im not even that good as rine, but i can EASILY see 90% cloaked skulks walking towords me, and skulks that are running or even bunnhoping are just as easy to spot as none cloaked aliens.
and all it takes is one shot and then the skulk is completly visable again, and they have to wait 3 seconds to re-cloak.
i think if the alien uses an attack, he should uncloak and have to wait for 3 seconds.
but if the alien is just shot, it recloaks in 0.5 seconds, so the marine has to keep shooting it to keep it uncloaked
cloaking just isn't fun. Sure, it may be balanced and marines may win at the end, but it's just not fun.
It's not fun not being able to see your enemies and not being able to do anything about them. I don't see how marines can enjoy a game with invisible aliens.
I'm a fan of SC for it's abilities- the aliens become sterotypical horror-film aliens: crawling around in dark rooms, waiting to pounce on lone marines.
As for it's role in NS- I'm not too sure it will be the chamber of choice in PCWs. To be effective, they have to be spread around the map, which makes it expensive. The chambers are also vulnerable to marine attacks (unless you plant them in a vent- which really grates me, as they are invincible unless you bother with a costly and timely siege). I guess a confident clan could opt for SC 1st- if they expect to hammer the marine team then they can afford to have a perma-gorge spitting out SCs everywhere.
However, I see it being a 50/50 split between MC (gives a better chance of lower lifeforms surviving until the 2nd hive goes active) and DC (we all know the benefits of DCs by now).
Slightly off-topic: I think this is the most balanced version of NS to date. Alien comebacks are possible now. I'm also a huge fan of free upgrades- it gives skulks the ability to wipe out ramobo marines. Finally, I believe 3.0 will see a range of tactics used- we will all have to think on our feet now! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What he means they made sc the most powerfull chamber in the game? Wasnt it always? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
SC utterly fails agaisnt offensife organisated marines, that JUST DONT SPLIT UP!
i have been in quite a few long games in 3.0 final, seems more even in the early game now with skulkies getting the free upgrades, and with sieges not damaging players aliens have a decent chance of fending of a siege attack if they work together
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What's really bad about partial cloaking is that whether you can see the alien is strongly dependent on video settings and hardware. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. A lot people have some .cfg that modify openGL settings and sometime more... That wasn't considered as hacks in the early time of HL. It was hard to get FPS rate high... but now we have hardware that can handle that easely. 100 FPS is comon. Please devs. force some parameter... thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... that JUST DONT SPLIT UP! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not always. A skulk can be real devastating. Sometime it's like a wolf surounded by chickens. More than 2 marins and you have a lot of chances to see Teamkill. And even if the skulk die another one will finish the remaining marins. Marins have to be trained on hopw to move together to avoid this (minimum distance etc...).
Now about strategy mechanics:
intro: i may have forgot some case and exeptions. But the big lines are here.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b> *** Alien side *** </b></span> Sensory if played as first chamber will be diplayed in the map: 1 close to first hive 1 near a RT between hive 1 and hive2 1 at choosen hive. That makes 3 and allow alien to travel esally to defend hive1 and push marins away from hive 2. This is a usual plan exept for second sensory chamber which can be build at a "double RT place".
-> Ensure skulk can move cloaked -> Ensure they can use focus in strategic places such as hives.
Then gorges will try to deploy a many as possible senso all around the map.
-> Ensure skulk can move cloaked more
This kind of game is static! 1 because usually there is not only one gorge who build chambers compared to DC strategy. They need it quiclky. 2 To build more senso in the map (make the front line move forward) need RTs => more gorge. High class beast don't come as soon as it would with a DC strategy.
<b>* Times *</b> + skulk evole gorge = 17sec + time to build senso = 10 sec + time to travel ~ 10sec = So approximatively 40 sec to 50 seconds.
Better say that marins have to lock both empty hives fast. Senso is a gorge game. So OCs tag along...
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b> *** Marins side *** </b></span> Knowing that, Marins have two choices:
1 lock the 2 hives ASAP. problem : which one is the first hive? Best chance is to split the team. And lock with 2 guys in hives.
2 Relocate and lock a hive. Then fight for the second. If lucky reloc is in the good hive and so alien have problem to reach the third. If not, all the game depends on which one hold the second hive.
