read a "ReadMe" file with a list of thanks? Simply put: no one cares...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read the file, it gives me information about how long it took, who was involved, maybe a contact email or 2 if they want to collaborate on a project, hell the guy may have a website I can visit to check out some of his other works. I'm also sure the modeller cares, because he took the time to put that file there.
SovKhan and Evintos, you both have the wrong outlook here. You gotta do everything within your power to cover your butt so you don't tempt fate with the big bad gaming companies.
Ah! The Mona Lisa (its creepy how the eyes follow you...) But anyways, you're making a false statement about the authenticity of the painting. If you were to have a copy of the Mona Lisa, stating its a copy and not the original, and have people come look at it everyday; I see no problem whatsoever. The problem with your example started with you claiming it to be the original.
I can give you another example using the Mona Lisa. My art class has a huge amount of books. Most if not all have a picture of the Mona Lisa and probably about 170 students looks at that picture once everyday in school. Would you suggest to the owner of the Mona Lisa to have the books destroyed or something? Why go to the actual thing when you can stare at it in a cheap $20 book?
Once a model gets posted, there'd be downloads instantly. So even if the video game company contacted that modeler about one of his/her copied model, people would already have a copy and eventually share it with whoever wants it.
Last note before I go back to playin Natural Selection: Ok so the Modeler might actually care about whoever reads the txt file, but its obvious that no one likes to read things. Probably 99% (That is a very very rough guess) of people never read instruction manuals if they know the basics. Sure if they get some new equipment they might glance over it, but most likely people will tinker around with something until its working correctly.
Final Note: (This is actually the last, cause it uses the word "Final") How would the big companies ever find out who actually infringed on the copyright and ownership of whatever thing it is?
The people of Funimation are greedy cowards who were too scared about the possiblities of the BFP mod and made rash decisions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did they lead with a lawsuit or a cease and desist? There's a big difference between the two, and odds are that a large corporation would fire off the latter before trying to get involved in the former.
Contrary to popular belief, corporations don't simply enforce their copyrights and trademarks to be big, greedy bullies-- they must actively protect them, or they risk losing them due to dilution-- which means potentially losing millions of dollars.
For example-- and this isn't <i>entirely</i> analagous, because it deals with trademark law (I'm foggy on how all of these interact, and I'm paraphrasing a great deal here, so take this with a grain of salt), but Xerox was at one point very close to losing their trademark on the name 'Xerox' because it was becoming the commonplace term for any sort of photocopied document, as well as the action of photocopying. Not really sure how it was all resolved, but you can probably look it up on the web.
Point being is that a corporation would be quite foolish <b>not</b> to protect its copyrights to the fullest of its abilities.
2.) Don't EVER try selling someone elses work. Instant lawsuit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game-Fusion.net *cough*
Sure he takes no credit for it making it but did the person have permission to convert that model into a NS model?
The mapper, his handle and name elude me, who is working for VALVe now was with CS from the beginning I THINK. They only hired him on account of his prior works and the industry recognition he recieved. He got this by having his maps in the official version of CS for a long time. The maps who make official releases of any mod are basically the cream of the crop, my friend Arcturus (DoD mapper, made Oslo, Cherbourg, Sicily, etc) still has to submit his work to the DoD team for testing and reworking. Even though I love novelty maps like the Rats series for CS they just don't fit the bill of a terrorist situation do they?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are many, and believe me, I know cause I probably downloaded everything there is until it got boring. In fact, if it weren't for the maps or custom weapon models from mappers and modelers, I'd probably have quit 5 months after playing it. Most people I know still play Counter Strike for the customization. Every week they would have a new model that was either the original from someones work or an improvement from someones work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But of course, I used to be an insane model junky for DoD and I had a meaty 500Mb model collection, and I love playing on custom map servers. I'd like to think that if someone has improved upon someone elses work they got the clearance. That was the whole idea of my initial post. Too inform people of the proper procedure one should take.
For example, I'm driving along and the road sign says 50, but I can try my luck with the cops and speed at 80. But do I REALLY want to risk getting caught? (<<<<Odd example, even for me)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah! The Mona Lisa (its creepy how the eyes follow you...) But anyways, you're making a false statement about the authenticity of the painting. If you were to have a copy of the Mona Lisa, stating its a copy and not the original, and have people come look at it everyday; I see no problem whatsoever. The problem with your example started with you claiming it to be the original.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have seen this happen in the model community. Someone claims it to be their own work when they have clearly ripped someone else off.
