Maybe its just me, but I have an easy time fragging jetpackers. Wait around a corner and listen for one to come by. Eat them. If they fly away, oh well...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->would put some sort of fear into jps when they see an onos<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fear? Lol I often take out Onii with LA and an HMG solo I pistol whip skulks as they leap towards my teamates I nadespamkill blinking fades.
That is the difference with 3.0 to 1.04. In 1.04 marines were scared of fades and onos. "Oh no fades!!!! gg" was a comman shout when the second hive went up.
Now marines aren't scared of any aliens as they lack any ranged attacks and shotguns and HMGs pwn them all.
Aliens on the other hand are terrifed of marines, from skulks or gorges running away trying to get round a corner from the relentles marine with a shotgun chasing you to get that RFK to the fade desperatly blinking around the level trying to somewhere outside the net of shotgunners.
Yesturday, I single handedly prevented 5 HA marines from building sieges at Viaduct, simply by using adren to spam stomp while unupgraded skulks slowly wore them down. Jps are simply the counter to this admitly rather cheap tactic.
As a previous poster said, the issue is the map dimentions. If jps are too dominant then certain ceilings should be made lower to compensate.
But then, do all maps have to be onos friendly? I guess its more interesting if the choice between fade and onos is map or hive dependant.
How about stomp decreasing the jpers fuel when they're on the ground? It makes sense because jpers need the extra thrust to keep themselves balanced and it keeps them from staying in the air for too long.
<!--QuoteBegin-God Killer+Feb 12 2005, 09:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (God Killer @ Feb 12 2005, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Naaa a lone JP can take down 2 Onos believe me ive seen it 100's of times especially as being a server owner on the game everyday.
On my server thats 2 level 15 Onos and these are skilled players by the way vs 1 skilled level 15 JP and the JP tore them apart!
1 Onos when 1 on 1 against anything should be no contest the winner especially in cramped areas!
JP is over powered in all honesty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos must suck royaly, I could counter with my onos easily 2 jp/hmg of me, unless in a big room. Then onos shouldnt be there.
Jps should be stompable, thats it. Undevourable, yes maybe.
I will say it again, if a jper is too noob to jump over a stomp he deserves to die.
Oh and webs are the apocalypse for jps, almost no skill needed, and can own the best jps in the world. I personaly think its extremely lame, but if you wanna win badly...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ha > jp by far, even against onos<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha for half nubs, Jps for pros. I would bet anything that a team of jps that weld each other every hit is far more superior than the slow heavies.
Welding a heavy to max takes 2 seconds and a half ,about, and whitstands 8 bites. Welding a jp to max takes a half a second and witstands 4 bites.
This is always at 100 hp, so it can be less.
I would say, its about equal but the strategies and posibilities with jp are far superior but requires a bigger load of skill.
And against onos, sorry but, jp all the way and nothing can make me change my idea... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think u will find that in big rooms not hieght wise but floor space wise and corridors without charge an onos is usless against almost any jp even the noob jp!
<!--QuoteBegin-Yash+Feb 12 2005, 10:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yash @ Feb 12 2005, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->JPs require a certain amount of skill to operate. There are going to be alot of dead and complaining newbies if JPs are stompable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LMao!! Jps require minimal skill if you want to put it that way. Yeah and so what if we have a bunch of complaining newbies? Don't get me wrong I love noobs, I like to help them out and try to show them the ropes. But honestly, make things too easy here and all the pros dominate
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fine. Make JPs stompable again, but make them undevourable. Onos can devour way too well even when you're high up in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're kidding right? Ha are so much bigger and yet make jps impervious to devour? thats like saying make the onos impervious to hmg or gls (pick one)
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
If JP's become vulnerable to stomp, then what is the counter to a 2 hive Onos?
You just sit an Onos round the corner from marine spawn and kill anything that comes out. GG. Oni with stomp are deadly enough. Taking away the only thing that can engage them without being frozen in place would make them completely unstoppable. Oni aren't encountered on their own, you know. Even if all they do is stomp, they can set up kills for every other lifeform.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
As for why JP's aren't stompable any more when on the ground in front of an Onos:
It's not predictable or reliable in game. Rather than have it work some of the time for JPs, it was decided to just remove all effects of stomp and take it into account when balancing other aspects.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Feb 18 2005, 06:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 18 2005, 06:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If JP's become vulnerable to stomp, then what is the counter to a 2 hive Onos?
