<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> altair keep that vent near ms when u crouch jump inside in that roof pipe u can fall inside the vent and walk when u crouch u stuck?
they didnt turn the worldspawn water into func_water entitys, therefore all aliens and alien structures under the water are practically indestructible from all types of damage, well all except for sieges anyway...
<!--QuoteBegin-GiGaBiTe+Mar 8 2005, 10:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GiGaBiTe @ Mar 8 2005, 10:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they didnt turn the worldspawn water into func_water entitys, therefore all aliens and alien structures under the water are practically indestructible from all types of damage, well all except for sieges anyway... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They?
It definatly got better, but there are still some things to improve:
1. Increase the contrast and lightning variation. The whole light colour is to monotonous, some greenish colours in the hive and maybe more blueish ones in the marine parts might help. Also toy around with the env_gamma entity aswell as the -gamma parameter for rad. Another thing I've noticed is this:
I can't guarantee for anything but it might help spicing things up.
2. Maybe it's me but your geometry feels kinda blocky. Try adding more diagonal brushes and detail in the wall. Your R_Speeds are still at an avarage 300-400 so you have some room to add things.
3. The texture set you're using is very grey, either changing the whole texture or adding yellow or red lights to the walls (maybe light_spots shining down the walls?) might help.
I hope this helps, but in the end it's still the mapper who decides on what to change with his map. So, Good Luck !
Paladin: The variation is due to the thinner and higher number of bars. I used the same technique in one of my own maps <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Its much better now, but still suffers from the same problems as the previous release. Namely lack of clearly identifiable key areas or chokepoints (e.g Tanith's Chemical and Reactor Room areas). Party due to the layout, party due to all the rooms looking extremely similar.
Regarding the layout, its extremely easy to take a random path through the centre areas and not meet a single enemy. Other than the obvious hive and rts, Its not clear which areas an alien team should defend.
Sorry to get personal here, but i think another problem is the mapper being overly sensitive. Most of his defense is "well i worked really really hard!" or "well shucks i didnt get any feedback!" and "the new version im working on is different, so this feedback is irrelevent" instead of addressing the flaws head on.
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Mar 8 2005, 01:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Mar 8 2005, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry to get personal here, but i think another problem is the mapper being overly sensitive. Most of his defense is "well i worked really really hard!" or "well shucks i didnt get any feedback!" and "the new version im working on is different, so this feedback is irrelevent" instead of addressing the flaws head on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only problem here is people don't give me specifics to work with.
<!--QuoteBegin-Paladin+Mar 8 2005, 10:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Paladin @ Mar 8 2005, 10:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It definatly got better, but there are still some things to improve:
1. Increase the contrast and lightning variation. The whole light colour is to monotonous, some greenish colours in the hive and maybe more blueish ones in the marine parts might help. Also toy around with the env_gamma entity aswell as the -gamma parameter for rad. Another thing I've noticed is this:
I can't guarantee for anything but it might help spicing things up.
2. Maybe it's me but your geometry feels kinda blocky. Try adding more diagonal brushes and detail in the wall. Your R_Speeds are still at an avarage 300-400 so you have some room to add things.
3. The texture set you're using is very grey, either changing the whole texture or adding yellow or red lights to the walls (maybe light_spots shining down the walls?) might help.
I hope this helps, but in the end it's still the mapper who decides on what to change with his map. So, Good Luck ! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hated the nothing light effect ever since. it simply looks wrong to me. and the bars are a waste of faces.
the neew version of altair is much better, at least we see some originality after the "refresh". however I barely played the old version so I cant say anything useful regarding the changes. besides I just hate this stairway in one of the hives. AAAH!!! "its tha stairs again!!!111" the violett light emitted from the screens looks interesting but unfortunately the corridors are lit in a very common way. you should really add some more color and variety.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only problem here is people don't give me specifics to work with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, im wondering why you arent noticing them yourself. And if you do notice, why are problems with the last version repeated or left unchanged.
Having said that, I'd be happy to do a more detailed breakdown when ive had a more detailed look at the map.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Mar 8 2005, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Mar 8 2005, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Spacer a little respect for KFDM, please? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Respect for KFDM? I do have respect for KFDM. I also think that Altair has got better, but it still looks really bad. Shh, child.