<b>* But how can marins determine that alien chose senso?</b> They must wait 30 (40-10) sec minimum to be able to determine that. 1 Chance is on the marins side: 1 marins has spoted a gorge who is building. 30 seconds 2 Bad luck ; marins only determine that after 1.30 minutes
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b> *** Common scenario *** </b></span> Alien victorious Marins have locked hive3 and hold marins start. Hive2 will be up for alien at 9 minutes (lotta gorge at begining). Then alien comes with DC and finish it.
Marins victorious 1 or 2 Chambers spotted and destroyed early. Finally claim the second hive as marin territory and finally locking it. -If it s early is just interception of gorge and destroying some OCs. -If it's late they siege a gestating hive. Then: a) Marins are good vets. They rush the hive with 1 or 2 sieges. b) Average marins : Upgrade, upgrade : Rush HA in the 1st hive and killing the onos who say mooooo. Usually, the saving guy (onos) isn't the madskilled one at all.
This kind of games are long and boring. It is rare for alien to obtain a sudden victory with sensory.
This is boring because mostly it is fight for one hive and that's it.
And this is bad => why? -To ensure victory marins are now use to lock hive fast nowday. But they will do it systematicaly whatever the chamber is because of sensory. A little bit boring.
Locking the hives is not a colorful strategy... It was better in 1.04 on that theme. Senso is boring, MC is more funny.
mrmojo got it right. cloaking reduces the fun factor (thats what its all about isnt it? how fun the game is?) more than every other lame and not-so lame feature in the game <i>combined</i>.
Played a game for <b>team uk</b> last night versus <b>team sweden</b>. Before we even begin, it's well known that team sweden are far better than uk at the moment and uk have major problems. An example being we don't even have a commander and most of our players are stuck in World of Gaycraft.
However using sensory first chamber meant that it didn't matter really. On veil which used to be a very hard alien map, sweden barely got out of base.
We had double res with a sensory chamber at the back and one in the vent near the entrance, with the last in the hive.
Early game we picked off marines using a variety of cloaking and focus. Of course then an observatory was imminent. But what you need to consider here is how slowly scan regens for the observatory. Even getting an observatory down at the start of the game doesn't give you enough energy to get you safely to a hive or res node.
MT - well this will help to certain extent but it doesn't rack aliens indefinitely. Cloakers will still get you. Ambushes with focus skulks will still get you.
Using cloaked and focus skulks we took out 1 - 3 players from teams of 4-5 marines. The marines can't even get a rush together without us seeing it because we constantly monitored with scent of fear.
Even with welders and shotguns you WILL lose marines to skulks, not to mention focus fades. Before you say HMG, think about a realistic res scenario.
Sensory dominates early game. You cant very well send lone marines out because they'll be eaten by cloak/focus skulks.
At the MOMENT (yes i said at the moment, not indefinitely), I think we'll see a LOT of 2-2 matches. Even average teams can pull off sensory. Even without domination, you can hold nodes and get fades and we all know focus fades are dirty.
However this time I agree that we need time to adapt, let's try some new tactics and see how it goes. For now expect a lot of alien wins until marines advance a little.
Yep, players need to be patient... More than grunts; comms need to adapt countering sens... If it still looks like overpowered after a while... I prefer a solution that will make scanning easier for comms; instead of nerfing the sens...
like implementing "scan energy pool"; so that energy from multiple obs' gathered at one place and a quick scan shorcut for comm... In addition to this "scan here" impulse for grunts will help comm to jump that area quickly...
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited March 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Mar 8 2005, 06:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Mar 8 2005, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 7 2005, 06:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 7 2005, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-motsew+Mar 7 2005, 08:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (motsew @ Mar 7 2005, 08:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulks bhopping or even standard running are extremely easy to spot, crouch and look carefully and you can see a walking skulk.