You just sit an Onos round the corner from marine spawn and kill anything that comes out. GG. Oni with stomp are deadly enough. Taking away the only thing that can engage them without being frozen in place would make them completely unstoppable. Oni aren't encountered on their own, you know. Even if all they do is stomp, they can set up kills for every other lifeform. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Grendel is completely right.
Let this topic die already!! JPs remain unstompable. End of story.
You can fly 50 ft in the air to not get hit by a stupid stomp, hello?
If someone is too noob to fly over a stomp he deserves to die, thats it.
end of tread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you can't stomp a jetpacker thats on the ground for that 5% then why not give the jetpacker HE rounds and a billion health. Almost all Co games are ended the same way now. One jetpacker with health drop, ties up the entire team as he kills any skulks trying to evolve. Thats not balance, thats mass murder.
People talk about focus fades being a counter to jps, but last time I focused as a fade, it still two two hits to kill a jper.
Lerks are almost resonable counters, two bites and the marine is done, but due to the Jp's ultra high mobility, .3 seconds is all it takes for a health drop and the marine is alive for another two bites.
Over all what needs to be done is, -Stomp should stun a JP unit, because JP units should be in the air anyways. -Jp units should have slower resupply rates, so that lerks have a chance of getting two focus bites in. (They are the main jp counter, they just need time to kill a jp, which resupply takes away from. -Heavies need a small mobility boost, and maybe enhanced jumping. (It is a suit anyways.) This would allow them to avoid charge a wee bit easier, and makes them more versatile.
Now if jps had to aim for a smaller target (without gls) like an alien com chair, that would make their life so much harder as compared to closing your eyes and always knowing your going to hit the hive.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Feb 18 2005, 03:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 18 2005, 03:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If JP's become vulnerable to stomp, then what is the counter to a 2 hive Onos? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You forgot the part where the JP can FLY.
I don't see why you people are overreacting to this issue like it will destroy the game. It was in effect in beta4a and guess what... marines STILL dominated. Give us a solid, reliable counter to jetpacks other than your lame "focus fade", "xenocide", and "web"... If 3 hives were THAT easy to get, we wouldn't be here complaining would we? And no, I'm not talking about combat here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for why JP's aren't stompable any more when on the ground in front of an Onos:
It's not predictable or reliable in game. Rather than have it work some of the time for JPs, it was decided to just remove all effects of stomp and take it into account when balancing other aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it is removed, there SHOULD be some sort of nerf to compensate for this buff. Before you assume anything, look at heavies which cost more, are slower, and are easily digested compared to jetpacks.
An unbiased cost comparison between JP/HMG and an Onos.
Assuming the teams are 6v6 and there are 12 Res nodes on the map with each team holding 6: Marines receive 6 Res every 4 seconds while our Onos-to-be receives 1 Res every 4 seconds. In order to get jetpacks and an HMG, marines must build/research:
Armory - 10 Res Arms Lab - 20 Res (?) Advanced Armory - 30 Res Proto Lab - 40 Res JP Research - 40 Res (?) JP - 15 Res HMG - 15 Res Total - 170 Res
170 Res / 6 = 28 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each 28 1/3 ticks = 113 1/3 Seconds
Our Onos-to-be requires 75 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds. 75 / 1 = 75 ticks of 4 seconds each 75 ticks = 300 seconds
Now, we can safely assume that the marines have upgrades, but I'm not sure whether it is fair to include them in these calculations, as they benefit the whole team. For example, though, I will:
Base HMG/JP - 170 Res Weapons 1+2+3 - 90 Res Armor 1+2+3 - 90 Res Total - 350 Res
350 Res / 6 = 58 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each 58 1/3 ticks = 233 1/3 seconds
Even after including W3 and A3, it still takes over one minute longer for an alien to save for Onos than it does for marines to save for an HMG/JP with full upgrades. Arguably, the Onos is worth more than an HMG/JP. I, however, believe a Fade to be worth more than an Onos, so here is the time for a Fade:
A fade requires 50 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds. 50 / 1 = 50 ticks of 4 seconds each 50 ticks = 200 seconds
It takes over a minute longer for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP. It takes about half a minute shorter for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP.
