The One And Only Problem With Combat
Lee_Harvey
Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11448Members
Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11448Members
<div class="IPBDescription">...you'll never guess</div> FADES <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[RANT]
They are the only unit in the game who can easily go 70s-1 with no issues (Except redemp onos). I believe that stems from exactly one thing: Blink. It uses relatively little energy and allows fades to instantly escape any danger. Sure you can occasionally catch a blinking fade with a shotgun round on his way out the door, but any player with talent will almost never die as a fade.
My question is: Why is the 3-point unit just as, if not more, durable than the 4-point unit. Compared to the longevity of fades, onos may as well be made of paper.
My proposal: A delay time after blink is selected before it can be used (Think the new awp-scoping in CS). No more BLINKFOCUSSWIPEBLINKNODAMAGEOVERANDOVER runs by fades.
I was under the impression that fades were intended to be like the cavalry to the skulk's infantry, not the little assault ninjas that stab you in the back and run away. If that is incorrect let me know.
[/RANT]
p.s. if it's been discussed to death also let me know, I only showed 8 topics in the forum <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[RANT]
They are the only unit in the game who can easily go 70s-1 with no issues (Except redemp onos). I believe that stems from exactly one thing: Blink. It uses relatively little energy and allows fades to instantly escape any danger. Sure you can occasionally catch a blinking fade with a shotgun round on his way out the door, but any player with talent will almost never die as a fade.
My question is: Why is the 3-point unit just as, if not more, durable than the 4-point unit. Compared to the longevity of fades, onos may as well be made of paper.
My proposal: A delay time after blink is selected before it can be used (Think the new awp-scoping in CS). No more BLINKFOCUSSWIPEBLINKNODAMAGEOVERANDOVER runs by fades.
I was under the impression that fades were intended to be like the cavalry to the skulk's infantry, not the little assault ninjas that stab you in the back and run away. If that is incorrect let me know.
[/RANT]
p.s. if it's been discussed to death also let me know, I only showed 8 topics in the forum <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
disabling a learnable skill just because the overall unit is too strong is stupid. walker fades shouldnt exist at all (they show a lack of skill) and they will go down very quickly.
in the meantime, dont walk alone and dont miss shots.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was under the impression that fades were intended to be like the cavalry to the skulk's infantry, not the little assault ninjas that stab you in the back and run away. If that is incorrect let me know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'll let someone who is an experienced fade reply to that, however at least in classic they are hit and run units.
I don't know where you got that idea - blink will empty your energy bar in less than a second of continuous use. Energy management (ie: learning how to blink a lot without draining your energy) is an essential and fairly difficult part of lerning how to fade right.
Now all the alien units are the same other than the onos. You just leap/flap/blink then bite then repeat.
Its getting boring tbh.
NS should go back to having variety in the alien side rather than just larger faster identical aliens.
(oh and jetpacks are the other problem with combat. Jetpacks and fades always decide combat maps, with the ocasional webing gorge to help out)
as lvl 10 focus fade i have **** loads of screenshots of getting scores such as 77-0 118-1 etc, even against good marine players.
solution:
hmm i really find it hard to think of what can be done. and tbh, i dont think there is anything that can be done without doing a massive restructure of the combat system.
my advice, encourage your team to get welders, keep each other welded, try to block fades escape routes and get lvl 3 sgs or hmgs with cat packs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
True, but when you look at the majority of co maps, they are miniscule compared to ns maps.
The problem with combat is that the gameplay differs so much from classic, and it still bounded by classic balancing, by the way, why combat gameplay differs so much from classic ns when it should be a tutorial for NS? For solving this problem I think a majorcombat reestructure would make things fit
The problem with combat is that the gameplay differs so much from classic, and it still bounded by classic balancing, by the way, why combat gameplay differs so much from classic ns when it should be a tutorial for NS? For solving this problem I think a majorcombat reestructure would make things fit <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
/agree combat and classic are totally different games just with the same theme
Crippling the fade will result in 2 things: Most decent players will permalerk, maps like angst wont be played anymore, cause they are too cramped to use the lerk to its full potential. The problem with fades is that once you fade you nearly tripple your killing potential.
Connecting fades to a certain lvl might work. Eg you cant fade before u reach lvl 8.
Although i am repeating myself: If rines dont manage to kill the hive within 15 minutes they just dont deserve to win.
I mean, 3 points on fade, thats, lets say, silence celeirty and sof as skulk, a fade with no upgrades is beter than a skulk with those upgrades (just)
then add carapace to fade, an extra 100 armour!! :X then whack on focus and your already unstoppable all you need to do is learn to blink, so many good players get noobed by some crappy fade who thinks he is god of CO because he rack up huge scores.
If the mariens kill a fade, its a skulk again, and by the time you can refade the game is over and you are being spawn killed by a GL/HMGer/etc.
Combat should remove EXP for kills, as should NS lose RFK and replace the EXP source in combat with objectives. Have attacker/defender maps and give the defenders constant but slow EXP gain while the attackers get EXP for doing their objective (building a unbuilt CC, killing a chamber/hive etc.) Or just have both sides with objectives to kill.