[OBSCURE ANIME QUOTE!]
There are 2 writers, one spends many years of his life composing the worlds greatest novel. The other wastes his days doing nothing. Just before the release of the book, the lazy writer manages to get a hold of it and claims it as his own. Noone who reads the novel can tell who the original author was. My question to you is, how can you tell which writer wrote the novel originally?
[/OBSCURE ANIME QUOTE!]
(Hurrah for wierd examples)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can give you another example using the Mona Lisa. My art class has a huge amount of books. Most if not all have a picture of the Mona Lisa and probably about 170 students looks at that picture once everyday in school. Would you suggest to the owner of the Mona Lisa to have the books destroyed or something? Why go to the actual thing when you can stare at it in a cheap $20 book?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The publisher of the book gives away a certain percentage of the sale price back to the original owner of the Mona Lisa. Royalty fees ^_^
In Australia (As I don't know if this applies anywhere else) students are allowed to copy a certain percentage of written text for use in their work. As long as it is PURELY for school work and is not used elsewhere.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once a model gets posted, there'd be downloads instantly. So even if the video game company contacted that modeler about one of his/her copied model, people would already have a copy and eventually share it with whoever wants it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gotta agree with you on this one, even if a company halts the distrobution of the model there is nothing to stop it being passed around elsewhere. Asking them to remove the model is basically all they can do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last note before I go back to playin Natural Selection: Ok so the Modeler might actually care about whoever reads the txt file, but its obvious that no one likes to read things. Probably 99% (That is a very very rough guess) of people never read instruction manuals if they know the basics. Sure if they get some new equipment they might glance over it, but most likely people will tinker around with something until its working correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heheheh yeah, I just set up most of my electronic equipment straight out of the box. I'd like to think some documentation was there in case I got stuck though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Final Note: (This is actually the last, cause it uses the word "Final") How would the big companies ever find out who actually infringed on the copyright and ownership of whatever thing it is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Joe Goodguy usually contacts the companies and it proceeds from there. Sometimes in rare cases you'll get the actual developers browsing the forums. They'll find out one way or the other =/
I THINK they just waved a few lawyers and some big terms in their face and the team removed them.
Also, theres an edit button to prevent double posting.
I'm sure there is some way it can be done. I'm no lawyer =p
ISP: We have a policy to protect our clients privacy.
Corporate Idiot: "So... What happens if a wad of cash mysteriously found itself into your pants?" or "How about I get the Corporate **obscenity** to give you some... Pleasure..."
ISP: "Ahem... I'll be out for lunch *wink wink*"
But if that does happen, couldn't whoever sue the ISP for violating their trust? The corporation might have kept the info and sold it off to other companies. Which would then result in multiple lawsuits for everyone, which stemmed from a frivolous thing like custom models for little children to enhance the joy of their gaming experience.
Thats what you are saying, its like this;
Guy:
I like this (Pulse Rifle as ex), I'll make it for the mod I play (NS) , and I'll release it cuz I think its good, and others may like it to(Forums/Site/etc.).
Owner of Aliens copyright
Hey, thats mine, take it down.
Well most of the time its not, more like;
Guy:
I like this ( <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> Pulse Rifle as ex), I'll make it for the mod I play (NS) , and I'll release it cuz I think its good, and others may like it to(Forums/Site/etc.).
Owner of Aliens copyright
Hey, thats mine, but, its advertising for the series, Hmmm.
Its free publicity, though valve probably asked permission to use the weapons becuase they are making a profit from it.
I know if I were running a company, as long as the guy who made it makes no profit, gives full recognition for the insipration and so on in the readme.
Think on it.
im using their PUBLICALLY released stuff in another game, this has been done a billion times and i dont
see why its a serious issue, but bleh ill email the avp2 creators then and see if i can get clearance before releasing
If they choose to cross it, they are risking getting caught out. Of course that chance is thin, but do you WANT to risk it?
Publicity it may be, but the companies aren't seeing a cent back and in the real world they are gonna be annoyed by this.