Three things to take into account when viewing these numbers: Marines upgrades can continue after the marine gets an HMG/JP. This means that you can get the unupgraded marine a minute before the fade and by the time the fade is available, you can almost have a marine at W2+A2.
The distance between the times will vary depending on the number of res nodes held by the teams, including if there are more/less res nodes on the map and the teams have equal control.
These numbers do not take into account the research/build times for marine tech or the gestation times for aliens. If someone gets me those numbers, I'll fix this.
<!--QuoteBegin-JNighthawk+Feb 26 2005, 06:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JNighthawk @ Feb 26 2005, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> An unbiased cost comparison between JP/HMG and an Onos.
Assuming the teams are 6v6 and there are 12 Res nodes on the map with each team holding 6: Marines receive 6 Res every 4 seconds while our Onos-to-be receives 1 Res every 4 seconds. In order to get jetpacks and an HMG, marines must build/research:
Armory - 10 Res Arms Lab - 20 Res (?) Advanced Armory - 30 Res Proto Lab - 40 Res JP Research - 40 Res (?) JP - 15 Res HMG - 15 Res Total - 170 Res
170 Res / 6 = 28 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each 28 1/3 ticks = 113 1/3 Seconds
Our Onos-to-be requires 75 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds. 75 / 1 = 75 ticks of 4 seconds each 75 ticks = 300 seconds
Now, we can safely assume that the marines have upgrades, but I'm not sure whether it is fair to include them in these calculations, as they benefit the whole team. For example, though, I will:
Base HMG/JP - 170 Res Weapons 1+2+3 - 90 Res Armor 1+2+3 - 90 Res Total - 350 Res
350 Res / 6 = 58 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each 58 1/3 ticks = 233 1/3 seconds
Even after including W3 and A3, it still takes over one minute longer for an alien to save for Onos than it does for marines to save for an HMG/JP with full upgrades. Arguably, the Onos is worth more than an HMG/JP. I, however, believe a Fade to be worth more than an Onos, so here is the time for a Fade:
A fade requires 50 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds. 50 / 1 = 50 ticks of 4 seconds each 50 ticks = 200 seconds
It takes over a minute longer for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP. It takes about half a minute shorter for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP.
Three things to take into account when viewing these numbers: Marines upgrades can continue after the marine gets an HMG/JP. This means that you can get the unupgraded marine a minute before the fade and by the time the fade is available, you can almost have a marine at W2+A2.
The distance between the times will vary depending on the number of res nodes held by the teams, including if there are more/less res nodes on the map and the teams have equal control.
These numbers do not take into account the research/build times for marine tech or the gestation times for aliens. If someone gets me those numbers, I'll fix this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I admire your work, but... my argument is not entirely about the costs of the onos vs costs of jetpacks.
I'm wondering why it costs more to have heavy armor, than jetpacks, which arguably has more benefits.
Not only that, but jetpacks have no reliable counter at 2 hives as opposed to heavies, which cost more, can be easily devoured by onoses. You tell me xenocide, web, and focus fades. These are hive 3 options people, if hive 3 is up, the game is over already.
Jetpacks benefit skilled players immensely compared to a heavy. Since jetpacks are cheaper than heavies, I believe they need a reliable counter at hive 2.
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Feb 27 2005, 02:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Feb 27 2005, 02:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I admire your work, but... my argument is not entirely about the costs of the onos vs costs of jetpacks.
I'm wondering why it costs more to have heavy armor, than jetpacks, which arguably has more benefits.
Not only that, but jetpacks have no reliable counter at 2 hives as opposed to heavies, which cost more, can be easily devoured by onoses. You tell me xenocide, web, and focus fades. These are hive 3 options people, if hive 3 is up, the game is over already.
