Target Hardcore Gamers
Sukit
Join Date: 2005-01-08 Member: 33712Members
Join Date: 2005-01-08 Member: 33712Members
Before i start ill warn you that this could be a long post and is designed primarily for hardcore gamers (that is online gaming occupies a significant amount of ur life) and please make all flaming constructive. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hi as a long time gamer and vetran of many HL mods (although new to NS Forums) ive often thought that the joy of online gaming stems from variety. Ill break this post up into 2 sections id like to see re-implemented into NS, <b>1) Teamwork as a priority 2) Hardcore gamer friendly</b> Please keep in mind that throughout this post im talking about Pub server play and not clan wars etc, and im speaking with experience only in Australian servers.
<b>1) Team work as priority:</b>
Something that instantly appealed to me about NS was how strongly it pushed team work, and was the first HL mod and infact online game that actually succesfully achieved it. Recently i think the teamwork factor has slowly been slipping out of the game. Through large developments such as NS-Combat (which admittedly i do enjoy) down to the smaller developments such as re-introducing player kill scores bringing about the frag/flag whoring so promanent in other HL mods. I loved the fact that in NS i HAD to rely on others (if i was a gorge i had to rely on other breeds to protect me, or if i was a fade etc i had to rely on gorges for upgrades, healing etc) And in turn i loved being relied on. It provided a much greater level of satisfaction than simply checking how many fades id bagged during the last level and being able to gloat about some number.
This <b>requirement</b> of teamwork to be succesfull (ie win) also meant that people playing the game gained respect from fellow players as they made decisions that helped the team (built an oc to defend a criticle point, saved a base from being destroyed by an alien attack while everyone else died). Conversley players that hampered the team were frowned apon (i.e noob gorges whoring res, and building certain upgrades without consulting the team etc). It was this team work and <b>praise</b> from fellow players that made NS a totally revolutionary game in the online world. In all other online FPS games Id prefer to see someone on my own team die than clean up the other team, as the race for frags included not only those on the other team but those on mine as well. In NS this did not happen if someone on your team pwns the enemy your cheering because they saved your assets and your weapons as well. the same goes for the alien side. However this teamwork seems to be eroding
Why you may ask? i beileve one of the factors is the goal of appealing to new gamers. In effect removing the fealing that 'your needed by your team' and as an excellent recent movie so describes "when everybodies special, no body is" At the moment im not going to go into details of how to change some of these things as this would make this post truly monumental in size, but if there is any support to what im saying then i may write further posts detailing changes. But things like making the gorge more noob friendly and less of a asset ( i remmeber loving my gorge like a borther in early versians of NS because if he died our team was screwed).
Sure when i started playing NS it was a baptism of fire as you learned the ropes (like everyone had too) but by doing so you gained respect for players who had gone before you and already mastered certain aspects of the game. Likewise you respected players on your team that would make a good decision that would in turn bennefit you. It is this concept of respect from fellow players that FOSTERS team work and is the main factor that made NS such a truly revolutionary game. By diminishing the importance of certain classes and making the game more appealing to newbies (sorry for calling them that but thats what they are) you are removing any form of 'respect or rank' within the NS playing commuinity and your diluting a game that has a lot of potential. Hasnt anyone noticed that the more NS tries to appeal to new players the more the game has transformed into a frag fest similar to dod and CS where mashing the mouse and the continuouse cycle of spawn and respawn makes for a repetitive uninsprinig game. All games seem to set out for the goal of team work however when $$ rears its evil head the appeal to attract more and more gamers overtakes this desire. Sure FPS attract gamers fast however i and thousands of others were also instantly attracted to NS and its unique gameplay and teamwork. As the NS community and constellation members show.
I think that the NS team did a very good thing when they brought out NS combat as this accounts for noobs who winge about having to learn how to play and their desire to play a mindeless FPS. so now that there accounted for give Natural selection back to the hardcore gamers by once again aiming for Teamwork and the system of respect by making the game challenging to both grasp and play (but not impossible). I think you did this brilliantly with the early versians of NS however i think in recent times it has begun to slip. Either way i thank you for producing a game that has given me thousands of hours of enjoyment. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sukit.