Would make combat more like training for classic, and more fun.
skulk + leap + focus could easily = fade w/ no upgrades
it makes combat respond more like ns balance.
I've heard about every single thing you can encounter in co maps be called unbalanced. And not just in single instances, but A LOT. All of the following have been complained about consistently:
silence focus leaping skulks are unbalanced.
webbing gorges are unbalanced.
xeno skulks are unbalanced.
Grenade Launcher spam is unbalanced.
JetPacks are unbalanced.
Having 2 players go fast onos is unbalanced
Spawncamping is unbalanced.
Marine stacking is unbalanced.
10 minute time limit is unbalanced.
And now the entire fade unit is unbalanced.
Well then don't play Co, play NS.
Oh but wait, NS is unbalanced in favor of marines in games larger than 12 people and unbalanced in favor of aliens in games smaller than 12 people. So they have to rework the entire res system first.
On the subject of fade balance:
I play fade in CAL. Let me assure you that basic marine units (w1,a1,sg--LvL 4 in Co, fade with regen is level 5) will mess up a fade. There is nothing wrong with blink energy usage, because against a good clan i like adrenaline over celerity. Frankly it makes me feel safer. Snagging a corner and not having enough adren to get away is one of the top ways fades die.
It really only takes 5 lvl 1 shotgun blasts, all connecting to kill a fade. That means against 2 shotgunners, a fade can't stay longer than one swipe. And that fade better be damn sure that there isn't a third shotgunner around the corner hiding somewhere, cause thats the other main way fades die. (Take c12 in veil for example. You hide one shotty in the node alcove, and put two shotties on the marine start side. If the fade is at the pipeline side of the room, and he goes in against the 2 shotgunners he sees on the other end of that hall. He's gonna get hit by at least 3 shells from the 2 main guys, and he's gonna get hit by 2 from the guy that steps out from the node. DEAD FADE.
As a fade i wont even engage an Hmg'er unless he's essentially by himself. If he's solo or if there is enough confusion in a fight that i can get to him without him hitting me the whole way.
To see what i'm saying in action, go to ampednews.com and download the rumblefish vs. cold n shaved match demo. You'll see me and Jobo get backed up all the way to smelter room (furnace hive's seige room) from laser drilling (the closest marine rt. We don't even engage the marines once and there were two of us. It would have meant dead fades. When fades cost as much as hives, you don't play risky.
Also go to <a href='http://www.team-terror.net/' target='_blank'>http://www.team-terror.net/</a> and download the terror frag highlight video. This is the best clan in natural selection right now and its got plent of footage of them absolutly rocking the BEST fades in the game. There is one clip where an lmg'er solo's exi.PainUser as a fade. PainUser is one of the best fades there ever was.
In conlcusion, stop whining about things being unfair or inbalanced. No matter what it is. You are most likely being beaten legitimately by a better player. The game's balance has been tested exhaustively.
The games I've played there are just remarkable, unchained chambers makes a world of difference.
The games I've played there are just remarkable, unchained chambers makes a world of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you feel that strongly about unchaining the chambers, can you please stay on those servers instead of ruining others peoples game. kthx
The games I've played there are just remarkable, unchained chambers makes a world of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you feel that strongly about unchaining the chambers, can you please stay on those servers instead of ruining others peoples game. kthx <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not selfish enough to hog the incredible gameplay to myself... others need to be enlightened.
Edit: its humorous you use the word "ruin" when refering to SC first games...
The games I've played there are just remarkable, unchained chambers makes a world of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you feel that strongly about unchaining the chambers, can you please stay on those servers instead of ruining others peoples game. kthx <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not selfish enough to hog the incredible gameplay to myself... others need to be enlightened.
Edit: its humorous you use the word "ruin" when refering to SC first games... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you ruin the game for other people who want to do MC first. Did it ever occure to you that maybe other people tried unchained and didn't like, and thats why they play on chained servers. or is that to simple for you to realise.
Right... Next time i do it I'll drop a MC and see what happens.
As for people not liking unchained servers... i haven't ran into anyone that didn't like balance.
I've heard about every single thing you can encounter in co maps be called unbalanced. And not just in single instances, but A LOT. All of the following have been complained about consistently:
silence focus leaping skulks are unbalanced.
webbing gorges are unbalanced.
xeno skulks are unbalanced.
Grenade Launcher spam is unbalanced.
JetPacks are unbalanced.
Having 2 players go fast onos is unbalanced
Spawncamping is unbalanced.
Marine stacking is unbalanced.
10 minute time limit is unbalanced.
And now the entire fade unit is unbalanced.
Well then don't play Co, play NS.
Oh but wait, NS is unbalanced in favor of marines in games larger than 12 people and unbalanced in favor of aliens in games smaller than 12 people. So they have to rework the entire res system first.
On the subject of fade balance:
I play fade in CAL. Let me assure you that basic marine units (w1,a1,sg--LvL 4 in Co, fade with regen is level 5) will mess up a fade. There is nothing wrong with blink energy usage, because against a good clan i like adrenaline over celerity. Frankly it makes me feel safer. Snagging a corner and not having enough adren to get away is one of the top ways fades die.