Jetpacks benefit skilled players immensely compared to a heavy. Since jetpacks are cheaper than heavies, I believe they need a reliable counter at hive 2. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i pretty much completely agree with everything here.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Feb 27 2005, 10:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 27 2005, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jetpacks are cheap because they are worthless in the hands of an unskilled operator and deadly in the hands of a pro.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> By that logic, shouldn't fades be cheap? Also isn't that precisely the complaint, that in skilled hands the jetpack effectively makes heavy armour obsolete in comparison?
Personally I agree that the jetpack should have a counter lower in the alien tech, but not that the counter should ever be the onos. I'd prefer something like the OC be used, but I guess that isn't going to happen.
why can a jetpack fly insanely fast forward or left to right? last i checked those jets only face down so it was seem that a point of a jet pack is to reach high places, NOT OUT MANUVER A WHOLE ALIEN TEAM. the manuverability for jetpacks are very, very wrong.
if the manuverability is not changed theni suggest giving them less fuel or actually having to purchase fuel or get it from the armory.
ok so you're saying that nothing should be able to kill an Onos? ok well...you must be an alien wh0re. it goes like this: aliens don't need as much teamwork as the marines, but still need to help each other. an Onos fighting 3 HA's with support of 1 or 2 Lerks' Umbra will win easily. Just devour the first one, and stomp/gore the other 2 with focus upgrade. Which is probably why they made JPs unstompable...it's the only thing that can counter an Onos as where Lerks and even some really good Fades own JPs. it's perfect the way it is. Lerk just needs to be 35 res though =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->aliens don't need as much teamwork as the marines<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First fof, welcome to the forums <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Secondly, I laughed when I read that quote.
All Marines need are 1-2 Marines to go building res towers (2 for 1 to cover) while the rest go off ramboing and whatnot taking out gorges and skulks as well as Alien RTS. Aliens have to take responsibility to get everyone organized and find out who's dropping the hive, whos dropping the Chambers and whos dropping the RTS. Not only do they have to build their rts, they Must Keep them Alive. 1 RT drops quickly to a knifer, if no aliens go to save it.... its gone
Marines simply need to electrify the RTS. Now that costs res yes, but thats another story.
in 1.04 Aliens didn't need as much teamwork at all with the pool of res. But Now since 2.0 Aliens have needed 10 times more teamwork then Marines in order to win.
**Note, this is considering its a evenly skilled team vs another evenly skilled team.**
And as to unstompable JP's. Since ive mastered Devour I really dont have much a problem with em Since I lure them into small cielinged areas instead of going gun hoe into an open area which is just silly.
The aliens require the same if not more teamwork than the marines. Both teams work better when working as a team, but when either team has players that don't want to work together, the chances of them losing increases, more with the aliens than with the marines. Because if its a good comm, those that aren't working with the team won't get any res assigned to them, whereas aliens get a res flow.
Well, I myself don't find jp's too much to handle an ns maps, but in those co maps where you have a small cramped hive :/ there a pain. I don't really like to play co that much, but i think on like faceoff the hive is stuck in a cylander shaped room with 2 halves cut out. Well the hive stoops so low that an onos has to duck and walk to get to the other side, where as a jp can just take a 1/2 second to manuever from the sides. The process of the Onos to get to the other side and get normal function is about 5 seconds, and that is invariably longer than the marine would b. Also the fade blinking that starts blinking forward lack the mobility to shift to the left or right, so a jp can juke him out. And to top it off even if a fade does manage to get a hit on the marine, a happy little resupply will renew it for another 2 hits.
Maybe this makes sense maybe it doesnt i just wrote this off the top of my head, and didnt check for grammer and stuff.
Comments
Wait around a corner and listen for one to come by. Eat them.
If they fly away, oh well...
Fear? Lol
I often take out Onii with LA and an HMG solo
I pistol whip skulks as they leap towards my teamates
I nadespamkill blinking fades.
I KNOW NO FEAR!
That is the difference with 3.0 to 1.04. In 1.04 marines were scared of fades and onos. "Oh no fades!!!! gg" was a comman shout when the second hive went up.
Now marines aren't scared of any aliens as they lack any ranged attacks and shotguns and HMGs pwn them all.