Hi as a long time gamer and vetran of many HL mods (although new to NS Forums) ive often thought that the joy of online gaming stems from variety. Ill break this post up into 2 sections id like to see re-implemented into NS, <b>1) Teamwork as a priority 2) Hardcore gamer friendly</b> Please keep in mind that throughout this post im talking about Pub server play and not clan wars etc, and im speaking with experience only in Australian servers.
<b>1) Team work as priority:</b>
Something that instantly appealed to me about NS was how strongly it pushed team work, and was the first HL mod and infact online game that actually succesfully achieved it. Recently i think the teamwork factor has slowly been slipping out of the game. Through large developments such as NS-Combat (which admittedly i do enjoy) down to the smaller developments such as re-introducing player kill scores bringing about the frag/flag whoring so promanent in other HL mods. I loved the fact that in NS i HAD to rely on others (if i was a gorge i had to rely on other breeds to protect me, or if i was a fade etc i had to rely on gorges for upgrades, healing etc) And in turn i loved being relied on. It provided a much greater level of satisfaction than simply checking how many fades id bagged during the last level and being able to gloat about some number.
This <b>requirement</b> of teamwork to be succesfull (ie win) also meant that people playing the game gained respect from fellow players as they made decisions that helped the team (built an oc to defend a criticle point, saved a base from being destroyed by an alien attack while everyone else died). Conversley players that hampered the team were frowned apon (i.e noob gorges whoring res, and building certain upgrades without consulting the team etc). It was this team work and <b>praise</b> from fellow players that made NS a totally revolutionary game in the online world. In all other online FPS games Id prefer to see someone on my own team die than clean up the other team, as the race for frags included not only those on the other team but those on mine as well. In NS this did not happen if someone on your team pwns the enemy your cheering because they saved your assets and your weapons as well. the same goes for the alien side. However this teamwork seems to be eroding
Why you may ask? i beileve one of the factors is the goal of appealing to new gamers. In effect removing the fealing that 'your needed by your team' and as an excellent recent movie so describes "when everybodies special, no body is" At the moment im not going to go into details of how to change some of these things as this would make this post truly monumental in size, but if there is any support to what im saying then i may write further posts detailing changes. But things like making the gorge more noob friendly and less of a asset ( i remmeber loving my gorge like a borther in early versians of NS because if he died our team was screwed).
Sure when i started playing NS it was a baptism of fire as you learned the ropes (like everyone had too) but by doing so you gained respect for players who had gone before you and already mastered certain aspects of the game. Likewise you respected players on your team that would make a good decision that would in turn bennefit you. It is this concept of respect from fellow players that FOSTERS team work and is the main factor that made NS such a truly revolutionary game. By diminishing the importance of certain classes and making the game more appealing to newbies (sorry for calling them that but thats what they are) you are removing any form of 'respect or rank' within the NS playing commuinity and your diluting a game that has a lot of potential. Hasnt anyone noticed that the more NS tries to appeal to new players the more the game has transformed into a frag fest similar to dod and CS where mashing the mouse and the continuouse cycle of spawn and respawn makes for a repetitive uninsprinig game. All games seem to set out for the goal of team work however when $$ rears its evil head the appeal to attract more and more gamers overtakes this desire. Sure FPS attract gamers fast however i and thousands of others were also instantly attracted to NS and its unique gameplay and teamwork. As the NS community and constellation members show.
I think that the NS team did a very good thing when they brought out NS combat as this accounts for noobs who winge about having to learn how to play and their desire to play a mindeless FPS. so now that there accounted for give Natural selection back to the hardcore gamers by once again aiming for Teamwork and the system of respect by making the game challenging to both grasp and play (but not impossible). I think you did this brilliantly with the early versians of NS however i think in recent times it has begun to slip. Either way i thank you for producing a game that has given me thousands of hours of enjoyment. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sukit.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I understand what you are saying but i tend to disagree, I think that the game will still <b>attract</b> gamers (as i and thousands of others were initially attracted to it in its earlier state). I think the problem is trying to keep current gamers satisified, and to do that i think you need to bring back the concepts of teamwork etc that ive mentioned above. Bringing out new Beta's is a really good way of keeping gamers interested but only for a short space of time. I hope as you said that NS2 will bring a return to these values.