Opinion .. Fila get some skills. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can see a walking skulk in 3.0F you are hacking. In 3.0F walking/nonmoving skulks are 100% cloaked, not 95% the way they used to be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the old version you were 100% wrong, you still are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps with your graphic settings skulks were "invisible" to you in b5, but this is certainly not the case for many other players, this makes it extremely irritating to now have 0% chance to spot a cloaked skulk under many circumstances where you would have previously blown them away. Not to mention the fact that cloaking reduces the skill required to play a skulk by an enormous amount.
jesus people, its not 100% cloaked. a walking/stationary skulk is still only 95% cloaked, its not impossible to see them. and since they uncloak after the first attack, theyre not overpowered. read the manual before you decide something is unfair
<!--QuoteBegin-The Spectre+Mar 8 2005, 08:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Spectre @ Mar 8 2005, 08:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What's really bad about partial cloaking is that whether you can see the alien is strongly dependent on video settings and hardware. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only this, but now a substantial portion of marine players are using 3rd party gamma tools or whatever to pick out 95% cloaked skulks from insane distances. A shame, that is
Electricity pwns sens. If you go around the map systematically getting RTs up and electrified with an Obs next to them you will win if you can prevent the second hive going up.
This IS very expensive res wise but with sens they can only take down your obs/rts with a gorge and healspray, or OCs. Both of which take a long time nad res and or players. Its best not to try to lockdown both hives, just scan them often with your many obs, and when you see one is going up, you go there under cover of scans and take it down.
This tactic starves the alien team of res and ensures a long drawn out victory.
Dangers are if you forget to scan the hives often enough, or do it too much and cannot afford to scan your team to kill it.
Also you won't have res spare for much more upgrades than A1 so if it fails and the hive goes up you have normally lost.
How about cloaking is changed to do the following: +you are 100% cloaked at all times when outside X distance of marines (distance where its close who wins in skulk vs LMG, slightly favoured to skulk). Recloaking instantly when you get outside of this distance. +attacking decloaks you for 3 seconds. +you don't appear on motion tracking while cloaked. +obs/scans decloak you as normal. +level 1/2/3 cloak are decreasing distances from a marine at which you decloak, sensory chambers nearby add +1 levels of cloaking/chamber so if you have cloak upgrade and are near a sens chamber you get an even shorter distance to the marine. 3 sens chambers nearby and level 3 cloaking would mean you decloaked at a tiny distance from them.
I think this might make cloaking more fun to play against?
In the games I have played in, I have noticed that marines are communicating better and trying to counter the new alien tactics. Motion tracking allows the team to see the aliens coming and from which direction. Just look at your map and watch the little red dots. When the red dots go over to one side of the map where your teammate is knifing a RT, you can take a nice walk to the other side of the map where you know there are no aliens, build an RT, Phase.
I actually prefer going up against a cloaked alien sometimes when I have motion tracking as they tend to move slower=easier to aim at. Its just the players that will stay still and wait for a long time that make things difficult.
The new abilities have taken some power away from the "Rambo" marine and put it in the hands of the entire team. Teamwork and Communication FTW. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sizer+Mar 8 2005, 03:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sizer @ Mar 8 2005, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-The Spectre+Mar 8 2005, 08:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Spectre @ Mar 8 2005, 08:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What's really bad about partial cloaking is that whether you can see the alien is strongly dependent on video settings and hardware. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only this, but now a substantial portion of marine players are using 3rd party gamma tools or whatever to pick out 95% cloaked skulks from insane distances. A shame, that is <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks are now cloaked 100% if they are standing still. It's not as much of a problem.
It is not 100%. The following is fact. If I turn my gamma up high enough, there they are. If a Lerk spores them, there they are. If they walk through water or fog (Comp Core, for example) there they are.
Fighting an enemy you can’t even see creates frustration and anger, not atmosphere, and least of all fun. Cloaking changes the game from aim and shoot to either, squinting your eyes, hoping that you’ll even find a skulk model to aim for, or craving for the commander to perform a scanner-sweep. I would be playing Magic Eye and Where’s Waldo if I wanted to play a game in which concentrating on the screen is considered a skill. This leaves scanner-sweep and the observatory as the only counters to cloaking. This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.
The difficult part of sensory is the fact that aliens also get focus. This means in order to survive as marines not only do you probably have to drop a 2nd obs but you also have to upgrade armor and keep your team in welders. Marines have to invest in WAY too much tech in diffrent areas just to survive early game sensory. Let's not even mention what happens once focus fades come out. The game just becomes a boring war of attrition while fades blink in and out swiping until you finnaly stop welding and they one hit kill you. Seriously sense chambers give you invisability, wall-hacks, and one hit kills. All three of these together are a little too much. In my opionion focus needs to go or at least be changed so marines arn't forced to get such a wide range of tech to stay alive.
