Competitive and Casual Community...
hawthorne
Join Date: 2003-10-05 Member: 21460Members
Join Date: 2003-10-05 Member: 21460Members
Private server admins/purchasers have no community obligation. There is no obligation to keep lerklift and phaseEQ and all that junk off of their servers. People MUST be able to maintain their PRIVATE property as they wish to - it's the fundamental aspect of modern society; people can't force the use of private property on the basis of "right" and "wrong" opinions and perspectives.
Whether or not they may lead to the 'death' of NS is irrelevant. You're not going to win hearts and minds by classifying pubbers as ignorant idiots. Additionally, other people's fun is simply not your idea of fun - they have no more right to mess with your fun than you do to mess with theirs.
If the competitive community *really* wants to create a pubbing community where "vet-values" are enforced, they're going to have to put up servers of their own. I'll be frank: the original #nspug Vet server failed hard because of excessively unfriendly admin-ing. Other servers are there, but just being there doesn't make people come - sometimes there are 3,4 "vet" servers competing with each other for a player base, resulting in just about none for everyone. Also, active efforts need to be made by the comp.community to advert, invite, and hold events on these servers.
You have to cut the "if I think you're nub I'll kick you" thing, because a lot of kicked 'nubs' who go to these servers are also players who are actually interested in playing competitively (which are in rare supply). Some may just not be good yet, some may just need a little time to develop. Some are stepping into a higher pace of playing for the first time, and WILL be clueless. But they're WILLING to learn.
The comp.community isn't going to get any larger by maintaining their better-than-you attitudes; most clanners should already know that they are better at the game than most pubbers and shouldn't feel the need to express it in kicks and harrassment. These 'nubs', SOME of them, are the future clanners and they're not going to stay if they don't feel welcome.
So yes, the current pub community is not hurting NS - the clan community is simply killing itself. SOME, even MOST, pubbers are really "stupid" and "ignorant" and "hopeless", but there will be a few gems within that group (remember, we all came from there). If the comp community doesn't work to reach out (i'd like to thank efforts by nsguides and nslearn in the meanwhile) to these groups, there's no one else to blame.
BREAKDOWN
1. Get a vet-owned server that enforces "vet-values" - potential clanners need a place to play and "mingle", because yes, its important.
2. Be more judicious and less ahole-ish in admin behavior on this server.
3. Be active in helping nubs get better. (Thanks NSguides and NSlearn again)
4. Be more mature within the competitive community. If you're a central roleplayer on your team, this means having the patience to stick with your fledgling team instead of running off to a better team.
5. *PLEASE* get NSPug involved in bridging the gap between pub and clan. Between a vet server and pug servers, a wide range of in-between-players can get a better taste of clanplay in either environment.
Why do I care? Because I love this game.
Whether or not they may lead to the 'death' of NS is irrelevant. You're not going to win hearts and minds by classifying pubbers as ignorant idiots. Additionally, other people's fun is simply not your idea of fun - they have no more right to mess with your fun than you do to mess with theirs.
If the competitive community *really* wants to create a pubbing community where "vet-values" are enforced, they're going to have to put up servers of their own. I'll be frank: the original #nspug Vet server failed hard because of excessively unfriendly admin-ing. Other servers are there, but just being there doesn't make people come - sometimes there are 3,4 "vet" servers competing with each other for a player base, resulting in just about none for everyone. Also, active efforts need to be made by the comp.community to advert, invite, and hold events on these servers.
You have to cut the "if I think you're nub I'll kick you" thing, because a lot of kicked 'nubs' who go to these servers are also players who are actually interested in playing competitively (which are in rare supply). Some may just not be good yet, some may just need a little time to develop. Some are stepping into a higher pace of playing for the first time, and WILL be clueless. But they're WILLING to learn.
The comp.community isn't going to get any larger by maintaining their better-than-you attitudes; most clanners should already know that they are better at the game than most pubbers and shouldn't feel the need to express it in kicks and harrassment. These 'nubs', SOME of them, are the future clanners and they're not going to stay if they don't feel welcome.
So yes, the current pub community is not hurting NS - the clan community is simply killing itself. SOME, even MOST, pubbers are really "stupid" and "ignorant" and "hopeless", but there will be a few gems within that group (remember, we all came from there). If the comp community doesn't work to reach out (i'd like to thank efforts by nsguides and nslearn in the meanwhile) to these groups, there's no one else to blame.