Sukit
I'd attribute a lot of the generally missing teamwork you bemoan to the current relative superiority of the marines - them being the side that's normally supposed to rely on teamwork. We hope to change that trend with Beta 6.
Initially nobody had heard of NS at all. Now the vast majority of the 'hardcore' you talk about <i>have</i> heard of NS and have made their decision. I really doubt the slow trickle of those who haven't is enough to counter the numbers of other players dropping off. Not that I think dumbing down (if it is happening at all) is a good thing for the game.
Same with your suggestion, you start targeting Hardcore gamers, and then the pubbers find the gameplay is too unbalanced.
As it says on the NS sight, this game has been balance tested in excess of 3 years, it is comparable to a rhinoceros walking a tight rope, you can't just come along and fling suggestions without understanding the fine neutral point NS now stands at.
Id prefer this to be a post about the importance of teamwork in the game, and to succesfully achieve teamwork you have to have a level of disparity ( or skill difference and hence a difficult to learn game) between players (and im talking about more than ability to aim, im talking about buny hopping, build order, finer points that noobs havnt grasped yet but still decide the outcome of the game) so that players feel needed and their level of experience in the game directly affects how well they play.
chanty has a good post in response to this question as i also posted it in the ideas and development section as i didnt know where i should post it. He recalls the long 3-4 hour matches and the importance of teamwork in those epic games.
the shortnening of the games is a great example of how the game has been chagned to suit new players to i beileve, the detrament of the game. As i say this however i beileve the current balance of the game is quiet well established as it has been through the majority of the beta releases.
yea, I don't want to cause public outcry, but NS is dying and we need to do somehting about it. As I mentioned, over 3+ years of play, I've made the transition from pubber to veteran, I can see where the decay is happening. As you've said, balancing NS to the middle sucks all the challenge out for veterans. I think the best approach would be to make two different types of NS (much like they did with combat). They could call it NS:classic and NS:hardcore or something. One that appeases pubbers, and one that appeases veterans. That would be nice to see. Although in all honesty I don't think the devs would go for it.
I started playing NS as soon as it was released to the public. I thought it was fantastic and joined a clan, cX, to enjoy the teamplay aspect of it. I became a veteran at the time and the scene was good, but I then jumped out of Half-Life and NS at the peak of organized play. I come back to see a much larger player base, but an even smaller clan base.
If there were to be two different modes of standard NS it could still be one mode, but just a "tourny" mode where parts of the game mechanics favor the competitive spirit. Things such as upgrade times, damage amounts, and the like could be tweaked for the organized community while pubs could enjoy the regular things.. that's just my take on it..
There was real teamwork when there was only one gorge allowed. You'd have escorts and everything. While it promoted teamwork, it was usually one guy having to perma-gorge the whole round, or god forbid, a newbie going gorge and screwing up the entire round.
You still have to rely on your team mates, just not so much that if they make a mistake they cost you the game.
Marines rely on the commander, and their squadmates to watch their back.
Kharaa have to rely on the gorges to keep the defences up, and to get up the hives, although its not hard to look after yourself. The Lerk is a support class. Its very effective for giving Fades a bit more protection in battle.
Combat was pretty much created to be a way for new players to be guided into the game, to avoid the hugely steep learning curve. The fact that all the complexity of NS is missing in Combat, means that its pretty much just a slightly complex Team Deathmatch game mode for people who cant handle the full on NS experience.
although i know its never going to happen, i think a good idea is to look way back in the older versions, and change things back. (cost, time, restrictions, power)
And to just let them know that those of us who have been around long enough to have experienced the Team work that was in earlier versians of NS preffered this type of gameplay.
Also with the idea of the pub Vs Hardcore game types i dont think this would work as this will simply further fragment the game making it harder to get full servers as the gaming population is further split up into smaller groups.