<!--QuoteBegin-El Pollo Loco+Mar 8 2005, 08:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (El Pollo Loco @ Mar 8 2005, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difficult part of sensory is the fact that aliens also get focus. This means in order to survive as marines not only do you probably have to drop a 2nd obs but you also have to upgrade armor and keep your team in welders. Marines have to invest in WAY too much tech in diffrent areas just to survive early game sensory. Let's not even mention what happens once focus fades come out. The game just becomes a boring war of attrition while fades blink in and out swiping until you finnaly stop welding and they one hit kill you. Seriously sense chambers give you invisability, wall-hacks, and one hit kills. All three of these together are a little too much. In my opionion focus needs to go or at least be changed so marines arn't forced to get such a wide range of tech to stay alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He speaks the truth.
1. comms who never get arms lab until 5:00 wont be winning anymore 2. comms who dont have ha/jp the entire game wont win anymore 3. comms who only shotgun rushed wont win 'every'game anymore.
aliens who use strategy will finnaly win, skill of fades is < then strategy
<!--QuoteBegin-heycheckitoutyo2+Mar 8 2005, 06:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heycheckitoutyo2 @ Mar 8 2005, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fighting an enemy you can’t even see creates frustration and anger, not atmosphere, and least of all fun. Cloaking changes the game from aim and shoot to either, squinting your eyes, hoping that you’ll even find a skulk model to aim for, or craving for the commander to perform a scanner-sweep. I would be playing Magic Eye and Where’s Waldo if I wanted to play a game in which concentrating on the screen is considered a skill. This leaves scanner-sweep and the observatory as the only counters to cloaking. This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just to emphasize: <i>the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent</i>
By your own admission, we can see what the problem is, so the solution, I'm afraid, is quite apparant: Get skilled commanders.
Marines, and especially commanders, have had it far too easy for far too long. In b5 it had gotten to the point where the commander served the team more as a glorified resupply upgrade than anything else.
Now things have shifted back into (what I think is) their proper place, with the team having to rely on the commander. There's going to be a period of adjustment until good commanders get back into the scene. During that period, yes, marines are probably going to hurt.
Now you are correct in that cloaking does change the game from aim and shoot. It changes it to "cover your team-mate". If you feel it's more fun not playing as part of a team, fair enough, but I think part of underlying thought of NS is that it's a team-reliance game. Work on your own and you will lose. If you don't like that, perhaps NS isn't for you.
It's hard to cover your teammate from an alien that neither of you can see, that comes up behind you both, and that drops one of you before the other has a chance to even turn around. The players that you are telling to do this are very skilled players and I'd trust either of them to cover me before I trusted you to, but with new cloaking I don't think even they would stand a chance.
I also wish people would stop saying cloaking is 100% when standing still/walking because IT ISN'T TRUE.
i dont see cloaking as a problem, if there walking towards me 90% of the time i can see them, and it only takes a shot to unlcloak them.
and if i get killed by a skulk that stood still and ambushed me, then well played to that skulk, it did what its designed to do <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and yeah sc can be quite powerfull, giving the wallhack cloaking and focus if your in its radious, but then MT is very powerfull aswell, cloaking and silence are useless once its in action.
<!--QuoteBegin-El Pollo Loco+Mar 8 2005, 08:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (El Pollo Loco @ Mar 8 2005, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difficult part of sensory is the fact that aliens also get focus. This means in order to survive as marines not only do you probably have to drop a 2nd obs but you also have to upgrade armor and keep your team in welders. Marines have to invest in WAY too much tech in diffrent areas just to survive early game sensory. Let's not even mention what happens once focus fades come out. The game just becomes a boring war of attrition while fades blink in and out swiping until you finnaly stop welding and they one hit kill you. Seriously sense chambers give you invisability, wall-hacks, and one hit kills. All three of these together are a little too much. In my opionion focus needs to go or at least be changed so marines arn't forced to get such a wide range of tech to stay alive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The biggest point that pollo is making is that sc's force the marines to stretch to thin in terms of tech. You need armor 1, you need an obs for scans, you need good use of welders. Without any one of these things, marines can't handle early skulks. The way marines start now, you have to delay either armor 1 or the obs for too long. If you do a1 first, by the time you get an obs you need it to research pg's
Now if you get those things, MAYBE you can get some nodes down. MAYBE you can get ONE down. But the reality is that you are going to be fighting focus fades. And you're going to have to kill a second hive. This fact alone was never garunteed with b5 dc's. It is a garunteed fact in b6. Because the sc's make the skulks powerful enough that the rines can' take down enough rt's in enough time.