BREAKDOWN
1. Get a vet-owned server that enforces "vet-values" - potential clanners need a place to play and "mingle", because yes, its important.
2. Be more judicious and less ahole-ish in admin behavior on this server.
3. Be active in helping nubs get better. (Thanks NSguides and NSlearn again)
4. Be more mature within the competitive community. If you're a central roleplayer on your team, this means having the patience to stick with your fledgling team instead of running off to a better team.
5. *PLEASE* get NSPug involved in bridging the gap between pub and clan. Between a vet server and pug servers, a wide range of in-between-players can get a better taste of clanplay in either environment.
Why do I care? Because I love this game.
Comments
PUBBERS ARE DOWNLOADING THE GAME TO HAVE FUN AND COULD NOT GIVE A RATS **** ABOUT CLANNERS.
There is nothing WRONG with the way pubbers play. There's no POINT in trying to convince them that they're wrong. Because they're not WRONG.
But the competitive scene has to reach out, or at least be more civil towards nubby pubbers who might be potential clanners.
There is no opening-of-eyes that needs to happen - between pub and comp NS, its just two different games, and two different sets of players who play them. And the competitive community, for the most part, isn't making the transition between the two groups a pleasant affair.
Unfortunately, this man speaks the truth <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Exactly. I know an admin who has mp_bs set to 0, but has a special AMX plugin that kicks/bans you for two minutes if it detects a _special script.
Meh, I don't think this post will help clanners (They're already a tightwad bunch to begin with), but it might help some puggers get used to the idea that if they want to play like a clanner, they have to act like it and expect some setbacks.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have to agree.
...but I hope it does change because it is real frik'n tragedy that clanners and vets can't/don't mix with regular pubbers or casual players.
I saw a thread on here making a funny statement how the role-playing forum is more active then the clan recruiting forum... funny as it was I think it is a direct result of the divide between clanners/vets and pubbers in this community.
If anyone is still arguing one group is more important then the other group I invite them off their ferris wheel of logic so I can smack them with my backhand of reality.
<b><u>Pubbers need Clanners/Vets</u></b>
They push the boundries of NS strategy and gameplay-wise which helps develope NS
They introduce and innovate strategy for pub play
Showcasing talent they attract attention and create"superstar" advertisers to draw new players
They can help;
newbies become pubbers -> pubbers become regs -> regs become clanners -> clanners become vets
<b><u>Clanners need Pubbers</u></b>
Simply put: They are your fans
They are where new talent can develop which sustains and helps the clan scene grow
They form the largest group of "advertisers" which introduce new players to NS
They form the biggest group of players in the community
It's like one big frik'n circle of life.
I'm glad this thread was created. It took guts for someone to bring up a potentially divisive problem that really hurts NS but no one talks about. One of the reasons I lost interest in NS is because Pubbing Classic was full of uncreative, boring, strategies that became painful 45+ minute stalemates without an end in sight. I believe it was because regs/clanner/vets became less involved and less interested in pubs and the benefit of their insight and cutting edge strategies didn't "trickle-down" into pub severs. I believe this thread addresses a problem for both Clanners and Pubbers equally.
**<i><b>The rest of this stuff is opinion</b></i>**
We may never be able to quantify the relationship between Clanners and Pubbers but I believe Clanners cannot exist without Pubbers, and without Clanners the game will grow stale and slowly sufficate the number of Pubbers.
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Nice post hawthorne.
The quote above was from the big **** thread you are responding too. Don't know if many people got a chance to read it but I thought I'd include it as a pubber's perspective of this issue.
I hope a thread from a known clanner will turn some heads and change some attitudes because in the end... I think this is all an attitude problem.
Its also a double edged sword. There are some clanners out there who don’t give a **** and would rather only play with ppl with actual skill. If they’re complaining about the skill level in pubs, its probably cause the pubbers have no example to follow. How are u meant to get better against nobodies. Unfortunately when trying to instruct ppl how to play properly or well, they take it as in insult and type shutup or I don’t need your help.