KFDM: It's hard to give specifics on looks. You need to bear in mind certain things that look nice to the eye, ie complimentry colours. Also, a set, recognisable theme for altairs textures and architecture would be nice. If you look at co_sava/ns_selene, it has a very stark, recognisable yelgrey texture set, separated with those misc_doortrack pillars. The same goes for ns_veil/ns_eclipse, with warm lighting and using similar angles in the door frames and support pillars. Altairs corridors are just boxes with wall_grey textures. You should create some sort of architectual feature (co_sava/ns_selenes misc_doortrack pillars (http://mendasp.thezazi.net/maps/ns_selene/ns_selene05.jpg) or ns_eclipse/ns_veils repeated angles (http://www.ena-clan.be/images/ns3.4/eclipse_30beta4_4.jpg) and repeat its usage throughout the map. Dunno if that's specific enough >_>
About 1 week after Altair was first out I wrote a very lengthy response listing all of the aesthetic problems I found with the original. Then I made a second one with all of the gameplay problems that I could see and give advice for.
I think that you constantly denying that people have given you feedback is not entirely true.
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Mar 8 2005, 02:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Mar 8 2005, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing is, im wondering why you arent noticing them yourself. And if you do notice, why are problems with the last version repeated or left unchanged.
Having said that, I'd be happy to do a more detailed breakdown when ive had a more detailed look at the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well when you work on a project for as long as I have been working on Altair, you see it in a different way. Go ahead and give me a detailed breakdown.
<!--QuoteBegin-Spacer+Mar 8 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spacer @ Mar 8 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Also, a set, recognisable theme for altairs textures and architecture would be nice. ..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I thought I had made a unique theme but I'll see if I can make it more pronounced.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Mar 8 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Mar 8 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About 1 week after Altair was first out I wrote a very lengthy response listing all of the aesthetic problems I found with the original. Then I made a second one with all of the gameplay problems that I could see and give advice for.
I think that you constantly denying that people have given you feedback is not entirely true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And if you follow my posts, everytime someone gives me suggestions I do my best to see what I can fix. Having done a search on your posts I think I did fix many of the issues that you pointed out. The problem is most of the time people do not give useful feedback. I stand by my statement.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Mar 8 2005, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Mar 8 2005, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Spacer+Mar 8 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spacer @ Mar 8 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Also, a set, recognisable theme for altairs textures and architecture would be nice. ..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I thought I had made a unique theme but I'll see if I can make it more pronounced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think what spacer is referring to is the usage and variation in combination of effects used in the texture set. To me, it screams out "kestrel" not "altair". Just as whenever I see wall_lab it screams "eclipse" and not "custom map title".
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2005
im kinda along with UKchaos.. i dont get how u don't see the problems yourself, most of them are so obvious. the biggest is poor lighting... who designs a hall to only be lit my a monitor in the wall, there should be many other lights around. y is the a hall, with 4 of the same monitor set pasted into the walls 4 times, this would never happen in acuality. many of the halls and rooms are just boxes with stuff inside. just about all of the stairs look pretty bad. i can't really get into it, its just, everything, its all very big and clunky. go take a look at visually appealing maps, compare to yours, and see what u come up with. this is something you should be able to figure out on your own honestly, being a lvl designer, with somethin looking so poorly, there are thousands of ways to fix it up. i suggest starting with learning how to properly light a map. the contrast is really poor in the lighting.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
sry if it came off as a personal shot, but everyone has been telling u the same things for a while now. i know ive seen many ppl tell u about the lighting, but u have not done a thing to adjust that, uve been told its very boxy for a long time, that has not changed. some of us are getting aggrivated tellin u the same things over and over again.
He nearly relight the entire map, in fact he did so twice, once after it was released in Beta5 and then again after we ran through it and made notes on places we felt were too dark. So how can you possibly propagate the idea that he hasn't touched that aspect and you are sick of telling him about it?