So in the 2nd hive situation is where aliens are sealing the deal. With Sc's first you can't shotty rush the second hive because the sc's will see you coming. If you take the time to seige it, The focus fades combined with the lerk will make sure you're slowed down enough that the second hive is going up.
Once the second hive is up, you're not going to fight the alien team without a serious heavy train. And than you gotta be pro.
But in order to have heavies when the second hive goes up at 7ish minutes, you have to have advanced the armory right out of the gate. And when you factor an AA into the start of the game, either your a1 or your obs is going to be delayed that much more.
<b><span style='color:red'>MARINES CAN NOT BUY WHAT THEY NEED IN THE TIME THEY NEED TO BUY IT TO FIGHT SC'S. </b></span>
But I don't think the answer is to nerf sc's. If you gave the marines 5 extra base armor. Then a parasite and either a focus bite or two regular bites would kill a rine. Start the obs with 100 energy so that it can scan a decent amount of times off the bat. Make welders an upgrade in the armory, that gives each rine a welder automatically. Have turrets do more damage so that a one hive focus fade has more trouble cracking a hive lock, which i feel will make a comeback. There are some quick ways to give little buffs to the marines that can give them a hope of not being slaughtered by sc's.
Edit: and you can forget all hopes of beating a semi competant sc team in a pub.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fila+Mar 8 2005, 01:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fila @ Mar 8 2005, 01:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1.04, people were satisfied but anxious for new builds. Now your game blows and people are anxious for new builds. What is better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lolololololol
I guess im one of the few persons that keeps his gamma really low to make the game more cool and realistic instead of all people how set their gamme at 50.000 or something which makes the game look horrible, I also recently downloaded this cool video from so called "pro-players" well they must have used some special programs because all lightning effects were gone and game looked fullbright. I also noticed people shooting me while i was cloaked from impossible distances. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It is easier to spot cloacked aliens from far away... Because of the texture filtering, textures at that distance become so blurry that you can easily distinguish the sharp edges of a cloacked alien... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-tuintje+Mar 10 2005, 02:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tuintje @ Mar 10 2005, 02:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess im one of the few persons that keeps his gamma really low to make the game more cool and realistic instead of all people how set their gamme at 50.000 or something which makes the game look horrible, I also recently downloaded this cool video from so called "pro-players" <b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>well they must have used some special programs</b></span> because all lightning effects were gone and game looked fullbright. I also noticed people shooting me while i was cloaked from impossible distances. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 10 2005, 07:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 10 2005, 07:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tuintje+Mar 10 2005, 02:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tuintje @ Mar 10 2005, 02:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess im one of the few persons that keeps his gamma really low to make the game more cool and realistic instead of all people how set their gamme at 50.000 or something which makes the game look horrible, I also recently downloaded this cool video from so called "pro-players" <b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>well they must have used some special programs</b></span> because all lightning effects were gone and game looked fullbright. I also noticed people shooting me while i was cloaked from impossible distances. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> naughty...
Comments
im not even that good as rine, but i can EASILY see 90% cloaked skulks walking towords me, and skulks that are running or even bunnhoping are just as easy to spot as none cloaked aliens.
and all it takes is one shot and then the skulk is completly visable again, and they have to wait 3 seconds to re-cloak.
i think if the alien uses an attack, he should uncloak and have to wait for 3 seconds.
but if the alien is just shot, it recloaks in 0.5 seconds, so the marine has to keep shooting it to keep it uncloaked
It's not fun not being able to see your enemies and not being able to do anything about them. I don't see how marines can enjoy a game with invisible aliens.