The supposed answer is to create a server for vets only. What’s the point of this, means the gap between those with skill and those without will increase dramatically. Programs like nsguides and nslearn are trying to decrease this gap of skill, but your answer is to create a server for vets only. The two even each other out and were left where we were originally. Pubbers and Clanners not wanting to play with each other.
Another answer is to set up a server for your community only. This server could only be accessible with a password, probably received through forums. This way u have a limited player base for that server, but at least u know who has the password. An example of this is the australian gamearena. Where the only way to access the majority of there servers is by using cogs.
BTW this is attitude mostly, not the actual game.
Mf.
[Reedit] Obviously it wasnt a mistake... the second part of the first edit was correct anyway.... the original post follows below ^^
male_fatalities:
That is not what this thread is about though, this one is about how the competetive community can improve, not how the public community SHOULD improve (which was what nadagast's topic was about).
Both topics are important, but I think hawthorne made a good decision in splitting the discussions up, and I feel we should respect his intent.
One of the points i forgot to mention was:
If you improved the natural selection pubbing community, it will in turn improve the natural selection clan community.
PUBBERS ARE DOWNLOADING THE GAME TO HAVE FUN AND COULD NOT GIVE A RATS **** ABOUT CLANNERS.
There is nothing WRONG with the way pubbers play. There's no POINT in trying to convince them that they're wrong. Because they're not WRONG.
But the competitive scene has to reach out, or at least be more civil towards nubby pubbers who might be potential clanners.
There is no opening-of-eyes that needs to happen - between pub and comp NS, its just two different games, and two different sets of players who play them. And the competitive community, for the most part, isn't making the transition between the two groups a pleasant affair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Congradulations, you completely missed the point of that 34 page thread. Where did Nadagast ever say that he wanted to change the way pubbers play? I know I never argued that point, either, though I can't say the same for Forlorn....the point is, the entire reason that thread was created was because many pubbers ARE IGNORANT. Not of the "proper" way to play, not of the clan scene, not of how to become a better player, none of that. They are ignorant about scripts though, and from this ignorance (and other misconceptions) they end up hating better players, especially those with clan tags.
You can't be "ignorant from [our] point of view". Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, there's no two-ways to slice that. You could be <u>stupid</u> from just once side's point of view, but no one called pubbers stupid.
It's a clear-cut fact that too many pubbers associate scripts with hacking and clanners with scripts, and therefore clanners with hacking. I shottied 3 or 4 skulks one after the other in a game on the TSAO server, and guess what? I got 3 hackusators (coined!) screaming how I use scripts to kill them. Luckily the admin was actually knowledgable, and eventually they shut up. Right now, the competitive scene CAN'T reach out to pubbers, because anytime they go on a pub server they get yelled at. And since disseminating information apparently meets with such strong resistance, even on these boards, that's not gonna change anytime soon.
I do believe though that as an admin of a public server you have a certain responsability towards the community, and that is to educate yourself so you can make the best decisions for "your" people. That's not the point of this thread though, this thread is about how we as competetive players need to accept the average "public" player as they are, and instead of treating them condescendingly-ish (??) encourage them and act as rolemodels.
One part of this is certainly putting up public communities of our own, either groups of individuals, or through organisations like #nspug on gamesurge, or #ns-rss on quakenet, where competetive players can gather to play and those who are interested can join to learn.
Another part is to make a combined effort to stop what some people call "griefing" on public servers. When you play on a public server, you have to try to take your whole team into consideration. Yes, you are probably the best fade on the server (and even I although I'm not a good fade), but fading is fun and you should let others do it as well. Try to treat the round as if it were a "real" game and go perma gorge once in a while. Or take that welder and weld the vents at double, even though you realise that turreting up the double res spot is a misake. This is an important symbolic gesture that undoubtfully make a greater difference than might be obvious at first.
[Edit] I realise this is more or less the same as what hawthorne said in the original post, but I feel that an important point cant be made too many times.
Had this truly been an answer to Nada's thread, it would now be merged in. Since it is actually touching a tangent, I figure it's better to resolve that misunderstanding.