It really only takes 5 lvl 1 shotgun blasts, all connecting to kill a fade. That means against 2 shotgunners, a fade can't stay longer than one swipe. And that fade better be damn sure that there isn't a third shotgunner around the corner hiding somewhere, cause thats the other main way fades die. (Take c12 in veil for example. You hide one shotty in the node alcove, and put two shotties on the marine start side. If the fade is at the pipeline side of the room, and he goes in against the 2 shotgunners he sees on the other end of that hall. He's gonna get hit by at least 3 shells from the 2 main guys, and he's gonna get hit by 2 from the guy that steps out from the node. DEAD FADE.
As a fade i wont even engage an Hmg'er unless he's essentially by himself. If he's solo or if there is enough confusion in a fight that i can get to him without him hitting me the whole way.
To see what i'm saying in action, go to ampednews.com and download the rumblefish vs. cold n shaved match demo. You'll see me and Jobo get backed up all the way to smelter room (furnace hive's seige room) from laser drilling (the closest marine rt. We don't even engage the marines once and there were two of us. It would have meant dead fades. When fades cost as much as hives, you don't play risky.
Also go to <a href='http://www.team-terror.net/' target='_blank'>http://www.team-terror.net/</a> and download the terror frag highlight video. This is the best clan in natural selection right now and its got plent of footage of them absolutly rocking the BEST fades in the game. There is one clip where an lmg'er solo's exi.PainUser as a fade. PainUser is one of the best fades there ever was.
In conlcusion, stop whining about things being unfair or inbalanced. No matter what it is. You are most likely being beaten legitimately by a better player. The game's balance has been tested exhaustively. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tha's right . Fades in Classi car efine. It's just in combat when they can get every upgrade possible that they're overpowered.
In fact, in the same match he mentioned, I solo'ed one of runblefish's Fades. Yes, SOLO'ed.
Don't think that fades are invincible, even against a single marine. The fade got overconfident because i was the only marine in base, and came in to kill me. My comm had dropped me a shotgun, but I didn't pick it up and I emptied my LMG clip into the Fade. Then I ran over the shotgun, picked it up, and pumped 3 shots intot he Fade and it died. The Fade only managed to get one swipe into me.
Granted, I think a lot of it was luck, but as expensive as Fades are, they can't afford to take many risks.
RouterBox, do you remember who was the Fade I solo'ed? :-p
In fact, in the same match he mentioned, I solo'ed one of runblefish's Fades. Yes, SOLO'ed.
Don't think that fades are invincible, even against a single marine. The fade got overconfident because i was the only marine in base, and came in to kill me. My comm had dropped me a shotgun, but I didn't pick it up and I emptied my LMG clip into the Fade. Then I ran over the shotgun, picked it up, and pumped 3 shots intot he Fade and it died. The Fade only managed to get one swipe into me.
Granted, I think a lot of it was luck, but as expensive as Fades are, they can't afford to take many risks.
RouterBox, do you remember who was the Fade I solo'ed? :-p <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That fade you solo'd WAS me church.
But before all the ROFL's come, you had a heavy train moving on biodome, and i had 100 res and our alien comm said first fade to die to the heavies gets to onos. TBH though, while i was playing loose, i didn't really mean to die right there, i think i was trying to force a beacon.
The embarassing part was when i went onos and with 2 hives and adren thought i was going to solo the heavy train. Enigma was sitting on the tf and i didn't see him, he didn't get caught in my stomps and when i went in to devour, he ripped me apart.
So after i lost 125 res of lifeforms in roughly a minute and a half i xeno'd a couple times, and went to fade, but our 3 other oni ended the game.
It wasn't a hot end of the game for me.
who are you?
Watch a demo. "Good fades" die all the time.
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silence focus leaping skulks are unbalanced.
webbing gorges are unbalanced.
xeno skulks are unbalanced.
Grenade Launcher spam is unbalanced.
<b>JetPacks are unbalanced.</b>
Having 2 players go fast onos is unbalanced
Spawncamping is unbalanced.
Marine stacking is unbalanced.
10 minute time limit is unbalanced.
<b>And now the entire fade unit is unbalanced. </b>
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You got two right. All the others are tactics, modes of play, not significant game features. I can try to explain the difference more clearly if you want.
To clarify I was referring strictly to Combat.
Also, whoever said that blink uses a lot of energy has obviously never heard of tapping the mouse button. Of course it empties itself fast if you hold it down but you should NEVER EVER DO THAT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES anyway. Maybe a longer tap but not full on holding it down.
I guess I'd like to see blink become something in between what it was in the good ole' 1.04 days and what it is now. Not a buggy piece of crap, but not the single weapon that decides if aliens win or lose.
Whoever said that having fades killing marines constntly doesnt affect rines winning also needs to think things through a bit. How do you kill the rest of that fade's team who are munching on the CC if you all die right when you spawn?
Anyway it's 5 am and im fuggin tired and going to bed. Goodnight.