<!--QuoteBegin-JazzX+Mar 9 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JazzX @ Mar 9 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He nearly relight the entire map, in fact he did so twice, once after it was released in Beta5 and then again after we ran through it and made notes on places we felt were too dark. So how can you possibly propagate the idea that he hasn't touched that aspect and you are sick of telling him about it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the actual quality of the lighting is the same as the last version. It <i>looks</i> like its barely been touched.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2005
im not talking about brightening things, dark corners.. im talking about adding contrast in the lighting.. u should never have 1 or 2 lights used to light an entire hall or room. never. accent lighting, small lights. just take a look at some high quality maps and u will see what is being talked about. ns_nothing has some of the squarest and blockiest rooms ive seen, but u never notice them cause the lighting is so well done. lighting contrast is high in this map.
im thinkin of way to help u out.. hmm.. just had another run around altair.. yeah, u should not have 1 light workin an entire room.. u have lights in the ceiling that emit the entire room, u have lights in the wall, that emit the entire room. try not angling the lights towards the center of room. this is whats making everything look boxy cause the light reachs all parts of the room. u need to break it up. 1 light should not work an entire room. try putting lights on the walls that point down, or up, or just to the sides, but not to the middle of room/hall... also, monitors, u have the brightness up way to high on those, and they should not be used to light a room, they can accent, but should not be the primary light source. when was the last time u saw an entire hall using the monitors as its light source, it doesn't work. your architecture is getting better i have to admit, but the poor poor lighting is still making it blocky. u also need get better with your textureing, there are some spots that are just ugly. u have to think realistically about the things u do, does it look right, does it look like a real room. the entire map just shouts "GAME, THIS IS A GAME" you don't want that, u want it to look like a real environment. i would love to take the source nd show u some of the changes im talkin about.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
i threw a pic together quickly of a simple suggestion. i circled a the stairs cause the texture should not wrap from the wall onto the stairs, not that texture anyway, it just looks out of place.. nd, the yellow on the wall is a suggested spot light or somethin along those lines, hanging from the ceiling, but pointing at the wall, just simple things like that would spice things up.
Comments
They?
1. Increase the contrast and lightning variation.
The whole light colour is to monotonous, some greenish colours in the hive and maybe more blueish ones in the marine parts might help.
Also toy around with the env_gamma entity aswell as the -gamma parameter for rad.
Another thing I've noticed is this:
<img src='http://home.arcor.de/leveldesigner/stuff/ns_altair.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Try to make the bars a few units below the actual light, this results in more variation as it can be seen in ns_nothing:
<img src='http://home.arcor.de/leveldesigner/stuff/ns_nothing.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I can't guarantee for anything but it might help spicing things up.
2. Maybe it's me but your geometry feels kinda blocky. Try adding more diagonal brushes and detail in the wall. Your R_Speeds are still at an avarage 300-400 so you have some room to add things.
3. The texture set you're using is very grey, either changing the whole texture or adding yellow or red lights to the walls (maybe light_spots shining down the walls?) might help.
I hope this helps, but in the end it's still the mapper who decides on what to change with his map. So, Good Luck !
Altair is getting better I agree.
Paladin: The variation is due to the thinner and higher number of bars. I used the same technique in one of my own maps <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Regarding the layout, its extremely easy to take a random path through the centre areas and not meet a single enemy. Other than the obvious hive and rts, Its not clear which areas an alien team should defend.
Sorry to get personal here, but i think another problem is the mapper being overly sensitive. Most of his defense is "well i worked really really hard!" or "well shucks i didnt get any feedback!" and "the new version im working on is different, so this feedback is irrelevent" instead of addressing the flaws head on.
The only problem here is people don't give me specifics to work with.
1. Increase the contrast and lightning variation.
The whole light colour is to monotonous, some greenish colours in the hive and maybe more blueish ones in the marine parts might help.
Also toy around with the env_gamma entity aswell as the -gamma parameter for rad.
Another thing I've noticed is this:
<img src='http://home.arcor.de/leveldesigner/stuff/ns_altair.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Try to make the bars a few units below the actual light, this results in more variation as it can be seen in ns_nothing:
<img src='http://home.arcor.de/leveldesigner/stuff/ns_nothing.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
I can't guarantee for anything but it might help spicing things up.
2. Maybe it's me but your geometry feels kinda blocky. Try adding more diagonal brushes and detail in the wall. Your R_Speeds are still at an avarage 300-400 so you have some room to add things.
3. The texture set you're using is very grey, either changing the whole texture or adding yellow or red lights to the walls (maybe light_spots shining down the walls?) might help.