I am not a clanner, so I won't start commenting on what the competitive community 'has' to do, but let me make a general observation: People play NS for many different reasons. Some want a social experience, others take it as a sport, even others enjoy the feeling of being in a sci-fi movie, and some will merely see NS as yet another platform to having a fun though nonsensical time. Everyone will, stuck in their own perspective, consider it the most important, and consider everything done that does not fit into their view of how the game <i>should</i> be, i.e., how it <i>would</i> be if it cartered to their perspective and none other, a step in the wrong direction. It's thus obvious that friction will rise between such groups, but realize that this friction is superfluous. No developer on this planet can afford alienating all but one gaming demographic, and most, including us, don't <i>want</i> to. The other sides and their idea of 'fun' won't go away, and they are just as important to us as you. It'll safe you, and everyone else, a lot of grey hair, if you accept that others will play the game differently, and often, no manner of 'education' will change this since some just want to get something different out of the experience. The only halfway sensible way of going about this is to live and let live.
Had this truly been an answer to Nada's thread, it would now be merged in. Since it is actually touching a tangent, I figure it's better to resolve that misunderstanding.
I am not a clanner, so I won't start commenting on what the competitive community 'has' to do, but let me make a general observation: People play NS for many different reasons. Some want a social experience, others take it as a sport, even others enjoy the feeling of being in a sci-fi movie, and some will merely see NS as yet another platform to having a fun though nonsensical time. Everyone will, stuck in their own perspective, consider it the most important, and consider everything done that does not fit into their view of how the game <i>should</i> be, i.e., how it <i>would</i> be if it cartered to their perspective and none other, a step in the wrong direction. It's thus obvious that friction will rise between such groups, but realize that this friction is superfluous. No developer on this planet can afford alienating all but one gaming demographic, and most, including us, don't <i>want</i> to. The other sides and their idea of 'fun' won't go away, and they are just as important to us as you. It'll safe you, and everyone else, a lot of grey hair, if you accept that others will play the game differently, and often, no manner of 'education' will change this since some just want to get something different out of the experience. The only halfway sensible way of going about this is to live and let live. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I have to agree with you here Nem0, as a dev I wouldn't set foot into these waters in fear of alienating a playerbase.
The most obvious solution here is to allow the communities duke it out between each other.
No, I'm not being sarcasitc.
Hopefully b6 adresses the large game balance problems NS has so clanners can setup a public server without fear of aliens getting dominated round after round.
I miss Hamptons. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Where do clanners hang out?
The NS community includes both parts - the casual “pubber” and the competitive “clanner.” and the many ones between this “extremes”.
If a “clanner” get killed as fade by a “pubber” it’s not “luck” or “lag”. It’s because he did the right thing at the right time. If a “clanner” kills a pubber it’s not because of scripts/hax, it’s because he has skills.
I’m a “pubber” but on my server also “clanners” are welcome if they’re polite and respect their team and follow the rules (you’re free to discuss about the rules if you wish so).
Tolerance > all
I miss Hamptons. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Where do clanners hang out? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
#nspug
irc.gamesurge.net
grab mirc from www.mirc.com if you do not have an IRC client (if you don't know what irc is, then yes, you will need mirc)
~230 active people, 4 servers to play on
If I run from a group of marines at <50 health and I run into some random NSPlayer who's just wandering around the map, and he kills me, you would consider that the "right thing at the right time"? That's what I would call luck <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . He didn't mean to trap me, he wasn't following the com's orders, he just happened to be there, and I ran into him when I was at low health. I think that's like the definition of "luck".....
If I run from a group of marines at <50 health and I run into some random NSPlayer who's just wandering around the map, and he kills me, you would consider that the "right thing at the right time"? That's what I would call luck <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . He didn't mean to trap me, he wasn't following the com's orders, he just happened to be there, and I ran into him when I was at low health. I think that's like the definition of "luck"..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He did the right thing at the right time. May be not by intent, but rambo’ing is about getting such opportunities, and maybe not with the same skill like a “clanner”.
The point is: It was you fault, you did the wrong thing. You can call that “bad luck” but that won’t change anything <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[Edit] My point being that it is frustrating and venting that frustration is the only way to remain sane.
u being on the wrong server at the wrong time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually for the first time in a season there is real competetion, check out the predictions between Terror and Exi (no one is 100% sure of who will win) and the same goes for sU vs. dn.
If you think so, that's your opinion, which you are entitled to. At this moment, 1.547 players seem to think differently. I'd appreciate if you didn't belittle them.