I think you should focus on two game types <b>1) NS- Combat </b>(noob friendly and noob targeted) & to build a player base<b> 2) Natural Selection Focus on hardcore gamers and Teamwork. </b>
that way noobs can learn the ropes b4 they make the transition to the full on game! Its not like people arnt goign to play Natural selection anymore because its to hard to play! New gamers and old alike will continue to play the game! as i said earlier we all started playing it when we were noobs ! and we got through. NS-Combat will just make it a little bit easier for the transition.
We all learnt how to play classic, infact took me a whole 2 weeks of non stop playing. Another 4 weeks to know the maps off by heart. The skill gap between vets and normal pub players is astounding. One good player on aliens or marines will ensure a victory. I agree that to balance a game such as ns with the ability to use diverse tactics must be a very hard. This includes 3 different chambers each with 3 upgrades in themself, then the huge marine tech.
and keep a lot of the new things (Catylist, Ailen Weapons)
and its not really that rare of a statement to kill off CO, CO was made as a training thing, but it got to more, now its a common game for those intrested in Killing, insead of Stratigy.
Lets face it, you can't always find 10-15 people willing to set up a nice game of ns be it in real life or online. CO was probably made as a little fun mode to the problem of NS not working for 4 on 4 or 3 on 3, and still playable even with a 10 on 10 game if you wanted to.
CO can take just as much coordination to win, especially for the marines. Still i'm not surprised CO is hated, we're all NS players, and hate the old cs style omglookatmeihavemorekillsthandeathslolol style of gaming.
As for reverting ns back to the old days....a part of me wants it, but a part of me doesn't. There have been good changes and bad changes to ns since the golden days of versions like 1.04 and 2.01...i always liked multigorges more, never been a fan or rfk, love the fade nowadays because it takes a bit more skill to use and hate long marine turtlefests.
the good, and the bad.
I don't think ns will ever fit everyone's style of gameplay, but changing ns just so some elite clanplayers can have their wet dream of an fps/rts is probably the worst thing we can ask for. Lets just sit back and leave the visions for ns up to flayra and the dev team. They listen to us a lot more than any professional gaming company listens to their fans and i for one trust them to invision what ns will become.
And in my opinion this is what is the problem. The big professional companies may not watch their forums as closely, but their one goal is to make the game sell more, and that means they will invest alot of time in improving gameplay. What you (read: the fans) want and what they need (read: what will actually make them happy in the end) does not have to be the same.
An important part of building a community is creating a big and stable competetive scene. I do not believe games like CS or Starcraft would be as popular as they are now, had it not been for the focus on creating a game fit for competetive games/gamers. A computer game-community needs heroes, as much as a real life community does, and the competetive scene is the best medium to provide those heroes.
I for one would not be bothered by any obvious imbalances when I start playing a new game if I know that people play the game competetively and do not complain of the same imbalances, instead I would accept the fact (and actually be encouraged by it) that I need to get better before it all starts making sense.
Conclusion: I believe that the "elite" players' views are of outmost importance since without this element (the competetive scene) the community cant evolve and grow. You cant have fansites if there is nothing to report etc.
<i>"Lets face it, you can't always find 10-15 people willing to set up a nice game of ns be it in real life or online. CO was probably made as a little fun mode to the problem of NS not working for 4 on 4 or 3 on 3, and still playable even with a 10 on 10 game if you wanted to."</i>
Sorry cheez this comment dosnt do it for me.
I remember a time when ns servers were full, and that time certainly isnt now. Everyone keep in mind that a change back to the 'olden days' will not solve the problem, rather the devs need to build on what they have already laid down to create a <b>competive game </b>that promotes <b>teamwork</b> and set this as their main goal! The players will come on their own to a game thats different, Has <b>variety</b>, and has something other games are lacking. If i want to play a FPS i play CS if i want to play a FPS/ (note the slash) RTS i play NS because its the only game of this type worth playing! how about we keep it that way.
I dont want to see NS go down the path of other unique MOD's such as DoD, loosing their inspiration and 'dream' they had for the game to create another mindless FPS all for the sake of a few $$. <b>Real Gamers</b> are tired of FPS's because theyve been playing them since Wolftenstien 3d. And its real gamers that have kept this industry alive and will continue to do so.
Sukit.