I hope this helps, but in the end it's still the mapper who decides on what to change with his map. So, Good Luck ! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hated the nothing light effect ever since. it simply looks wrong to me. and the bars are a waste of faces.
the neew version of altair is much better, at least we see some originality after the "refresh". however I barely played the old version so I cant say anything useful regarding the changes. besides I just hate this stairway in one of the hives. AAAH!!! "its tha stairs again!!!111"
the violett light emitted from the screens looks interesting but unfortunately the corridors are lit in a very common way. you should really add some more color and variety.
The thing is, im wondering why you arent noticing them yourself. And if you do notice, why are problems with the last version repeated or left unchanged.
Having said that, I'd be happy to do a more detailed breakdown when ive had a more detailed look at the map.
Respect for KFDM? I do have respect for KFDM. I also think that Altair has got better, but it still looks really bad. Shh, child.
KFDM: It's hard to give specifics on looks. You need to bear in mind certain things that look nice to the eye, ie complimentry colours. Also, a set, recognisable theme for altairs textures and architecture would be nice. If you look at co_sava/ns_selene, it has a very stark, recognisable yelgrey texture set, separated with those misc_doortrack pillars. The same goes for ns_veil/ns_eclipse, with warm lighting and using similar angles in the door frames and support pillars. Altairs corridors are just boxes with wall_grey textures. You should create some sort of architectual feature (co_sava/ns_selenes misc_doortrack pillars (http://mendasp.thezazi.net/maps/ns_selene/ns_selene05.jpg) or ns_eclipse/ns_veils repeated angles (http://www.ena-clan.be/images/ns3.4/eclipse_30beta4_4.jpg) and repeat its usage throughout the map.
Dunno if that's specific enough >_>
I think that you constantly denying that people have given you feedback is not entirely true.
Having said that, I'd be happy to do a more detailed breakdown when ive had a more detailed look at the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well when you work on a project for as long as I have been working on Altair, you see it in a different way. Go ahead and give me a detailed breakdown.
<!--QuoteBegin-Spacer+Mar 8 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spacer @ Mar 8 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Also, a set, recognisable theme for altairs textures and architecture would be nice. ..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I thought I had made a unique theme but I'll see if I can make it more pronounced.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Mar 8 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Mar 8 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About 1 week after Altair was first out I wrote a very lengthy response listing all of the aesthetic problems I found with the original. Then I made a second one with all of the gameplay problems that I could see and give advice for.
I think that you constantly denying that people have given you feedback is not entirely true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And if you follow my posts, everytime someone gives me suggestions I do my best to see what I can fix. Having done a search on your posts I think I did fix many of the issues that you pointed out. The problem is most of the time people do not give useful feedback. I stand by my statement.
I think what spacer is referring to is the usage and variation in combination of effects used in the texture set. To me, it screams out "kestrel" not "altair". Just as whenever I see wall_lab it screams "eclipse" and not "custom map title".
many of the halls and rooms are just boxes with stuff inside. just about all of the stairs look pretty bad. i can't really get into it, its just, everything, its all very big and clunky.
go take a look at visually appealing maps, compare to yours, and see what u come up with. this is something you should be able to figure out on your own honestly, being a lvl designer, with somethin looking so poorly, there are thousands of ways to fix it up. i suggest starting with learning how to properly light a map. the contrast is really poor in the lighting.
Because the actual quality of the lighting is the same as the last version. It <i>looks</i> like its barely been touched.
ns_nothing has some of the squarest and blockiest rooms ive seen, but u never notice them cause the lighting is so well done. lighting contrast is high in this map.
im thinkin of way to help u out.. hmm.. just had another run around altair.. yeah, u should not have 1 light workin an entire room.. u have lights in the ceiling that emit the entire room, u have lights in the wall, that emit the entire room. try not angling the lights towards the center of room. this is whats making everything look boxy cause the light reachs all parts of the room. u need to break it up. 1 light should not work an entire room. try putting lights on the walls that point down, or up, or just to the sides, but not to the middle of room/hall... also, monitors, u have the brightness up way to high on those, and they should not be used to light a room, they can accent, but should not be the primary light source. when was the last time u saw an entire hall using the monitors as its light source, it doesn't work. your architecture is getting better i have to admit, but the poor poor lighting is still making it blocky. u also need get better with your textureing, there are some spots that are just ugly. u have to think realistically about the things u do, does it look right, does it look like a real room. the entire map just shouts "GAME, THIS IS A GAME" you don't want that, u want it to look like a real environment. i would love to take the source nd show u some of the changes im talkin about.