Aliens on the other hand are terrifed of marines, from skulks or gorges running away trying to get round a corner from the relentles marine with a shotgun chasing you to get that RFK to the fade desperatly blinking around the level trying to somewhere outside the net of shotgunners.
As a previous poster said, the issue is the map dimentions. If jps are too dominant then certain ceilings should be made lower to compensate.
But then, do all maps have to be onos friendly? I guess its more interesting if the choice between fade and onos is map or hive dependant.
On my server thats 2 level 15 Onos and these are skilled players by the way vs 1 skilled level 15 JP and the JP tore them apart!
1 Onos when 1 on 1 against anything should be no contest the winner especially in cramped areas!
JP is over powered in all honesty<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos must suck royaly, I could counter with my onos easily 2 jp/hmg of me, unless in a big room. Then onos shouldnt be there.
Jps should be stompable, thats it. Undevourable, yes maybe.
I will say it again, if a jper is too noob to jump over a stomp he deserves to die.
Oh and webs are the apocalypse for jps, almost no skill needed, and can own the best jps in the world. I personaly think its extremely lame, but if you wanna win badly...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ha > jp by far, even against onos<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha for half nubs, Jps for pros. I would bet anything that a team of jps that weld each other every hit is far more superior than the slow heavies.
Welding a heavy to max takes 2 seconds and a half ,about, and whitstands 8 bites.
Welding a jp to max takes a half a second and witstands 4 bites.
This is always at 100 hp, so it can be less.
I would say, its about equal but the strategies and posibilities with jp are far superior but requires a bigger load of skill.
And against onos, sorry but, jp all the way and nothing can make me change my idea... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think u will find that in big rooms not hieght wise but floor space wise and corridors without charge an onos is usless against almost any jp even the noob jp!
It is called supreme manouverability!
There are going to be alot of dead and complaining newbies if JPs are stompable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LMao!! Jps require minimal skill if you want to put it that way. Yeah and so what if we have a bunch of complaining newbies? Don't get me wrong I love noobs, I like to help them out and try to show them the ropes. But honestly, make things too easy here and all the pros dominate
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fine. Make JPs stompable again, but make them undevourable. Onos can devour way too well even when you're high up in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're kidding right? Ha are so much bigger and yet make jps impervious to devour? thats like saying make the onos impervious to hmg or gls (pick one)
You just sit an Onos round the corner from marine spawn and kill anything that comes out. GG. Oni with stomp are deadly enough. Taking away the only thing that can engage them without being frozen in place would make them completely unstoppable. Oni aren't encountered on their own, you know. Even if all they do is stomp, they can set up kills for every other lifeform.
It's not predictable or reliable in game. Rather than have it work some of the time for JPs, it was decided to just remove all effects of stomp and take it into account when balancing other aspects.
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You just sit an Onos round the corner from marine spawn and kill anything that comes out. GG. Oni with stomp are deadly enough. Taking away the only thing that can engage them without being frozen in place would make them completely unstoppable. Oni aren't encountered on their own, you know. Even if all they do is stomp, they can set up kills for every other lifeform. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grendel is completely right.
Let this topic die already!!
JPs remain unstompable. End of story.
You can fly 50 ft in the air to not get hit by a stupid stomp, hello?
If someone is too noob to fly over a stomp he deserves to die, thats it.
end of tread <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Stomp, affects ground targets.
Jetpackers fly for 95% of the time.
If you can't stomp a jetpacker thats on the ground for that 5% then why not give the jetpacker HE rounds and a billion health. Almost all Co games are ended the same way now. One jetpacker with health drop, ties up the entire team as he kills any skulks trying to evolve. Thats not balance, thats mass murder.
People talk about focus fades being a counter to jps, but last time I focused as a fade, it still two two hits to kill a jper.
Lerks are almost resonable counters, two bites and the marine is done, but due to the Jp's ultra high mobility, .3 seconds is all it takes for a health drop and the marine is alive for another two bites.
Over all what needs to be done is,
-Stomp should stun a JP unit, because JP units should be in the air anyways.
-Jp units should have slower resupply rates, so that lerks have a chance of getting two focus bites in. (They are the main jp counter, they just need time to kill a jp, which resupply takes away from.