ISP: We have a policy to protect our clients privacy.
Corporate Idiot: "So... What happens if a wad of cash mysteriously found itself into your pants?" or "How about I get the Corporate **obscenity** to give you some... Pleasure..."
ISP: "Ahem... I'll be out for lunch *wink wink*"
But if that does happen, couldn't whoever sue the ISP for violating their trust? The corporation might have kept the info and sold it off to other companies. Which would then result in multiple lawsuits for everyone, which stemmed from a frivolous thing like custom models for little children to enhance the joy of their gaming experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually it goes more like this:
Copywrite owner: File XX**XX.zz at location is infringing on our intellectual property, This is a cease and decist order the file is to be removed from your hardware and we require all information about the account holder.
ISP: Ok well remove the file but you cant have the info.
Copywrite owner: This is a federal subpena for said information you will provide it or be held in contempt.
ISP: Heres the info and have a nice day
Copywrite Owner: You have created a file that infringes our Intellectual property, Cease and desist or your **obscenity** is ours.
Copywrite infringer: **Whimper**
That idea pretty much stops other people in these forums from jumping on the creator's back. Which is where the problem is comes from. That is how the problem in the DoD modeling forum started, a little "crusader" decided to make a public display of one person's work.
All it would of taken was an e-mail to the creator and the problem would have been solved.
Create original work and leave the whole IP problem behind.
And please do not get started on IP violations on sounds. The sounds that people will use were most likely taken from movies, which were taken from real life and edited.
Get over it and get on with making quality work.
HE BUMPS!
the whole mona lisa thing isnt a very good example, since its copyright (and im pretty sure copyright failed to even exist at the time of its creation, so if thats true it cant even fall under this catagory) has LONG since expired, so making copies and redistrobuting them for money or not or on whatever medium you want is completely legal in our system. copyright lasts for like 70 years after you die, or 70 years after its creation, or something like that. after that happens, it becomes public domain and you can copy/distribute/whatever you want to your hearts desire. no royalties invovled or anything like that, since the original owner has been dead for quite a while..there would be no one to ask for permission. if you were to make a copy of the mona lisa and claim it as the original, thats an entirely differant crime than copyright violation since youre trying to pull a fast one on a person/people. it would be fraud or something.
but none of this really matters since most poeple probably arent going to copy public domain IP for NS stuff anyhow.
the problem lies in what they call derivative works - fan art, basicly. like Infinitum said, you have to ask permission or else they can tell you to stop and destroy all things related, or whatever they want. the reason is, technically, when you create a derivative work, it still belongs to the copyright holder and they can do what they want with it..weather they allow you to keep doing it or not is up to them. it actually has nothing to do with it being weakened like a trademark, since they (copyright and trademarks) work pretty differantly. a copyright is 100% the creators to with as he/she sees fit, untill the timer expires or they decide otherwise (selling the rights, releasing it into the public, whatever). trademark is a whole other thing alltogether.
but then again, at the same time, big copyright holding entities rarely would spend the resources to go after the odd fan that creates a fanfic or replacement weapon model or whatever. cause like someone mentioned, pretty much all realism mods would be C&Ded by whoever owns the rights to the desert eagle and m16. though fox has a history of killing most fan related meterial. thats why they call mods that have been served cease and desist orders "foxed"; fox put the aliens quake TC down for good, and it was the first (or at least, the first biggest) mod to have that done to them.
all that being said, dont rip off others work and say you did it.. especialy in such a small community where people can recognize the work of other people, cause you'll only get caught and **obscenity** people off. as Bronski said, originality is always the most trouble free route.
and i am not a lawyer or anything, i am more than likely wrong to some degree on this stuff.. so for the sake of reality you should read the actual law to be safe, and not get sued, go to jail, etc <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) When you release, state who made it (Model, skin, animations, so on)
2) Put their readme in the zip file, I just tagged my name on as "Converted: Stratovarius"
As for asking the modelers permission: NO ONE does that. Not me, not any of the other convertors from FA, not De@d Me@t from CS, no one. Many of the modelers are unavailable or have left the community. So everyone just follows the above procedure
2.) Don't EVER try selling someone elses work. Instant lawsuit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game-Fusion.net *cough*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game-fusion can argue because that charge was for the download service, not the files themselves.