As for it's role in NS- I'm not too sure it will be the chamber of choice in PCWs. To be effective, they have to be spread around the map, which makes it expensive. The chambers are also vulnerable to marine attacks (unless you plant them in a vent- which really grates me, as they are invincible unless you bother with a costly and timely siege). I guess a confident clan could opt for SC 1st- if they expect to hammer the marine team then they can afford to have a perma-gorge spitting out SCs everywhere.
However, I see it being a 50/50 split between MC (gives a better chance of lower lifeforms surviving until the 2nd hive goes active) and DC (we all know the benefits of DCs by now).
Slightly off-topic: I think this is the most balanced version of NS to date. Alien comebacks are possible now. I'm also a huge fan of free upgrades- it gives skulks the ability to wipe out ramobo marines. Finally, I believe 3.0 will see a range of tactics used- we will all have to think on our feet now! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wasnt it always? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
SC utterly fails agaisnt offensife organisated marines, that JUST DONT SPLIT UP!
Agreed. A lot people have some .cfg that modify openGL settings and sometime more... That wasn't considered as hacks in the early time of HL. It was hard to get FPS rate high... but now we have hardware that can handle that easely. 100 FPS is comon. Please devs. force some parameter... thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... that JUST DONT SPLIT UP! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not always. A skulk can be real devastating. Sometime it's like a wolf surounded by chickens. More than 2 marins and you have a lot of chances to see Teamkill. And even if the skulk die another one will finish the remaining marins. Marins have to be trained on hopw to move together to avoid this (minimum distance etc...).
Now about strategy mechanics:
intro: i may have forgot some case and exeptions. But the big lines are here.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b> *** Alien side *** </b></span>
Sensory if played as first chamber will be diplayed in the map:
1 close to first hive
1 near a RT between hive 1 and hive2
1 at choosen hive.
That makes 3 and allow alien to travel esally to defend hive1 and push marins away from hive 2. This is a usual plan exept for second sensory chamber which can be build at a "double RT place".
-> Ensure skulk can move cloaked
-> Ensure they can use focus in strategic places such as hives.
Then gorges will try to deploy a many as possible senso all around the map.
-> Ensure skulk can move cloaked more
This kind of game is static!
1 because usually there is not only one gorge who build chambers compared to DC strategy. They need it quiclky.
2 To build more senso in the map (make the front line move forward) need RTs => more gorge.
High class beast don't come as soon as it would with a DC strategy.
<b>* Times *</b>
+ skulk evole gorge = 17sec
+ time to build senso = 10 sec
+ time to travel ~ 10sec
= So approximatively 40 sec to 50 seconds.
Better say that marins have to lock both empty hives fast.
Senso is a gorge game. So OCs tag along...
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b> *** Marins side *** </b></span>
Knowing that, Marins have two choices:
1 lock the 2 hives ASAP.
problem : which one is the first hive?
Best chance is to split the team. And lock with 2 guys in hives.
2 Relocate and lock a hive. Then fight for the second.
If lucky reloc is in the good hive and so alien have problem to reach the third.
If not, all the game depends on which one hold the second hive.
<b>* But how can marins determine that alien chose senso?</b>
They must wait 30 (40-10) sec minimum to be able to determine that.
1 Chance is on the marins side: 1 marins has spoted a gorge who is building. 30 seconds
2 Bad luck ; marins only determine that after 1.30 minutes
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b> *** Common scenario *** </b></span>
Alien victorious
Marins have locked hive3 and hold marins start.
Hive2 will be up for alien at 9 minutes (lotta gorge at begining).
Then alien comes with DC and finish it.
Marins victorious
1 or 2 Chambers spotted and destroyed early.
Finally claim the second hive as marin territory and finally locking it.
-If it s early is just interception of gorge and destroying some OCs.
-If it's late they siege a gestating hive.
Then:
a) Marins are good vets. They rush the hive with 1 or 2 sieges.
b) Average marins : Upgrade, upgrade : Rush HA in the 1st hive and killing the onos who say mooooo. Usually, the saving guy (onos) isn't the madskilled one at all.
This kind of games are long and boring. It is rare for alien to obtain a sudden victory with sensory.
This is boring because mostly it is fight for one hive and that's it.