-Heavies need a small mobility boost, and maybe enhanced jumping. (It is a suit anyways.) This would allow them to avoid charge a wee bit easier, and makes them more versatile.
Now if jps had to aim for a smaller target (without gls) like an alien com chair, that would make their life so much harder as compared to closing your eyes and always knowing your going to hit the hive.
You forgot the part where the JP can FLY.
I don't see why you people are overreacting to this issue like it will destroy the game. It was in effect in beta4a and guess what... marines STILL dominated. Give us a solid, reliable counter to jetpacks other than your lame "focus fade", "xenocide", and "web"... If 3 hives were THAT easy to get, we wouldn't be here complaining would we? And no, I'm not talking about combat here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for why JP's aren't stompable any more when on the ground in front of an Onos:
It's not predictable or reliable in game. Rather than have it work some of the time for JPs, it was decided to just remove all effects of stomp and take it into account when balancing other aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it is removed, there SHOULD be some sort of nerf to compensate for this buff. Before you assume anything, look at heavies which cost more, are slower, and are easily digested compared to jetpacks.
Assuming the teams are 6v6 and there are 12 Res nodes on the map with each team holding 6: Marines receive 6 Res every 4 seconds while our Onos-to-be receives 1 Res every 4 seconds. In order to get jetpacks and an HMG, marines must build/research:
Armory - 10 Res
Arms Lab - 20 Res (?)
Advanced Armory - 30 Res
Proto Lab - 40 Res
JP Research - 40 Res (?)
JP - 15 Res
HMG - 15 Res
Total - 170 Res
170 Res / 6 = 28 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each
28 1/3 ticks = 113 1/3 Seconds
Our Onos-to-be requires 75 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds.
75 / 1 = 75 ticks of 4 seconds each
75 ticks = 300 seconds
Now, we can safely assume that the marines have upgrades, but I'm not sure whether it is fair to include them in these calculations, as they benefit the whole team. For example, though, I will:
Base HMG/JP - 170 Res
Weapons 1+2+3 - 90 Res
Armor 1+2+3 - 90 Res
Total - 350 Res
350 Res / 6 = 58 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each
58 1/3 ticks = 233 1/3 seconds
Even after including W3 and A3, it still takes over one minute longer for an alien to save for Onos than it does for marines to save for an HMG/JP with full upgrades. Arguably, the Onos is worth more than an HMG/JP. I, however, believe a Fade to be worth more than an Onos, so here is the time for a Fade:
A fade requires 50 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds.
50 / 1 = 50 ticks of 4 seconds each
50 ticks = 200 seconds
It takes over a minute longer for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP. It takes about half a minute shorter for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP.
Three things to take into account when viewing these numbers: Marines upgrades can continue after the marine gets an HMG/JP. This means that you can get the unupgraded marine a minute before the fade and by the time the fade is available, you can almost have a marine at W2+A2.
The distance between the times will vary depending on the number of res nodes held by the teams, including if there are more/less res nodes on the map and the teams have equal control.
These numbers do not take into account the research/build times for marine tech or the gestation times for aliens. If someone gets me those numbers, I'll fix this.
Assuming the teams are 6v6 and there are 12 Res nodes on the map with each team holding 6: Marines receive 6 Res every 4 seconds while our Onos-to-be receives 1 Res every 4 seconds. In order to get jetpacks and an HMG, marines must build/research:
Armory - 10 Res
Arms Lab - 20 Res (?)
Advanced Armory - 30 Res
Proto Lab - 40 Res
JP Research - 40 Res (?)
JP - 15 Res
HMG - 15 Res
Total - 170 Res
170 Res / 6 = 28 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each
28 1/3 ticks = 113 1/3 Seconds
Our Onos-to-be requires 75 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds.
75 / 1 = 75 ticks of 4 seconds each
75 ticks = 300 seconds
Now, we can safely assume that the marines have upgrades, but I'm not sure whether it is fair to include them in these calculations, as they benefit the whole team. For example, though, I will:
Base HMG/JP - 170 Res
Weapons 1+2+3 - 90 Res
Armor 1+2+3 - 90 Res
Total - 350 Res
350 Res / 6 = 58 1/3 ticks of 4 seconds each
58 1/3 ticks = 233 1/3 seconds
Even after including W3 and A3, it still takes over one minute longer for an alien to save for Onos than it does for marines to save for an HMG/JP with full upgrades. Arguably, the Onos is worth more than an HMG/JP. I, however, believe a Fade to be worth more than an Onos, so here is the time for a Fade:
A fade requires 50 resources, receiving one every 4 seconds.
50 / 1 = 50 ticks of 4 seconds each
50 ticks = 200 seconds
It takes over a minute longer for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP. It takes about half a minute shorter for an alien to go Fade than it does for marines to get an unupgraded HMG/JP.
Three things to take into account when viewing these numbers: Marines upgrades can continue after the marine gets an HMG/JP. This means that you can get the unupgraded marine a minute before the fade and by the time the fade is available, you can almost have a marine at W2+A2.
The distance between the times will vary depending on the number of res nodes held by the teams, including if there are more/less res nodes on the map and the teams have equal control.
These numbers do not take into account the research/build times for marine tech or the gestation times for aliens. If someone gets me those numbers, I'll fix this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I admire your work, but... my argument is not entirely about the costs of the onos vs costs of jetpacks.
I'm wondering why it costs more to have heavy armor, than jetpacks, which arguably has more benefits.
Not only that, but jetpacks have no reliable counter at 2 hives as opposed to heavies, which cost more, can be easily devoured by onoses. You tell me xenocide, web, and focus fades. These are hive 3 options people, if hive 3 is up, the game is over already.
Jetpacks benefit skilled players immensely compared to a heavy. Since jetpacks are cheaper than heavies, I believe they need a reliable counter at hive 2.
I admire your work, but... my argument is not entirely about the costs of the onos vs costs of jetpacks.
I'm wondering why it costs more to have heavy armor, than jetpacks, which arguably has more benefits.
Not only that, but jetpacks have no reliable counter at 2 hives as opposed to heavies, which cost more, can be easily devoured by onoses. You tell me xenocide, web, and focus fades. These are hive 3 options people, if hive 3 is up, the game is over already.
Jetpacks benefit skilled players immensely compared to a heavy. Since jetpacks are cheaper than heavies, I believe they need a reliable counter at hive 2. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i pretty much completely agree with everything here.
By that logic, shouldn't fades be cheap? Also isn't that precisely the complaint, that in skilled hands the jetpack effectively makes heavy armour obsolete in comparison?
Personally I agree that the jetpack should have a counter lower in the alien tech, but not that the counter should ever be the onos. I'd prefer something like the OC be used, but I guess that isn't going to happen.
why can a jetpack fly insanely fast forward or left to right? last i checked those jets only face down so it was seem that a point of a jet pack is to reach high places, NOT OUT MANUVER A WHOLE ALIEN TEAM. the manuverability for jetpacks are very, very wrong.
if the manuverability is not changed theni suggest giving them less fuel or actually having to purchase fuel or get it from the armory.
First fof, welcome to the forums <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Secondly, I laughed when I read that quote.
All Marines need are 1-2 Marines to go building res towers (2 for 1 to cover) while the rest go off ramboing and whatnot taking out gorges and skulks as well as Alien RTS.
Aliens have to take responsibility to get everyone organized and find out who's dropping the hive, whos dropping the Chambers and whos dropping the RTS. Not only do they have to build their rts, they Must Keep them Alive. 1 RT drops quickly to a knifer, if no aliens go to save it.... its gone
Marines simply need to electrify the RTS. Now that costs res yes, but thats another story.
in 1.04 Aliens didn't need as much teamwork at all with the pool of res. But Now since 2.0 Aliens have needed 10 times more teamwork then Marines in order to win.
**Note, this is considering its a evenly skilled team vs another evenly skilled team.**
And as to unstompable JP's. Since ive mastered Devour I really dont have much a problem with em Since I lure them into small cielinged areas instead of going gun hoe into an open area which is just silly.
Maybe this makes sense maybe it doesnt i just wrote this off the top of my head, and didnt check for grammer and stuff.