And this is bad => why?
-To ensure victory marins are now use to lock hive fast nowday. But they will do it systematicaly whatever the chamber is because of sensory. A little bit boring.
Locking the hives is not a colorful strategy...
It was better in 1.04 on that theme. Senso is boring, MC is more funny.
Played a game for <b>team uk</b> last night versus <b>team sweden</b>. Before we even begin, it's well known that team sweden are far better than uk at the moment and uk have major problems. An example being we don't even have a commander and most of our players are stuck in World of Gaycraft.
However using sensory first chamber meant that it didn't matter really. On veil which used to be a very hard alien map, sweden barely got out of base.
We had double res with a sensory chamber at the back and one in the vent near the entrance, with the last in the hive.
Early game we picked off marines using a variety of cloaking and focus. Of course then an observatory was imminent. But what you need to consider here is how slowly scan regens for the observatory. Even getting an observatory down at the start of the game doesn't give you enough energy to get you safely to a hive or res node.
MT - well this will help to certain extent but it doesn't rack aliens indefinitely. Cloakers will still get you. Ambushes with focus skulks will still get you.
Using cloaked and focus skulks we took out 1 - 3 players from teams of 4-5 marines. The marines can't even get a rush together without us seeing it because we constantly monitored with scent of fear.
Even with welders and shotguns you WILL lose marines to skulks, not to mention focus fades. Before you say HMG, think about a realistic res scenario.
Sensory dominates early game. You cant very well send lone marines out because they'll be eaten by cloak/focus skulks.
At the MOMENT (yes i said at the moment, not indefinitely), I think we'll see a LOT of 2-2 matches. Even average teams can pull off sensory. Even without domination, you can hold nodes and get fades and we all know focus fades are dirty.
However this time I agree that we need time to adapt, let's try some new tactics and see how it goes. For now expect a lot of alien wins until marines advance a little.
like implementing "scan energy pool"; so that energy from multiple obs' gathered at one place and a quick scan shorcut for comm... In addition to this "scan here" impulse for grunts will help comm to jump that area quickly...
Opinion .. Fila get some skills. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can see a walking skulk in 3.0F you are hacking. In 3.0F walking/nonmoving skulks are 100% cloaked, not 95% the way they used to be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the old version you were 100% wrong, you still are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps with your graphic settings skulks were "invisible" to you in b5, but this is certainly not the case for many other players, this makes it extremely irritating to now have 0% chance to spot a cloaked skulk under many circumstances where you would have previously blown them away. Not to mention the fact that cloaking reduces the skill required to play a skulk by an enormous amount.
Not only this, but now a substantial portion of marine players are using 3rd party gamma tools or whatever to pick out 95% cloaked skulks from insane distances. A shame, that is
This IS very expensive res wise but with sens they can only take down your obs/rts with a gorge and healspray, or OCs. Both of which take a long time nad res and or players. Its best not to try to lockdown both hives, just scan them often with your many obs, and when you see one is going up, you go there under cover of scans and take it down.
This tactic starves the alien team of res and ensures a long drawn out victory.
Dangers are if you forget to scan the hives often enough, or do it too much and cannot afford to scan your team to kill it.
Also you won't have res spare for much more upgrades than A1 so if it fails and the hive goes up you have normally lost.
How about cloaking is changed to do the following:
+you are 100% cloaked at all times when outside X distance of marines (distance where its close who wins in skulk vs LMG, slightly favoured to skulk). Recloaking instantly when you get outside of this distance.
+attacking decloaks you for 3 seconds.
+you don't appear on motion tracking while cloaked.
+obs/scans decloak you as normal.
+level 1/2/3 cloak are decreasing distances from a marine at which you decloak, sensory chambers nearby add +1 levels of cloaking/chamber so if you have cloak upgrade and are near a sens chamber you get an even shorter distance to the marine. 3 sens chambers nearby and level 3 cloaking would mean you decloaked at a tiny distance from them.
I think this might make cloaking more fun to play against?
Motion tracking allows the team to see the aliens coming and from which direction. Just look at your map and watch the little red dots. When the red dots go over to one side of the map where your teammate is knifing a RT, you can take a nice walk to the other side of the map where you know there are no aliens, build an RT, Phase.
I actually prefer going up against a cloaked alien sometimes when I have motion tracking as they tend to move slower=easier to aim at. Its just the players that will stay still and wait for a long time that make things difficult.
The new abilities have taken some power away from the "Rambo" marine and put it in the hands of the entire team. Teamwork and Communication FTW.
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not only this, but now a substantial portion of marine players are using 3rd party gamma tools or whatever to pick out 95% cloaked skulks from insane distances. A shame, that is <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks are now cloaked 100% if they are standing still. It's not as much of a problem.
If I turn my gamma up high enough, there they are.
If a Lerk spores them, there they are.
If they walk through water or fog (Comp Core, for example) there they are.
I will get screenshots and pwnzor you ALL.
This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.
Regards,
HEYCHECKITOUTYO2
He speaks the truth.
1. comms who never get arms lab until 5:00 wont be winning anymore
2. comms who dont have ha/jp the entire game wont win anymore
3. comms who only shotgun rushed wont win 'every'game anymore.
aliens who use strategy will finnaly win, skill of fades is < then strategy
This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to emphasize: <i>the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent</i>
By your own admission, we can see what the problem is, so the solution, I'm afraid, is quite apparant: Get skilled commanders.
Marines, and especially commanders, have had it far too easy for far too long. In b5 it had gotten to the point where the commander served the team more as a glorified resupply upgrade than anything else.
Now things have shifted back into (what I think is) their proper place, with the team having to rely on the commander. There's going to be a period of adjustment until good commanders get back into the scene. During that period, yes, marines are probably going to hurt.
Now you are correct in that cloaking does change the game from aim and shoot. It changes it to "cover your team-mate". If you feel it's more fun not playing as part of a team, fair enough, but I think part of underlying thought of NS is that it's a team-reliance game. Work on your own and you will lose. If you don't like that, perhaps NS isn't for you.
I also wish people would stop saying cloaking is 100% when standing still/walking because IT ISN'T TRUE.
and if i get killed by a skulk that stood still and ambushed me, then well played to that skulk, it did what its designed to do <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and yeah sc can be quite powerfull, giving the wallhack cloaking and focus if your in its radious, but then MT is very powerfull aswell, cloaking and silence are useless once its in action.
The biggest point that pollo is making is that sc's force the marines to stretch to thin in terms of tech. You need armor 1, you need an obs for scans, you need good use of welders. Without any one of these things, marines can't handle early skulks. The way marines start now, you have to delay either armor 1 or the obs for too long. If you do a1 first, by the time you get an obs you need it to research pg's
Now if you get those things, MAYBE you can get some nodes down. MAYBE you can get ONE down. But the reality is that you are going to be fighting focus fades. And you're going to have to kill a second hive. This fact alone was never garunteed with b5 dc's. It is a garunteed fact in b6. Because the sc's make the skulks powerful enough that the rines can' take down enough rt's in enough time.
So in the 2nd hive situation is where aliens are sealing the deal. With Sc's first you can't shotty rush the second hive because the sc's will see you coming. If you take the time to seige it, The focus fades combined with the lerk will make sure you're slowed down enough that the second hive is going up.
Once the second hive is up, you're not going to fight the alien team without a serious heavy train. And than you gotta be pro.
But in order to have heavies when the second hive goes up at 7ish minutes, you have to have advanced the armory right out of the gate. And when you factor an AA into the start of the game, either your a1 or your obs is going to be delayed that much more.
<b><span style='color:red'>MARINES CAN NOT BUY WHAT THEY NEED IN THE TIME THEY NEED TO BUY IT TO FIGHT SC'S. </b></span>
But I don't think the answer is to nerf sc's. If you gave the marines 5 extra base armor. Then a parasite and either a focus bite or two regular bites would kill a rine. Start the obs with 100 energy so that it can scan a decent amount of times off the bat. Make welders an upgrade in the armory, that gives each rine a welder automatically. Have turrets do more damage so that a one hive focus fade has more trouble cracking a hive lock, which i feel will make a comeback. There are some quick ways to give little buffs to the marines that can give them a hope of not being slaughtered by sc's.
Edit: and you can forget all hopes of beating a semi competant sc team in a pub.
lolololololol
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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naughty...